So. Since fighters in 1DD aren't allowed to be good or useful but many folks claim "you can put all that dumb stupid junk in another class!", I figured I'd see what happened if I made some suggestions for putting it in another class. As well as starting some conjecture and discussion for things we might hope to see in one of the game's coolest yet most disappointing classes. Let's get to it, shall we?
First of all:
FOUNDATIONAL CHANGES: The monk's hit die changes to a d10, and it gains training with Light and Medium armor but not shields
Reasoning: there is no bloody-**** reason a class whose entire class fantasy is "rigorous training of body, mind and spirit" should have less fortitude than a fighter, ranger, or paladin. Frankly I'd like to see the monk gain a d12, right up there with the barbarian, as both are classes that focus on honing their physique to the absolute limit. But alas, the d12 hit die is essentially a barbarian class feature.
As well, much like the barbarian, monks would gain the ability to use their signature Unarmored Defense OR rely on armor. Many Shaolin warrior-monks went into battle armored, and individuals of similar-ish martial traditions such as bushido would regularly wear armor. Locking an entire class strictly and solely out of the fun of looting awesome magic armor is not good, and forcing the monk to rely solely on Unarmored Defense puts too much pressure on the class's ability scores. Monks are the most point-starved characters in all of D&D, and there's no bloody reason they have to be.
These two foundational changes are required just to get monks to actually not be laughingstocks as part of the "Warrior" group. They don't gain shield training, but in my view that's part of the monk class identity, and I have something of a solution for that as well.
KI CHANGES: The monk gains ki equal to its proficiency bonus, not its monk level. Ki is used exclusively for big showstopper Power Abilities like Stunning Strike or specific class features; all other monk abilities are redesigned to simply be things monks can do.
Reasoning: Ki will never work when Stunning Strike is worth the same resource expenditure as Step of the Wind. Many of the monk's ki abilities are things many other classes get to just do, and a hardened warrior with a supremely honed and trained body shouldn't need to expend themselves to do it. In my view, Flurry of Blows disappears entirely - monks gain a Martial Artistry bonus action similar to Cunning Action that allows them to make a single unarmed attack (complete with the enhanced rules for Unarmed Attacks in the Expert UA), Dodge, or Dash, and their jump distance is inherently doubled without need of an action as a passive ribbon class feature and a way to encourage Wuxia Leap-Fu Stuff. Monk subclasses can add new actions to Martial Artistry as well as providing new options for using Ki, with the default being Stunning Strike or Diamond Soul.
MARTIAL ARTS CHANGES: Martial Arts die starts at a d6 rather than a d4, and Martial Arts also provides a Martial Parry option - the monk can use its reaction to either add its proficiency bonus to its AC against an incoming attack a'la Defensive Duelist, or to reduce the damage of an incoming attack by its Martial Arts die + its Dexterity modifier. Subclasses expand options for Martial Parry, or alternatively the base class expandes it with options like Deflect Missiles and, eventually, Deflect Magic.
Reasoning: Martial Parry is the monk's replacement for shields, giving them a default use for their reaction and letting them substitute skill for steel in the way monks are supposed to. Martial Arts doesn't wait until fifth level before it stops sucking, letting monks actually take advantage of Martial Arts sooner.
* * *
That's what I've got off the top of my head. It's still pretty basic, not as fleshed out as I'd like, but I'm on a bit of a time crunch at the moment and I'm curious to see what other folks might do with the idea of a Not-Suck Monk. Any other ideas?
I could see a fighting style, yeah. They really want to keep the monk away from Heavy weapons, but again: Shaolin warriors often used weapons like the gwangdao, big honkin'-ass glaive-lookin' things. And frankly I'm not sure what the damage would really be, especially since they're locking Polearm Master away from staves and spears. I could jive with either choice, though the default fighting styles are generally not designed at all for most forms of Munk and giving them a fighting style would be a little weird for many. Hmm.
Historically, a number of heavy weapons have been used in martial arts along with weapons like longswords and bows. With that in mind, Dueling, Two weapon, Archery, Great Weapon, Throwing etc are all good for Monk.
I don't think Monks are too bad currently, but I recognize that a lot of people do. Mostly when it comes to focusing on combat potential over their other abilities. That being said, I do like the core concepts of all of these proposals.
