I think I would be ok with Roving or Woodland Stride (or a combined version of the two) being added along side the Fighting Style at level 2.
Nice, I was thinking the same thing. I put it at level one to put Hunter's Mark at level 2, since a lot of people are concerned it's too good for a level 1 dip. But either way would work.
I think I would be ok with Roving or Woodland Stride (or a combined version of the two) being added along side the Fighting Style at level 2.
Nice, I was thinking the same thing. I put it at level one to put Hunter's Mark at level 2, since a lot of people are concerned it's too good for a level 1 dip. But either way would work.
I think moving Favored Enemy to 2nd level would work fairly well with "Roving" in it's place a 1st level.
The time to go from 1st to 2nd is so short anyway.
Okay, at the risk of derailment, I'm going to post some old flavor text that is VERY evocative:
"The ranger's origins can be traced to the time when isolated human settlements were first founded in areas of unclaimed wilderness, or in areas occupied only by savage humanoid times. Those who were at first hunters, trappers, and guides were turned by the necessities of survival into canny wilderness warriors; and ultimately into the principle protectors of the scattered settlements of humans and demi humans, which had to fend off countless humanoid raids.
"Few in number, but effective far beyond the power of local militias or the occasional military patrol of a ruling lord, the rangers have kept a protective watch on the forward frontier of human expansion. There are seldom more than one or two to be found in any place but somehow, as a group, they manage to cover huge areas of the frontier. Where the tide of expansion has been turned back, they are the last to fight a desperate rear guard action against encroaching hordes of evil humanoids.
"In more civilized areas, it is common for kings and wealthy nobles to annex large tracts of forests for personal use. Some are maintained as private game preserves, others are harvested for valuable timber. As a king's wilderness holdings grow, so does the need to protect them. But suitable candidates are hard to come by. Often, from among local woodsmen and hunters, able-bodied and trustworthy retainers are recruited as forest justices or wardens. Skilled in the management of land, wilderness survival, and natural lore, the forest justices are charged with guarding the king's holdings, preserving his game from poachers and his subjects from outlaws and brigands.
"In other places, the local authorities have either lost control or become tyrannical. Perhaps the local order has broken down, and the land is overrun by bandits or robbers. Perhaps a bad ruler has taken over and driven the peasantry beyond all possible tolerance. At such times, a hero may arise, striding out of the wilderness, setting right the wrongs, returning a just overlord to power and then disappearing back into wild and unknown lands. Such is the stuff of legends. Such is the legacy of the ranger."
That's the flavor text that (absent a very gamiest opening paragraph) opened the 2e "Complete Ranger's Handbook."
I think Steg hit on it with his ideas. Rangers need to have good, thematic, and regularly usable abilities. Hunter's Mark is a good stand-in for smite, now if we can fill in some other abilities to tag the wilderness lore. Rangers have had this problem since 3e cracked open all the siloed class abilities and just made them all skills. Suddenly, the rogue could do (almost) everything the ranger could do, and the barbarian could do most of it, plus have Rage.
In a world of wide open multi-classing, rangers need a signature, defining, class ability. Rogues get sneak attack and more. Fighters get multi-attack and piles of feats. Paladins get smite, divine health, lay on hands, and others. Barbarians have rage. Bards have their music. Monks are the unarmored mystical martial artist class. Warlocks have their invocations. Wizards have the best spells. Et cetera.*
But what do Rangers get? Expertise? Shared with Bards and Rogues. Fighting styles? Fighters get more. Feats? Definitely a fighter thing. So where are the ranger's signature, class-defining abilities?
People gravitate to rangers due to their flavor, I think, but I'm not sure we know, or can agree, on what their signature class features should be. I think the nugget of it is guiding, hunting, ambushing, coordinating groups of people, and maybe a bit of out of combat healing (herbalism?). But that's me.
(* I skipped over Clerics and Druids because they honestly get too much. I also skipped sorcerers because the spontaneous casting may, or may not, actually be an advantage compared to Wizards. Jury is out.)
