I cannot possibly perceive New Guidance as anything but S-Tier and Old Guidance as anything but C-Tier.
Old Guidance was stronger since it could be used more times a day, new Guidance uses reactions and limited to once a day but isn't concentration. So... yeah. They are both good but one of them was so broken it was literally abused to the nth degree and the reason it got changed.
The target only being able to benefit once per long rest is a pretty serious nerf, though it's one I'm, 100% in favor of.
I guess? But it went from being a spell you use on someone when you're trying to do Strength checks to open doors, to something you can use exactly when it's needed, exactly how it's needed, instantly. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Wish I gave you Guidance first". It can now be used so much more versatiley, and will be a spell you cast X number of times a Long Rest, where X = people you meet that you like.
The nice thing about new Guidance is that the timing works better with how the game flows at the table. There's less of the DM calling for a check only to have the caster try to rewind time to cast it because they didn't know a check was coming (or else specifying that they're casting it every single minute to keep the buff ready). Only once per long rest does feel harsh, though. I would've gone for once per short rest.
I have not yet performed a study of the UA but I did a quick search; and I'm actually very happy with them making the search/study skills distinctions with much clearer guidelines, and integration into action economy when they're used in combat. I would have called study hmmm but that's my personal preference. Agree "defender" in terms of mechanics doesn't strike me as particularly Paladin, without some feats or fighting styles, in 5e they seem more "a good defense is a smiting offense" than strict defenders, so curious how the Paladin may be reworked. My preference would be the Paladin performing as it currently does and the Druid (what's defensive about Wildshape?) and retitle the Priest (Devout?) something else with a descriptor saying they're powers are divined or brought through a faith dynamic or whatever.
I think you are not putting enough emphasis on the effectively part. It is not sight based but it allows people with it to target people with spells and other things that say it requires you see them.
It's literally called blindsight. In terms of my original question, does it fully circumvent the invisible condition? I ask because the definition of the condition itself makes no provisions for what happens when something circumvents it. If we fall back on idiomatic English, the condition starts with "while you are invisible" so we could assume that you are not invisible to someone who has the blindsight ability. Then again, as long as the condition is active, the condition itself says that you can't be seen and therefore the properties of the condition apply. Since invisibility is (currently) the only relative condition, I feel this needs extra wording to clarify the interaction. Compare this with what they did to the long rest definition from last month's document to this one. I have high hopes we will get this settled in upcoming playtest documents.
EDIT: compare this with the new definition of tremorsense, which explicitly says it is not a form of sight.
you said you wanted to stop the derailment, I have already given you the answer, the fact you disagree with it is irrelevant. Blindsight and invisibility is a case of specific (blindsight) beating general (invisible), blindsight specifies what it does in the interaction with invisibility. Or are you arguing that the "See Invisibility" spell can not see invisible creatures too? Since that too specifies the interaction, it sees invisible creatures. Specific beats general.
Tremorsense is not sight, you can not use it for abilities or spells that require line of sight, blindsight is sight in that it gives you line of sight but it is not sight as in physical sight, it specifically says it is not physical sight.
Basically agreeing with the last post. All I see, so to speak, in the objection is not acknowledging that blindsight is a paradoxical term making the "sight" half literally impossible but instead effectively impossible. Blindsight is an exception to invisibility's power allowing the entity with blindsight to "effectively" see the target. So the blindseer is not literally seeing anything with their visual, even if they are sighted, but through a mechanism (which can be pretty fairly open-ended, 6th sense, ultrasonic echolocation, LIDAR, whatever) that negates the invisibllity for the blindseer. That's pretty standard and best practice rule wording in the UA and thought it was one of the more well done parts of the UA.
Old Guidance was stronger since it could be used more times a day, new Guidance uses reactions and limited to once a day but isn't concentration. So... yeah. They are both good but one of them was so broken it was literally abused to the nth degree and the reason it got changed.
Man, the effect of "Different Tables Different Styles" I guess, but at my tables, Guidance was always a spell that was exhausting for anyone to want to use, and only ever, ever benefitted the party in non-critical moments, and only sometimes. Now it's useful IN critical moments, *always* (well, once per person). I guess my table never saw the 'abuse' and only saw the 'god this is boring' and 'oops forgot to give it to you'. So this seems strictly Buff to me...
But yeah, I guess if your table had a guy who ALWAYS interrupted everyone to cast Guidance, this is a nerf. Fair enough.
limiting a cantrip to once per long rest makes me think they should just get rid of it. its written more like a feature than a spell now. i am the person that uses guidance on initiative so they were trying to nerf my playstyle specifically.
limiting a cantrip to once per long rest makes me think they should just get rid of it. its written more like a feature than a spell now. i am the person that uses guidance on initiative so they were trying to nerf my playstyle specifically.
