This should really be in the Unearthed Arcana forum since this isn't yet an official rule.
However the levels of exhaustion are explained; instead of having unique effects at each level it's simply a cumulative penalty to all d20 checks (ability checks, attack rolls and saving throws), so if you have five levels of exhaustion, you'll have -5 on all these rolls, which is pretty punishing.
In fact it's potentially worse than dying and having someone bring you back with raise dead (maximum penalty of -4), though I guess we'll see if they change that spell (it's not one of the ones with a UA update so far).
I'm undecided how I feel about it though; while it being simpler is good, 10 levels seems like too many as once you hit a -5 penalty you basically need to gain advantage somehow to counteract that effect (e.g- a Barbarian using 100% Reckless Attacks just to maintain a decent chance of hitting), should probably stay at 6 levels maximum IMO unless they're planning to increase the number of effects that apply levels of exhaustion.
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I'm undecided how I feel about it though; while it being simpler is good, 10 levels seems like too many as once you hit a -5 penalty you basically need to gain advantage somehow to counteract that effect (e.g- a Barbarian using 100% Reckless Attacks just to maintain a decent chance of hitting), should probably stay at 6 levels maximum IMO unless they're planning to increase the number of effects that apply levels of exhaustion.
I suspect it's mostly so that the mechanics can hand out exhaustion more freely without making sudden death too likely.
My question is how does this change affect Berserker barbarian? Is changing exhaustion this way enough to "fix" this subclass to where it wont require other tweaks? Since barbarians can offset penalties to their attack rolls with Reckless attack and penalties to Str/Dex based saving throws with Rage/Danger Sense, it seems like a Berserker can afford to accumulate several levels of exhaustion without much worry. Beyond sources of advantage, one could also argue that getting to make a bonus attack every round could be enough to make up for a higher chance of missing with the attacks.
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My question is how does this change affect Berserker barbarian? Is changing exhaustion this way enough to "fix" this subclass to where it wont require other tweaks? Since barbarians can offset penalties to their attack rolls with Reckless attack and penalties to Str/Dex based saving throws with Rage/Danger Sense, it seems like a Berserker can afford to accumulate several levels of exhaustion without much worry. Beyond sources of advantage, one could also argue that getting to make a bonus attack every round could be enough to make up for a higher chance of missing with the attacks.
If you just use this new exhaustion with the existing class and sub-class then it's somewhat mixed; with the current exhaustion rules the first level (disadvantage on checks) isn't a huge problem for your average Berserker unless they Grapple a lot. Even the second level (half speed) doesn't hurt your average Barbarian much as you get boosted speed anyway, so unless the distances in a combat are large you should be okay.
Under this new rule you'll see general performance declining after a single level, and two will already be starting to hurt. It will help with longer term performance though (3rd and 4th level of exhaustion aren't so bad).
So kind of mixed I guess? But this assumes no change to Berserker; I expect we'll see some big differences when the updated sub-class is previewed.
I suppose in some ways the new exhaustion hurts more right away, or at least more generally (since it affects pretty much everything, rather than just checks) but it scales more consistently as it gets worse. It's basically 5% worse all round per level of exhaustion suffered.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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While it's simpler, I'm not a fan at all. This Exhaustion mechanic has minimal impact for the first few levels and, as noted has far too many levels before it becomes lethal.
I understand this might make the Berserker Barbarian's Frenzy finally workable, but it should never be the design philosophy to completely gut a component of the game to fix a subclass' poorly designed feature. Instead you redesign the subclass feature and there have been many decent suggestions online.
Exhaustion, resource management, and random encounters are 3 of the least understood and employed, but best ways to properly develop the Exploration pillar of the game. Reducing those elements removes the impactful decision making (or role playing if you will) that will engage players with it. Hence they find it boring with no meaningful decisions. Hence DMs remove it or gloss over it.
I liked how thematic the stages of Exhaustion were, progressing from struggling at ability checks, slowing down and holding the party up, to eventually collapsing. Any of the rare incidences where I gave a PC Exhaustion were warranted and made the player stop and consider their actions.
