I’m not sure the old OGL can go away. Unless they found some very good lawyers it’s really hard to remove permissions once they are granted. So Piazo should be okay. They can do something similar to what they did with the GSL. Basically put an agreement in it that once you accept it you will no longer use any older version. So once you agree to 1.1 you could no longer publish content using 5e 1.0 OGL, 4e GSL or 3e OGL. Which could mean that if Piazo decided to make a 1dnd compatible book that might mess with there ability to print anything new for Pathfinder 2e.
I do not want to be too conspiratorial because I am more of a (possibly unfounded) optimist on how 1DnD and any new OGL will turn out in practice, but might it be possible that WotC is allowing really bad-sounding leaks to come out just so the final document seems better for the community by comparison while still allowing the company more control and revenue?
Highly unlikely. IMO it's standard USA "negotiation style" where the powerful side of the negotiation offers the worse possible deal that they think they might have the slimmest shot of getting and the other side has to fight tooth and nail to bring it down to something they are barely able to accept. It's how most negotiations between sides of unequal power play out. Since 3rd party content creators are a disparate bunch of independent contractors they have minimal negotiation power. Thus I expect very few changes to the terms, it is possible we will see the royalty rates decrease if there is a massive concerted push back across the 3PP community so that WotC can appear to be a generous benefactor who is open to negotiations. But I suspect those rates won't decrease by more than 5%. Banning objectionable content I don't see changing, and I doubt reporting earnings will be a sufficient annoyance to be a focus of negotiations.
The BIG question is how WotC is going to deal with Patreon income of 3PP producers, assuming Patreon income is exempted since it isn't people directly paying for 5e Content, then current big publishers of 3PP like Kobold Press could simply move to a Patreon subscription model to escape the royalty fees, however this is untested legal waters as far as I know so who knows what will happen... Likewise, I highly suspect all Kickstarter campaigns going forward will have no rewards beyond the $700K mark as the royalties will eat the entire budget of the rewards.
I do not want to be too conspiratorial because I am more of a (possibly unfounded) optimist on how 1DnD and any new OGL will turn out in practice, but might it be possible that WotC is allowing really bad-sounding leaks to come out just so the final document seems better for the community by comparison while still allowing the company more control and revenue?
Quite frankly, they don't need to do that and it would be silly.
There's allegedly an NDA in place with certain entities as they hammer out the new OGL. Because WotC does want a piece of that pie, and some things we can expect to change. Some is just clearer language. The granting of a license to WotC for your Open Game content was technically always there. That's what share-alike meant. They are getting a little strong-army with that by saying they don't owe compensation for even commercial content (assuming the draft is an accurate representation), and that is disappointing. But Open Game is Open Game, and that's the point. You aren't just sharing with WotC. You're sharing with everyone. It's one big communal pot.
Judging by the article, it looks like a draft that was circulated among the bigger 3PPs. And if there was an NDA, this is probably what it was about. There are FAQs and notes admitting that enough negative feedback will make them reconsider some of the terms. A lot of it is probably some executive's wish list, and they probably forgot that some of these 3PPs are legitimate business partners. Critical Role co-owns two 5th edition books: Explorer's Guide to Wildemount and Call of the Netherdeep, and they're stupid successful. They're also prepared to walk away at any given moment. Penny Arcade co-owns Acquisitions Incorporated, and have you heard of PAX or PAX East? That's them. Neither one needs WotC.
Even Paizo, which has been publishing Pathfinder under the OGL since 2009, has licensed out comics books (Dynamite) and even their own setting (Pinnacle Entertainment Group). You can read Pathfinder stories and continue to play Pathfinder using Savage Worlds, and even have it seamlessly cross over with Deadlands. And Critical Role both began as a home game playing Pathfinder and streamed Deadlands before. They can make the switch within a week of their corporate sponsorship with D&D Beyond ending; however that might come about about. And that's assuming they don't work on their own system, which they could do. Purportedly, some 3PPs are already collaborating on one.
It will, ultimately, come down to the exact terms. Companies might shift their model to limited runs, to avoid paying royalties. They might close their doors altogether, which we saw back in 4E with the GSL. The hobby shrunk by a quarter, and by 2010 WotC lost it's top spot to Paizo. Bottom line, they know more than we do. We have bits and pieces of something which may no longer be in consideration. And worrying about not only isn't our immediate concern, but probably isn't good for our health.
