Cleric 1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
Excellent summary. I would definitely agree that at 9th level, there should be the choice of diversifying (taking a second Holy Order) or doubling down on the first. Of course, I think with the options you listed for enhancing the original Holy Order, not many players would choose to diversify (unless you meant that they could take any of the 9th level features even if it is in a different Holy Order from their original choice).
Yeah my level double downs are probably too good, but I wanted them to feel like 9th level feature and since I started with extra attack I needed all the others to be on par with it. Maybe this works better:
9th lvl Protector- You may improve your offensive weapon combat or defensive capabilities. When you take the attack action on your turn you may attack one additional time as part of the same action. Or as a bonus action you may bolster your AC adding by your proficiency bonus to it until the start of your next turn. You may only use one of those options per turn and expend a use of this feature when you use either option. You may use this feature proficiency bonus times and regain all uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times and regain uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
This is probably more in line with the power they would expect a 9th level feature to give and still leave the option of choosing a different 2nd lvl Holy Order not seem like a blatant mistake.
So if we allow protector clerics to have unlimited shield spell equivalent uses per day, while wearing heavy armor and a shield, why would anyone play any other tank when they can be a full caster with 26 AC every round (31 if they dip sorc for shield spell too)?
Cleric 1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
Excellent summary. I would definitely agree that at 9th level, there should be the choice of diversifying (taking a second Holy Order) or doubling down on the first. Of course, I think with the options you listed for enhancing the original Holy Order, not many players would choose to diversify (unless you meant that they could take any of the 9th level features even if it is in a different Holy Order from their original choice).
Yeah my level double downs are probably too good, but I wanted them to feel like 9th level feature and since I started with extra attack I needed all the others to be on par with it. Maybe this works better:
9th lvl Protector- You may improve your offensive weapon combat or defensive capabilities. When you take the attack action on your turn you may attack one additional time as part of the same action. Or as a bonus action you may bolster your AC adding by your proficiency bonus to it until the start of your next turn. You may only use one of those options per turn and expend a use of this feature when you use either option. You may use this feature proficiency bonus times and regain all uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times and regain uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
This is probably more in line with the power they would expect a 9th level feature to give and still leave the option of choosing a different 2nd lvl Holy Order not seem like a blatant mistake.
I would replace
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark
9th lvl Thaumaturge - you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage of divine spell list cantrips.
So just Sacred Flame. That would be the worst 9th level ability for sure.
It for sure slip my mind, you are right.
Make it multi target to compensate as well? would be equivalent to extra attack.
Cleric 1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
Excellent summary. I would definitely agree that at 9th level, there should be the choice of diversifying (taking a second Holy Order) or doubling down on the first. Of course, I think with the options you listed for enhancing the original Holy Order, not many players would choose to diversify (unless you meant that they could take any of the 9th level features even if it is in a different Holy Order from their original choice).
Yeah my level double downs are probably too good, but I wanted them to feel like 9th level feature and since I started with extra attack I needed all the others to be on par with it. Maybe this works better:
9th lvl Protector- You may improve your offensive weapon combat or defensive capabilities. When you take the attack action on your turn you may attack one additional time as part of the same action. Or as a bonus action you may bolster your AC adding by your proficiency bonus to it until the start of your next turn. You may only use one of those options per turn and expend a use of this feature when you use either option. You may use this feature proficiency bonus times and regain all uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times and regain uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
This is probably more in line with the power they would expect a 9th level feature to give and still leave the option of choosing a different 2nd lvl Holy Order not seem like a blatant mistake.
I would replace
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark
9th lvl Thaumaturge - you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage of divine spell list cantrips.
So just Sacred Flame. That would be the worst 9th level ability for sure.
It for sure slip my mind, you are right.
Make it multi target to compensate as well? would be equivalent to extra attack.
Each Cleric Subclass is named after a domain of existence that is favored by a god, a pantheon, or a religious order. When you choose a Subclass, you decide why your Cleric chose that domain
This wording makes me think that if they list gods with domains they will be listed as common or recommended domains for that god, but that a god could gran any domain if the player and DM agree on a good reason for it.