How can you use Guidance on Initiative except by pure accident? Were you literally casting Guidance every minute?
limiting a cantrip to once per long rest makes me think they should just get rid of it. its written more like a feature than a spell now. i am the person that uses guidance on initiative so they were trying to nerf my playstyle specifically.
How can you use Guidance on Initiative except by pure accident? Were you literally casting Guidance every minute?
There's literally no reason not to, aside from the fact that it's annoying and dumb, which is a small price to pay for permanent +1d4 to all ability checks.
Old Guidance was stronger since it could be used more times a day, new Guidance uses reactions and limited to once a day but isn't concentration. So... yeah. They are both good but one of them was so broken it was literally abused to the nth degree and the reason it got changed.
Man, the effect of "Different Tables Different Styles" I guess, but at my tables, Guidance was always a spell that was exhausting for anyone to want to use, and only ever, ever benefitted the party in non-critical moments, and only sometimes. Now it's useful IN critical moments, *always* (well, once per person). I guess my table never saw the 'abuse' and only saw the 'god this is boring' and 'oops forgot to give it to you'. So this seems strictly Buff to me...
But yeah, I guess if your table had a guy who ALWAYS interrupted everyone to cast Guidance, this is a nerf. Fair enough.
It was more the other way around that people asked for guidance and got to the point it just gets defacto added sometimes by people that add it to streamline the RP. Which is basically what Jeremy Crawford talked about in the ranger video regarding guidance. Some tables went so far that everybody just added a D4 to all ability checks when one character has guidance (even if it gets to the point of not working as it's allowed, the tables streamline it in...).
limiting a cantrip to once per long rest makes me think they should just get rid of it. its written more like a feature than a spell now. i am the person that uses guidance on initiative so they were trying to nerf my playstyle specifically.
How can you use Guidance on Initiative except by pure accident? Were you literally casting Guidance every minute?
There's literally no reason not to, aside from the fact that it's annoying and dumb, which is a small price to pay for permanent +1d4 to all ability checks.
...gosh, I need to up my minmax optimizer mindset. That's so annoying and dumb. I am glad that's been fixed.
Old Guidance was stronger since it could be used more times a day, new Guidance uses reactions and limited to once a day but isn't concentration. So... yeah. They are both good but one of them was so broken it was literally abused to the nth degree and the reason it got changed.
Man, the effect of "Different Tables Different Styles" I guess, but at my tables, Guidance was always a spell that was exhausting for anyone to want to use, and only ever, ever benefitted the party in non-critical moments, and only sometimes. Now it's useful IN critical moments, *always* (well, once per person). I guess my table never saw the 'abuse' and only saw the 'god this is boring' and 'oops forgot to give it to you'. So this seems strictly Buff to me...
But yeah, I guess if your table had a guy who ALWAYS interrupted everyone to cast Guidance, this is a nerf. Fair enough.
It was more the other way around that people asked for guidance and got to the point it just gets defacto added sometimes by people that add it to streamline the RP. Which is basically what Jeremy Crawford talked about in the ranger video regarding guidance. Some tables went so far that everybody just added a D4 to all ability checks when one character has guidance (even if it gets to the point of not working as it's allowed, the tables streamline it in...).
I am just being rocked by the bounds to which people suspend disbelief for mechanical benefit, and I am the guy at every table I've played at where people go "Okay, that build seems like bull$#@!". I'm only growing more enthusiastic for Guidance being changed. Spells should feel like magic, not procedurally dismissed background.
only buff (outside subclass) i see is hunters mark and light weapons, everything else is a nerf. most painful is guidance, bardic inspiration, evasion coming two levels later, sharpshooter, great weapon fighting and stealth/hide in general. i understand nerfing casters (bard list is a joke), but nerfing martials was unneeded when they have so few avenues of boosting damage.
if we are going from the last round of crit rules, it looks like sneak dice won't crit, but its not clear if they threw those modifications out.
the focus on high levels seem to come at the cost of where most campaigns live, levels 3 to 8. for example, the bardic inspiration number of times and evasion at later level.
the ranger losing all their flavor abilities is painful, but they got the biggest buff of one dnd so far from what i can tell.
study, search actions are unneeded relics of 3.5 imo. next will be listen and spot instead of perception.
notes:
exhaustion is more boring now... but it is also less annoying... not sure how i feel about it. i like it as a player that doesnt like exhaustion, but from a game design perspective, it is less flavorful.
grapple changes are nice, more stuff going on during combat, but can get annoying high number of players/grapplers... and with grappler feat change, there might be more grapplers.
inspiration on a 1 is lame imo. dont know why people like it. it is antithetical to what a low roll is. it made more sense on a 20, but thats like adding a hat to a hat. i understand the desitre to include this mechanic, but maybe is should just be when someone misses an AC or DC by 1. it is still a 5% chance and seems like a more sound approach.
jump as an action seems kind of lame, intermediate dex checks make more sense. or at least a bonus action.
would have been nice if grapple dc was based on original contested stats instead of strength only, but its pretty cool for unarmed people.
