Another idea for a Scholar upgrade would be to modify their spellcasting slightly and allow them to cast ritual spells from the Divine spell list even if they do not have them prepared (similar to how a 5e wizard can cast ritual spells from their spellbook even if they are unprepared). At level 9 this would give the scholar much more freedom in what spells they prepare each day while also holding strong to the utility flavor of divining information that scholar evokes.
Alternatively, it could be a fitting upgrade for the Thaumaturge as well.
Excellent idea! I'd say it fits the thaumaturge more, with their focus on spellcasting. The more utility, the better.
I like that Disciple of Life removes super berry. But I'd still like it to apply to concentration heals like healing spirit and aura of vitality. I'd change the language to add the bold part.
Your healing Spells are empowered by life itself. When a Spell you cast with a Spell Slot restores Hit Points to a creature, that creature regains additional Hit Points on the turn you cast the Spell and any turns you are concentrating on the Spell. The additional Hit Points equal 2 plus the Spell’s level.
Another idea for a Scholar upgrade would be to modify their spellcasting slightly and allow them to cast ritual spells from the Divine spell list even if they do not have them prepared (similar to how a 5e wizard can cast ritual spells from their spellbook even if they are unprepared). At level 9 this would give the scholar much more freedom in what spells they prepare each day while also holding strong to the utility flavor of divining information that scholar evokes.
Alternatively, it could be a fitting upgrade for the Thaumaturge as well.
Excellent idea! I'd say it fits the thaumaturge more, with their focus on spellcasting. The more utility, the better.
That, or allow them to pull from another spell list? There are now 6 divine cantrips in the PHB and you get 5 by level 10...
I think the Scholar is more fitting to pull cantrips from another spell list. It matches their theme of study. And it would help it be more a appealing choice.
For a buff of Thaumaturge are various options considering it a specialization for divine magic
Hit an additional target with a cantrip or spell - we saw this in other subclasses
Increase range of cantrip or spell - also seen this before
Healing on cantrip - I think this is very broken
type of passive resistance or aura?
A short rest effect?
Make Channel Divinity stronger?
A higher chance percentage for Divine Intervention or a more limited version. That way, it would replace it, and we can put another feat. Greater Divine Interventions is good enough at that level no need to have a weaker one as a Feature; something else should go there
I think the Scholar is more fitting to pull cantrips from another spell list. It matches their theme of study. And it would help it be more a appealing choice.
I would tie Scholar to ritual Casting to always have various rituals prepared since Clerics conduct rituals and prayers. Or connect it to understanding the Divine magic miracles in an Arcane way.
Thank you so much for doing this, The_Travelling_Cleric! It's a great summary. I never would have noticed these spell changes if you hadn't pointed them out. Some of the spells we lost make me a little sad honestly.
What did Mending ever do to hurt anyone? It's one of my favorite underdog cantrips. Divine casters need more cantrips. And this one was thematically appropriate for a lot of Clerics too. It's like healing, but for things. A lot of religious devotees spend time learning to craft and repair things as part of their training. What a shame.
I understand getting rid of some of the spells that felt more elemental. But some of the removed spells are straight out of real myths and religious stories. They were originally created for the game based on these stories. And others were good for the Cleric's theme of buffing the party. I just can't understand why we lost these:
I actually feel divine intervention is a little weak. At level 11 you have an 11% chance of it succeeding and have to wait a long rest to try again. I know this is currently how it works, but that seems a little lack luster. You could go another 7 levels and never have it actually work until you get the capstone. Which definitely feels good when you get there, but by then it is basically just an extra 9th level casting once every 2d4 days. Which is still good. if it was 2x level than the highest it would get before level 18 would be 34% and I believe this would feel better.
I know people say casters don't need buffs, so this would probably be too much, I just like having features work, and the chance seems to low to me.
The thing to bear in mind too is that it's the DM who chooses what the intervention does, not the player. So that's another point that may or may not work against it.
It is a little less wide open, since it now says "Any Divine Spell is Appropriate."
I'd be tempted to rule that the player can just make the call with that clarification.
I would tie Scholar to ritual Casting to always have various rituals prepared since Clerics conduct rituals and prayers. Or connect it to understanding the Divine magic miracles in an Arcane way.
I don't think it's a good idea to put acane stuff into the basis of a definitive divine class.
I feel like Cleric consensus was reach pretty quick by comparison to the arguments we have seen in other classes.
Divine spells missing mending and maybe one or 2 more,
life cleric could use the first level spells back
Second holy order at level 9 is unsatisfying and it would be better to see your holy order improve.
Other than that, pretty solid.
Divine intervention ability in contest.
does that sum it up about right now?
