Some recent threads have reminded me of an issue with 5e, that doesn't seem resolved by UA: martial classes get all their cool features early.
Any primary spellcasting class is guaranteed a cool new feature at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, and 17, because that's when you get your new spell levels. Your other features are generally... okay.
Plenty of non-spellcasters get a pretty good selection of abilities over levels 1-10; I'm not sure they're as game changing as new spell levels, but they're still a big deal. However, level 10-18 is quite thin on features that are legit cool.
Level 10-18 for barbarians really has nothing that changes anything. They're all "okay, you're slightly better at what you already did", no real wow options.
Level 10-18 for fighter does make you consistently better at your job, but the only one that I'd think of as a "wow, this is a new thing" is Unconquerable at 18, the rest are just 'more of what I already did'.
Level 10-18 for rogue does give you reliable and stroke of luck, which are quite solid features, but that's still only two really notable features.
I think it would be nice if all classes that don't have casting as a class feature simply got more features. Of course it isn't going to happen in 2024, but maybe in another 10 years they will do a more comprehensive overhaul of the the game. Maybe sooner if 5e2024 doesn't sell as well as they would like.
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Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
Some recent threads have reminded me of an issue with 5e, that doesn't seem resolved by UA: martial classes get all their cool features early.
Any primary spellcasting class is guaranteed a cool new feature at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, and 17, because that's when you get your new spell levels. Your other features are generally... okay.
Plenty of non-spellcasters get a pretty good selection of abilities over levels 1-10; I'm not sure they're as game changing as new spell levels, but they're still a big deal. However, level 1
None of the level 10-20 features for barbarians impresses me. They're all "okay, you're slightly better at what you already did", no real wow options.
The level 10-20 features for fighters are a bit better, in that they actually make you substantially better at your basic job (in a combat that lasts 5 turns, a level 10 fighter probably makes 12 attacks. A level 11 makes 18, a level 15 makes 21, a level 18 makes 28), but the only one that seems like a game changer is Unconquerable.
The level 10-20 features for rogues do have two game changers -- reliable and stroke of luck.
By comparison, primary spellcasters over those levels get 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, all of which are quite substantial advances.
The title threw me a little at first as the topic seems more about subpar high level features for martials. Not the front loading.
So basically it’s the martial-caster divide. I don’t think anything will eliminate the gap when talking about 6th-9th level spells. And I don’t think they need too. Could it be less? Sure. Could the 10-20 be a bit better, I think they could. But I do think there have been improvements from the 2014 versions of fighter and Barbarian.
We can debate if they were enough. This doesn’t seem like it’s planned to be a big shift from 2014 to 2024, like I had anticipated when they first started 1DD. And we haven’t seen any significant revisions to spells (just a few in earlier UA’s) So it’s hard to judge if the gap will narrow even further.
Unconquerable is broken, too many Legendary Resistances, because TBH, adding 15+ to saving throw is like passing. All the Fighters are getting the Mage Killer feature at that level, instead being something more related to specific subclasses. As first modification, I’d do it to spend 2 Second Wind instead only 1, is too powerful.
Aside from that, what you describe is what is expected from martials, with the exception of the Monk (martial arts are always some special). If someone wants those kind of features, probably should check for a half-caster as a very nice martial with special features. And that’s why the Warlock should be half-caster, to have at least one of each spell domain. Also, the distinguishable features for martials are usually on the subclasses, giving them at class level could be not easy.
The spells are always something special by their own, as are something specific that is quickly spended.
What I like less for the Fighter is that fixation to grant it so many attacks, instead less attacks per round but more damage dice, like Paladin or even Barbarian (at least Berserker) have.
if you give fighter something cool like, for random example, targeting (hand - disarm, foot - reduce movement, groin - persuasion, etc) then you'll just have rangers arguing that they should get it too and earlier, or whatever. if you give barbarians some multi-grapple-parkour battlefield movement ability, next you'll have monks explaining why they should get that instead. adding pizzazz to martials going forward will have everything to do with level-restricted martial class feats shared between them. a spell list for the spell-less. the last few UA don't seem to be shying away from that which gives me some hope.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
The title threw me a little at first as the topic seems more about subpar high level features for martials. Not the front loading.