So you want to play a cleric of Asmodeus with the life domain ? DM makes note that for some reason Asmodeus wants to keep the tiefling in the party alive for some reason, and has granted this cleric the life domain for that reason.
I will make a call right now and say that no cleric will be getting anything approaching extra attack as a base class feature.
Most likely true. But maybe all warrior classes will get 4 attacks now so giving them a 2nd attack as the level 10 subclass feature wont seem so out of line.
I will make a call right now and say that no cleric will be getting anything approaching extra attack as a base class feature.
Most likely true. But maybe all warrior classes will get 4 attacks now so giving them a 2nd attack as the level 10 subclass feature wont seem so out of line.
Maybe, but upping any power for caster classes only blunts any changes made to martial classes to catch them up. If anything we need to work at it from both directions and not move the power floor up for caster classes by adding even more damage and expanding the roles they can play in a group further.
Cleric 1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
Excellent summary. I would definitely agree that at 9th level, there should be the choice of diversifying (taking a second Holy Order) or doubling down on the first. Of course, I think with the options you listed for enhancing the original Holy Order, not many players would choose to diversify (unless you meant that they could take any of the 9th level features even if it is in a different Holy Order from their original choice).
Yeah my level double downs are probably too good, but I wanted them to feel like 9th level feature and since I started with extra attack I needed all the others to be on par with it. Maybe this works better:
9th lvl Protector- You may improve your offensive weapon combat or defensive capabilities. When you take the attack action on your turn you may attack one additional time as part of the same action. Or as a bonus action you may bolster your AC adding by your proficiency bonus to it until the start of your next turn. You may only use one of those options per turn and expend a use of this feature when you use either option. You may use this feature proficiency bonus times and regain all uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times and regain uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
This is probably more in line with the power they would expect a 9th level feature to give and still leave the option of choosing a different 2nd lvl Holy Order not seem like a blatant mistake.
So if we allow protector clerics to have unlimited shield spell equivalent uses per day, while wearing heavy armor and a shield, why would anyone play any other tank when they can be a full caster with 26 AC every round (31 if they dip sorc for shield spell too)?
How is it unlimited? It requires your bonus action and you can only do it a max of 6 times per day when your proficiency bonus reaches that at 17th level, but that means you could never use the additional attack part of the feature. Also since you do this on a bonus action you could waste it since the enemy might not attack you or may do a spell or ability that targets a save and not AC. It also isn’t as good as shield when you get it because it adds your proficiency bonus which is 4 when this comes online. I’m not a game designer, but I play the game and understand the basic mechanics of risk/reward.
Cleric 1st- New channel divinity is good. It also has really good scaling.
2nd- Holy order is great.
3rd- I like moving all subclass to 3rd level. It’s clean and easier to teach new players. All domains should have 1st Level spells on their domain list.
5th- Smite Undead is an improvement, but might need language to explain this damage doesn’t end the turn undead.
7th- Blessed Strikes is simply the better glad they went this route and making part of the base class is also better.
9th- I was happy with a second option, but I see many aren’t, so I would consider both options. You either get and improvement to your first option or you gain can select one of the options you didn’t choose at lvl 2. Improvements: Protector- Extra Attack, Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times long rest. Additionally when you ritual cast a spell you have prepared it takes half the time. Thaumaturge- You regain up to 2 expended uses of Channel Divinity when you complete a short rest. Additionally you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
11th Divine Intervention is always good. Access to the effects of high level spells without expending a spell slot and no worries of a counterspell8. Flaw is you need to know a lot of high level spells to use this most effectively, or trust you DM to know and choose the best for you.
18th Well now you have experience with those spells, but you could cast them yourself
Excellent summary. I would definitely agree that at 9th level, there should be the choice of diversifying (taking a second Holy Order) or doubling down on the first. Of course, I think with the options you listed for enhancing the original Holy Order, not many players would choose to diversify (unless you meant that they could take any of the 9th level features even if it is in a different Holy Order from their original choice).
