It's a curious opinion since most players I know would prefer the game to not have short rests. Consequently, they also want features that reload in short rest, such as pact magic, to be removed. And personally the short rest doesn't bother me, but I do admit that the game would be better if it didn't exist. That would lead to more fun resource management for some class (archetypically the Warlock, but also the Fighter). It would also help make the combat more dangerous, since now it is enough to do a short rest and spend hit dice, to return to being a bag of hit points. But it's not something that makes me lose my mind either. The DM has enough tools to limit the abuse of short rests that some players do (and that ruins some aspects of the game).
"Hey, we're gonna try a thing where no spellcaster gets more than 3 spell slots, but they're all maximum level and they come back on a short rest."
"......okay. I mean, I guess I'm willing to try it. Frankly I'm kinna jazzed, I can't wait to see all the cool new class features the spellcasting classes get to make up for this. It should be a cool experiment at least."
"What?! Noo! Why in the name of all the dead gods of Wildspace would we give spellcasters class features?! Their class feature is Spellcasting!"
"..............you're getting rid of almost all spellcasting. You can't say to a wizard "you can only cast three spells a day" and expect them to still be content with getting, like...four whole class features, including their subclass. If you want to cut way back on the game's magic, then the magic classes are GONNA need stuff to compensate."
"Noooooooooooo! They have magic! They don't need anything else! Sure they've got just a wee little bit less, but - "
"Yeah, nah. 'Very Dissatisfied.' Try again, please. You can't take away eighty percent of a class and then replace it with nothing."
"But - "
"No buts. VD. Back to the drawing board, team."
why did i read this in a snarky tone pfft
anyways...yeah, if you take away casting theyll need stuff to keep up, though i wonder if that would actually function
OP actually offered suggestions to make wizards still feel unique in the very first post...
Yes, but they effectively asked WotC to make spellcasting the same for all classes in then put a minimal amount of difference back in via a few other features. This change would make all casters way too similar, require remodeling all spellcasters and the game system, as well as require WotC to put differentiating features back in just so each class would maintain a small level of difference. In short, all casters would feel very similar with this system, and heaping all the things that differentiate them into new classes features is not guaranteed to work.
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Buff martials. Don't nerf casters by all giving them a weaker spellcasting system to help make up for the inbalance between the two.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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OP actually offered suggestions to make wizards still feel unique in the very first post...
Yes, but they effectively asked WotC to make spellcasting the same for all classes in then put a minimal amount of difference back in via a few other features. This change would make all casters way too similar, require remodeling all spellcasters and the game system, as well as require WotC to put differentiating features back in just so each class would maintain a small level of difference. In short, all casters would feel very similar with this system, and heaping all the things that differentiate them into new classes features is not guaranteed to work.
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Buff martials. Don't nerf casters by all giving them a weaker spellcasting system to help make up for the inbalance between the two.
Sorry I guess I should have used the quote feature. I just dislike the effect it has on these kinds of debates. I was specifically just responding to Yurei's hypothetical conversation saying they would only take away abilities, limit it to 3 times a day, and not give them anything in return. But the original post did specifically give a few examples of ways to give the classes abilities to keep them unique, and it was a short rest mechanic not long rest. I was just saying that they weren't really suggesting giving nothing in return.
As for my personal opinion on it, I've said already that I think everyone has fair points. There are issues with the abilities in the game currently. What everyone perceives as the biggest problem is probably the ones they see the most at their table. You're all right. For your own groups.
My table doesn't have a problem with short rests. My players don't game the system, and I don't punish them for picking short rest characters. I design adventures along the lines that WotC suggests, and give them all opportunities for roughly one short rest every 2 encounters. Only occasionally does the tension of the plot benefit from something different. I think it's a cruel DM that delights in tormenting players.
My table also doesn't have problems with power levels. In fact, our most 'powerful' character, in terms of raw damage output is a warlock/rogue. But every character has something useful to bring to the adventure. One is an artificer with helpful utility and great leadership abilities. One is a paladin that focuses on protection not smites. One is a monk that is good at survival and battlefield control.
That said, I also understand that other tables have players that want to sleep after every battle. And other DMs want to write different kinds of plots. We all have our hands tied by the current rules. Players don't want to die, so they try to stay at peak power by using their character's built in game mechanics. Some characters don't need short rests, so their players might get angry at those who do. Designing adventures with 6 meaningful encounters a day to work with every character is more challenging than it should be. It's a lot of work. Inexperienced DMs struggle with so much of the game already, and the game itself just makes it unnecessarily hard.