The title of this topic didn’t age well. Lol. Everyone who bashed Ned/Ted, forgive me don’t know his name, might at least owe him an apology. Looking like his theories theories and reports were correct.
The title of this topic didn’t age well. Lol. Everyone who bashed Ned/Ted, forgive me don’t know his name, might at least owe him an apology. Looking like his theories theories and reports were correct.
Just because there are new indicators of wotc/Hasbro problems , It dosen't mean Nerd Imersion/Ted had actionable information or handled it well. I like Ted but often he still has reactionary opinions and further analysis is regularly needed.
The title of this topic didn’t age well. Lol. Everyone who bashed Ned/Ted, forgive me don’t know his name, might at least owe him an apology. Looking like his theories theories and reports were correct.
Just because there are new indicators of wotc/Hasbro problems , It dosen't mean Nerd Imersion/Ted had actionable information or handled it well. I like Ted but often he still has reactionary opinions and further analysis is regularly needed.
But news is reactionary. I don’t think he is a professional journalist by any means. I’m pretty sure he had the theory this would happen months ago. So while it’s an opinion piece I’m pretty sure he always says it’s an opinion. It’s not like he made up a story, or he jumped out with the story first. He literally just shared information that from his opinion came from good sources. I like the guy, mainly because he showed me the 2x speed feature on YouTube and change my life. Lol, but more importantly I just like when people are wrong they admit it. It makes life a lot easier. What’s funny is when I heard him say WotC would do this months ago I was one of the nay sayers. It was all speculation then and I think I might have commented on his channel they would never. Ha I was wrong.
The leak is real peeps, you can find the documents and the lawyers explaining it with ease. 1.1 is currently as bad as it sounds. I've been using D&D Beyond for my campaigns for over 5 years now, if this OGL goes through I'm willing to sacrifice the hundreds I have spent and abandon this tool, Hell I even bought Baldurs Gate 3 years ago when I didn't have a machine good enough to play it, I then got a gaming laptop soley for it. OGL 1.1 as it stands is poison for the community I will never touch a Wizards product again.
The title of this topic didn’t age well. Lol. Everyone who bashed Ned/Ted, forgive me don’t know his name, might at least owe him an apology. Looking like his theories theories and reports were correct.
It isn't actually looking like that. It looked like some of the things he said might be correct, but all we have at this point are unconfirmed leaks. Also, what seemed to me at least to be the most logical conclusion at the time was that Nerd Immersion was wrong, and that is still a likely possibility. You can't blame people for not knowing facts or "leaks" before they got released.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
The leak is real peeps, you can find the documents and the lawyers explaining it with ease. 1.1 is currently as bad as it sounds. I've been using D&D Beyond for my campaigns for over 5 years now, if this OGL goes through I'm willing to sacrifice the hundreds I have spent and abandon this tool, Hell I even bought Baldurs Gate 3 years ago when I didn't have a machine good enough to play it, I then got a gaming laptop soley for it. OGL 1.1 as it stands is poison for the community I will never touch a Wizards product again.
Not every lawyer who has reviewed the alleged draft specializes in Intellectual Property or contract law, and the legal profession is high specialized. I wouldn't trust an estate lawyer to handle a defamation case, for example. And not every lawyer who has reviewed it agrees on how bad it is.
So the best thing we can do is just sit tight and see which way the wind blows. People here have already tried crunching the numbers, and it looks like WotC would gain a pittance in new revenue─assuming nothing else changed. Exhausted good will could absolutely shrink that, and you'd best believe they're aware of that. This is well above any of our pay grades, and I'd rather not make rash decisions.
The title of this topic didn’t age well. Lol. Everyone who bashed Ned/Ted, forgive me don’t know his name, might at least owe him an apology. Looking like his theories theories and reports were correct.
Just because there are new indicators of wotc/Hasbro problems , It dosen't mean Nerd Imersion/Ted had actionable information or handled it well. I like Ted but often he still has reactionary opinions and further analysis is regularly needed.
But news is reactionary. I don’t think he is a professional journalist by any means. I’m pretty sure he had the theory this would happen months ago. So while it’s an opinion piece I’m pretty sure he always says it’s an opinion. It’s not like he made up a story, or he jumped out with the story first. He literally just shared information that from his opinion came from good sources. I like the guy, mainly because he showed me the 2x speed feature on YouTube and change my life. Lol, but more importantly I just like when people are wrong they admit it. It makes life a lot easier. What’s funny is when I heard him say WotC would do this months ago I was one of the nay sayers. It was all speculation then and I think I might have commented on his channel they would never. Ha I was wrong.