I think this looks about right. I would say Cleric looks pretty solid overall.
I am not completely happy with the # of prepared spells, but I could live with it. I will recommend that # of prepared spells and their selection should stay as they currently are. That is more a general caster issue than a Cleric issue though.
I feel like Cleric consensus was reach pretty quick by comparison to the arguments we have seen in other classes.
Divine spells missing mending and maybe one or 2 more,
life cleric could use the first level spells back
Second holy order at level 9 is unsatisfying and it would be better to see your holy order improve.
Other than that, pretty solid.
Divine intervention ability in contest.
does that sum it up about right now?
Yeah I think that's most of it! The Cleric has always been my favorite class, so I thought this one was going to be a tough sell for me. But I'm really quite surprised how happy I am with it. The Holy Orders was an inspired bit of design that I'm eager to try. I think some 1st level always-prepared spells could easily go there instead of subclasses. And some advanced versions that build on them for 9th level would be very cool. I miss Mending (and maybe Continual Flame and Sending) but I can live without the rest. All in all very little to complain about. Nice job WotC.
Cleric 1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
I feel like Cleric consensus was reach pretty quick by comparison to the arguments we have seen in other classes.
Divine spells missing mending and maybe one or 2 more,
life cleric could use the first level spells back
Second holy order at level 9 is unsatisfying and it would be better to see your holy order improve.
Other than that, pretty solid.
Divine intervention ability in contest.
does that sum it up about right now?
Yep, pretty much. I'm getting an impression that they want Divine spellcasting to be more about manipulating fate (probabilities) and resisting all sorts of ailments and influences, and Primal to be mostly about material aspect and elements. I think that adding Blade Ward and True Strike would fit Divine theme more, but these cantrips need serious rework to be useful in the first place.
Cleric 1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
Excellent summary. I would definitely agree that at 9th level, there should be the choice of diversifying (taking a second Holy Order) or doubling down on the first. Of course, I think with the options you listed for enhancing the original Holy Order, not many players would choose to diversify (unless you meant that they could take any of the 9th level features even if it is in a different Holy Order from their original choice).
Cleric 1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
Excellent summary. I would definitely agree that at 9th level, there should be the choice of diversifying (taking a second Holy Order) or doubling down on the first. Of course, I think with the options you listed for enhancing the original Holy Order, not many players would choose to diversify (unless you meant that they could take any of the 9th level features even if it is in a different Holy Order from their original choice).
Yeah my level double downs are probably too good, but I wanted them to feel like 9th level feature and since I started with extra attack I needed all the others to be on par with it. Maybe this works better:
9th lvl Protector- You may improve your offensive weapon combat or defensive capabilities. When you take the attack action on your turn you may attack one additional time as part of the same action. Or as a bonus action you may bolster your AC adding by your proficiency bonus to it until the start of your next turn. You may only use one of those options per turn and expend a use of this feature when you use either option. You may use this feature proficiency bonus times and regain all uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times and regain uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
This is probably more in line with the power they would expect a 9th level feature to give and still leave the option of choosing a different 2nd lvl Holy Order not seem like a blatant mistake.
Cleric 1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
Excellent summary. I would definitely agree that at 9th level, there should be the choice of diversifying (taking a second Holy Order) or doubling down on the first. Of course, I think with the options you listed for enhancing the original Holy Order, not many players would choose to diversify (unless you meant that they could take any of the 9th level features even if it is in a different Holy Order from their original choice).
Yeah my level double downs are probably too good, but I wanted them to feel like 9th level feature and since I started with extra attack I needed all the others to be on par with it. Maybe this works better:
9th lvl Protector- You may improve your offensive weapon combat or defensive capabilities. When you take the attack action on your turn you may attack one additional time as part of the same action. Or as a bonus action you may bolster your AC adding by your proficiency bonus to it until the start of your next turn. You may only use one of those options per turn and expend a use of this feature when you use either option. You may use this feature proficiency bonus times and regain all uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times and regain uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
This is probably more in line with the power they would expect a 9th level feature to give and still leave the option of choosing a different 2nd lvl Holy Order not seem like a blatant mistake.
I would replace
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark
9th lvl Thaumaturge - you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage of divine spell list cantrips.
Cleric 1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
Excellent summary. I would definitely agree that at 9th level, there should be the choice of diversifying (taking a second Holy Order) or doubling down on the first. Of course, I think with the options you listed for enhancing the original Holy Order, not many players would choose to diversify (unless you meant that they could take any of the 9th level features even if it is in a different Holy Order from their original choice).