It would be great if something changed. Every suggestion would require a lot of changes to the rules. And every option has its drawbacks. What fixes the biggest problem for one person, creates a new problem for another.
As I was saying earlier, I think the real problem is that some classes and abilities use short rests and others use long. It doesn't matter how long the rest is. It could be a 5 minute breather or a week of downtime in an inn. Whatever it is, players will take them when their resources run out. The problem is their resources are all on different timetables. You can make wizards work more like fighters, or the other way around. Either way you have to rewrite whole classes to keep them interesting and balanced. They just need to play by the same rules of resource management.
OP actually offered suggestions to make wizards still feel unique in the very first post...
It's a curious opinion since most players I know would prefer the game to not have short rests. Consequently, they also want features that reload in short rest, such as pact magic, to be removed.
And personally the short rest doesn't bother me, but I do admit that the game would be better if it didn't exist. That would lead to more fun resource management for some class (archetypically the Warlock, but also the Fighter). It would also help make the combat more dangerous, since now it is enough to do a short rest and spend hit dice, to return to being a bag of hit points. But it's not something that makes me lose my mind either. The DM has enough tools to limit the abuse of short rests that some players do (and that ruins some aspects of the game).
I played as warlock long enough. Making other casters suffer the same is just plain evil.
why did i read this in a snarky tone pfft
anyways...yeah, if you take away casting theyll need stuff to keep up, though i wonder if that would actually function
Yes, but they effectively asked WotC to make spellcasting the same for all classes in then put a minimal amount of difference back in via a few other features. This change would make all casters way too similar, require remodeling all spellcasters and the game system, as well as require WotC to put differentiating features back in just so each class would maintain a small level of difference. In short, all casters would feel very similar with this system, and heaping all the things that differentiate them into new classes features is not guaranteed to work.
--------
Buff martials. Don't nerf casters by all giving them a weaker spellcasting system to help make up for the inbalance between the two.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Sorry I guess I should have used the quote feature. I just dislike the effect it has on these kinds of debates. I was specifically just responding to Yurei's hypothetical conversation saying they would only take away abilities, limit it to 3 times a day, and not give them anything in return. But the original post did specifically give a few examples of ways to give the classes abilities to keep them unique, and it was a short rest mechanic not long rest. I was just saying that they weren't really suggesting giving nothing in return.
As for my personal opinion on it, I've said already that I think everyone has fair points. There are issues with the abilities in the game currently. What everyone perceives as the biggest problem is probably the ones they see the most at their table. You're all right. For your own groups.
My table doesn't have a problem with short rests. My players don't game the system, and I don't punish them for picking short rest characters. I design adventures along the lines that WotC suggests, and give them all opportunities for roughly one short rest every 2 encounters. Only occasionally does the tension of the plot benefit from something different. I think it's a cruel DM that delights in tormenting players.
My table also doesn't have problems with power levels. In fact, our most 'powerful' character, in terms of raw damage output is a warlock/rogue. But every character has something useful to bring to the adventure. One is an artificer with helpful utility and great leadership abilities. One is a paladin that focuses on protection not smites. One is a monk that is good at survival and battlefield control.
That said, I also understand that other tables have players that want to sleep after every battle. And other DMs want to write different kinds of plots. We all have our hands tied by the current rules. Players don't want to die, so they try to stay at peak power by using their character's built in game mechanics. Some characters don't need short rests, so their players might get angry at those who do. Designing adventures with 6 meaningful encounters a day to work with every character is more challenging than it should be. It's a lot of work. Inexperienced DMs struggle with so much of the game already, and the game itself just makes it unnecessarily hard.
It would be great if something changed. Every suggestion would require a lot of changes to the rules. And every option has its drawbacks. What fixes the biggest problem for one person, creates a new problem for another.
As I was saying earlier, I think the real problem is that some classes and abilities use short rests and others use long. It doesn't matter how long the rest is. It could be a 5 minute breather or a week of downtime in an inn. Whatever it is, players will take them when their resources run out. The problem is their resources are all on different timetables. You can make wizards work more like fighters, or the other way around. Either way you have to rewrite whole classes to keep them interesting and balanced. They just need to play by the same rules of resource management.