Yes 5e’s ranger flavorings weren’t very good, not arguing that. 4e killed the exploration leg and 5e gave it away so you could ignore it if you had a ranger or Druid along. Same as reliable talent ( and jack of all trades) gives away skill rolls for the party with a rogue (or bard) at higher levels. I don’t have the 2e-3.5e PHBs but I do have the AD&D (1e) one so I went looking at it. here is what the 1e ranger gets:
1) +1 damage/ ranger level vs giants and humanoids. - welcome to a wonderfully scaled Hunter’s Mark, at higher levels maybe add additional types of monsters. 2) Tracking as an actual “skill” with various bonuses and penalties for terrains conditions etc - it would be easy enough to convert this to DC table for easy DM use. 3) Surprise - old version was rangers surprise foes 50% of the time and are surprised only 1/6th but this could be convertered to something like the gloomstalker or assassin ability and maybe extended to the party as a whole. 4) Spells - AdnD got Druid spells (primal) at L8 and arcane at L9 with a max of D/P: 2L1, 2L2, 2L3 and A: 2L1, 2L2 5) followers (at L10) including low level characters, beasts and a few monsters including dragons - numbers were variable- 2d12 so 2-24 followers 6) multiple attacks: L1-7 1 attack/ rnd, L8-14 3att/2rnds, L15+ 2att/rnd, but they got TWF which basically doubled the number of attacks. In addition against foes with less than a D8 for HP they (like all fighters) got 1attack per fighter level so a R9 vs kobolds got 9 attacks.
there were a few restrictions back then however - 1) must be of good alignment 2) can’t hire mercenaries/henchmen until L8 3) could only keep the treasure they could carry on their person and mount ( so they loved PPs and gems/jewelry) 4) no more than 3 rangers in a party
At L1 instead of favored enemy/hunters mark, I would give the ranger a +1 damage/ ranger level on each strike against beasts and humanoids, along with 3 skills, 1 tool and expertise in 2 skills/tools (and I would list the herbalism kit with the other tools) . They also get a climbing and swimming speed = 1/3 their walking speed (10’ for a 30’ speed) In addition, IF they take the nature skill they get to add +1/tier to their proficiency bonus to all tracking rolls and rolls to avoid getting lost. In addition, from studying the tracks they find they are able to estimate the number of individuals, how recently they made the tracks, what type of creature they are along with size and basic stats (AC, attacks, etc). IF they take the survival skill they are able to forage and find/make shelter for themselves and up-to 1/tier + PB other people (and mounts) while moving at a normal rate. IF they take the Stealth skill they are able to add +1/tier to their rolls to stalk/tail prey they can see (tracking is following the trail left be a subject you cannot see, stalking/tailing is following a subject you can see without them realizing it.) these +1/tier bonuses allow the ranger to stand out from the other expert classes in the ranger’s core areas (wilderness/travel/exploration) while also allowing for things like urban rangers. I have limited the damage bonus to beasts and humanoids at Tier 1 as that is what a low level ranger should be most familiar with. At L2 they get their fighting style and an “ambush” ability - 1st round attacks that hit foes that have not had their turn yet are treated as critical hits. At L3 they get their subclass abilities. L4 - Feat L5 - 2nd attack + you get to select 3 more types of creatures you get your ranger bonus damage against. L6 - subclass ability. ( note - hunter’s prey as written extends but doesn’t conflict with the L1 tracking information) L7 - Roving - your speed creases by 10’ ( and your climbing and swimming speeds increase by 3’). In addition, you and your party can move over difficult terrain at normal speed ( no extra movement costs). L8 - Feat L9 - expertise (if for no other reason than to keep up with the bard and rogue); also you select one of the three “ranger skills” (nature/survival/stealth) and get a +2/tier to that skill. L10 - subclass ability L11 - tireless, you also get to select 3 more creature types that you get your ranger damage bonus against. Hide in plain sight: if you take 5 minutes to put together a cammoflage system for yourself you can add 2 to stealth checks to move without being detected and +5 to hide checks even in plain sight for the next 8 hours. If you are involved in combat during this time you need to take an additional 5 minutes to restore your cammoflage. After 8 hours your cammoflage looses its effectiveness and must be stored. L12 - Feat L13 - Vanish - PB times per long rest you are able to call on primal forces to turn you invisible. You may move while invisible but attacks and spellcasting render you visible. L14 - subclass ability L15 - Feral Senses - your connection to the primal forces allow you to detect everything within 30 feet of you. You know the location of invisible and even Ethereal creatures in that range and they do not get advantage on attacks against you, neither do you have disadvantage on attacks against them even if they are invisible or you are blinded and deafened. L16 - Feat L17 - you gain the last two creature types for your ranger damage bonus L18 - Foe slayer - as in the PHB except that it is usable every attack not just once. L19 - Feat L20 Epic Feat
if you keep the flavor text at the start this provides the mechanics and flavor to make the ranger relevant at all levels and even allowing for the creation of “urban rangers” by not taking nature and survival and still being somewhat superior to things like swashbuckler, valor bard and scout rogue in areas where a ranger should be superior.