Yeah my level double downs are probably too good, but I wanted them to feel like 9th level feature and since I started with extra attack I needed all the others to be on par with it. Maybe this works better:
9th lvl Protector- You may improve your offensive weapon combat or defensive capabilities. When you take the attack action on your turn you may attack one additional time as part of the same action. Or as a bonus action you may bolster your AC adding by your proficiency bonus to it until the start of your next turn. You may only use one of those options per turn and expend a use of this feature when you use either option. You may use this feature proficiency bonus times and regain all uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Scholar- Ritual cast any Divine Ritual spell that you could, but did not prepare. You can do this proficiency mod times and regain uses on a long rest.
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark.
This is probably more in line with the power they would expect a 9th level feature to give and still leave the option of choosing a different 2nd lvl Holy Order not seem like a blatant mistake.
I would replace
9th lvl Thaumaturge- you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage or healing when you use Divine Spark
9th lvl Thaumaturge - you may add you Wisdom mod to the damage of divine spell list cantrips.
So just Sacred Flame. That would be the worst 9th level ability for sure.
It for sure slip my mind, you are right.
Make it multi target to compensate as well? would be equivalent to extra attack.
The reason I made it improve divine spark is because the other features I made up are limited to proficiency bonus times per use. Placing it on divine sparks helps increase either damage or healing, also Divine strikes already bolsters your cantrips. Adding your Wis mod and 1d8 to sacred flame might be too good. Making it so you could essentially twin spell sacred flame proficiency bonus times might be an okay replacement, but doesn’t help with healing at all. While I’m not a game designer I wanted to appeal to people with different play styles.
I feel like 1st level channel divinity scaling # of uses and its power on proficiency bonus makes a cleric the best single level dip class we have seen so far. I know this is the direction they seem to be going with more abilities, but I feel like they should make it scale to cleric level, or else your level 13 character (cleric 1) is going to lay down quite a hit with that feature.
I feel like 1st level channel divinity scaling # of uses and its power on proficiency bonus makes a cleric the best single level dip class we have seen so far. I know this is the direction they seem to be going with more abilities, but I feel like they should make it scale to cleric level, or else your level 13 character (cleric 1) is going to lay down quite a hit with that feature.
Or maybe they're cool with that.
At first thought I agreed, but then remembered cantrips scale also. The healing of divine spark could be great, but that maxes out at 6 times per long rest. The damage of divine spark will get out paced by getting a a damage cantrip. Divine spark usage caps at 6 while a cantrip can be used more reliably. Clerics don’t have a good selection of damage dealing cantrips.
I'm pretty concerned about it too. It's something I'm going to test at a few different levels. It's way better than a cantrip.
Firebolt does 1d10 damage if you hit. It scales to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 11, and caps out at 4d10 at level 17. That's 1-10 damage at level 1, and 4-40 at max level.
Divine Spark damage is 2d8 at level 1, 3d8 at level 5, 4d8 at level 9, 5d8 at level 13, and 6d8 at level 17. That's 2-16 damage at level 1, and 6-48 at max. But even better, it still does half damage on a successful save, unlike cantrips. That's guaranteed damage with your action. Inflict Wounds doesn't even do that, and you have to touch someone to cast that spell. This one is at a range and can't miss.
For healing, it's the same pattern. That's like getting free Cure Wounds spells that are automatically upcast. It's almost as good as a second level spell slot Cure Wounds at level 1. And a sixth level Cure Wounds at level 17. You also have to touch to cast Cure Wounds, but not this. And no cantrips can heal.
It can't be compared directly to Inflict Wounds or Cure Wounds, but it's pretty close. The advantages Divine Spark has easily make it at least as good as those. So this is essentially two free castings of a second level upcast Cure Wounds at level 1. Then every time your proficiency bonus goes up, you get another use, cast at a higher level. By level 17 you have six castings of one of these spells, at the equivalent power of casting them with a 6th level spell slot. On top of the sixth level spells you already have by then. If you take the Thaumaturge order, add a few more uses per day to that. That's pretty insane.
If the feature was written this way, it would definitely raise some eyebrows. It's like a limited spell selection Warlock progression, with no need to short rest to get all the slots each day. They're just bonus. The fact that anyone can get access to all of these slots by taking only one level in Cleric is worth thinking about.
I think they could take a page out of their own playtest material and model it after bardic inspiration, where the number of uses scales on proficiency bonus and the power of the feature scales on your class level.
Everything you say is true. You just don't seem as impressed with those numbers coming out of a single level dip as I do.
