Taking exact increments instead of 1/2 or 0 affects different characters differently. Someone with only 25ft of movement loses out on all movement by the 5th time, while someone with 45ft of movement still has 20ft at the same point. If there were to be a gradual increment of 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 0 it would be more balanced across all characters and still accomplish a gradual decrease instead of large chunks.
Taking exact increments instead of 1/2 or 0 affects different characters differently. Someone with only 25ft of movement loses out on all movement by the 5th time, while someone with 45ft of movement still has 20ft at the same point. If there were to be a gradual increment of 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 0 it would be more balanced across all characters and still accomplish a gradual decrease instead of large chunks.
d20 Rolls: When you make a d20 Test, you subtract your exhaustion level from the d20 roll.
Spell Save DCs: Subtract your exhaustion level from the Spell save DC of any Spell you cast.
Movement: subtract 5' from your speed for each level of exhaustion
Death: You die if your exhaustion level exceeds 10.
Very good point here about Spell Save DCs, and yet another reason I wish D&D would return to the 4e style of having players roll for their actions, whether they are attacking or casting a spell. It is weird for something to hinder every d20 Test you make, but you can cast spells as if nothing was wrong. This applies to other aspects of the game as well, but because the wording gets clunky I think they have avoided it. Would be much simpler to convert spells into d20 tests for the caster.
From what I hear, the 5e exhaustion rules weren't play tested. And it shows. For an edition that wanted to simplify the game, the levels of exhaustion are very complex. We always had to look up the exhaustion condition because no one could remember the levels. And at six levels you DIE??? Most people pass out before they die of being tired. Exhaustion is more lethal than combat. You get ALL of your hit points back after a long rest but it takes a week to recover from being exhausted? This is not balanced.
I like the new 1DD rules much better. I can imagine monsters (like Shadows) will give out 1 level of exhaustion rather than a strength penalty (again, too confusing for new players to calculate a new ability modifier). I'd love to see players go unconscious after 10 levels of exhaustion. I'd also love to see easier ways to recover exhaustion. Shouldn't a short rest power-nap be enough to recover a level? Works for me in real life. I'll be advocating for these changes in the next survey.
Taking exact increments instead of 1/2 or 0 affects different characters differently. Someone with only 25ft of movement loses out on all movement by the 5th time, while someone with 45ft of movement still has 20ft at the same point. If there were to be a gradual increment of 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 0 it would be more balanced across all characters and still accomplish a gradual decrease instead of large chunks.
Hence my suggestion for using "difficult terrain" rules instead of reducing movement in increments.
Basically, after a certain number of exhaustion points, any movement is considered movement over "difficult terrain".
From what I hear, the 5e exhaustion rules weren't play tested. And it shows. For an edition that wanted to simplify the game, the levels of exhaustion are very complex. We always had to look up the exhaustion condition because no one could remember the levels. And at six levels you DIE??? Most people pass out before they die of being tired. Exhaustion is more lethal than combat. You get ALL of your hit points back after a long rest but it takes a week to recover from being exhausted? This is not balanced.
I like the new 1DD rules much better. I can imagine monsters (like Shadows) will give out 1 level of exhaustion rather than a strength penalty (again, too confusing for new players to calculate a new ability modifier). I'd love to see players go unconscious after 10 levels of exhaustion. I'd also love to see easier ways to recover exhaustion. Shouldn't a short rest power-nap be enough to recover a level? Works for me in real life. I'll be advocating for these changes in the next survey.
There was a lot in 5e that wasn't play tested. Or proofread. Or even just run past a good portion of the players.
I do like the idea of simplifying the penalty system so that it becomes a universal game mechanic. I mentioned an old rule I used in an above thread, so I won't go into it again here. But this does need to be thoroughly worked over before it is put into print.
Also, I think food should have an effect in restoring exhaustion during a short rest. Maybe the Cook feat could add something. Or maybe there could be new "alternative" rules for different ingredients granting different effects when cooked (meat v. veggies, etc). There are a lot of tables out there where this would appeal to at least one player and they are going to want to latch onto this mechanic as part of their PC MO.
Taking exact increments instead of 1/2 or 0 affects different characters differently. Someone with only 25ft of movement loses out on all movement by the 5th time, while someone with 45ft of movement still has 20ft at the same point. If there were to be a gradual increment of 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 0 it would be more balanced across all characters and still accomplish a gradual decrease instead of large chunks.
It won’t matter, all races are moving to 30-foot movement in 1DD.
Taking exact increments instead of 1/2 or 0 affects different characters differently. Someone with only 25ft of movement loses out on all movement by the 5th time, while someone with 45ft of movement still has 20ft at the same point. If there were to be a gradual increment of 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 0 it would be more balanced across all characters and still accomplish a gradual decrease instead of large chunks.