Like I indicated, I enjoy Ted's videos but as far as I can tell he is terrible at admiting his own narrow perspective. He also spread alot of the "hasbro is going to sell WotC videos." (He did those better than his first ogl one IMO). Maybe he had more info than he could share at the time but what was presented was incomplete.
The video can both be flawed and have an accurate end conclusion.
Look, its clear what the words as written mean. Its not that complicated. If this OGL goes through I'm done with WoTc.
I think the intent is clear, whether it would hold up in court is hard to say.
They have the right to update the ogl, it can still be revoked if use of it is "perpetual" the 1.0a would need to be irrevocable for creators to be safe. The current 1.1 means WoTc can revoke any creators right to create and monitise D&D "works", works meaning suppliments, rules systems, programs etc based off of WoTc rules system. WoTc would also have the right to take any of said works and publish them anywhere they want without paying royalties. I will say that we should bare in mind it is Hasbro pushing Wizards into this, only humans are this evil, the Illithids at Wizards would never be this evil.
Do remember that it is fully possible (likely even) that these unconfirmed and unverified "leaks" are nothing but inaccurate rumors. At this moment in time, we really don't know. Just because one company said something might happen and a bunch of other people used them as sources doesn't mean that they are correct. I personally am going to wait until Wizards of the Coast confirms or denies these rumors before I start panicking.
I think it is a good idea to make it very clear to WotC and Hasbro that if the leaked OGL or something similar goes through, that they stem to lose more than gain. I doubt WotC or Hasbro will confirm or deny the rumors. If the rumors end up being true, they would want to keep it on the down low while hyping people up for One D&D, so that it is basically too late when people realize it.
Do remember that it is fully possible (likely even) that these unconfirmed and unverified "leaks" are nothing but inaccurate rumors. At this moment in time, we really don't know. Just because one company said something might happen and a bunch of other people used them as sources doesn't mean that they are correct. I personally am going to wait until Wizards of the Coast confirms or denies these rumors before I start panicking.
Kickstarter confirmed them when they spoke on them saying they were not given a special prize and that they haggled WoTc down to get the 25% lowered to 20% for the creators sake.
Do remember that it is fully possible (likely even) that these unconfirmed and unverified "leaks" are nothing but inaccurate rumors. At this moment in time, we really don't know. Just because one company said something might happen and a bunch of other people used them as sources doesn't mean that they are correct. I personally am going to wait until Wizards of the Coast confirms or denies these rumors before I start panicking.
Kickstarter confirmed them when they spoke on them saying they were not given a special prize and that they haggled WoTc down to get the 25% lowered to 20% for the creators sake.
Just to clarify. The leaked document gave the figures 20 and 25 percent. Kickstarter only confirmed that they negotiated a lower rate on behalf of creators. They did not confirm the amount. That doesn't mean it is or isn't those numbers. Just trying to keep the facts straight for everyone with what we know.
Do remember that it is fully possible (likely even) that these unconfirmed and unverified "leaks" are nothing but inaccurate rumors. At this moment in time, we really don't know. Just because one company said something might happen and a bunch of other people used them as sources doesn't mean that they are correct. I personally am going to wait until Wizards of the Coast confirms or denies these rumors before I start panicking.
Kickstarter confirmed them when they spoke on them saying they were not given a special prize and that they haggled WoTc down to get the 25% lowered to 20% for the creators sake.
Just to clarify. The leaked document gave the figures 20 and 25 percent. Kickstarter only confirmed that they negotiated a lower rate on behalf of creators. They did not confirm the amount. That doesn't mean it is or isn't those numbers. Just trying to keep the facts straight for everyone with what we know.
They also didn't say the percentage was wrong, and gave no hint to it being false.
Do remember that it is fully possible (likely even) that these unconfirmed and unverified "leaks" are nothing but inaccurate rumors. At this moment in time, we really don't know. Just because one company said something might happen and a bunch of other people used them as sources doesn't mean that they are correct. I personally am going to wait until Wizards of the Coast confirms or denies these rumors before I start panicking.
Kickstarter confirmed them when they spoke on them saying they were not given a special prize and that they haggled WoTc down to get the 25% lowered to 20% for the creators sake.
Just to clarify. The leaked document gave the figures 20 and 25 percent. Kickstarter only confirmed that they negotiated a lower rate on behalf of creators. They did not confirm the amount. That doesn't mean it is or isn't those numbers. Just trying to keep the facts straight for everyone with what we know.