This proposed system will have to have the option of awarding multiple levels at once based on the severity to make it impactful which then requires further guidance for DMs as to what's suitable.
If they are going to go with these changes to exhaustion then they need to find a new way to represent the effects of things like sleep deprivation, starvation and dehydration because the biggest impact I see with the changes is in the Exploration pillar of the game. edit: The Exploration pillar is already weak as is.
This change ruins the fun of using sickening radiance. Yes, things would die often before they hit 5 levels but, with the new Nat20 rules, it's possible to survive the full duration of the spell.
This change ruins the fun of using sickening radiance. Yes, things would die often before they hit 5 levels but, with the new Nat20 rules, it's possible to survive the full duration of the spell.
The new nat 20 rule was eliminated. Even if it stayed, the target would need to roll 91/100 rolls as a 20 to avoid death (assuming the base save is not high enough to allow it to save otherwise)
As a DM I really like this proposed change. It will be a condition that can be used more often without being as punishing to begin with but scale to be worse as it progresses. My players are level 13 right now and their modifiers are massive with my paladins aura especially. This could really make an adventure feel like it is wearing on them if a trap or a monster dealt a level of exhaustion here and there making the adventuring day more tense. Right now the later levels are just not fun for the player like having their speed halved, at least with this they can still continue to move around and participate and with monsters often having relatively low AC they will still be hitting even with a big negative modifier. Most of my players have a +10 or 11 to hit right now so even a -5 wouldn’t be that bad considering the bard can still cast faire fire for advantage etc.
I think it would add the feeling of an adventure actually wearing on the characters. Books like tome of beasts from kobold press already have many monsters that reduce one of a characters ability scores temporarily, it is similar to that but across the board. I would even be interested in how this could be used as something a player gets when they die or get to 0hp having to make a con save or something not sure what the DC would be.
I will right now put cash money down on a bet guaranteeing that, if Berserker Barbarian comes back, they are going to completely change how Frenzy works. I'm gonna bet it's either going to be a one-a-day thing, or, like most limited-use features we've seen in One D&D, it will be limited to Proficiency Bonus. If I can just wildly guess, my theory is that they're just going to give Berserkers a flat boost to their Rage damage.
Anyway, that's not here or there. As for the new take on Exhaustion... I'm a bit mixed. I like that it's much simpler... everyone will easily understand what every level of Exhaustion does to a character, and the increase in how many levels it takes to die means that Exhaustion can be used more freely in the game. However, as much as I'm usually in favor of simplifying the game for the sake of making the game more approachable, I still think some of those complexities make the game more engaging. Exhaustion was more interesting, and it required more tactical responses to deal with.
Firmly a fan of New Exhaustion. R5e Exhaustion was so debilitating a DM couldn't readily hand out more than one, maybe two levels. Once a character accumulates 3+ levels of Exhaustion they're effectively removed from the game until they drop back down the scale; their capabilities are so drastically reduced that it doesn't make any sense for them to do anything, and it increasingly doesn't make sense for the party around them to do anything but hole up and start bleeding those levels off. 1DD Exhaustion simply being a cumulative penalty to tests makes a lot more sense, and also means a DM can be much more generous with Exhaustion levels. After all, even at really deep exhaustion a character is unlikely to be of much use on tests...but they're still able to move, they're not losing half their HP. They're not being soft-killed and removed from the game until such time as they can spend a week sleeping. Means I can absolutely start creating monsters or environmental hazards that impose Exhaustion and not feel bad if my players eat several levels by being dumb.
Seeing some more responses... I do agree that 5e Exhaustion is too debilitating. Basically if you get as few as 2 points of exhaustion then you might as well just take the day off. I think ultimately Exhaustion would need to be reworked... even if they weren't going to do a static penalty to d20 Tests, the individual levels of exhaustion would still need to be adjusted.
I think the new exhaustion is more functional than the old one, but I still don't particularly like it -- there's no reason fatigue should be any more long term debilitating than damage. In my current game I decided that you can spend hit dice to remove levels of exhaustion.