Yeah my level double downs are probably too good, but I wanted them to feel like 9th level feature and since I started with extra attack I needed all the others to be on par with it. Maybe this works better:
9th lvl Protector- You may improve your offensive weapon combat or defensive capabilities. When you take the attack action on your turn you may attack one additional time as part of the same action. Or as a bonus action you may bolster your AC adding by your proficiency bonus to it until the start of your next turn. You may only use one of those options per turn and expend a use of this feature when you use either option. You may use this feature proficiency bonus times and regain all uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times and regain uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
This is probably more in line with the power they would expect a 9th level feature to give and still leave the option of choosing a different 2nd lvl Holy Order not seem like a blatant mistake.
I would replace
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark
9th lvl Thaumaturge - you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage of divine spell list cantrips.
So just Sacred Flame. That would be the worst 9th level ability for sure.
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Excellent idea! I'd say it fits the thaumaturge more, with their focus on spellcasting. The more utility, the better.
Protector - Close combat specialist
Scholar - The Face of the party/skill specialist/roleplay
Thaumaturge - The Magic combat specialist
It would be lovely if, at the 9th level, we got to specialize more like they are doing with the build-up/stacking of feats.
I like that Disciple of Life removes super berry. But I'd still like it to apply to concentration heals like healing spirit and aura of vitality. I'd change the language to add the bold part.
That, or allow them to pull from another spell list? There are now 6 divine cantrips in the PHB and you get 5 by level 10...
Nah, I think that'll go against the theme. Thaumaturge deepens their connection with the divine, not with something else.
I think the Scholar is more fitting to pull cantrips from another spell list. It matches their theme of study. And it would help it be more a appealing choice.
For a buff of Thaumaturge are various options considering it a specialization for divine magic
I would tie Scholar to ritual Casting to always have various rituals prepared since Clerics conduct rituals and prayers. Or connect it to understanding the Divine magic miracles in an Arcane way.
Perhaps these will belong to the Nature Domain?
It is a little less wide open, since it now says "Any Divine Spell is Appropriate."
I'd be tempted to rule that the player can just make the call with that clarification.
I don't think it's a good idea to put acane stuff into the basis of a definitive divine class.
I feel like Cleric consensus was reach pretty quick by comparison to the arguments we have seen in other classes.
Divine spells missing mending and maybe one or 2 more,
life cleric could use the first level spells back
Second holy order at level 9 is unsatisfying and it would be better to see your holy order improve.
Other than that, pretty solid.
Divine intervention ability in contest.
does that sum it up about right now?
I think this looks about right. I would say Cleric looks pretty solid overall.
I am not completely happy with the # of prepared spells, but I could live with it. I will recommend that # of prepared spells and their selection should stay as they currently are. That is more a general caster issue than a Cleric issue though.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yeah I think that's most of it! The Cleric has always been my favorite class, so I thought this one was going to be a tough sell for me. But I'm really quite surprised how happy I am with it. The Holy Orders was an inspired bit of design that I'm eager to try. I think some 1st level always-prepared spells could easily go there instead of subclasses. And some advanced versions that build on them for 9th level would be very cool. I miss Mending (and maybe Continual Flame and Sending) but I can live without the rest. All in all very little to complain about. Nice job WotC.
Cleric
1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
Yep, pretty much. I'm getting an impression that they want Divine spellcasting to be more about manipulating fate (probabilities) and resisting all sorts of ailments and influences, and Primal to be mostly about material aspect and elements. I think that adding Blade Ward and True Strike would fit Divine theme more, but these cantrips need serious rework to be useful in the first place.
Excellent summary. I would definitely agree that at 9th level, there should be the choice of diversifying (taking a second Holy Order) or doubling down on the first. Of course, I think with the options you listed for enhancing the original Holy Order, not many players would choose to diversify (unless you meant that they could take any of the 9th level features even if it is in a different Holy Order from their original choice).
Yeah my level double downs are probably too good, but I wanted them to feel like 9th level feature and since I started with extra attack I needed all the others to be on par with it. Maybe this works better:
9th lvl Protector- You may improve your offensive weapon combat or defensive capabilities. When you take the attack action on your turn you may attack one additional time as part of the same action. Or as a bonus action you may bolster your AC adding by your proficiency bonus to it until the start of your next turn. You may only use one of those options per turn and expend a use of this feature when you use either option. You may use this feature proficiency bonus times and regain all uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times and regain uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
This is probably more in line with the power they would expect a 9th level feature to give and still leave the option of choosing a different 2nd lvl Holy Order not seem like a blatant mistake.
I would replace
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark9th lvl Thaumaturge - you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage of divine spell list cantrips.
So just Sacred Flame. That would be the worst 9th level ability for sure.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master