They also didn't say the percentage was wrong, and gave no hint to it being false.
Try not to read more into silence than is actually there.
No comment means no comment. It could be accurate, or it could be inaccurate. They may be prohibited, by NDA, from discussing it further. Quit the doomsaying.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I’m not sure the old OGL can go away. Unless they found some very good lawyers it’s really hard to remove permissions once they are granted. So Piazo should be okay. They can do something similar to what they did with the GSL. Basically put an agreement in it that once you accept it you will no longer use any older version. So once you agree to 1.1 you could no longer publish content using 5e 1.0 OGL, 4e GSL or 3e OGL. Which could mean that if Piazo decided to make a 1dnd compatible book that might mess with there ability to print anything new for Pathfinder 2e.
Highly unlikely. IMO it's standard USA "negotiation style" where the powerful side of the negotiation offers the worse possible deal that they think they might have the slimmest shot of getting and the other side has to fight tooth and nail to bring it down to something they are barely able to accept. It's how most negotiations between sides of unequal power play out. Since 3rd party content creators are a disparate bunch of independent contractors they have minimal negotiation power. Thus I expect very few changes to the terms, it is possible we will see the royalty rates decrease if there is a massive concerted push back across the 3PP community so that WotC can appear to be a generous benefactor who is open to negotiations. But I suspect those rates won't decrease by more than 5%. Banning objectionable content I don't see changing, and I doubt reporting earnings will be a sufficient annoyance to be a focus of negotiations.
The BIG question is how WotC is going to deal with Patreon income of 3PP producers, assuming Patreon income is exempted since it isn't people directly paying for 5e Content, then current big publishers of 3PP like Kobold Press could simply move to a Patreon subscription model to escape the royalty fees, however this is untested legal waters as far as I know so who knows what will happen... Likewise, I highly suspect all Kickstarter campaigns going forward will have no rewards beyond the $700K mark as the royalties will eat the entire budget of the rewards.
Quite frankly, they don't need to do that and it would be silly.
There's allegedly an NDA in place with certain entities as they hammer out the new OGL. Because WotC does want a piece of that pie, and some things we can expect to change. Some is just clearer language. The granting of a license to WotC for your Open Game content was technically always there. That's what share-alike meant. They are getting a little strong-army with that by saying they don't owe compensation for even commercial content (assuming the draft is an accurate representation), and that is disappointing. But Open Game is Open Game, and that's the point. You aren't just sharing with WotC. You're sharing with everyone. It's one big communal pot.
Judging by the article, it looks like a draft that was circulated among the bigger 3PPs. And if there was an NDA, this is probably what it was about. There are FAQs and notes admitting that enough negative feedback will make them reconsider some of the terms. A lot of it is probably some executive's wish list, and they probably forgot that some of these 3PPs are legitimate business partners. Critical Role co-owns two 5th edition books: Explorer's Guide to Wildemount and Call of the Netherdeep, and they're stupid successful. They're also prepared to walk away at any given moment. Penny Arcade co-owns Acquisitions Incorporated, and have you heard of PAX or PAX East? That's them. Neither one needs WotC.
Even Paizo, which has been publishing Pathfinder under the OGL since 2009, has licensed out comics books (Dynamite) and even their own setting (Pinnacle Entertainment Group). You can read Pathfinder stories and continue to play Pathfinder using Savage Worlds, and even have it seamlessly cross over with Deadlands. And Critical Role both began as a home game playing Pathfinder and streamed Deadlands before. They can make the switch within a week of their corporate sponsorship with D&D Beyond ending; however that might come about about. And that's assuming they don't work on their own system, which they could do. Purportedly, some 3PPs are already collaborating on one.
It will, ultimately, come down to the exact terms. Companies might shift their model to limited runs, to avoid paying royalties. They might close their doors altogether, which we saw back in 4E with the GSL. The hobby shrunk by a quarter, and by 2010 WotC lost it's top spot to Paizo. Bottom line, they know more than we do. We have bits and pieces of something which may no longer be in consideration. And worrying about not only isn't our immediate concern, but probably isn't good for our health.
The title of this topic didn’t age well. Lol. Everyone who bashed Ned/Ted, forgive me don’t know his name, might at least owe him an apology. Looking like his theories theories and reports were correct.
Just because there are new indicators of wotc/Hasbro problems , It dosen't mean Nerd Imersion/Ted had actionable information or handled it well. I like Ted but often he still has reactionary opinions and further analysis is regularly needed.