EDIT: and I might disagree with you about cantrips being used more reliably than channel divinity. It depends on what you mean by that.
Cantrips have versatility in roll type. You can use which works best since a dip in an arcane caster gives you options, or you could keep your class progression and get cantrips via a feat. Attack roll or save against most stats. Not any damage against Str or Cha cantrips, but I can think of at least 1 for all others. You can figure out the targets weakest save or go against AC with cantrips. Also you don’t run out of cantrip use. So even if they save or you miss attack roll you haven’t wasted a resource. I know Divine spark at least does half damage but half damage but the amount of damage doesn’t impress me for an expendable resource. Divine spark at 17th level is average damage 27 with no chance to crit. Fire bolt is 22 average and could crit (if spells can crit in final 1dnd rules). d8 cantrips deal 18 average and d6 cantrips 14 average, but most of them do something in addition to damage and some have attack rolls so could crit. Most importantly cantrips are a consistent source of damage with no cost. I understand that divine spark always dealing some damage can be viewed as more reliable, but I choose the slower vehicle with unlimited gas over a slightly faster vehicle with with a small gas tank.
I'm pretty concerned about it too. It's something I'm going to test at a few different levels. It's way better than a cantrip.
Firebolt does 1d10 damage if you hit. It scales to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 11, and caps out at 4d10 at level 17. That's 1-10 damage at level 1, and 4-40 at max level.
Divine Spark damage is 2d8 at level 1, 3d8 at level 5, 4d8 at level 9, 5d8 at level 13, and 6d8 at level 17. That's 2-16 damage at level 1, and 6-48 at max. But even better, it still does half damage on a successful save, unlike cantrips. That's guaranteed damage with your action. Inflict Wounds doesn't even do that, and you have to touch someone to cast that spell. This one is at a range and can't miss.
For healing, it's the same pattern. That's like getting free Cure Wounds spells that are automatically upcast. It's almost as good as a second level spell slot Cure Wounds at level 1. And a sixth level Cure Wounds at level 17. You also have to touch to cast Cure Wounds, but not this. And no cantrips can heal.
It can't be compared directly to Inflict Wounds or Cure Wounds, but it's pretty close. The advantages Divine Spark has easily make it at least as good as those. So this is essentially two free castings of a second level upcast Cure Wounds at level 1. Then every time your proficiency bonus goes up, you get another use, cast at a higher level. By level 17 you have six castings of one of these spells, at the equivalent power of casting them with a 6th level spell slot. On top of the sixth level spells you already have by then. If you take the Thaumaturge order, add a few more uses per day to that. That's pretty insane.
If the feature was written this way, it would definitely raise some eyebrows. It's like a limited spell selection Warlock progression, with no need to short rest to get all the slots each day. They're just bonus. The fact that anyone can get access to all of these slots by taking only one level in Cleric is worth thinking about.
While I’ll agree it’s close to inflict wounds I can’t say it’s as good as cure wounds. The Spellcasting modifier bonus to cure wounds gives it a stability divine spark lacks. I will say since you I’m really looking at the numbers maybe making it a d6 instead of d8 might give it better balance. An average damage of 27 at 17th level doesn’t impress me, but an average damage of 9 is really good at level 1 especially at range. But it’s limited use so it’s hard for me to worry.
I'm pretty concerned about it too. It's something I'm going to test at a few different levels. It's way better than a cantrip.
Firebolt does 1d10 damage if you hit. It scales to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 11, and caps out at 4d10 at level 17. That's 1-10 damage at level 1, and 4-40 at max level.
Divine Spark damage is 2d8 at level 1, 3d8 at level 5, 4d8 at level 9, 5d8 at level 13, and 6d8 at level 17. That's 2-16 damage at level 1, and 6-48 at max. But even better, it still does half damage on a successful save, unlike cantrips. That's guaranteed damage with your action. Inflict Wounds doesn't even do that, and you have to touch someone to cast that spell. This one is at a range and can't miss.
For healing, it's the same pattern. That's like getting free Cure Wounds spells that are automatically upcast. It's almost as good as a second level spell slot Cure Wounds at level 1. And a sixth level Cure Wounds at level 17. You also have to touch to cast Cure Wounds, but not this. And no cantrips can heal.