It's two halves of the same problem. There's a reason why a lot of multiclass dips are 1-3 levels in a class -- most classes get most of their substantial class features at quite low level. The big exception there is spells.
In general delaying some class features would solve a balance problem in tier 1 (when casters are generally kinda terrible), and adding new features would solve a balance problem in tier 3-4.
So, let's do an experiment with trying to reduce front loading and increasing high level scaling
Barbarian
We have to start with low level. The super strong feature for barbarians, and the thing you'd dip for, is rages. The reason rages are strong and dippable is because damage resistance effectively doubles your hit points and healing received, so 1 level of barbarian on a level 12 with 100 hit points is effectively an extra 100 hit points. The obvious solution is to just change it to temporary hit points. Thus:
Rage (level 1)
Provides (level*3) temporary hit points. You may spend rages while raging to replenish these temporary hit points.
Overall, this is somewhat less powerful at low levels, but not dramatically so; preventing 3 damage in a battle is a fairly medium result for rage at level 1. It does, however, make having more than 2 rages a lot more relevant than it is in 5e, and means taking a dip isn't suddenly effectively doubling your hit points.
Level 2-4: no change. No change at any level not specifically mentioned below.
Level 5: Fast Movement
Bonus is now Level*2. In addition, add your level to your strength when determining jump distance.
One of the biggest weaknesses of melee is the inability to actually reach the enemy. This won't solve it, even 70' movement at level 20 isn't that much relative to the ranges of monsters at those levels, but it helps.
Level 9: Indomitable Might
Rather than a minimum result of Strength, the minimum result is 15. This increases to 20 at level 13 and 25 at level 18.
This feature is likely more powerful than intended due to its new interaction with primal knowledge. Changing to a fixed number gives room to improve at higher levels.
Level 11: Brute (Replaces Brutal Critical)
Functions as the creature power of the same name -- +1 weapon damage die when you hit with a melee weapon.
This is more comparable to other classes' level 11 features, such as fighters getting a third attack.
You now get (level) temp hit points at the start of each of your turns. These stack with other temporary hit point bonuses to a max of level*3. This is in addition to its existing effect.
Indomitable might now guarantees a result of at least 20.
Level 15: Relentless Rage
If an effect would reduce you to 0 hp, you may spend a rage to instead set your hit points equal to your level. You also get all normal benefits of spending a rage.
If an effect would render you charmed or incapacitated, you may spend a rage to prevent that effect. You also get all normal benefits of spending a rage.
Dying isn't really the biggest concern for a level 15 barbarian; the bigger concern is being rendered irrelevant.
Level 17: Rage Resurgence, Mighty Brute
Rage resurgence as the playtest. Mighty Brute increases the Brute bonus to 2d.
So, let's do an experiment with trying to reduce front loading and increasing high level scaling
Barbarian
We have to start with low level. The super strong feature for barbarians, and the thing you'd dip for, is rages. The reason rages are strong and dippable is because damage resistance effectively doubles your hit points and healing received, so 1 level of barbarian on a level 12 with 100 hit points is effectively an extra 100 hit points. The obvious solution is to just change it to temporary hit points. Thus:
Rage (level 1)
Provides (level*3) temporary hit points. You may spend rages while raging to replenish these temporary hit points.
Overall, this is somewhat less powerful at low levels, but not dramatically so; preventing 3 damage in a battle is a fairly medium result for rage at level 1. It does, however, make having more than 2 rages a lot more relevant than it is in 5e, and means taking a dip isn't suddenly effectively doubling your hit points.
Level 2-4: no change. No change at any level not specifically mentioned below.
Level 5: Fast Movement
Bonus is now Level*2. In addition, add your level to your strength when determining jump distance.
One of the biggest weaknesses of melee is the inability to actually reach the enemy. This won't solve it, even 70' movement at level 20 isn't that much relative to the ranges of monsters at those levels, but it helps.
Level 9: Indomitable Might
Rather than a minimum result of Strength, the minimum result is 15. This increases to 20 at level 13 and 25 at level 18.
This feature is likely more powerful than intended due to its new interaction with primal knowledge. Changing to a fixed number gives room to improve at higher levels.
Level 11: Brute (Replaces Brutal Critical)
Functions as the creature power of the same name -- +1 weapon damage die when you hit with a melee weapon.