D10 Hit die? I'm all for it.
D6 starting Martial Arts die? I already house rule that in my own games so I definitely like it.
Moving some KI powers to be standard abilities? Great
Martial Weapon proficiency and Fighting Styles? Makes sense, and it's probably already in the stars with the Warriors group.
I'm all for giving monks d10 or even d12 hit points. I mean, these guys are supposed to withstand a maul to the bare torso without flinching while making the IMPOSSIBRU face. Martial arts die starting with a d6 is also a welcome change. More ki and less ki expenditure? This addresses the core problem of the monk. However, I'm against armor proficiency at least in a base class - that is simply against the design. Weapons, maybe, but the whole point of monk is mastering the body to the point that you don't need armor or weapons. I could understand weapons as an alternative to fists, that is not a far cry, but monk wearing armor is like cleric of atheism domain.
Problem with monks not getting any armor training: magic clothes don't exist, and when they do exist they're specifically for casters. Casters get swanky mage robes, martials get badass magic armor, monks get...dick-all bupkis nada. And no, bracers of defense don't count; those are just a shield with extra steps and way too much overhead/opportunity cost.
That and how does a monk deal with being required to raise four stats to very high levels (DX, WS, CN, and ST if they want to shove/grapple) when most characters only have to worry about one or two at high levels and the others to moderate at best? Giving monks armor training lets them relax their horrifying MADness to a degree if the player wants to go that route. Besides, monk armor could be awesome armored robes rather than just clanky battle rattle.
I think the astral self or the hex blade shows how to handle some of that.
1. Give them a base AC maybe it can scale with class level or just have it start at 13. have them add to it their wisdom, let their attacks use wisdom. Now everything is based around wisdom and they only need con, like well every other class. Heck they may be less attribute dependent now as some as they don't technically need dex.
2. It is not hard to add magic items that boost Ac for monks, ki bands that increase their base AC by 1-3. Ki wraps that increase their to hit/damage by 1-3, special ki wraps with additional magic effects like flaming etc. Just because 5e dropped the ball on magic items does not mean 1d&d has to.
3. I agree with d10 Hp and martial weapons, but I'd have them do martial equivalent damage unarmed from the get go so at least d8. Put their damage quickly into the two handed weapon wielder level so the slightly worse AC from not having a shield is balanced. Or allow them to switch style something like d6 but your base AC is 15, d10 but base AC is 13 when wielding a one handed weapon with nothing in your other hand its 15 when either dual wielding or wielding a two handed martial weapon its AC 13. Changing styles is a bonus action in combat, you can start combat in a style without needing a bonus action. You play a monk so you can punch through dragons if the damage is less than a weapon, you just use a weapon.
Problem with monks not getting any armor training: magic clothes don't exist, and when they do exist they're specifically for casters. Casters get swanky mage robes, martials get badass magic armor, monks get...dick-all bupkis nada. And no, bracers of defense don't count; those are just a shield with extra steps and way too much overhead/opportunity cost.
That and how does a monk deal with being required to raise four stats to very high levels (DX, WS, CN, and ST if they want to shove/grapple) when most characters only have to worry about one or two at high levels and the others to moderate at best? Giving monks armor training lets them relax their horrifying MADness to a degree if the player wants to go that route. Besides, monk armor could be awesome armored robes rather than just clanky battle rattle.
Oh, I'm well aware of monk's itemization issue. As a matter of fact, monk class used to be my first love in times of yore when I threw this mantle of letters upon myself. The very idea of beating the shit out of enemies with your bare fists in a state of perfect mental clarity resonated with me. But I digress. The armor class problem, I believe is easily solved if you redesign Unarmored Defense feature appropriately. Say, let it set monk's armor class to 13+Dex modifier, unless your Wisdom modifier is +4 or higher, in which case it's 10+WisMod+DexMod. Or 10+PB+Dex. It's not that difficult so emulate average AC progression of other martials by juggling numbers and modifiers around, and I believe it will be right to do so while taking into account all the magic items that monk normally has no access to. After all, in 3.5e monk's unarmed damage went up to 1d20 to compete with magic weapons.