It can't be compared directly to Inflict Wounds or Cure Wounds, but it's pretty close. The advantages Divine Spark has easily make it at least as good as those. So this is essentially two free castings of a second level upcast Cure Wounds at level 1. Then every time your proficiency bonus goes up, you get another use, cast at a higher level. By level 17 you have six castings of one of these spells, at the equivalent power of casting them with a 6th level spell slot. On top of the sixth level spells you already have by then. If you take the Thaumaturge order, add a few more uses per day to that. That's pretty insane.
If the feature was written this way, it would definitely raise some eyebrows. It's like a limited spell selection Warlock progression, with no need to short rest to get all the slots each day. They're just bonus. The fact that anyone can get access to all of these slots by taking only one level in Cleric is worth thinking about.
While I’ll agree it’s close to inflict wounds I can’t say it’s as good as cure wounds. The Spellcasting modifier bonus to cure wounds gives it a stability divine spark lacks. I will say since you I’m really looking at the numbers maybe making it a d6 instead of d8 might give it better balance. An average damage of 27 at 17th level doesn’t impress me, but an average damage of 9 is really good at level 1 especially at range. But it’s limited use so it’s hard for me to worry.
At first level, your Cure Wounds is healing 1d8+3. That's 4 - 11 HP, average 8. Divine Spark is 2-16. Since rolling more dice distributes the results in a bell curve instead of the linear distribution of one dice, your Divine Spark is going to average more than 8 about 70% of the time. It's not just a higher possible maximum than Cure Wounds, it's more reliable too.
And it has a 30' range. So it's more reliable, has a higher max healing, and can be cast at a distance. Maybe we should compare it to Healing Word instead. In that case, it heals more than even the max roll of Healing Word 70% of the time. It's like casting Healing Word with a 3rd level slot. Then every time your proficiency bonus goes up, you cast it as if it was 2 spell slots higher - 5th level slot at level 5, 7th level slot at level 9, and so on
This feature is like getting two free spell slots at level 1. You get more slots as you level up, until you get six. Each time you get another slot, all of them become a higher level slot.
Yes they can only cast one spell. But it's a good one. (Two if you count the ranged, never fail Inflict Wounds)
Cantrips are versatile and can be cast without limits sure. But they can't do this kind of reliable damage. And they can never heal. That's why I'm comparing them to leveled spells instead. And it's a pretty strong feature. It's it game breaking? I don't know until I test it. But what I can say for now is that I can't think of a more powerful first level feature that continues to get better as you level, even if you only take one level in the actual class.
I think they could take a page out of their own playtest material and model it after bardic inspiration, where the number of uses scales on proficiency bonus and the power of the feature scales on your class level.
I agree. I still have to test it. But I feel like they should make at least one half of it scale based on Cleric level instead of proficiency bonus.
I'm pretty concerned about it too. It's something I'm going to test at a few different levels. It's way better than a cantrip.
Firebolt does 1d10 damage if you hit. It scales to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 11, and caps out at 4d10 at level 17. That's 1-10 damage at level 1, and 4-40 at max level.
Divine Spark damage is 2d8 at level 1, 3d8 at level 5, 4d8 at level 9, 5d8 at level 13, and 6d8 at level 17. That's 2-16 damage at level 1, and 6-48 at max. But even better, it still does half damage on a successful save, unlike cantrips. That's guaranteed damage with your action. Inflict Wounds doesn't even do that, and you have to touch someone to cast that spell. This one is at a range and can't miss.
For healing, it's the same pattern. That's like getting free Cure Wounds spells that are automatically upcast. It's almost as good as a second level spell slot Cure Wounds at level 1. And a sixth level Cure Wounds at level 17. You also have to touch to cast Cure Wounds, but not this. And no cantrips can heal.
It can't be compared directly to Inflict Wounds or Cure Wounds, but it's pretty close. The advantages Divine Spark has easily make it at least as good as those. So this is essentially two free castings of a second level upcast Cure Wounds at level 1. Then every time your proficiency bonus goes up, you get another use, cast at a higher level. By level 17 you have six castings of one of these spells, at the equivalent power of casting them with a 6th level spell slot. On top of the sixth level spells you already have by then. If you take the Thaumaturge order, add a few more uses per day to that. That's pretty insane.