It won’t matter, all races are moving to 30-foot movement in 1DD.
Taking exact increments instead of 1/2 or 0 affects different characters differently. Someone with only 25ft of movement loses out on all movement by the 5th time, while someone with 45ft of movement still has 20ft at the same point. If there were to be a gradual increment of 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 0 it would be more balanced across all characters and still accomplish a gradual decrease instead of large chunks.
It won’t matter, all races are moving to 30-foot movement in 1DD.
Okay, so they’re changing it to all races move at least 30. My point was that short races wouldn’t get shafted if speed were to drop 5 feet for every 3 levels of exhaustion. And so what if some classes get speed boosts?!? That’s kinda their thing, let them be faster even when exhausted.
Okay, so they’re changing it to all races move at least 30. My point was that short races wouldn’t get shafted if speed were to drop 5 feet for every 3 levels of exhaustion. And so what if some classes get speed boosts?!? That’s kinda their thing, let them be faster even when exhausted.
Haha, I'm sorry, I wasn't very helpful. I just thought it was funny that they made the effort to get all PC speeds on the same level, then gave one 5 more feet.
I completely agree with you. For any race or class with more than 30' of movement, they all also thematically feel like ones that could keep going better when exhausted. Yeah, a barbarian can move 20 while everyone else moves 15. I'm totally okay with that. It's far easier than dealing with fractions of speeds. Quarters would only work smoothly if we tracked speed in increments of 4 instead of 5. WotC isn't interested in fractions of speed either, considering the changes to movement types over a turn.
If there is going to be a movement speed penalty from exhaustion, then having it be -5' every 3 levels is my preferred solution. Anything else doesn't really fit with the design philosophy.
I do also like the suggestion of bringing the Chef feat back at level 1. Having a good meal help remove an extra level of exhaustion during a long rest would be a nice extra benefit from the feat. We need more level 1 feats anyway.
old table is changed to the new which makes for some interesting commentary: 1) under the old rules you only had 6 possible levels and then you died - and no one was complaining about it. Now you have 10 levels and folks are complaining What?
So, my complaint with DnD 5e, is that it is very hard to get perma-killed. They just made it:
1.)harder to get killed via Exhaustion, and 2.) Less punishing.
The game is too easy already. Making it easier is kind of an issue. I want to be an adventurer, not a super hero. There are other systems for super heroes already.
I agree that half movement at 3 levels, quarter movement at 6, zero at 10, is the most practical way to handle movement reduction from Exhausted condition. Tabletop play using 5ft spaces can simply round down as D&D always does; so 'half of 45 is 20'.
Exhausted condition should be something that affects monsters too, not just PCs. Firstly, because "the monsters can do what the players can do" is a good rule of thumb, & also because exhausting prey is a common survival tactic. So, a gargantuan creature with 60+ feet of movement should probably become unable to move by exhaustion. Most creatures that logically shouldn't have their movement crippled by the Exhausted condition, are already immune to Exhaustion anyway. Half, quarter, & zero movement, address the existence of different movement speeds (& types) without needing complex wording or any more math than the system already includes for other effects.
Right now, the only things I know of which inflict Exhaustion, are:
Starvation. ("Exhaustion caused by lack of food or water can't be removed until the character eats and drinks the full required amount." Minimum one or 3+ConMod days without food. One level of Exhaustion for 1 day with <1/2 gallon of water, or DC 15 Con save with >1/2 gallon; Two levels of Exhaustion each day thereafter. PHB p185.)
Forced March. (Con save DC 10, plus 1 per hour after 8. PHB p181.)
Extreme Cold. (DC 10 Con save each hour exposed to temperature <1 degrees Fahrenheit, unless naturally adapted, resistant or wearing cold weather gear. DMG p110.)
Extreme Heat. (Con save DC 5, plus 1 per hour after the first, each hour "exposed to the heat and without access to drinkable water" above 100 degrees Fahrenheit, unless naturally adapted or resistant to Fire damage. Disadvantage for heavy clothing & medium or heavy armor. DMG p110.)
Dashing. (DC 10 Con check for each additional Dash after 3+ConMod; all removed upon short or long rest. DMG p252.)