But news is reactionary. I don’t think he is a professional journalist by any means. I’m pretty sure he had the theory this would happen months ago. So while it’s an opinion piece I’m pretty sure he always says it’s an opinion. It’s not like he made up a story, or he jumped out with the story first. He literally just shared information that from his opinion came from good sources. I like the guy, mainly because he showed me the 2x speed feature on YouTube and change my life. Lol, but more importantly I just like when people are wrong they admit it. It makes life a lot easier. What’s funny is when I heard him say WotC would do this months ago I was one of the nay sayers. It was all speculation then and I think I might have commented on his channel they would never. Ha I was wrong.
The leak is real peeps, you can find the documents and the lawyers explaining it with ease. 1.1 is currently as bad as it sounds. I've been using D&D Beyond for my campaigns for over 5 years now, if this OGL goes through I'm willing to sacrifice the hundreds I have spent and abandon this tool, Hell I even bought Baldurs Gate 3 years ago when I didn't have a machine good enough to play it, I then got a gaming laptop soley for it. OGL 1.1 as it stands is poison for the community I will never touch a Wizards product again.
It isn't actually looking like that. It looked like some of the things he said might be correct, but all we have at this point are unconfirmed leaks. Also, what seemed to me at least to be the most logical conclusion at the time was that Nerd Immersion was wrong, and that is still a likely possibility. You can't blame people for not knowing facts or "leaks" before they got released.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Not every lawyer who has reviewed the alleged draft specializes in Intellectual Property or contract law, and the legal profession is high specialized. I wouldn't trust an estate lawyer to handle a defamation case, for example. And not every lawyer who has reviewed it agrees on how bad it is.
So the best thing we can do is just sit tight and see which way the wind blows. People here have already tried crunching the numbers, and it looks like WotC would gain a pittance in new revenue─assuming nothing else changed. Exhausted good will could absolutely shrink that, and you'd best believe they're aware of that. This is well above any of our pay grades, and I'd rather not make rash decisions.
Like I indicated, I enjoy Ted's videos but as far as I can tell he is terrible at admiting his own narrow perspective. He also spread alot of the "hasbro is going to sell WotC videos." (He did those better than his first ogl one IMO). Maybe he had more info than he could share at the time but what was presented was incomplete.
The video can both be flawed and have an accurate end conclusion.
Look, its clear what the words as written mean. Its not that complicated. If this OGL goes through I'm done with WoTc.
I think the intent is clear, whether it would hold up in court is hard to say.
We don't even have the full text to work with.
They have the right to update the ogl, it can still be revoked if use of it is "perpetual" the 1.0a would need to be irrevocable for creators to be safe. The current 1.1 means WoTc can revoke any creators right to create and monitise D&D "works", works meaning suppliments, rules systems, programs etc based off of WoTc rules system. WoTc would also have the right to take any of said works and publish them anywhere they want without paying royalties. I will say that we should bare in mind it is Hasbro pushing Wizards into this, only humans are this evil, the Illithids at Wizards would never be this evil.
The rest of the text is just to give them rights to our brain matter, no biggie.
Do remember that it is fully possible (likely even) that these unconfirmed and unverified "leaks" are nothing but inaccurate rumors. At this moment in time, we really don't know. Just because one company said something might happen and a bunch of other people used them as sources doesn't mean that they are correct. I personally am going to wait until Wizards of the Coast confirms or denies these rumors before I start panicking.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.I think it is a good idea to make it very clear to WotC and Hasbro that if the leaked OGL or something similar goes through, that they stem to lose more than gain. I doubt WotC or Hasbro will confirm or deny the rumors. If the rumors end up being true, they would want to keep it on the down low while hyping people up for One D&D, so that it is basically too late when people realize it.
Kickstarter confirmed them when they spoke on them saying they were not given a special prize and that they haggled WoTc down to get the 25% lowered to 20% for the creators sake.
Just to clarify. The leaked document gave the figures 20 and 25 percent. Kickstarter only confirmed that they negotiated a lower rate on behalf of creators. They did not confirm the amount. That doesn't mean it is or isn't those numbers. Just trying to keep the facts straight for everyone with what we know.
They also didn't say the percentage was wrong, and gave no hint to it being false.
Try not to read more into silence than is actually there.
No comment means no comment. It could be accurate, or it could be inaccurate. They may be prohibited, by NDA, from discussing it further. Quit the doomsaying.