If the feature was written this way, it would definitely raise some eyebrows. It's like a limited spell selection Warlock progression, with no need to short rest to get all the slots each day. They're just bonus. The fact that anyone can get access to all of these slots by taking only one level in Cleric is worth thinking about.
While I’ll agree it’s close to inflict wounds I can’t say it’s as good as cure wounds. The Spellcasting modifier bonus to cure wounds gives it a stability divine spark lacks. I will say since you I’m really looking at the numbers maybe making it a d6 instead of d8 might give it better balance. An average damage of 27 at 17th level doesn’t impress me, but an average damage of 9 is really good at level 1 especially at range. But it’s limited use so it’s hard for me to worry.
At first level, your Cure Wounds is healing 1d8+3. That's 4 - 11 HP, average 8. Divine Spark is 2-16. Since rolling more dice distributes the results in a bell curve instead of the linear distribution of one dice, your Divine Spark is going to average more than 8 about 70% of the time. It's not just a higher possible maximum than Cure Wounds, it's more reliable too.
And it has a 30' range. So it's more reliable, has a higher max healing, and can be cast at a distance. Maybe we should compare it to Healing Word instead. In that case, it heals more than even the max roll of Healing Word 70% of the time. It's like casting Healing Word with a 3rd level slot. Then every time your proficiency bonus goes up, you cast it as if it was 2 spell slots higher - 5th level slot at level 5, 7th level slot at level 9, and so on
This feature is like getting two free spell slots at level 1. You get more slots as you level up, until you get six. Each time you get another slot, all of them become a higher level slot.
Yes they can only cast one spell. But it's a good one. (Two if you count the ranged, never fail Inflict Wounds)
Cantrips are versatile and can be cast without limits sure. But they can't do this kind of reliable damage. And they can never heal. That's why I'm comparing them to leveled spells instead. And it's a pretty strong feature. It's it game breaking? I don't know until I test it. But what I can say for now is that I can't think of a more powerful first level feature that continues to get better as you level, even if you only take one level in the actual class.
The damage doesn’t impress me at the higher levels. It’s really good at level 1. It uses your action so that makes it less impressive than healing word to me. Healing word also has longer range. Cure wounds improves at level 4 if you take the stat increase. If we are staying full cleric there are definitely better options for healing for your action economy. We are mostly talking about dip potential because if you are full cleric this is suppose to match or improve 5e Channel divinity. Some which get used every battle and some I’ve never seen get used and never heard of anyone using them. It’s similar in power to the Light domain’s 2d10+cleric level damage, but this version allows multiclassing. It’s also far weaker than life cleric’s preserve life, but again this version allows multiclassing. Which is were the numbers start to get crunchy. Another comparison is Celestial Warlock and the Druid that already have a similar feature to this in 5e, but theirs scale with class level and a stat modifier. They chose to limit them to d6 which is why I said maybe that’s better for balance, but both those 5e versions have greater range and are bonus actions. So they aren’t great comparisons. The only problem I see with the power of divine spark is dip potential. For just the cleric class it seems reasonable. Now what I wonder is who needs this damage that would dip Cleric 1. It feels like a weak dip to me unless your party doesn’t have a healer. It would be great after combat, but in action economy I don’t see a reason not to use your better spells or weapon attacks.
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So if we allow protector clerics to have unlimited shield spell equivalent uses per day, while wearing heavy armor and a shield, why would anyone play any other tank when they can be a full caster with 26 AC every round (31 if they dip sorc for shield spell too)?
It for sure slip my mind, you are right.
Make it multi target to compensate as well? would be equivalent to extra attack.
That might work.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Each Cleric Subclass is named after a domain of existence that is favored by a god, a pantheon, or a religious order.
When you choose a Subclass, you decide why your Cleric chose that domain
This wording makes me think that if they list gods with domains they will be listed as common or recommended domains for that god, but that a god could gran any domain if the player and DM agree on a good reason for it.
So you want to play a cleric of Asmodeus with the life domain ?