I think the new exhaustion is more functional than the old one, but I still don't particularly like it -- there's no reason fatigue should be any more long term debilitating than damage. In my current game I decided that you can spend hit dice to remove levels of exhaustion.
I mean, we all know the real answer is that damage shouldn't be any easier to recover from than fatigue, but people will scream if they don't have their Wolverine Super Regeneration that eliminates all danger and impact whatsoever from even the most devastating of wounds. Soooooo.............
On a more serious note, something in this bloody game needs to be able to last past a long rest. Exhaustion is currently the only mechanic a DM can use - or Wizards, for that matter - to inflict strain on a character and limit their abilities past the next Sleepy Naptime. Some things require that sort of timer, the game needs a mechanism for lingering debilitation. Damage can't/won't do it. Exhaustion kinda has to.
I think the new exhaustion is more functional than the old one, but I still don't particularly like it -- there's no reason fatigue should be any more long term debilitating than damage. In my current game I decided that you can spend hit dice to remove levels of exhaustion.
I think it depends what you consider damage to really represent; while spells like cure wounds and terms like "damage" muddy the waters, I tend not to think of it as meaningful physical harm at all, as for that we have DMG injuries or other effects*.
To me damage/hit-points is more like a measure of your ability to protect yourself; once your HP runs low that is when the monster rakes its claws across your chest, or a swords strike pierces your body so you're bleeding out, and without those wounds being closed you'll die. Rather than each creature just hacking bits off each other like they're felling trees, then sleeping it off like it never happened, which is how it works mechanically. I find thinking of it as "guard" or "defence" works a lot better narratively for me at least.
*In fact, exhaustion is a decent way to represent lasting harm from being KO'd by attacks, though I prefer to see it used contextually so a player who's having a bad day doesn't just end up being punished further. But I also like to use lesser injuries like wounded or broken limbs etc. to keep the sense of danger up, and especially to remind players to not just jump off things because you've got a load of HP. 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
On a more serious note, something in this bloody game needs to be able to last past a long rest. Exhaustion is currently the only mechanic a DM can use - or Wizards, for that matter - to inflict strain on a character and limit their abilities past the next Sleepy Naptime.
If you want that type of play, I'd recommend using Gritty Realism. There's also lingering injuries, diseases, indefinite madness, and specific effects that have a defined duration that's longer than a long rest.
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Did I miss something here or do you think the newly proposed rules on Exhaustion
Will be continued & better described
In 3rd coming Unearthed Arcana? 📄
Because D&D have added 4 more levels before death 😵
And none of the levels are actually explained 🤔
This should really be in the Unearthed Arcana forum since this isn't yet an official rule.However the levels of exhaustion are explained; instead of having unique effects at each level it's simply a cumulative penalty to all d20 checks (ability checks, attack rolls and saving throws), so if you have five levels of exhaustion, you'll have -5 on all these rolls, which is pretty punishing.
In fact it's potentially worse than dying and having someone bring you back with raise dead (maximum penalty of -4), though I guess we'll see if they change that spell (it's not one of the ones with a UA update so far).
I'm undecided how I feel about it though; while it being simpler is good, 10 levels seems like too many as once you hit a -5 penalty you basically need to gain advantage somehow to counteract that effect (e.g- a Barbarian using 100% Reckless Attacks just to maintain a decent chance of hitting), should probably stay at 6 levels maximum IMO unless they're planning to increase the number of effects that apply levels of exhaustion.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I suspect it's mostly so that the mechanics can hand out exhaustion more freely without making sudden death too likely.
My question is how does this change affect Berserker barbarian? Is changing exhaustion this way enough to "fix" this subclass to where it wont require other tweaks? Since barbarians can offset penalties to their attack rolls with Reckless attack and penalties to Str/Dex based saving throws with Rage/Danger Sense, it seems like a Berserker can afford to accumulate several levels of exhaustion without much worry. Beyond sources of advantage, one could also argue that getting to make a bonus attack every round could be enough to make up for a higher chance of missing with the attacks.