How on Earth is Guidance a nerf?
Old Guidance:
New guidance: I cannot possibly perceive New Guidance as anything but S-Tier and Old Guidance as anything but C-Tier.
How can you possibly see one of the most abused spells in the game as “C-Tier?!?” Before it was spammed so much that Spam felt bad. This new version is such a nerf it’s gonna make Nerf feel bad.
How can you possibly see one of the most abused spells in the game as “C-Tier?!?” Before it was spammed so much that Spam felt bad. This new version is such a nerf it’s gonna make Nerf feel bad.
As stated elsewhere, I guess I play in a weird bubble for the last 15 years or however long 5E/Next has existed, where Guidance was an afterthought, and not a default mega-abuse instant-win button. Given all that, I guess this IS a nerf, for sure!
I am just being rocked by the bounds to which people suspend disbelief for mechanical benefit, and I am the guy at every table I've played at where people go "Okay, that build seems like bull$#@!". I'm only growing more enthusiastic for Guidance being changed. Spells should feel like magic, not procedurally dismissed background.
Just to note, the table I play at didn't get that bad, I was just noting it from the Ranger video but it still gets abused, some people whom have the cantrip themselves just randomly roll an extra D4 when they feel like it without noting guidance but we all know it's guidance and those that don't just sometimes ask for it, like if everybody needs to jump across a gap as one example.
It's all a problem of timing bumping up against the arbitrariness of when an action becomes a check and whether the character knows that's going to happen. If the Rogue is about to pick a lock or disarm a trap, it makes sense to use Guidance on them. Knowledge check to recall information? Say a little prayer before you search your memory to see what you remember. But when you're in the flow of the narrative, you don't always think about which things your character is doing might turn out to be Check-Worthy (TM), so you agree that your character is maintaining Guidance on someone, just like you agree that the Rogue is generally keeping an eye out for traps and will check each door before you attempt to open it.
New Guidance solves that issue by making it a reaction, but the once per long rest stipulation means you can "waste" your cantrip by using it and having the 1d4 fail to bring failure to success, so now you're trying to game whether this roll right now is the one roll important enough to blow your cantrip on for the day.
It's all a problem of timing bumping up against the arbitrariness of when an action becomes a check and whether the character knows that's going to happen. If the Rogue is about to pick a lock or disarm a trap, it makes sense to use Guidance on them. Knowledge check to recall information? Say a little prayer before you search your memory to see what you remember. But when you're in the flow of the narrative, you don't always think about which things your character is doing might turn out to be Check-Worthy (TM), so you agree that your character is maintaining Guidance on someone, just like you agree that the Rogue is generally keeping an eye out for traps and will check each door before you attempt to open it.
New Guidance solves that issue by making it a reaction, but the once per long rest stipulation means you can "waste" your cantrip by using it and having the 1d4 fail to bring failure to success, so now you're trying to game whether this roll right now is the one roll important enough to blow your cantrip on for the day.
For the day, per character, to be fair. So it's "is THIS the trap to worry about?" and "is THIS the jump to worry about?" and "is THIS the knowledge check to worry about?". So it's not so bad as "blow the cantrip for the day" at least.
Cantrips with limited uses per day defeats the purpose of being a cantrip. If it's too good to allow it to be used freely, it should be a leveled spell. If it's not good enough to be a leveled spell, then it either needs to be completely rethought, or eliminated.
How can you possibly see one of the most abused spells in the game as “C-Tier?!?” Before it was spammed so much that Spam felt bad. This new version is such a nerf it’s gonna make Nerf feel bad.
As stated elsewhere, I guess I play in a weird bubble for the last 15 years or however long 5E/Next has existed, where Guidance was an afterthought, and not a default mega-abuse instant-win button. Given all that, I guess this IS a nerf, for sure!
You mean, whoever took Guidance didn’t think to use it every time the DM called for a check? How come?
The target only being able to benefit once per long rest is a pretty serious nerf, though it's one I'm, 100% in favor of.
Old Guidance was stronger since it could be used more times a day, new Guidance uses reactions and limited to once a day but isn't concentration. So... yeah. They are both good but one of them was so broken it was literally abused to the nth degree and the reason it got changed.
I guess? But it went from being a spell you use on someone when you're trying to do Strength checks to open doors, to something you can use exactly when it's needed, exactly how it's needed, instantly. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Wish I gave you Guidance first". It can now be used so much more versatiley, and will be a spell you cast X number of times a Long Rest, where X = people you meet that you like.