A lot of ideas for improving monk were listed Here in this thread. In the thread I believe I mentioned possibly going to a Ki-less monk and using the PB per day limit on some abilities or keep Ki and only use it for Subclass features and make base monk abilities without Ki expenditure.
I could see giving a monk armor proficiency but would prefer not. Either, as was mentioned above, give the Dex+PB to AC or a set AC that scales (tier 1 13+Dex, tier 2 14 +Dex, etc). Maybe a subclass that gives the armor proficiency.
And I still think Way of the Open Hands “Open Hand Technique” should be a core monk feature and give Open Hand something else to replace it
Edit: can’t wait for them to get fighting styles and them being warrior feats. I can finally have my shuriken throwing ninja monk with darts, archery and thrown weapon fighting styles.
Thought on Flurry of blows: Treat ii like finesse weapons. When you make an unarmed strike, as part of your attack action. immediately make 2 additional unarmed attack as part of that attack action.
Can limit it by.
1) With Immediate the character will need to make the 2 attacks after attack action WITHOUT being able to attack, move, then Flurry.
2) Can only flurry on first round per combat.
Thoughts on Martial Arts: Make them Maneuvers (Like battle master). May also limit maneuvers to Monk Subclasses.
Yeah, I imagine that part of the new Monks will specify that they treat their unarmed attacks like the new Light weapon property. In one form or another. I'm not sure how they'll handle Flurry of Blows specifically yet.
The more I ruminate on it, the more I feel like a lot depends on what the monk is allowed to do as a bonus action. I know people hate the idea of both armored monks and "free" access to Dodge, but if you're not going to allow a Frontline Melee Class to wear armor OR use shields OR have decent HP? Then you can allow it to make up for the triple whammy of suck by allowing it to impose disadvantage without excessive cost. You still have to give up mobility or offense to get that Dodge, and if you want monks to feel good in the thick of melee combat you need to give them a way to survive it. Easy Dodge is a monkish way of doing so that doesn't conflict with people's weird notions that martial artists don't bother with protective gear.
Hmm, I dunno. Theme aside, getting a free dodge bonus action in combat isn't a very good design, because you'll just do it by default every round, for the whole combat. Giving every enemy attack a disadvantage is too good, it has to have alternatives with an equal amount of oomph. Usually, features like that let you give only one incoming attack a disadvantage, and even that fighting style was nerfed to -2 to attack for Nyarlathotep knows what reason - probably so that no one ever takes it again.
Anyway, I'd just rack up monks' hp to d10 or d12 and change Unarmored Defense AC formula so that it measures up to a knight in magic armor of the same level.
I think there's ways of doing it; BA Dodge could could start out with a resource cost or some other limiting factor, and could gradually improve as either standard progression or some other feature that grants options for customization a la the Warlock, which in turn could allow for other options that might then be able to compete with it.
Make the now BA unarmed strike part of the attack action like the new light weapon property. FoB can still be a BA (maybe just one extra attack for free, or a Ki point, since you get that “extra light weapon property” attack. But make Dodge BA free and you have to sacrifice damage for defense. Strip of the Wind should be free (I’ve said this in other threads including the one I linked above).
Or skip Dodge altogether and make a melee version of deflect missiles
the coolest thing about monks, in my opinion, is deflecting missiles. if they added in a similar melee parry reaction and gained additional reactions as they leveled i'd be pleased enough to overlook the other changes mentioned. they're good changes, but they're not slapping blades out of the air.
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The problem with ki points based on proficiency bonus is a 1-level dip in monk will have as much ki as a straight monk of the same level. Seems like class level is better so that characters more dedicated to it are better at it.
I kind of disagree with giving them a fighting style. They basically are a fighting style. The subclass powers get at giving them those kinds of differentiations.
The larger the monk's ki pool, the stronger the tendency will be for them to do the same thing they did with R5e and make everything cost ki, even when it damn well shouldn't. Wizards' R5e assumption that everybody was short resting thirty times a day and that people would play to high levels is what got monks caught in the trap of being overdependent on Ki in the first place. I'd really push for a design where Ki is used only for stuff that really swings battles, as opposed to eighty percent of your class being locked behind your two to six points of Universe Juice you never get back because nobody ever short rests. Stunning Strike is borked to high hell and deserves to be limited/metered, but a lot of what the monk does with Ki really doesn't merit being so ruthlessly limited as Ki forces it to be.