At L1 <snip> They also get a climbing and swimming speed = 1/3 their walking speed (10’ for a 30’ speed)
lol, this would make Ranger climb and swim slower than all other classes who would have a minimum climb/swim of 15' and the level 7 "upgrade" is still slower than everyone else since the slowest one would still be 15'
Also, adding your level in damage on every attack is way too much
You want to up the speeds to half walking I don’t mind but those are actually realistic speeds. I can walk the length of an Olympic pool 2-3 times in the time it takes me to swim it once at a comfortable pace - probably also true for running it and racking the swim.
As for +1/ level damage is it really that much? At best 3 hits for 1d8+1d6+1d8 (12.5) + 15 (stat) + 3(20) =87.5 damage if all 3 hit.
paladin L20 3hits with TWF with a long and short sword: 1d8+1d8+1d6 +15(stat) + 5d8 (L5smite) + 5d8 + 4 D8 = 12.5+15+ 22.5+22.5+18= 90.5 damage.
why again is the ranger’s damage excessive and the paladin’s is not?
Stat + lvl per attack alone is 25 points of damage per attack before rolling dice at level 20. With 2 weapon fighting that is 75 points of damage a round before adding dice or magical items.
The Paladin must expend a resource for Smites, they are not added to every attack all day every day.
You want to up the speeds to half walking I don’t mind but those are actually realistic speeds. I can walk the length of an Olympic pool 2-3 times in the time it takes me to swim it once at a comfortable pace - probably also true for running it and racking the swim.
What you can do is irrelevant. A UA Dwarf in Plate swims 15' per round and doesn't require a class feature to do it. Your Ranger can't out swim them AND losses out on an actual useful class feature to boot.
Actually what needs to happen is to set some realistic speeds, but yeah that’s not likely to happen. The UA dwarf has to make an athletics check every round a ranger with a swim speed doesn’t. having a human and a sea elf have the same swim speed (30’) and both be only slightly less than the merfolk and reef sharks (40’) is unrealistic. The fastest human swimmers reach that speed only in close to world record times. Swimming is one area where the game rules are very out of whack - perhaps for understandable reasons but are still way off. Same by in large with climb speeds. Humans should have an innate climb speed but it shouldn’t be that large they shouldn’t have an innate swim speed but it is a skill they can learn/acquire in game. Those speeds, even for a ranger should not be equal to their walking speeds. I think 10’ for each matches pretty well with reality but for game purposes i have no problem with 15’ or even 20’ at 15’ the ranger tows the UA dwarf because then the dwarf doesn’t have to make checks to avoid drowning every round, heck at 10’ the ranger tows the dwarf for the same reason.
Stat + lvl per attack alone is 25 points of damage per attack before rolling dice at level 20. With 2 weapon fighting that is 75 points of damage a round before adding dice or magical items.
The Paladin must expend a resource for Smites, they are not added to every attack all day every day.
So don’t just nitpick make a suggestion - what do you think is a reasonable bonus damage for the ranger?
Stat + lvl per attack alone is 25 points of damage per attack before rolling dice at level 20. With 2 weapon fighting that is 75 points of damage a round before adding dice or magical items.
The Paladin must expend a resource for Smites, they are not added to every attack all day every day.
So don’t just nitpick make a suggestion - what do you think is a reasonable bonus damage for the ranger?
WotC has already provided it, 1d6 via Hunter's Mark. I think the UA is pretty good and with a few minor adjustments (Moving Favored Enemy to 2nd for example) it is exactly where it needs to be.
The UA dwarf has to make an athletics check every round a ranger with a swim speed doesn’t.