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If you just use this new exhaustion with the existing class and sub-class then it's somewhat mixed; with the current exhaustion rules the first level (disadvantage on checks) isn't a huge problem for your average Berserker unless they Grapple a lot. Even the second level (half speed) doesn't hurt your average Barbarian much as you get boosted speed anyway, so unless the distances in a combat are large you should be okay.
Under this new rule you'll see general performance declining after a single level, and two will already be starting to hurt. It will help with longer term performance though (3rd and 4th level of exhaustion aren't so bad).
So kind of mixed I guess? But this assumes no change to Berserker; I expect we'll see some big differences when the updated sub-class is previewed.
I suppose in some ways the new exhaustion hurts more right away, or at least more generally (since it affects pretty much everything, rather than just checks) but it scales more consistently as it gets worse. It's basically 5% worse all round per level of exhaustion suffered.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
While it's simpler, I'm not a fan at all. This Exhaustion mechanic has minimal impact for the first few levels and, as noted has far too many levels before it becomes lethal.
I understand this might make the Berserker Barbarian's Frenzy finally workable, but it should never be the design philosophy to completely gut a component of the game to fix a subclass' poorly designed feature. Instead you redesign the subclass feature and there have been many decent suggestions online.
Exhaustion, resource management, and random encounters are 3 of the least understood and employed, but best ways to properly develop the Exploration pillar of the game. Reducing those elements removes the impactful decision making (or role playing if you will) that will engage players with it. Hence they find it boring with no meaningful decisions. Hence DMs remove it or gloss over it.
I liked how thematic the stages of Exhaustion were, progressing from struggling at ability checks, slowing down and holding the party up, to eventually collapsing. Any of the rare incidences where I gave a PC Exhaustion were warranted and made the player stop and consider their actions.
This proposed system will have to have the option of awarding multiple levels at once based on the severity to make it impactful which then requires further guidance for DMs as to what's suitable.
If they are going to go with these changes to exhaustion then they need to find a new way to represent the effects of things like sleep deprivation, starvation and dehydration because the biggest impact I see with the changes is in the Exploration pillar of the game. edit: The Exploration pillar is already weak as is.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
This change ruins the fun of using sickening radiance. Yes, things would die often before they hit 5 levels but, with the new Nat20 rules, it's possible to survive the full duration of the spell.
The new nat 20 rule was eliminated. Even if it stayed, the target would need to roll 91/100 rolls as a 20 to avoid death (assuming the base save is not high enough to allow it to save otherwise)
Okay, I get it now thanks to your explanation
Thanks 🙏🏾
Also, I never knew there was an Unearthed Arcana section of this forum
I've probably missed a lot of One D&D topics
Headed there now 🏃🏾♂️💨
Agreed... & sleeping outdoors, for several hours, without a Bedroll 🥴
I was handing "Exhaustion tickets" out left & right w/ one of my groups 🥲
They took the chance of a Forced March
And rolled poorly each hour until they decided to chill
I tracked their travel & time 👣⏳
As a DM I really like this proposed change. It will be a condition that can be used more often without being as punishing to begin with but scale to be worse as it progresses.
My players are level 13 right now and their modifiers are massive with my paladins aura especially. This could really make an adventure feel like it is wearing on them if a trap or a monster dealt a level of exhaustion here and there making the adventuring day more tense. Right now the later levels are just not fun for the player like having their speed halved, at least with this they can still continue to move around and participate and with monsters often having relatively low AC they will still be hitting even with a big negative modifier. Most of my players have a +10 or 11 to hit right now so even a -5 wouldn’t be that bad considering the bard can still cast faire fire for advantage etc.
I think it would add the feeling of an adventure actually wearing on the characters. Books like tome of beasts from kobold press already have many monsters that reduce one of a characters ability scores temporarily, it is similar to that but across the board. I would even be interested in how this could be used as something a player gets when they die or get to 0hp having to make a con save or something not sure what the DC would be.