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So. Since fighters in 1DD aren't allowed to be good or useful but many folks claim "you can put all that dumb stupid junk in another class!", I figured I'd see what happened if I made some suggestions for putting it in another class. As well as starting some conjecture and discussion for things we might hope to see in one of the game's coolest yet most disappointing classes. Let's get to it, shall we?
First of all:
FOUNDATIONAL CHANGES:
The monk's hit die changes to a d10, and it gains training with Light and Medium armor but not shields
Reasoning: there is no bloody-**** reason a class whose entire class fantasy is "rigorous training of body, mind and spirit" should have less fortitude than a fighter, ranger, or paladin. Frankly I'd like to see the monk gain a d12, right up there with the barbarian, as both are classes that focus on honing their physique to the absolute limit. But alas, the d12 hit die is essentially a barbarian class feature.
As well, much like the barbarian, monks would gain the ability to use their signature Unarmored Defense OR rely on armor. Many Shaolin warrior-monks went into battle armored, and individuals of similar-ish martial traditions such as bushido would regularly wear armor. Locking an entire class strictly and solely out of the fun of looting awesome magic armor is not good, and forcing the monk to rely solely on Unarmored Defense puts too much pressure on the class's ability scores. Monks are the most point-starved characters in all of D&D, and there's no bloody reason they have to be.
These two foundational changes are required just to get monks to actually not be laughingstocks as part of the "Warrior" group. They don't gain shield training, but in my view that's part of the monk class identity, and I have something of a solution for that as well.
KI CHANGES:
The monk gains ki equal to its proficiency bonus, not its monk level. Ki is used exclusively for big showstopper Power Abilities like Stunning Strike or specific class features; all other monk abilities are redesigned to simply be things monks can do.
Reasoning: Ki will never work when Stunning Strike is worth the same resource expenditure as Step of the Wind. Many of the monk's ki abilities are things many other classes get to just do, and a hardened warrior with a supremely honed and trained body shouldn't need to expend themselves to do it. In my view, Flurry of Blows disappears entirely - monks gain a Martial Artistry bonus action similar to Cunning Action that allows them to make a single unarmed attack (complete with the enhanced rules for Unarmed Attacks in the Expert UA), Dodge, or Dash, and their jump distance is inherently doubled without need of an action as a passive ribbon class feature and a way to encourage Wuxia Leap-Fu Stuff. Monk subclasses can add new actions to Martial Artistry as well as providing new options for using Ki, with the default being Stunning Strike or Diamond Soul.
MARTIAL ARTS CHANGES:
Martial Arts die starts at a d6 rather than a d4, and Martial Arts also provides a Martial Parry option - the monk can use its reaction to either add its proficiency bonus to its AC against an incoming attack a'la Defensive Duelist, or to reduce the damage of an incoming attack by its Martial Arts die + its Dexterity modifier. Subclasses expand options for Martial Parry, or alternatively the base class expandes it with options like Deflect Missiles and, eventually, Deflect Magic.
Reasoning: Martial Parry is the monk's replacement for shields, giving them a default use for their reaction and letting them substitute skill for steel in the way monks are supposed to. Martial Arts doesn't wait until fifth level before it stops sucking, letting monks actually take advantage of Martial Arts sooner.
* * *
That's what I've got off the top of my head. It's still pretty basic, not as fleshed out as I'd like, but I'm on a bit of a time crunch at the moment and I'm curious to see what other folks might do with the idea of a Not-Suck Monk. Any other ideas?
Please do not contact or message me.
I think Monk should also gain Martial Weapons Training and a free Fighting Style.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I could see a fighting style, yeah. They really want to keep the monk away from Heavy weapons, but again: Shaolin warriors often used weapons like the gwangdao, big honkin'-ass glaive-lookin' things. And frankly I'm not sure what the damage would really be, especially since they're locking Polearm Master away from staves and spears. I could jive with either choice, though the default fighting styles are generally not designed at all for most forms of Munk and giving them a fighting style would be a little weird for many. Hmm.
Please do not contact or message me.