This is completely wrong
Climbing, Swimming, and Crawling
Each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain) when you’re climbing, swimming, or crawling. You ignore this extra cost if you have a climbing speed and use it to climb or a swimming speed and use it to swim. At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.
The rules don't require the Dwarf to make a check at all. Just crossing a normal body of water doesn't require a check so dropping them both into the pool as described above, the Dwarf swims laps around your Ranger in a race (30' dash for the Dwarf and 20' dash for the Ranger)
The UA dwarf has to make an athletics check every round a ranger with a swim speed doesn’t.
This is completely wrong
Climbing, Swimming, and Crawling
Each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain) when you’re climbing, swimming, or crawling. You ignore this extra cost if you have a climbing speed and use it to climb or a swimming speed and use it to swim. At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.
The rules don't require the Dwarf to make a check at all.
And, it should be noted that according to the rules glossary of this U.A. this is NOT the case anymore. The movement portion is still the same, but the allusions to any skill checks are completely gone. While GM's can do what they want, there is no longer any rule that says we use any skill for swimming or climbing outside our normal movement speed.
The UA dwarf has to make an athletics check every round a ranger with a swim speed doesn’t.
This is completely wrong
Climbing, Swimming, and Crawling
Each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain) when you’re climbing, swimming, or crawling. You ignore this extra cost if you have a climbing speed and use it to climb or a swimming speed and use it to swim. At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.
The rules don't require the Dwarf to make a check at all.
And, it should be noted that according to the rules glossary of this U.A. this is NOT the case anymore. The movement portion is still the same, but the allusions to any skill checks are completely gone. While GM's can do what they want, there is no longer any rule that says we use any skill for swimming or climbing outside our normal movement speed.
Stat + lvl per attack alone is 25 points of damage per attack before rolling dice at level 20. With 2 weapon fighting that is 75 points of damage a round before adding dice or magical items.
The Paladin must expend a resource for Smites, they are not added to every attack all day every day.
So don’t just nitpick make a suggestion - what do you think is a reasonable bonus damage for the ranger?
WotC has already provided it, 1d6 via Hunter's Mark. I think the UA is pretty good and with a few minor adjustments (Moving Favored Enemy to 2nd for example) it is exactly where it needs to be.
I would go one step further and say the no concentration version should be pushed back to level 5. Level 2 you get it free, maybe with one free casting, but level 5 you get to no longer need your concentration. (my concern is the level dips, 5 is a decent investment for any class though.)
Stat + lvl per attack alone is 25 points of damage per attack before rolling dice at level 20. With 2 weapon fighting that is 75 points of damage a round before adding dice or magical items.
The Paladin must expend a resource for Smites, they are not added to every attack all day every day.
So don’t just nitpick make a suggestion - what do you think is a reasonable bonus damage for the ranger?
WotC has already provided it, 1d6 via Hunter's Mark. I think the UA is pretty good and with a few minor adjustments (Moving Favored Enemy to 2nd for example) it is exactly where it needs to be.
I would go one step further and say the no concentration version should be pushed back to level 5. Level 2 you get it free, maybe with one free casting, but level 5 you get to no longer need your concentration. (my concern is the level dips, 5 is a decent investment for any class though.)
I don't know. People should still be able to enjoy playing a Ranger without gimping the class because other people are afraid of other tables cheese dipping. I think moving it to 2nd level is fair, but beyond that is just too much.
Stat + lvl per attack alone is 25 points of damage per attack before rolling dice at level 20. With 2 weapon fighting that is 75 points of damage a round before adding dice or magical items.
The Paladin must expend a resource for Smites, they are not added to every attack all day every day.
So don’t just nitpick make a suggestion - what do you think is a reasonable bonus damage for the ranger?
WotC has already provided it, 1d6 via Hunter's Mark. I think the UA is pretty good and with a few minor adjustments (Moving Favored Enemy to 2nd for example) it is exactly where it needs to be.
I would go one step further and say the no concentration version should be pushed back to level 5. Level 2 you get it free, maybe with one free casting, but level 5 you get to no longer need your concentration. (my concern is the level dips, 5 is a decent investment for any class though.)
I don't know. People should still be able to enjoy playing a Ranger without gimping the class because other people are afraid of other tables cheese dipping. I think moving it to 2nd level is fair, but beyond that is just too much.