DM makes note that for some reason Asmodeus wants to keep the tiefling in the party alive for some reason, and has granted this cleric the life domain for that reason.
I will make a call right now and say that no cleric will be getting anything approaching extra attack as a base class feature.
#OpenDnD
Most likely true. But maybe all warrior classes will get 4 attacks now so giving them a 2nd attack as the level 10 subclass feature wont seem so out of line.
Well, yeah, that's stepping on paladins' territory way too much.
Maybe, but upping any power for caster classes only blunts any changes made to martial classes to catch them up. If anything we need to work at it from both directions and not move the power floor up for caster classes by adding even more damage and expanding the roles they can play in a group further.
How is it unlimited? It requires your bonus action and you can only do it a max of 6 times per day when your proficiency bonus reaches that at 17th level, but that means you could never use the additional attack part of the feature. Also since you do this on a bonus action you could waste it since the enemy might not attack you or may do a spell or ability that targets a save and not AC. It also isn’t as good as shield when you get it because it adds your proficiency bonus which is 4 when this comes online. I’m not a game designer, but I play the game and understand the basic mechanics of risk/reward.
The reason I made it improve divine spark is because the other features I made up are limited to proficiency bonus times per use. Placing it on divine sparks helps increase either damage or healing, also Divine strikes already bolsters your cantrips. Adding your Wis mod and 1d8 to sacred flame might be too good. Making it so you could essentially twin spell sacred flame proficiency bonus times might be an okay replacement, but doesn’t help with healing at all. While I’m not a game designer I wanted to appeal to people with different play styles.
I feel like 1st level channel divinity scaling # of uses and its power on proficiency bonus makes a cleric the best single level dip class we have seen so far. I know this is the direction they seem to be going with more abilities, but I feel like they should make it scale to cleric level, or else your level 13 character (cleric 1) is going to lay down quite a hit with that feature.
Or maybe they're cool with that.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
At first thought I agreed, but then remembered cantrips scale also. The healing of divine spark could be great, but that maxes out at 6 times per long rest. The damage of divine spark will get out paced by getting a a damage cantrip. Divine spark usage caps at 6 while a cantrip can be used more reliably. Clerics don’t have a good selection of damage dealing cantrips.
Everything you say is true. You just don't seem as impressed with those numbers coming out of a single level dip as I do.
EDIT: and I might disagree with you about cantrips being used more reliably than channel divinity. It depends on what you mean by that.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'm pretty concerned about it too. It's something I'm going to test at a few different levels. It's way better than a cantrip.
Firebolt does 1d10 damage if you hit. It scales to 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 11, and caps out at 4d10 at level 17. That's 1-10 damage at level 1, and 4-40 at max level.
Divine Spark damage is 2d8 at level 1, 3d8 at level 5, 4d8 at level 9, 5d8 at level 13, and 6d8 at level 17. That's 2-16 damage at level 1, and 6-48 at max. But even better, it still does half damage on a successful save, unlike cantrips. That's guaranteed damage with your action. Inflict Wounds doesn't even do that, and you have to touch someone to cast that spell. This one is at a range and can't miss.
For healing, it's the same pattern. That's like getting free Cure Wounds spells that are automatically upcast. It's almost as good as a second level spell slot Cure Wounds at level 1. And a sixth level Cure Wounds at level 17. You also have to touch to cast Cure Wounds, but not this. And no cantrips can heal.
It can't be compared directly to Inflict Wounds or Cure Wounds, but it's pretty close. The advantages Divine Spark has easily make it at least as good as those. So this is essentially two free castings of a second level upcast Cure Wounds at level 1. Then every time your proficiency bonus goes up, you get another use, cast at a higher level. By level 17 you have six castings of one of these spells, at the equivalent power of casting them with a 6th level spell slot. On top of the sixth level spells you already have by then. If you take the Thaumaturge order, add a few more uses per day to that. That's pretty insane.
If the feature was written this way, it would definitely raise some eyebrows. It's like a limited spell selection Warlock progression, with no need to short rest to get all the slots each day. They're just bonus. The fact that anyone can get access to all of these slots by taking only one level in Cleric is worth thinking about.