Historically, a number of heavy weapons have been used in martial arts along with weapons like longswords and bows. With that in mind, Dueling, Two weapon, Archery, Great Weapon, Throwing etc are all good for Monk.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I don't think Monks are too bad currently, but I recognize that a lot of people do. Mostly when it comes to focusing on combat potential over their other abilities. That being said, I do like the core concepts of all of these proposals.
D10 Hit die? I'm all for it.
D6 starting Martial Arts die? I already house rule that in my own games so I definitely like it.
Moving some KI powers to be standard abilities? Great
Martial Weapon proficiency and Fighting Styles? Makes sense, and it's probably already in the stars with the Warriors group.
I'm all for giving monks d10 or even d12 hit points. I mean, these guys are supposed to withstand a maul to the bare torso without flinching while making the IMPOSSIBRU face. Martial arts die starting with a d6 is also a welcome change. More ki and less ki expenditure? This addresses the core problem of the monk. However, I'm against armor proficiency at least in a base class - that is simply against the design. Weapons, maybe, but the whole point of monk is mastering the body to the point that you don't need armor or weapons. I could understand weapons as an alternative to fists, that is not a far cry, but monk wearing armor is like cleric of atheism domain.
Problem with monks not getting any armor training: magic clothes don't exist, and when they do exist they're specifically for casters. Casters get swanky mage robes, martials get badass magic armor, monks get...dick-all bupkis nada. And no, bracers of defense don't count; those are just a shield with extra steps and way too much overhead/opportunity cost.
That and how does a monk deal with being required to raise four stats to very high levels (DX, WS, CN, and ST if they want to shove/grapple) when most characters only have to worry about one or two at high levels and the others to moderate at best? Giving monks armor training lets them relax their horrifying MADness to a degree if the player wants to go that route. Besides, monk armor could be awesome armored robes rather than just clanky battle rattle.
Please do not contact or message me.
I think the astral self or the hex blade shows how to handle some of that.
1. Give them a base AC maybe it can scale with class level or just have it start at 13. have them add to it their wisdom, let their attacks use wisdom. Now everything is based around wisdom and they only need con, like well every other class. Heck they may be less attribute dependent now as some as they don't technically need dex.
2. It is not hard to add magic items that boost Ac for monks, ki bands that increase their base AC by 1-3. Ki wraps that increase their to hit/damage by 1-3, special ki wraps with additional magic effects like flaming etc. Just because 5e dropped the ball on magic items does not mean 1d&d has to.
3. I agree with d10 Hp and martial weapons, but I'd have them do martial equivalent damage unarmed from the get go so at least d8. Put their damage quickly into the two handed weapon wielder level so the slightly worse AC from not having a shield is balanced. Or allow them to switch style something like d6 but your base AC is 15, d10 but base AC is 13 when wielding a one handed weapon with nothing in your other hand its 15 when either dual wielding or wielding a two handed martial weapon its AC 13. Changing styles is a bonus action in combat, you can start combat in a style without needing a bonus action. You play a monk so you can punch through dragons if the damage is less than a weapon, you just use a weapon.
Oh, I'm well aware of monk's itemization issue. As a matter of fact, monk class used to be my first love in times of yore when I threw this mantle of letters upon myself. The very idea of beating the shit out of enemies with your bare fists in a state of perfect mental clarity resonated with me. But I digress. The armor class problem, I believe is easily solved if you redesign Unarmored Defense feature appropriately. Say, let it set monk's armor class to 13+Dex modifier, unless your Wisdom modifier is +4 or higher, in which case it's 10+WisMod+DexMod. Or 10+PB+Dex. It's not that difficult so emulate average AC progression of other martials by juggling numbers and modifiers around, and I believe it will be right to do so while taking into account all the magic items that monk normally has no access to. After all, in 3.5e monk's unarmed damage went up to 1d20 to compete with magic weapons.
A lot of ideas for improving monk were listed Here in this thread. In the thread I believe I mentioned possibly going to a Ki-less monk and using the PB per day limit on some abilities or keep Ki and only use it for Subclass features and make base monk abilities without Ki expenditure.