The nice thing about new Guidance is that the timing works better with how the game flows at the table. There's less of the DM calling for a check only to have the caster try to rewind time to cast it because they didn't know a check was coming (or else specifying that they're casting it every single minute to keep the buff ready). Only once per long rest does feel harsh, though. I would've gone for once per short rest.
Basically agreeing with the last post. All I see, so to speak, in the objection is not acknowledging that blindsight is a paradoxical term making the "sight" half literally impossible but instead effectively impossible. Blindsight is an exception to invisibility's power allowing the entity with blindsight to "effectively" see the target. So the blindseer is not literally seeing anything with their visual, even if they are sighted, but through a mechanism (which can be pretty fairly open-ended, 6th sense, ultrasonic echolocation, LIDAR, whatever) that negates the invisibllity for the blindseer. That's pretty standard and best practice rule wording in the UA and thought it was one of the more well done parts of the UA.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Man, the effect of "Different Tables Different Styles" I guess, but at my tables, Guidance was always a spell that was exhausting for anyone to want to use, and only ever, ever benefitted the party in non-critical moments, and only sometimes. Now it's useful IN critical moments, *always* (well, once per person). I guess my table never saw the 'abuse' and only saw the 'god this is boring' and 'oops forgot to give it to you'. So this seems strictly Buff to me...
But yeah, I guess if your table had a guy who ALWAYS interrupted everyone to cast Guidance, this is a nerf. Fair enough.
limiting a cantrip to once per long rest makes me think they should just get rid of it. its written more like a feature than a spell now. i am the person that uses guidance on initiative so they were trying to nerf my playstyle specifically.
How can you use Guidance on Initiative except by pure accident? Were you literally casting Guidance every minute?
There's literally no reason not to, aside from the fact that it's annoying and dumb, which is a small price to pay for permanent +1d4 to all ability checks.
It was more the other way around that people asked for guidance and got to the point it just gets defacto added sometimes by people that add it to streamline the RP. Which is basically what Jeremy Crawford talked about in the ranger video regarding guidance. Some tables went so far that everybody just added a D4 to all ability checks when one character has guidance (even if it gets to the point of not working as it's allowed, the tables streamline it in...).
...gosh, I need to up my minmax optimizer mindset. That's so annoying and dumb. I am glad that's been fixed.
I am just being rocked by the bounds to which people suspend disbelief for mechanical benefit, and I am the guy at every table I've played at where people go "Okay, that build seems like bull$#@!". I'm only growing more enthusiastic for Guidance being changed. Spells should feel like magic, not procedurally dismissed background.
Well, better quantity at any rate.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
How can you possibly see one of the most abused spells in the game as “C-Tier?!?” Before it was spammed so much that Spam felt bad. This new version is such a nerf it’s gonna make Nerf feel bad.
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As stated elsewhere, I guess I play in a weird bubble for the last 15 years or however long 5E/Next has existed, where Guidance was an afterthought, and not a default mega-abuse instant-win button. Given all that, I guess this IS a nerf, for sure!
Just to note, the table I play at didn't get that bad, I was just noting it from the Ranger video but it still gets abused, some people whom have the cantrip themselves just randomly roll an extra D4 when they feel like it without noting guidance but we all know it's guidance and those that don't just sometimes ask for it, like if everybody needs to jump across a gap as one example.
It's all a problem of timing bumping up against the arbitrariness of when an action becomes a check and whether the character knows that's going to happen. If the Rogue is about to pick a lock or disarm a trap, it makes sense to use Guidance on them. Knowledge check to recall information? Say a little prayer before you search your memory to see what you remember. But when you're in the flow of the narrative, you don't always think about which things your character is doing might turn out to be Check-Worthy (TM), so you agree that your character is maintaining Guidance on someone, just like you agree that the Rogue is generally keeping an eye out for traps and will check each door before you attempt to open it.
New Guidance solves that issue by making it a reaction, but the once per long rest stipulation means you can "waste" your cantrip by using it and having the 1d4 fail to bring failure to success, so now you're trying to game whether this roll right now is the one roll important enough to blow your cantrip on for the day.
For the day, per character, to be fair. So it's "is THIS the trap to worry about?" and "is THIS the jump to worry about?" and "is THIS the knowledge check to worry about?". So it's not so bad as "blow the cantrip for the day" at least.
Cantrips with limited uses per day defeats the purpose of being a cantrip. If it's too good to allow it to be used freely, it should be a leveled spell. If it's not good enough to be a leveled spell, then it either needs to be completely rethought, or eliminated.
You mean, whoever took Guidance didn’t think to use it every time the DM called for a check? How come?
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