I think they could take a page out of their own playtest material and model it after bardic inspiration, where the number of uses scales on proficiency bonus and the power of the feature scales on your class level.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Cantrips have versatility in roll type. You can use which works best since a dip in an arcane caster gives you options, or you could keep your class progression and get cantrips via a feat. Attack roll or save against most stats. Not any damage against Str or Cha cantrips, but I can think of at least 1 for all others. You can figure out the targets weakest save or go against AC with cantrips. Also you don’t run out of cantrip use. So even if they save or you miss attack roll you haven’t wasted a resource. I know Divine spark at least does half damage but half damage but the amount of damage doesn’t impress me for an expendable resource. Divine spark at 17th level is average damage 27 with no chance to crit. Fire bolt is 22 average and could crit (if spells can crit in final 1dnd rules). d8 cantrips deal 18 average and d6 cantrips 14 average, but most of them do something in addition to damage and some have attack rolls so could crit. Most importantly cantrips are a consistent source of damage with no cost. I understand that divine spark always dealing some damage can be viewed as more reliable, but I choose the slower vehicle with unlimited gas over a slightly faster vehicle with with a small gas tank.
While I’ll agree it’s close to inflict wounds I can’t say it’s as good as cure wounds. The Spellcasting modifier bonus to cure wounds gives it a stability divine spark lacks. I will say since you I’m really looking at the numbers maybe making it a d6 instead of d8 might give it better balance. An average damage of 27 at 17th level doesn’t impress me, but an average damage of 9 is really good at level 1 especially at range. But it’s limited use so it’s hard for me to worry.
At first level, your Cure Wounds is healing 1d8+3. That's 4 - 11 HP, average 8. Divine Spark is 2-16. Since rolling more dice distributes the results in a bell curve instead of the linear distribution of one dice, your Divine Spark is going to average more than 8 about 70% of the time. It's not just a higher possible maximum than Cure Wounds, it's more reliable too.
And it has a 30' range. So it's more reliable, has a higher max healing, and can be cast at a distance. Maybe we should compare it to Healing Word instead. In that case, it heals more than even the max roll of Healing Word 70% of the time. It's like casting Healing Word with a 3rd level slot. Then every time your proficiency bonus goes up, you cast it as if it was 2 spell slots higher - 5th level slot at level 5, 7th level slot at level 9, and so on
This feature is like getting two free spell slots at level 1. You get more slots as you level up, until you get six. Each time you get another slot, all of them become a higher level slot.
Yes they can only cast one spell. But it's a good one. (Two if you count the ranged, never fail Inflict Wounds)
Cantrips are versatile and can be cast without limits sure. But they can't do this kind of reliable damage. And they can never heal. That's why I'm comparing them to leveled spells instead. And it's a pretty strong feature. It's it game breaking? I don't know until I test it. But what I can say for now is that I can't think of a more powerful first level feature that continues to get better as you level, even if you only take one level in the actual class.
I agree. I still have to test it. But I feel like they should make at least one half of it scale based on Cleric level instead of proficiency bonus.
The damage doesn’t impress me at the higher levels. It’s really good at level 1. It uses your action so that makes it less impressive than healing word to me. Healing word also has longer range. Cure wounds improves at level 4 if you take the stat increase. If we are staying full cleric there are definitely better options for healing for your action economy. We are mostly talking about dip potential because if you are full cleric this is suppose to match or improve 5e Channel divinity. Some which get used every battle and some I’ve never seen get used and never heard of anyone using them. It’s similar in power to the Light domain’s 2d10+cleric level damage, but this version allows multiclassing. It’s also far weaker than life cleric’s preserve life, but again this version allows multiclassing. Which is were the numbers start to get crunchy. Another comparison is Celestial Warlock and the Druid that already have a similar feature to this in 5e, but theirs scale with class level and a stat modifier. They chose to limit them to d6 which is why I said maybe that’s better for balance, but both those 5e versions have greater range and are bonus actions. So they aren’t great comparisons. The only problem I see with the power of divine spark is dip potential. For just the cleric class it seems reasonable. Now what I wonder is who needs this damage that would dip Cleric 1. It feels like a weak dip to me unless your party doesn’t have a healer. It would be great after combat, but in action economy I don’t see a reason not to use your better spells or weapon attacks.