I could see giving a monk armor proficiency but would prefer not. Either, as was mentioned above, give the Dex+PB to AC or a set AC that scales (tier 1 13+Dex, tier 2 14 +Dex, etc). Maybe a subclass that gives the armor proficiency.
And I still think Way of the Open Hands “Open Hand Technique” should be a core monk feature and give Open Hand something else to replace it
Edit: can’t wait for them to get fighting styles and them being warrior feats. I can finally have my shuriken throwing ninja monk with darts, archery and thrown weapon fighting styles.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Thought on Flurry of blows: Treat ii like finesse weapons. When you make an unarmed strike, as part of your attack action. immediately make 2 additional unarmed attack as part of that attack action.
Can limit it by.
1) With Immediate the character will need to make the 2 attacks after attack action WITHOUT being able to attack, move, then Flurry.
2) Can only flurry on first round per combat.
Thoughts on Martial Arts: Make them Maneuvers (Like battle master). May also limit maneuvers to Monk Subclasses.
Yeah, I imagine that part of the new Monks will specify that they treat their unarmed attacks like the new Light weapon property. In one form or another. I'm not sure how they'll handle Flurry of Blows specifically yet.
I love all of these ideas Yurei! Great job:)
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HERE.The more I ruminate on it, the more I feel like a lot depends on what the monk is allowed to do as a bonus action. I know people hate the idea of both armored monks and "free" access to Dodge, but if you're not going to allow a Frontline Melee Class to wear armor OR use shields OR have decent HP? Then you can allow it to make up for the triple whammy of suck by allowing it to impose disadvantage without excessive cost. You still have to give up mobility or offense to get that Dodge, and if you want monks to feel good in the thick of melee combat you need to give them a way to survive it. Easy Dodge is a monkish way of doing so that doesn't conflict with people's weird notions that martial artists don't bother with protective gear.
Random bathtub thought for the evening.
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Hmm, I dunno. Theme aside, getting a free dodge bonus action in combat isn't a very good design, because you'll just do it by default every round, for the whole combat. Giving every enemy attack a disadvantage is too good, it has to have alternatives with an equal amount of oomph. Usually, features like that let you give only one incoming attack a disadvantage, and even that fighting style was nerfed to -2 to attack for Nyarlathotep knows what reason - probably so that no one ever takes it again.
Anyway, I'd just rack up monks' hp to d10 or d12 and change Unarmored Defense AC formula so that it measures up to a knight in magic armor of the same level.
I think there's ways of doing it; BA Dodge could could start out with a resource cost or some other limiting factor, and could gradually improve as either standard progression or some other feature that grants options for customization a la the Warlock, which in turn could allow for other options that might then be able to compete with it.
Make the now BA unarmed strike part of the attack action like the new light weapon property. FoB can still be a BA (maybe just one extra attack for free, or a Ki point, since you get that “extra light weapon property” attack. But make Dodge BA free and you have to sacrifice damage for defense. Strip of the Wind should be free (I’ve said this in other threads including the one I linked above).
Or skip Dodge altogether and make a melee version of deflect missiles
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
the coolest thing about monks, in my opinion, is deflecting missiles. if they added in a similar melee parry reaction and gained additional reactions as they leveled i'd be pleased enough to overlook the other changes mentioned. they're good changes, but they're not slapping blades out of the air.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
The problem with ki points based on proficiency bonus is a 1-level dip in monk will have as much ki as a straight monk of the same level. Seems like class level is better so that characters more dedicated to it are better at it.
I kind of disagree with giving them a fighting style. They basically are a fighting style. The subclass powers get at giving them those kinds of differentiations.
Otherwise I like where you’re going with this.
The larger the monk's ki pool, the stronger the tendency will be for them to do the same thing they did with R5e and make everything cost ki, even when it damn well shouldn't. Wizards' R5e assumption that everybody was short resting thirty times a day and that people would play to high levels is what got monks caught in the trap of being overdependent on Ki in the first place. I'd really push for a design where Ki is used only for stuff that really swings battles, as opposed to eighty percent of your class being locked behind your two to six points of Universe Juice you never get back because nobody ever short rests. Stunning Strike is borked to high hell and deserves to be limited/metered, but a lot of what the monk does with Ki really doesn't merit being so ruthlessly limited as Ki forces it to be.
Please do not contact or message me.