This is more comparable to other classes' level 11 features, such as fighters getting a third attack.
You now get (level) temp hit points at the start of each of your turns. These stack with other temporary hit point bonuses to a max of level*3. This is in addition to its existing effect.
Indomitable might now guarantees a result of at least 20.
Level 15: Relentless Rage
If an effect would reduce you to 0 hp, you may spend a rage to instead set your hit points equal to your level. You also get all normal benefits of spending a rage.
If an effect would render you charmed or incapacitated, you may spend a rage to prevent that effect. You also get all normal benefits of spending a rage.
Dying isn't really the biggest concern for a level 15 barbarian; the bigger concern is being rendered irrelevant.
Level 17: Rage Resurgence, Mighty Brute
Rage resurgence as the playtest. Mighty Brute increases the Brute bonus to 2d.
Primal champion as the playtest. Indomitable might is now a guaranteed 25.
I would say that these changes still don't really compare to high level spells, but in general the scaling is... closer.
I like the idea of the higher level scaling, but I'm not sure about how you are handling the Rage. I understand it is a "dip" issue, but this is a core feature of the class. It defines what a Barbarian is, mechanically. Adding some THP doesn't really shout "Barbarian" with so many other ways to get THP in the game.
I don't think that trying to spread out Teir 1/2 features to avoid "dips" is the way to go. These early features, like spellcasting, Heavy Armor Training, Rage, Sorcery Points/Metamagic, Smites, sets the tone for the class. Spreading them out just seems to water them down. Sure, early level spells aren't the most powerful (though Web, Hypnotic Pattern, Suggestion, etc. certainly are) but they set the tone for the caster. Watering down Rage or Action Surge because you are worried about frontloading feels like it widens the gap between martials and casters even more. Setting up a powerful early tier feature, but limiting it by levels in the class seems the better way to go, like how they handled Eldritch Blast for Warlocks.
I like the idea of the higher level scaling, but I'm not sure about how you are handling the Rage. I understand it is a "dip" issue, but this is a core feature of the class. It defines what a Barbarian is, mechanically. Adding some THP doesn't really shout "Barbarian" with so many other ways to get THP in the game.
Could also provide damage negation. The key problem is that damage resistance in effect multiplies all hit points and healing by two, so it scales very well with only a minimal dip.
I don't think that trying to spread out Teir 1/2 features to avoid "dips" is the way to go. These early features, like spellcasting, Heavy Armor Training, Rage, Sorcery Points/Metamagic, Smites, sets the tone for the class. Spreading them out just seems to water them down. Sure, early level spells aren't the most powerful (though Web, Hypnotic Pattern, Suggestion, etc. certainly are) but they set the tone for the caster. Watering down Rage or Action Surge because you are worried about frontloading feels like it widens the gap between martials and casters even more. Setting up a powerful early tier feature, but limiting it by levels in the class seems the better way to go, like how they handled Eldritch Blast for Warlocks.
That's what temporary hit points do.
In any case, martial characters are overpowered in tier 1, and deferring, weakening, or scaling features solves that.
what's wrong with a 1-or-2 level dip? nothing that can't be fixed more quickly with the addition of a hand drawn frowny face and maybe some underlining of "multiclass is optional, ask your dm," surely.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
I don’t necessarily agree that martials are overpowered in tier 1. At levels 1-2 even 3 a sleep spell can be an encounter ender. But I could be wrong. I don’t have a lot of experience in this tier.
What I like less for the Fighter is that fixation to grant it so many attacks, instead less attacks per round but more damage dice, like Paladin or even Barbarian (at least Berserker) have.
Nah, better not make fighter identical to paladins and barbarians. I like them being different. Fighter is fast, paladin adds radiant damage die, barbarian adds a fixed physical damage bonus, ranger marks an enemy. The outcome might roughly be the same, but it at least feels different.
Nailed it, honestly. This isn't about front-loading, this is about WotC insisting on grounding martials in reality. They don't get new stuff at high levels because they need to conform to a medieval simulation and actual appropriate high level features would break that. This is a conceptual problem, and it's clear they don't want to address in OD&D, so we get this.