Again I do think hunter's mark as a spell should be a free prepare AND a free cast at level 2, and scale to the no concentration by level 5. Until level 5 you only have first level spells anyway as a Ranger so you don't have much better to concentrate on anyway. This just keeps the concentration aspect out of hands of people with higher level spell slots that could possibly abuse it.
I realized while skimming the Ranger's original rules that they don't receive a free damage spike like every other class does. The full casters get their 11th and 17th cantrip modifications, plus Clerics getting 8th level Divine Strikes or Potent Spellcasting. Barbarians get the Rage increases at 9 and 16, plus Brutal Critical at 9, 13, and 17. Fighters get their third attack at 20, and every Fighter subclass just so happens to get more damage at 18 (except Champion, for some reason, and wait, Purple Dragon Knight doesn't even HAVE a level 18 feature? What?). Monk of course ups its Martial Arts at 11 and 17, and Paladin famously gets Improved Divine Smite at 11. Obviously Rogue increases Sneak Attack all the time. But Ranger? No extra damage.
What's more, the Ranger has no way to make its weapon attacks magical, or to deal magical damage with them, besides Hunter's Mark. Zephyr Strike can do it exactly once per casting, similar to a Smite spell, and if you go past the Player's Handbook you can grab Flame Arrows, but that's it. You need a magic weapon, and you don't get the Magic Weapon spell. Ranger isn't alone in this -- several Barbarian, Rogue, and Fighter archetypes also suffer here -- but it is a detriment.
These aren't game-enders, exactly, but they certainly make the Ranger feel like it's lagging behind other martial classes. Even the Paladin, which shares the Ranger's tradeoff of martial progress for spellcasting, gets these things that the Ranger doesn't.
And going back to the 1D&D rules for the Ranger, well, they added the damage spike, by modifying Hunter's Mark for the Ranger class. Now it deals more damage at level 17. And maybe you can say they gave Rangers a magic weapon equivalent by giving them cantrips? So hey, that's nice.
Phb beastmaster had magical damage at 7. (Along with several other newer subclasses)
Also phb ranger had nice cost of living options and free travel activities. That ment they could aquire money faster (if purchasing a magical weapon was absolutely necessary.)
And as previously mentioned some spell damage options.
I would say magical damage was less of a problem for rangers than for other classes.
Nice, I was thinking the same thing. I put it at level one to put Hunter's Mark at level 2, since a lot of people are concerned it's too good for a level 1 dip. But either way would work.
I think moving Favored Enemy to 2nd level would work fairly well with "Roving" in it's place a 1st level.
The time to go from 1st to 2nd is so short anyway.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Okay, at the risk of derailment, I'm going to post some old flavor text that is VERY evocative:
"The ranger's origins can be traced to the time when isolated human settlements were first founded in areas of unclaimed wilderness, or in areas occupied only by savage humanoid times. Those who were at first hunters, trappers, and guides were turned by the necessities of survival into canny wilderness warriors; and ultimately into the principle protectors of the scattered settlements of humans and demi humans, which had to fend off countless humanoid raids.
"Few in number, but effective far beyond the power of local militias or the occasional military patrol of a ruling lord, the rangers have kept a protective watch on the forward frontier of human expansion. There are seldom more than one or two to be found in any place but somehow, as a group, they manage to cover huge areas of the frontier. Where the tide of expansion has been turned back, they are the last to fight a desperate rear guard action against encroaching hordes of evil humanoids.
"In more civilized areas, it is common for kings and wealthy nobles to annex large tracts of forests for personal use. Some are maintained as private game preserves, others are harvested for valuable timber. As a king's wilderness holdings grow, so does the need to protect them. But suitable candidates are hard to come by. Often, from among local woodsmen and hunters, able-bodied and trustworthy retainers are recruited as forest justices or wardens. Skilled in the management of land, wilderness survival, and natural lore, the forest justices are charged with guarding the king's holdings, preserving his game from poachers and his subjects from outlaws and brigands.
"In other places, the local authorities have either lost control or become tyrannical. Perhaps the local order has broken down, and the land is overrun by bandits or robbers. Perhaps a bad ruler has taken over and driven the peasantry beyond all possible tolerance. At such times, a hero may arise, striding out of the wilderness, setting right the wrongs, returning a just overlord to power and then disappearing back into wild and unknown lands. Such is the stuff of legends. Such is the legacy of the ranger."