I will right now put cash money down on a bet guaranteeing that, if Berserker Barbarian comes back, they are going to completely change how Frenzy works. I'm gonna bet it's either going to be a one-a-day thing, or, like most limited-use features we've seen in One D&D, it will be limited to Proficiency Bonus. If I can just wildly guess, my theory is that they're just going to give Berserkers a flat boost to their Rage damage.
Anyway, that's not here or there. As for the new take on Exhaustion... I'm a bit mixed. I like that it's much simpler... everyone will easily understand what every level of Exhaustion does to a character, and the increase in how many levels it takes to die means that Exhaustion can be used more freely in the game. However, as much as I'm usually in favor of simplifying the game for the sake of making the game more approachable, I still think some of those complexities make the game more engaging. Exhaustion was more interesting, and it required more tactical responses to deal with.
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Firmly a fan of New Exhaustion. R5e Exhaustion was so debilitating a DM couldn't readily hand out more than one, maybe two levels. Once a character accumulates 3+ levels of Exhaustion they're effectively removed from the game until they drop back down the scale; their capabilities are so drastically reduced that it doesn't make any sense for them to do anything, and it increasingly doesn't make sense for the party around them to do anything but hole up and start bleeding those levels off. 1DD Exhaustion simply being a cumulative penalty to tests makes a lot more sense, and also means a DM can be much more generous with Exhaustion levels. After all, even at really deep exhaustion a character is unlikely to be of much use on tests...but they're still able to move, they're not losing half their HP. They're not being soft-killed and removed from the game until such time as they can spend a week sleeping. Means I can absolutely start creating monsters or environmental hazards that impose Exhaustion and not feel bad if my players eat several levels by being dumb.
Please do not contact or message me.
Seeing some more responses... I do agree that 5e Exhaustion is too debilitating. Basically if you get as few as 2 points of exhaustion then you might as well just take the day off. I think ultimately Exhaustion would need to be reworked... even if they weren't going to do a static penalty to d20 Tests, the individual levels of exhaustion would still need to be adjusted.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I think the new exhaustion is more functional than the old one, but I still don't particularly like it -- there's no reason fatigue should be any more long term debilitating than damage. In my current game I decided that you can spend hit dice to remove levels of exhaustion.
I mean, we all know the real answer is that damage shouldn't be any easier to recover from than fatigue, but people will scream if they don't have their Wolverine Super Regeneration that eliminates all danger and impact whatsoever from even the most devastating of wounds. Soooooo.............On a more serious note, something in this bloody game needs to be able to last past a long rest. Exhaustion is currently the only mechanic a DM can use - or Wizards, for that matter - to inflict strain on a character and limit their abilities past the next Sleepy Naptime. Some things require that sort of timer, the game needs a mechanism for lingering debilitation. Damage can't/won't do it. Exhaustion kinda has to.
Please do not contact or message me.
I think it depends what you consider damage to really represent; while spells like cure wounds and terms like "damage" muddy the waters, I tend not to think of it as meaningful physical harm at all, as for that we have DMG injuries or other effects*.
To me damage/hit-points is more like a measure of your ability to protect yourself; once your HP runs low that is when the monster rakes its claws across your chest, or a swords strike pierces your body so you're bleeding out, and without those wounds being closed you'll die. Rather than each creature just hacking bits off each other like they're felling trees, then sleeping it off like it never happened, which is how it works mechanically. I find thinking of it as "guard" or "defence" works a lot better narratively for me at least.
*In fact, exhaustion is a decent way to represent lasting harm from being KO'd by attacks, though I prefer to see it used contextually so a player who's having a bad day doesn't just end up being punished further. But I also like to use lesser injuries like wounded or broken limbs etc. to keep the sense of danger up, and especially to remind players to not just jump off things because you've got a load of HP. 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
If you want that type of play, I'd recommend using Gritty Realism. There's also lingering injuries, diseases, indefinite madness, and specific effects that have a defined duration that's longer than a long rest.