Spreading features out only weakens them at lower levels where they would otherwise actually be competitive. They are already balanced fine from 1-10. They only seem front-loaded because they are denied features in the back 10.
Some recent threads have reminded me of an issue with 5e, that doesn't seem resolved by UA: martial classes get all their cool features early.
Any primary spellcasting class is guaranteed a cool new feature at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, and 17, because that's when you get your new spell levels. Your other features are generally... okay.
Plenty of non-spellcasters get a pretty good selection of abilities over levels 1-10; I'm not sure they're as game changing as new spell levels, but they're still a big deal. However, level 10-18 is quite thin on features that are legit cool.
Level 10-18 for barbarians really has nothing that changes anything. They're all "okay, you're slightly better at what you already did", no real wow options.
Level 10-18 for fighter does make you consistently better at your job, but the only one that I'd think of as a "wow, this is a new thing" is Unconquerable at 18, the rest are just 'more of what I already did'.
Level 10-18 for rogue does give you reliable and stroke of luck, which are quite solid features, but that's still only two really notable features.
I think it would be nice if all classes that don't have casting as a class feature simply got more features. Of course it isn't going to happen in 2024, but maybe in another 10 years they will do a more comprehensive overhaul of the the game. Maybe sooner if 5e2024 doesn't sell as well as they would like.
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
The title threw me a little at first as the topic seems more about subpar high level features for martials. Not the front loading.
So basically it’s the martial-caster divide. I don’t think anything will eliminate the gap when talking about 6th-9th level spells. And I don’t think they need too. Could it be less? Sure. Could the 10-20 be a bit better, I think they could. But I do think there have been improvements from the 2014 versions of fighter and Barbarian.
We can debate if they were enough. This doesn’t seem like it’s planned to be a big shift from 2014 to 2024, like I had anticipated when they first started 1DD. And we haven’t seen any significant revisions to spells (just a few in earlier UA’s) So it’s hard to judge if the gap will narrow even further.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Unconquerable is broken, too many Legendary Resistances, because TBH, adding 15+ to saving throw is like passing. All the Fighters are getting the Mage Killer feature at that level, instead being something more related to specific subclasses. As first modification, I’d do it to spend 2 Second Wind instead only 1, is too powerful.
Aside from that, what you describe is what is expected from martials, with the exception of the Monk (martial arts are always some special). If someone wants those kind of features, probably should check for a half-caster as a very nice martial with special features. And that’s why the Warlock should be half-caster, to have at least one of each spell domain. Also, the distinguishable features for martials are usually on the subclasses, giving them at class level could be not easy.
The spells are always something special by their own, as are something specific that is quickly spended.
What I like less for the Fighter is that fixation to grant it so many attacks, instead less attacks per round but more damage dice, like Paladin or even Barbarian (at least Berserker) have.
if you give fighter something cool like, for random example, targeting (hand - disarm, foot - reduce movement, groin - persuasion, etc) then you'll just have rangers arguing that they should get it too and earlier, or whatever. if you give barbarians some multi-grapple-parkour battlefield movement ability, next you'll have monks explaining why they should get that instead. adding pizzazz to martials going forward will have everything to do with level-restricted martial class feats shared between them. a spell list for the spell-less. the last few UA don't seem to be shying away from that which gives me some hope.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
It's two halves of the same problem. There's a reason why a lot of multiclass dips are 1-3 levels in a class -- most classes get most of their substantial class features at quite low level. The big exception there is spells.
In general delaying some class features would solve a balance problem in tier 1 (when casters are generally kinda terrible), and adding new features would solve a balance problem in tier 3-4.
So, let's do an experiment with trying to reduce front loading and increasing high level scaling
Barbarian
We have to start with low level. The super strong feature for barbarians, and the thing you'd dip for, is rages. The reason rages are strong and dippable is because damage resistance effectively doubles your hit points and healing received, so 1 level of barbarian on a level 12 with 100 hit points is effectively an extra 100 hit points. The obvious solution is to just change it to temporary hit points. Thus:
Rage (level 1)
Provides (level*3) temporary hit points. You may spend rages while raging to replenish these temporary hit points.
Overall, this is somewhat less powerful at low levels, but not dramatically so; preventing 3 damage in a battle is a fairly medium result for rage at level 1. It does, however, make having more than 2 rages a lot more relevant than it is in 5e, and means taking a dip isn't suddenly effectively doubling your hit points.