That's the flavor text that (absent a very gamiest opening paragraph) opened the 2e "Complete Ranger's Handbook."
I think Steg hit on it with his ideas. Rangers need to have good, thematic, and regularly usable abilities. Hunter's Mark is a good stand-in for smite, now if we can fill in some other abilities to tag the wilderness lore. Rangers have had this problem since 3e cracked open all the siloed class abilities and just made them all skills. Suddenly, the rogue could do (almost) everything the ranger could do, and the barbarian could do most of it, plus have Rage.
In a world of wide open multi-classing, rangers need a signature, defining, class ability. Rogues get sneak attack and more. Fighters get multi-attack and piles of feats. Paladins get smite, divine health, lay on hands, and others. Barbarians have rage. Bards have their music. Monks are the unarmored mystical martial artist class. Warlocks have their invocations. Wizards have the best spells. Et cetera.*
But what do Rangers get? Expertise? Shared with Bards and Rogues. Fighting styles? Fighters get more. Feats? Definitely a fighter thing. So where are the ranger's signature, class-defining abilities?
People gravitate to rangers due to their flavor, I think, but I'm not sure we know, or can agree, on what their signature class features should be. I think the nugget of it is guiding, hunting, ambushing, coordinating groups of people, and maybe a bit of out of combat healing (herbalism?). But that's me.
(* I skipped over Clerics and Druids because they honestly get too much. I also skipped sorcerers because the spontaneous casting may, or may not, actually be an advantage compared to Wizards. Jury is out.)
Yes 5e’s ranger flavorings weren’t very good, not arguing that. 4e killed the exploration leg and 5e gave it away so you could ignore it if you had a ranger or Druid along. Same as reliable talent ( and jack of all trades) gives away skill rolls for the party with a rogue (or bard) at higher levels. I don’t have the 2e-3.5e PHBs but I do have the AD&D (1e) one so I went looking at it.
here is what the 1e ranger gets:
1) +1 damage/ ranger level vs giants and humanoids. - welcome to a wonderfully scaled Hunter’s Mark, at higher levels maybe add additional types of monsters.
2) Tracking as an actual “skill” with various bonuses and penalties for terrains conditions etc - it would be easy enough to convert this to DC table for easy DM use.
3) Surprise - old version was rangers surprise foes 50% of the time and are surprised only 1/6th but this could be convertered to something like the gloomstalker or assassin ability and maybe extended to the party as a whole.
4) Spells - AdnD got Druid spells (primal) at L8 and arcane at L9 with a max of D/P: 2L1, 2L2, 2L3 and A: 2L1, 2L2
5) followers (at L10) including low level characters, beasts and a few monsters including dragons - numbers were variable- 2d12 so 2-24 followers
6) multiple attacks: L1-7 1 attack/ rnd, L8-14 3att/2rnds, L15+ 2att/rnd, but they got TWF which basically doubled the number of attacks. In addition against foes with less than a D8 for HP they (like all fighters) got 1attack per fighter level so a R9 vs kobolds got 9 attacks.
there were a few restrictions back then however -
1) must be of good alignment
2) can’t hire mercenaries/henchmen until L8
3) could only keep the treasure they could carry on their person and mount ( so they loved PPs and gems/jewelry)
4) no more than 3 rangers in a party
At L1 instead of favored enemy/hunters mark, I would give the ranger a +1 damage/ ranger level on each strike against beasts and humanoids, along with 3 skills, 1 tool and expertise in 2 skills/tools (and I would list the herbalism kit with the other tools) . They also get a climbing and swimming speed = 1/3 their walking speed (10’ for a 30’ speed)
In addition, IF they take the nature skill they get to add +1/tier to their proficiency bonus to all tracking rolls and rolls to avoid getting lost. In addition, from studying the tracks they find they are able to estimate the number of individuals, how recently they made the tracks, what type of creature they are along with size and basic stats (AC, attacks, etc). IF they take the survival skill they are able to forage and find/make shelter for themselves and up-to 1/tier + PB other people (and mounts) while moving at a normal rate. IF they take the Stealth skill they are able to add +1/tier to their rolls to stalk/tail prey they can see (tracking is following the trail left be a subject you cannot see, stalking/tailing is following a subject you can see without them realizing it.) these +1/tier bonuses allow the ranger to stand out from the other expert classes in the ranger’s core areas (wilderness/travel/exploration) while also allowing for things like urban rangers. I have limited the damage bonus to beasts and humanoids at Tier 1 as that is what a low level ranger should be most familiar with.
At L2 they get their fighting style and an “ambush” ability - 1st round attacks that hit foes that have not had their turn yet are treated as critical hits.
At L3 they get their subclass abilities.
L4 - Feat
L5 - 2nd attack + you get to select 3 more types of creatures you get your ranger bonus damage against.
L6 - subclass ability. ( note - hunter’s prey as written extends but doesn’t conflict with the L1 tracking information)
L7 - Roving - your speed creases by 10’ ( and your climbing and swimming speeds increase by 3’). In addition, you and your party can move over difficult terrain at normal speed ( no extra movement costs).
L8 - Feat
L9 - expertise (if for no other reason than to keep up with the bard and rogue); also you select one of the three “ranger skills” (nature/survival/stealth) and get a +2/tier to that skill.
L10 - subclass ability
L11 - tireless, you also get to select 3 more creature types that you get your ranger damage bonus against. Hide in plain sight: if you take 5 minutes to put together a cammoflage system for yourself you can add 2 to stealth checks to move without being detected and +5 to hide checks even in plain sight for the next 8 hours. If you are involved in combat during this time you need to take an additional 5 minutes to restore your cammoflage. After 8 hours your cammoflage looses its effectiveness and must be stored.
L12 - Feat
L13 - Vanish - PB times per long rest you are able to call on primal forces to turn you invisible. You may move while invisible but attacks and spellcasting render you visible.
L14 - subclass ability
L15 - Feral Senses - your connection to the primal forces allow you to detect everything within 30 feet of you. You know the location of invisible and even Ethereal creatures in that range and they do not get advantage on attacks against you, neither do you have disadvantage on attacks against them even if they are invisible or you are blinded and deafened.
L16 - Feat
L17 - you gain the last two creature types for your ranger damage bonus
L18 - Foe slayer - as in the PHB except that it is usable every attack not just once.
L19 - Feat
L20 Epic Feat
if you keep the flavor text at the start this provides the mechanics and flavor to make the ranger relevant at all levels and even allowing for the creation of “urban rangers” by not taking nature and survival and still being somewhat superior to things like swashbuckler, valor bard and scout rogue in areas where a ranger should be superior.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
At L1 <snip> They also get a climbing and swimming speed = 1/3 their walking speed (10’ for a 30’ speed)
lol, this would make Ranger climb and swim slower than all other classes who would have a minimum climb/swim of 15' and the level 7 "upgrade" is still slower than everyone else since the slowest one would still be 15'
Also, adding your level in damage on every attack is way too much
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You want to up the speeds to half walking I don’t mind but those are actually realistic speeds. I can walk the length of an Olympic pool 2-3 times in the time it takes me to swim it once at a comfortable pace - probably also true for running it and racking the swim.
As for +1/ level damage is it really that much? At best 3 hits for 1d8+1d6+1d8 (12.5) + 15 (stat) + 3(20) =87.5 damage if all 3 hit.
paladin L20 3hits with TWF with a long and short sword: 1d8+1d8+1d6 +15(stat) + 5d8 (L5smite) + 5d8 + 4 D8 = 12.5+15+ 22.5+22.5+18= 90.5 damage.
why again is the ranger’s damage excessive and the paladin’s is not?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Stat + lvl per attack alone is 25 points of damage per attack before rolling dice at level 20. With 2 weapon fighting that is 75 points of damage a round before adding dice or magical items.
The Paladin must expend a resource for Smites, they are not added to every attack all day every day.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
What you can do is irrelevant. A UA Dwarf in Plate swims 15' per round and doesn't require a class feature to do it. Your Ranger can't out swim them AND losses out on an actual useful class feature to boot.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Actually what needs to happen is to set some realistic speeds, but yeah that’s not likely to happen. The UA dwarf has to make an athletics check every round a ranger with a swim speed doesn’t. having a human and a sea elf have the same swim speed (30’) and both be only slightly less than the merfolk and reef sharks (40’) is unrealistic. The fastest human swimmers reach that speed only in close to world record times. Swimming is one area where the game rules are very out of whack - perhaps for understandable reasons but are still way off. Same by in large with climb speeds. Humans should have an innate climb speed but it shouldn’t be that large they shouldn’t have an innate swim speed but it is a skill they can learn/acquire in game. Those speeds, even for a ranger should not be equal to their walking speeds. I think 10’ for each matches pretty well with reality but for game purposes i have no problem with 15’ or even 20’ at 15’ the ranger tows the UA dwarf because then the dwarf doesn’t have to make checks to avoid drowning every round, heck at 10’ the ranger tows the dwarf for the same reason.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
So don’t just nitpick make a suggestion - what do you think is a reasonable bonus damage for the ranger?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
WotC has already provided it, 1d6 via Hunter's Mark. I think the UA is pretty good and with a few minor adjustments (Moving Favored Enemy to 2nd for example) it is exactly where it needs to be.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
This is completely wrong
The rules don't require the Dwarf to make a check at all. Just crossing a normal body of water doesn't require a check so dropping them both into the pool as described above, the Dwarf swims laps around your Ranger in a race (30' dash for the Dwarf and 20' dash for the Ranger)
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
And, it should be noted that according to the rules glossary of this U.A. this is NOT the case anymore. The movement portion is still the same, but the allusions to any skill checks are completely gone. While GM's can do what they want, there is no longer any rule that says we use any skill for swimming or climbing outside our normal movement speed.
Good point
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I would go one step further and say the no concentration version should be pushed back to level 5. Level 2 you get it free, maybe with one free casting, but level 5 you get to no longer need your concentration. (my concern is the level dips, 5 is a decent investment for any class though.)
I don't know. People should still be able to enjoy playing a Ranger without gimping the class because other people are afraid of other tables cheese dipping. I think moving it to 2nd level is fair, but beyond that is just too much.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Again I do think hunter's mark as a spell should be a free prepare AND a free cast at level 2, and scale to the no concentration by level 5. Until level 5 you only have first level spells anyway as a Ranger so you don't have much better to concentrate on anyway. This just keeps the concentration aspect out of hands of people with higher level spell slots that could possibly abuse it.
I realized while skimming the Ranger's original rules that they don't receive a free damage spike like every other class does. The full casters get their 11th and 17th cantrip modifications, plus Clerics getting 8th level Divine Strikes or Potent Spellcasting. Barbarians get the Rage increases at 9 and 16, plus Brutal Critical at 9, 13, and 17. Fighters get their third attack at 20, and every Fighter subclass just so happens to get more damage at 18 (except Champion, for some reason, and wait, Purple Dragon Knight doesn't even HAVE a level 18 feature? What?). Monk of course ups its Martial Arts at 11 and 17, and Paladin famously gets Improved Divine Smite at 11. Obviously Rogue increases Sneak Attack all the time. But Ranger? No extra damage.
What's more, the Ranger has no way to make its weapon attacks magical, or to deal magical damage with them, besides Hunter's Mark. Zephyr Strike can do it exactly once per casting, similar to a Smite spell, and if you go past the Player's Handbook you can grab Flame Arrows, but that's it. You need a magic weapon, and you don't get the Magic Weapon spell. Ranger isn't alone in this -- several Barbarian, Rogue, and Fighter archetypes also suffer here -- but it is a detriment.
These aren't game-enders, exactly, but they certainly make the Ranger feel like it's lagging behind other martial classes. Even the Paladin, which shares the Ranger's tradeoff of martial progress for spellcasting, gets these things that the Ranger doesn't.
And going back to the 1D&D rules for the Ranger, well, they added the damage spike, by modifying Hunter's Mark for the Ranger class. Now it deals more damage at level 17. And maybe you can say they gave Rangers a magic weapon equivalent by giving them cantrips? So hey, that's nice.
Unfortunately, the one school of magic that Rangers are forbidden from using is the damage one haha.
Phb beastmaster had magical damage at 7. (Along with several other newer subclasses)
Also phb ranger had nice cost of living options and free travel activities. That ment they could aquire money faster (if purchasing a magical weapon was absolutely necessary.)
And as previously mentioned some spell damage options.
I would say magical damage was less of a problem for rangers than for other classes.