Spells \ Items. (Only two spells, Sickening Radiance & Tenser's Transformation inflict exhaustion; Tenser's inflicts it upon the caster. Ruidium stuff often inflicts exhaustion. Soothsalts are DC 15 for each dose, while the Ring of X-ray Vision is DC 15 for each use after 1 per long rest. The weapon Piercer requires its wielder to eat 2× food, & Living Armor eats half its wearer's Hit Dice, to avoid exhaustion. Each long rest while attuned to it, there is a 3.5% chance the Infernal Machine of Lum the Mad forces Wis saves vs Exhaustion every 4 hours. Three of the 20 Teeth of Dahlver-Nar can induce exhaustion: The Lizardfolk tooth grants +2 AC but forces a DC 15 Con save after each Long Rest; The Oni fang grants 30ft Flying, & Detect Magic at will, but inflicts 1 level of exhaustion whenever less than 3 items are attuned; The Red Dragon fang grants immunity to Fire, & a 26d6 Fire damage conical action with DC 24 Dex save, but it inflicts 2 levels of exhaustion per breath action! These are the only items that cause exhaustion, so far. The Potion of Vitality, Olisuba Leaf, & the Ring of Temporal Salvation, can each relieve exhaustion by some means, while the Horseshoes of a Zephyr prevent exhaustion from Forced March, & Akmon: Hammer of Purphoros grants immunity to it.)
Diseases. (Saprophytic Plague from Candlekeep Mysteries p253, is a 10ft AoE allowing a single DC 20 Con save, or die by exhaustion gained 1 level per 24 hours. "Body aches, nausea, slurred speech & uncontrollable drooling" set in, 1d4 hours after failed save. After the first 24 hours, infected "behave like a zombie" & seem barely aware of their surroundings, with fungus sprouting all over. Infected feel an overriding urge to be around groups of uninfected creatures, & uncomprehendingly repeat the name Xanthoria. "Any creature killed by the saprophytic plague transforms into a lifeless magenta ooze." "Foodstuffs that are exposed to the plague's spores decay or go sour within 2d12 hours, leaving behind a lurid magenta mass of oozing fungi. Eating infected food requires a saving throw as above. Any magic that cures a disease can rid a creature of the saprophytic plague. Casting Purify Food and Drink destroys the infection in foodstuffs." ... Cackle Fever from DMG p257, inflicts just 1 level of exhaustion, & spreads by 10ft AoE with DC 10 Con save... "Sewer Plague is a generic term for a broad category of illnesses that incubate in sewers, refuse heaps, and stagnant swamps, and which are sometimes transmitted by creatures that dwell in those areas, such as rats and otyughs." Every bite, or contact with infected filth & offal, forces a DC 11 Con save, with a fail taking 1d4 days to manifest fatigue, cramps, & exhaustion, regaining only half HP from spending Hit Dice, & no HP from Long Rests. Repeat DC 11 Con save after each Long Rest & gain 1 level of exhaustion on a fail; decreases by 1 level on success. "If a successful saving throw reduces the infected creature's level of exhaustion below 1, the creature recovers from the disease." ... Other diseases which induce exhaustion, include the Gnawing Plague from Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft p153, smog-induced Grackle Lung from Out of the Abyss p54, & my personal favorite: Throat Leeches, Tomb of Annihilation p40.)
Creature traits. (Potentially 28 or more creatures have some means to inflict exhaustion, but only two (both Myconids) are listed in the Monster Manual. MPMM lists the Soul Monger & Sibriex; MTF also had the Oinoloth. The rest are spread through various adventure books & collections, such as Ygorl: Lord of Entropy in MFF.)
I'd like to see some other causes of exhaustion, such as Suffocation. (Presuming OneD&D Exhausted condition rules, I'd think each round Holding Breath could require a DC 3 Con save, on a fail choosing to stop Holding Breath or suffer 1 level of Exhaustion; all removed after 1 full round breathing?)
I'd like to see some other causes of exhaustion, such as Suffocation. (Presuming OneD&D Exhausted condition rules, I'd think each round Holding Breath could require a DC 3 Con save, on a fail choosing to stop Holding Breath or suffer 1 level of Exhaustion; all removed after 1 full round breathing?)
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).
When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.
For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Taking exact increments instead of 1/2 or 0 affects different characters differently. Someone with only 25ft of movement loses out on all movement by the 5th time, while someone with 45ft of movement still has 20ft at the same point. If there were to be a gradual increment of 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 0 it would be more balanced across all characters and still accomplish a gradual decrease instead of large chunks.
I like the user name :)
Very good point here about Spell Save DCs, and yet another reason I wish D&D would return to the 4e style of having players roll for their actions, whether they are attacking or casting a spell. It is weird for something to hinder every d20 Test you make, but you can cast spells as if nothing was wrong. This applies to other aspects of the game as well, but because the wording gets clunky I think they have avoided it. Would be much simpler to convert spells into d20 tests for the caster.
From what I hear, the 5e exhaustion rules weren't play tested. And it shows. For an edition that wanted to simplify the game, the levels of exhaustion are very complex. We always had to look up the exhaustion condition because no one could remember the levels. And at six levels you DIE??? Most people pass out before they die of being tired. Exhaustion is more lethal than combat. You get ALL of your hit points back after a long rest but it takes a week to recover from being exhausted? This is not balanced.
I like the new 1DD rules much better. I can imagine monsters (like Shadows) will give out 1 level of exhaustion rather than a strength penalty (again, too confusing for new players to calculate a new ability modifier). I'd love to see players go unconscious after 10 levels of exhaustion. I'd also love to see easier ways to recover exhaustion. Shouldn't a short rest power-nap be enough to recover a level? Works for me in real life. I'll be advocating for these changes in the next survey.
Hence my suggestion for using "difficult terrain" rules instead of reducing movement in increments.
Basically, after a certain number of exhaustion points, any movement is considered movement over "difficult terrain".
~not a "lazy dungeon master"
There was a lot in 5e that wasn't play tested. Or proofread. Or even just run past a good portion of the players.
I do like the idea of simplifying the penalty system so that it becomes a universal game mechanic. I mentioned an old rule I used in an above thread, so I won't go into it again here. But this does need to be thoroughly worked over before it is put into print.
Also, I think food should have an effect in restoring exhaustion during a short rest. Maybe the Cook feat could add something. Or maybe there could be new "alternative" rules for different ingredients granting different effects when cooked (meat v. veggies, etc). There are a lot of tables out there where this would appeal to at least one player and they are going to want to latch onto this mechanic as part of their PC MO.
~not a "lazy dungeon master"
It won’t matter, all races are moving to 30-foot movement in 1DD.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
But not all classes.
The new Wood Elf moves 35'.
I have nothing to add.
Just throwing that out there.
Okay, so they’re changing it to all races move at least 30. My point was that short races wouldn’t get shafted if speed were to drop 5 feet for every 3 levels of exhaustion. And so what if some classes get speed boosts?!? That’s kinda their thing, let them be faster even when exhausted.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Haha, I'm sorry, I wasn't very helpful. I just thought it was funny that they made the effort to get all PC speeds on the same level, then gave one 5 more feet.
I completely agree with you. For any race or class with more than 30' of movement, they all also thematically feel like ones that could keep going better when exhausted. Yeah, a barbarian can move 20 while everyone else moves 15. I'm totally okay with that. It's far easier than dealing with fractions of speeds. Quarters would only work smoothly if we tracked speed in increments of 4 instead of 5. WotC isn't interested in fractions of speed either, considering the changes to movement types over a turn.
If there is going to be a movement speed penalty from exhaustion, then having it be -5' every 3 levels is my preferred solution. Anything else doesn't really fit with the design philosophy.
I do also like the suggestion of bringing the Chef feat back at level 1. Having a good meal help remove an extra level of exhaustion during a long rest would be a nice extra benefit from the feat. We need more level 1 feats anyway.
Perma death does not mesh well with the personalized minifigure industry, which is a large and growing (and influential) sub-industry.
~not a "lazy dungeon master"
I agree that half movement at 3 levels, quarter movement at 6, zero at 10, is the most practical way to handle movement reduction from Exhausted condition. Tabletop play using 5ft spaces can simply round down as D&D always does; so 'half of 45 is 20'.
Exhausted condition should be something that affects monsters too, not just PCs. Firstly, because "the monsters can do what the players can do" is a good rule of thumb, & also because exhausting prey is a common survival tactic. So, a gargantuan creature with 60+ feet of movement should probably become unable to move by exhaustion. Most creatures that logically shouldn't have their movement crippled by the Exhausted condition, are already immune to Exhaustion anyway. Half, quarter, & zero movement, address the existence of different movement speeds (& types) without needing complex wording or any more math than the system already includes for other effects.
I also strongly agree it's weird that Exhausted condition doesn't explicitly demand CON saves to avoid Unconscious after multiple days.
Also, +1 level of Exhausted from failing a Death Saving throw seems obvious & reasonable to implement.
Right now, the only things I know of which inflict Exhaustion, are:
Starvation. ("Exhaustion caused by lack of food or water can't be removed until the character eats and drinks the full required amount." Minimum one or 3+ConMod days without food. One level of Exhaustion for 1 day with <1/2 gallon of water, or DC 15 Con save with >1/2 gallon; Two levels of Exhaustion each day thereafter. PHB p185.)
Forced March. (Con save DC 10, plus 1 per hour after 8. PHB p181.)
Extreme Cold. (DC 10 Con save each hour exposed to temperature <1 degrees Fahrenheit, unless naturally adapted, resistant or wearing cold weather gear. DMG p110.)
Extreme Heat. (Con save DC 5, plus 1 per hour after the first, each hour "exposed to the heat and without access to drinkable water" above 100 degrees Fahrenheit, unless naturally adapted or resistant to Fire damage. Disadvantage for heavy clothing & medium or heavy armor. DMG p110.)
Dashing. (DC 10 Con check for each additional Dash after 3+ConMod; all removed upon short or long rest. DMG p252.)
Spells \ Items. (Only two spells, Sickening Radiance & Tenser's Transformation inflict exhaustion; Tenser's inflicts it upon the caster. Ruidium stuff often inflicts exhaustion. Soothsalts are DC 15 for each dose, while the Ring of X-ray Vision is DC 15 for each use after 1 per long rest. The weapon Piercer requires its wielder to eat 2× food, & Living Armor eats half its wearer's Hit Dice, to avoid exhaustion. Each long rest while attuned to it, there is a 3.5% chance the Infernal Machine of Lum the Mad forces Wis saves vs Exhaustion every 4 hours. Three of the 20 Teeth of Dahlver-Nar can induce exhaustion: The Lizardfolk tooth grants +2 AC but forces a DC 15 Con save after each Long Rest; The Oni fang grants 30ft Flying, & Detect Magic at will, but inflicts 1 level of exhaustion whenever less than 3 items are attuned; The Red Dragon fang grants immunity to Fire, & a 26d6 Fire damage conical action with DC 24 Dex save, but it inflicts 2 levels of exhaustion per breath action! These are the only items that cause exhaustion, so far. The Potion of Vitality, Olisuba Leaf, & the Ring of Temporal Salvation, can each relieve exhaustion by some means, while the Horseshoes of a Zephyr prevent exhaustion from Forced March, & Akmon: Hammer of Purphoros grants immunity to it.)
Diseases. (Saprophytic Plague from Candlekeep Mysteries p253, is a 10ft AoE allowing a single DC 20 Con save, or die by exhaustion gained 1 level per 24 hours. "Body aches, nausea, slurred speech & uncontrollable drooling" set in, 1d4 hours after failed save. After the first 24 hours, infected "behave like a zombie" & seem barely aware of their surroundings, with fungus sprouting all over. Infected feel an overriding urge to be around groups of uninfected creatures, & uncomprehendingly repeat the name Xanthoria. "Any creature killed by the saprophytic plague transforms into a lifeless magenta ooze." "Foodstuffs that are exposed to the plague's spores decay or go sour within 2d12 hours, leaving behind a lurid magenta mass of oozing fungi. Eating infected food requires a saving throw as above. Any magic that cures a disease can rid a creature of the saprophytic plague. Casting Purify Food and Drink destroys the infection in foodstuffs." ... Cackle Fever from DMG p257, inflicts just 1 level of exhaustion, & spreads by 10ft AoE with DC 10 Con save... "Sewer Plague is a generic term for a broad category of illnesses that incubate in sewers, refuse heaps, and stagnant swamps, and which are sometimes transmitted by creatures that dwell in those areas, such as rats and otyughs." Every bite, or contact with infected filth & offal, forces a DC 11 Con save, with a fail taking 1d4 days to manifest fatigue, cramps, & exhaustion, regaining only half HP from spending Hit Dice, & no HP from Long Rests. Repeat DC 11 Con save after each Long Rest & gain 1 level of exhaustion on a fail; decreases by 1 level on success. "If a successful saving throw reduces the infected creature's level of exhaustion below 1, the creature recovers from the disease." ... Other diseases which induce exhaustion, include the Gnawing Plague from Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft p153, smog-induced Grackle Lung from Out of the Abyss p54, & my personal favorite: Throat Leeches, Tomb of Annihilation p40.)
Creature traits. (Potentially 28 or more creatures have some means to inflict exhaustion, but only two (both Myconids) are listed in the Monster Manual. MPMM lists the Soul Monger & Sibriex; MTF also had the Oinoloth. The rest are spread through various adventure books & collections, such as Ygorl: Lord of Entropy in MFF.)
I'd like to see some other causes of exhaustion, such as Suffocation. (Presuming OneD&D Exhausted condition rules, I'd think each round Holding Breath could require a DC 3 Con save, on a fail choosing to stop Holding Breath or suffer 1 level of Exhaustion; all removed after 1 full round breathing?)
Suffocating
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).
When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.
For example, a creature with a Constitution of 14 can hold its breath for 3 minutes. If it starts suffocating, it has 2 rounds to reach air before it drops to 0 hit points.