Level 2-4: no change. No change at any level not specifically mentioned below.
Level 5: Fast Movement
Bonus is now Level*2. In addition, add your level to your strength when determining jump distance.
One of the biggest weaknesses of melee is the inability to actually reach the enemy. This won't solve it, even 70' movement at level 20 isn't that much relative to the ranges of monsters at those levels, but it helps.
Level 9: Indomitable Might
Rather than a minimum result of Strength, the minimum result is 15. This increases to 20 at level 13 and 25 at level 18.
This feature is likely more powerful than intended due to its new interaction with primal knowledge. Changing to a fixed number gives room to improve at higher levels.
Level 11: Brute (Replaces Brutal Critical)
Functions as the creature power of the same name -- +1 weapon damage die when you hit with a melee weapon.
This is more comparable to other classes' level 11 features, such as fighters getting a third attack.
Level 13: Persistent Rage, Improved Indomitable Might
You now get (level) temp hit points at the start of each of your turns. These stack with other temporary hit point bonuses to a max of level*3. This is in addition to its existing effect.
Indomitable might now guarantees a result of at least 20.
Level 15: Relentless Rage
If an effect would reduce you to 0 hp, you may spend a rage to instead set your hit points equal to your level. You also get all normal benefits of spending a rage.
If an effect would render you charmed or incapacitated, you may spend a rage to prevent that effect. You also get all normal benefits of spending a rage.
Dying isn't really the biggest concern for a level 15 barbarian; the bigger concern is being rendered irrelevant.
Level 17: Rage Resurgence, Mighty Brute
Rage resurgence as the playtest. Mighty Brute increases the Brute bonus to 2d.
Level 18: Primal Champion, Superb Indomitable Might
Primal champion as the playtest. Indomitable might is now a guaranteed 25.
I would say that these changes still don't really compare to high level spells, but in general the scaling is... closer.
I like the idea of the higher level scaling, but I'm not sure about how you are handling the Rage. I understand it is a "dip" issue, but this is a core feature of the class. It defines what a Barbarian is, mechanically. Adding some THP doesn't really shout "Barbarian" with so many other ways to get THP in the game.
I don't think that trying to spread out Teir 1/2 features to avoid "dips" is the way to go. These early features, like spellcasting, Heavy Armor Training, Rage, Sorcery Points/Metamagic, Smites, sets the tone for the class. Spreading them out just seems to water them down. Sure, early level spells aren't the most powerful (though Web, Hypnotic Pattern, Suggestion, etc. certainly are) but they set the tone for the caster. Watering down Rage or Action Surge because you are worried about frontloading feels like it widens the gap between martials and casters even more. Setting up a powerful early tier feature, but limiting it by levels in the class seems the better way to go, like how they handled Eldritch Blast for Warlocks.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Could also provide damage negation. The key problem is that damage resistance in effect multiplies all hit points and healing by two, so it scales very well with only a minimal dip.
That's what temporary hit points do.
In any case, martial characters are overpowered in tier 1, and deferring, weakening, or scaling features solves that.
what's wrong with a 1-or-2 level dip? nothing that can't be fixed more quickly with the addition of a hand drawn frowny face and maybe some underlining of "multiclass is optional, ask your dm," surely.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
I don’t necessarily agree that martials are overpowered in tier 1. At levels 1-2 even 3 a sleep spell can be an encounter ender. But I could be wrong. I don’t have a lot of experience in this tier.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Nah, better not make fighter identical to paladins and barbarians. I like them being different. Fighter is fast, paladin adds radiant damage die, barbarian adds a fixed physical damage bonus, ranger marks an enemy. The outcome might roughly be the same, but it at least feels different.
Nailed it, honestly. This isn't about front-loading, this is about WotC insisting on grounding martials in reality. They don't get new stuff at high levels because they need to conform to a medieval simulation and actual appropriate high level features would break that. This is a conceptual problem, and it's clear they don't want to address in OD&D, so we get this.
Spreading features out only weakens them at lower levels where they would otherwise actually be competitive. They are already balanced fine from 1-10. They only seem front-loaded because they are denied features in the back 10.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm