Yeah as you level up what utility is still needed or useful changes. The challenges that a level 1 or 2 spell is meant for just are not challenges anymore. You wont see more spells you just wont see spells from those levels outside the level independent spells like shield/misty step, which you already saw in the old system.
This was not my experience from playtesting. The types of lower level spells you pick change. Because before, no one looked at what upcasting a utility spell did. After the players truly considered it. As noted Charm person, it isnt a single target charm anymore. Major image becomes a permanent illusion when cast at 6. 100% the types of spells you want change and the types of problems change. There are a lot of level 1 and 2 utility spells that are NEVER taken when all you have is 1st and 2nd level spells, because you need those slots for combat. When you get to 3rd levels you might see them for maybe 2 or 3 levels, and then never again, not because those problems no longer exist, but because there is probably a 3rd or 4th level spell that does the same thing, but better.
Like comprehend languages vs Tongues or silent image vs Major image. Later tiny hut vs magnificent mansion.
Imagine if silent image was just called create image and just scaled to be silent when cast at first, have sound and senses at 3rd and permanent at 6th.
No one is arguing 3rd level spell utility vanishes at 18th level. Because it doesn't. That is 13 levels. You aren't using those slots for combat anymore.
I really encourage everyone to look at the list of 1st and 2nd level spells. You already know you are going to prep the staples, shield, misty step, invisibility. Look at the others, you need 3 more first and 1 more second. I promise you, if you take the time, you can find spells that you never cast that will have utility use that you still face into the highest levels.
I have, the players have and their options sucked and they didn't use them.
As I said, my experience is different. My players had 0 issue finding low level spells that had rare use, but were still used. They weren't as strong as higher level spells, but they were still useful.
Saying that 1st and 2nd level spells are not useful when you are level 11 might as well be saying that half casters dont have useful spells because they only have a few 3rd level spells and all the rest have been out leveled. It is complete non-sense.
Give it time and more practice there are first level spells that scale just fine.
I will give a list later tonight of every first level and second level spell that never loses relevance.
Ya i'm referring to more spells like Teleport, Word of Recall, Heroes Feast, Transport via Plants, Wind Walk, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Temple of the Gods, etc to name a few that may not be taken anymore because there are other spells you may use more often but these could all be very clutch to have in certain situations. Especially for the nicer base options like Magnificent Mansion, Temple of the Gods, you'll never see casters taking these anymore compared to other spells at that level which sucks because they're fun.
Really? I totally disagree, Teleport, Word of Recall, and Transport via Plants are crucial spells for the party to have access to at those levels, unless the DM gives them an NPC to supply them for them, because threats are now global in nature and require a global search for a solution. You're not just going to bump into a CR 20 monster walking down a road through a forest. Magnificent Mansion and Temple of the Gods likewise can be crucial when dealing with NPC allies or avoiding being ambushed by enemies with access to Scrying and Teleport. What I hardly see in my games is high level combat spells, only if the party knows in advance when and where they will be fighting the next day do my casters 'waste' their high level spells on damage dealing spells, the rest of time they are saving them so the party can sleep safely or teleport away in case of emergency.
Heroe's Feast is at risk b/c you'd now need 2 days forewarning of a major battle to be able to prepare it and cast it the night before, then prep a combat spell the day of.
I guess i've found instances where our Cleric would have Heal, Word of Recall and Heroes Feast prepped because for example 4th lvl Cleric spells are pretty mediocre at best and typically our Cleric takes Death Ward and sometimes Divination if needed but would gladly give up learning a 3rd 4th level spell for another utility 6th level spell (which they do).
I agree a Bard who wants Teleport should be able to access Magnificent Mansion as well. Same with a Druid who wants Transport via Plant's and also Wind Walk, both great for travel in different situations, but having to take a long rest before using each one isn't always available, but with One D&D you'll probably see a lot more random long rests occurring because now casters will need to switch out utility spells more often depending on whats needed.
Yeah as you level up what utility is still needed or useful changes. The challenges that a level 1 or 2 spell is meant for just are not challenges anymore. You wont see more spells you just wont see spells from those levels outside the level independent spells like shield/misty step, which you already saw in the old system.
This was not my experience from playtesting. The types of lower level spells you pick change. Because before, no one looked at what upcasting a utility spell did. After the players truly considered it. As noted Charm person, it isnt a single target charm anymore. Major image becomes a permanent illusion when cast at 6. 100% the types of spells you want change and the types of problems change. There are a lot of level 1 and 2 utility spells that are NEVER taken when all you have is 1st and 2nd level spells, because you need those slots for combat. When you get to 3rd levels you might see them for maybe 2 or 3 levels, and then never again, not because those problems no longer exist, but because there is probably a 3rd or 4th level spell that does the same thing, but better.
Like comprehend languages vs Tongues or silent image vs Major image. Later tiny hut vs magnificent mansion.
Imagine if silent image was just called create image and just scaled to be silent when cast at first, have sound and senses at 3rd and permanent at 6th.
No one is arguing 3rd level spell utility vanishes at 18th level. Because it doesn't. That is 13 levels. You aren't using those slots for combat anymore.
I really encourage everyone to look at the list of 1st and 2nd level spells. You already know you are going to prep the staples, shield, misty step, invisibility. Look at the others, you need 3 more first and 1 more second. I promise you, if you take the time, you can find spells that you never cast that will have utility use that you still face into the highest levels.
I have, the players have and their options sucked and they didn't use them.
As I said, my experience is different. My players had 0 issue finding low level spells that had rare use, but were still used. They weren't as strong as higher level spells, but they were still useful.
Saying that 1st and 2nd level spells are not useful when you are level 11 might as well be saying that half casters dont have useful spells because they only have a few 3rd level spells and all the rest have been out leveled. It is complete non-sense.
Give it time and more practice there are first level spells that scale just fine.
I will give a list later tonight of every first level and second level spell that never loses relevance.
I have given it time. Maybe its you that needs to and in the long run you will see how those spells were never really needed to solve the problem, didn't particularity help much and were at best a tiny short cut, basically the leveled up version of prestidigitation to clean your clothes.
Yeah as you level up what utility is still needed or useful changes. The challenges that a level 1 or 2 spell is meant for just are not challenges anymore. You wont see more spells you just wont see spells from those levels outside the level independent spells like shield/misty step, which you already saw in the old system.
This was not my experience from playtesting. The types of lower level spells you pick change. Because before, no one looked at what upcasting a utility spell did. After the players truly considered it. As noted Charm person, it isnt a single target charm anymore. Major image becomes a permanent illusion when cast at 6. 100% the types of spells you want change and the types of problems change. There are a lot of level 1 and 2 utility spells that are NEVER taken when all you have is 1st and 2nd level spells, because you need those slots for combat. When you get to 3rd levels you might see them for maybe 2 or 3 levels, and then never again, not because those problems no longer exist, but because there is probably a 3rd or 4th level spell that does the same thing, but better.
Like comprehend languages vs Tongues or silent image vs Major image. Later tiny hut vs magnificent mansion.
Imagine if silent image was just called create image and just scaled to be silent when cast at first, have sound and senses at 3rd and permanent at 6th.
No one is arguing 3rd level spell utility vanishes at 18th level. Because it doesn't. That is 13 levels. You aren't using those slots for combat anymore.
I really encourage everyone to look at the list of 1st and 2nd level spells. You already know you are going to prep the staples, shield, misty step, invisibility. Look at the others, you need 3 more first and 1 more second. I promise you, if you take the time, you can find spells that you never cast that will have utility use that you still face into the highest levels.
I have, the players have and their options sucked and they didn't use them.
As I said, my experience is different. My players had 0 issue finding low level spells that had rare use, but were still used. They weren't as strong as higher level spells, but they were still useful.
Saying that 1st and 2nd level spells are not useful when you are level 11 might as well be saying that half casters dont have useful spells because they only have a few 3rd level spells and all the rest have been out leveled. It is complete non-sense.
Give it time and more practice there are first level spells that scale just fine.
I will give a list later tonight of every first level and second level spell that never loses relevance.
I have given it time. Maybe its you that needs to and in the long run you will see how those spells were never really needed to solve the problem, didn't particularity help much and were at best a tiny short cut, basically the leveled up version of prestidigitation to clean your clothes.
In general, this is an extremely poor argument. You technically never NEED anything to solve the problem, you don't need spells, you don't need skills you don't need class features, you don't need items. All of these things are just ONE WAY of solving the problem and that is why we are playing roleplaying games to begin with. You dont NEED to teleport to get to the other side of the continent, you have two feet you can walk. Teleporting is just a "tiny short cut". You can play the game without having a single person who can cast spells. You can play the game with only a half-caster whose best spell at level 13 is a single 4th level spell and their 2nd and first level spells are the bulk of their spells. The game is designed in a way that all of these are possible. And if it is POSSIBLE to play with a half-caster that is still casting 1st and 2nd level spells, than it is perfectly viable for a full-caster to cast these same spells with the same level of effect at those levels and have it still "solve" or HELP solve the issue. That doesn't make them USELESS, that makes them niche and INTERESTING.
The party without a charisma caster is going to be greatful for the prepared enhance ability for advantage on their diplomacy checks... that is a second level spell.
Here is the list of first and second level spells that remain USEFUL for the entire life of the campaign
Alter self, Arcane Lock, Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Enthrall, Invisibility, Knock, Locate Object, Magic Aura, Magic Mouth, Misty Step, See Invisibility, Augury, Aid, Lesser Restoration, Prayer of healing, Zone of Truth, Bark skin, Beastsense, Enhance ability, Enlarge/ Reduce, Pass without Trace (2nd)
Remember, that your first and second level spells can still be freely upcast as well. Any spell that deals damage could just be upcast to a higher level spell slot and do ok Damage if you want your higher level slots to be saved for utility. These spells all help in some way with healing, utility, information gathering. Could you solve some of these issues through mundane means with someone that has Expertise in a skill, sure.... if you have someone with expertise in the right skill. If no one has thieves tools or expertise in sleight of hand Knock is going to be just as good at level 18 as it is at level 3. Magic Aura is something you are NEVER going to cast at low levels, but higher levels making a magic item permanently look non-magic is really good and it is not like you need those slots for anything else, heck the suggestion here is that those slots are just for misty step.
@MyDudeicus - if all low level spells stop being useful in your games then I'm sorry to hear that, but WotC's job isn't to design for such edge cases, they have to assume at least some degree of agency on the part of the players. They made spells with the intent that they would be useful at the level you get them, and in a lot of cases stay useful well beyond that. And from 3rd-level onward, spells outdamage even max level cantrips with ease, so your options only keep growing.
I appreciate that you guys like to think you are in the right and everyone who disagrees with you is some wrong edge case, but that just isn't the case. Have a nice day condescending to everyone else, i am out.
I have been playing 5e in multiple campaigns for 3 years this is the number of times I have seen these spells cast, or had players wish they had these spells so they could cast it:
Alarm - 5-6 times, would actual have been useful once. Charm Person - 2 times False Life - only by warlocks that can cast it for free. Feather Fall - 4 times Illusory Script - 1 time Longstrider - Never Silent Image - only by warlocks that can cast it for free. Unseen Servant - only by wizards that don't need to prepare it to cast it, and only as a rituatl. Cure Wounds - 3 times Alter Self - Never Arcane Lock - Never Enthrall - Never Knock - Never Locate Object - 3 times Magic Aura - desired once, used never Magic Mouth - only by one player who wanted to use it to make a computer Lesser Resoration - 3 times Prayer of Healing - 1 time Barkskin - Never Beastsense - Never Enlarge/Reduce - 4 times only on objects
Sure in theory their effects don't diminish, but most of these are terrible spells in the first place.
I don't think it's so much that they're 'terrible' spells in the first place; just that they're competing with far BETTER spells for spell slots. For example, Feather Fall is VERY useful when the right situations arise; but the number of times in a campaign where you'd even be in a situation where it would have an effect at all can probably be counted on one hand. When those situations do come up unless the caster had the foresight to prep it beforehand they won't even have it prepared. If these spells didn't need to be prepared beforehand, even if they could only be cast at ritual speed or needed a higher level spell slot or something you'd see their usage shoot up immensely. If I can only have 5 different spells you can bet that something like Barkskin is getting the axe since it's an AC spell that requires concentration. If it's not competing for one of those five slots, though, then even at an increased cost/slower cast time I'll find situations where it's useful and actually cast it on occasion.
I appreciate that you guys like to think you are in the right and everyone who disagrees with you is some wrong edge case, but that just isn't the case. Have a nice day condescending to everyone else, i am out.
This shouldn't be the case. Your experience is correct. As is mine. DnD is for everyone and everyone experiences different things. Different tables will be different. What WoTC is going try to do is make the game the most accessible to the most people. The set way of preparing spells makes it easier for new people and doesn't alienate them by making it vastly different for veterans if vets have to follow the same rules, and the cost to a few tables who lose interest in these lower level spells is worth for both the experience of the new people and the experience of those who will find creative uses for lower level spells.
It was your suggestion that anyone who WAS finding use of these spells was not REALLY getting use out of them, that their experience is false. I simply asked that you try to see a different perspective and that different tables will find use for these spells and that you could as well.
I have been playing 5e in multiple campaigns for 3 years this is the number of times I have seen these spells cast, or had players wish they had these spells so they could cast it:
Alarm - 5-6 times, would actual have been useful once. Charm Person - 2 times False Life - only by warlocks that can cast it for free. Feather Fall - 4 times Illusory Script - 1 time Longstrider - Never Silent Image - only by warlocks that can cast it for free. Unseen Servant - only by wizards that don't need to prepare it to cast it, and only as a rituatl. Cure Wounds - 3 times Alter Self - Never Arcane Lock - Never Enthrall - Never Knock - Never Locate Object - 3 times Magic Aura - desired once, used never Magic Mouth - only by one player who wanted to use it to make a computer Lesser Resoration - 3 times Prayer of Healing - 1 time Barkskin - Never Beastsense - Never Enlarge/Reduce - 4 times only on objects
Sure in theory their effects don't diminish, but most of these are terrible spells in the first place.
Exactly as Snowtworf said. Their effects don't diminish, but when you are at those lower levels they are competing with more important combat spells and the like. You aren't going to see them for both their niche situational use and the fact that they take up a preparation. By forcing people to prepare at least 4 first level spells and 3 second level spells these will be MUCH more common. I LOVE longstrider in this situation, 8 hours 10 foot movement speed increase no concentration. When I have a bunch of higher level slots and can cast this on a rogue that has bonus action dashes the movement speed increase is crazy.
Barkskin is BAD right now, it will see more play with the UA providing temp HP. Also basically everyone being a prepared caster means it is going to be more likely that someone can prep these ahead of time rather than having to wait to level up before an adventure task. Committing a spell to memory is less of a cost this way.
Not seeing these spells RIGHT NOW, which don't have any diminishment on their effects and will still be good in the situations they are good in, is the problem that this rule solves. These spells will be more prominent with this rule than they ever were in 5e. Look to the future use of these spells, not the past.
Edit: Really ask yourself, in the world of ONE DnD where we can't prepare 10 3rd and 4th level spells, and you have to prepare more than shield and misty step in your second level slots. Which of these find purchase in your slots, and of them, which do you WISH you cast more, which ones sound cool. Because the thing about adventures is, the more you want to do something, the more you will find yourself doing it. If you want to set up a magic mouth network you can. If you want to make a magic item appear to be nothing but an old man's walking stick. go for it. These things aren't competing with better higher spells any more, they are simply competing at their level with spells of their level. Like they should, and the spells you need for those slots are going to be different at high level than they are at low. So the ones that are "NEVER SEEN" Won't be if this rule goes forward. And I believe that is a good thing.
I don't think it's going to actually change all that much. For example, it doesn't matter if I'm forced to prep 4 1st level spells or not, Alarm's not going to be one of those spells unless my spell list is TINY or I have reason to think, beforehand, that I will need it. It's not that shield/absorb elements/misty step/whatever are 'better', it's that I can look at a situation and go 'there is a good chance that I will need X spell'. In most combat there's at least one foe who can deal elemental damage, so a spell like 'absorb elements' will always be NEEDED. If there was a hypothetical 1st level spell that offered me immunity to 1 element but had a 1 minute casting time, there's a good chance it would lose out to AE due to its flexibility unless we were in an area in which damage from a certain element would be guarenteed, at which point this hypothetical spell would win out and AE would find itself on the back lines.
A while back, and possibly in a different topic (I don't remember), I suggested the idea of a 'utility' tag for certain spells. This tag would allow them to be cast without prepping them; but would take longer to cast. Basically ritual without the need for prepping it. I might also suggest an entirely separate spell list set aside entirely for 'utility' spells. Possibly even without spell levels, just a number of 'slots' with more powerful spells costing more. That way a spell like alarm has no competition from spells that are just generally more usable/flexible and can ALWAYS be readied for those few, niche, situations that arise when it's useful.
I don't think it's going to actually change all that much. For example, it doesn't matter if I'm forced to prep 4 1st level spells or not, Alarm's not going to be one of those spells unless my spell list is TINY or I have reason to think, beforehand, that I will need it. It's not that shield/absorb elements/misty step/whatever are 'better', it's that I can look at a situation and go 'there is a good chance that I will need X spell'. In most combat there's at least one foe who can deal elemental damage, so a spell like 'absorb elements' will always be NEEDED. If there was a hypothetical 1st level spell that offered me immunity to 1 element but had a 1 minute casting time, there's a good chance it would lose out to AE due to its flexibility unless we were in an area in which damage from a certain element would be guarenteed, at which point this hypothetical spell would win out and AE would find itself on the back lines.
A while back, and possibly in a different topic (I don't remember), I suggested the idea of a 'utility' tag for certain spells. This tag would allow them to be cast without prepping them; but would take longer to cast. Basically ritual without the need for prepping it. I might also suggest an entirely separate spell list set aside entirely for 'utility' spells. Possibly even without spell levels, just a number of 'slots' with more powerful spells costing more. That way a spell like alarm has no competition from spells that are just generally more usable/flexible and can ALWAYS be readied for those few, niche, situations that arise when it's useful.
Right this is also true, my point is, first absorb elements isnt part of one dnd and isnt on any spell list yet, but you are going to have those, shield, absorb elements, and you still have 2 preps left. Those 2 will change day to day and will be the utility slots.
Spells aren't just competing for preparation slots, they are also competing for spell slots. Longstrider is a complete waste of a spell slot b/c characters that are Skirmishers already get class features that more than suffice to enable them to be skirmishers and those that aren't skirmishers don't benefit from having increased movement speed. If you find it fun just to see big numbers in play then I'm happy for you, go enjoy your Longstrider all you want, but in terms of actually benefiting the party - i.e. preventing a bad thing happening to a character that otherwise would hit them, or allowing a character to achieve something they otherwise would not have been able to do - casting Longstrider will not make a difference.
Even if my druid could cast every spell on her list at any time, she would never cast Longstrider because having a slot available for Healing Word or Faerie Fire is just so much more valuable. Whereas Healing Word can save a party member's life, give a party member another turn to achieve whatever it is we need to achieve, or earn the trust of civilians by healing their wounded. Similarly, I would always save a 1st level slot for Faerie Fire over Longstrider, Faerie Fire enables us to find invisible objects / creatures, gives Advantage on attacks and makes for an awesome disco party.
Even in the niche case of prepping ahead of time for a situation where movement will be important, she would use Animal Friendship to get party members a cool mount with 50-60 ft move speed and ability to Dash with its action rather than use the same spell slot to give them a +10 move speed.
Bards get both Faerie Fire & Healing Word as well, so I would never spend a 1st level slot on Longstrider with them either. On a high level Wizard/Sorcerer I would always save my 1st level slots for Shield and Mage Armour, and never use them for anything else. If the DM let's you have infinite SRs at the start of the adventuring day, I guess I would cast it with a Warlock since it literally costs me nothing to do so but that's really not saying much.
Spells aren't just competing for preparation slots, they are also competing for spell slots. Longstrider is a complete waste of a spell slot b/c characters that are Skirmishers already get class features that more than suffice to enable them to be skirmishers and those that aren't skirmishers don't benefit from having increased movement speed. If you find it fun just to see big numbers in play then I'm happy for you, go enjoy your Longstrider all you want, but in terms of actually benefiting the party - i.e. preventing a bad thing happening to a character that otherwise would hit them, or allowing a character to achieve something they otherwise would not have been able to do - casting Longstrider will not make a difference.
Even if my druid could cast every spell on her list at any time, she would never cast Longstrider because having a slot available for Healing Word or Faerie Fire is just so much more valuable. Whereas Healing Word can save a party member's life, give a party member another turn to achieve whatever it is we need to achieve, or earn the trust of civilians by healing their wounded. Similarly, I would always save a 1st level slot for Faerie Fire over Longstrider, Faerie Fire enables us to find invisible objects / creatures, gives Advantage on attacks and makes for an awesome disco party.
Even in the niche case of prepping ahead of time for a situation where movement will be important, she would use Animal Friendship to get party members a cool mount with 50-60 ft move speed and ability to Dash with its action rather than use the same spell slot to give them a +10 move speed.
Bards get both Faerie Fire & Healing Word as well, so I would never spend a 1st level slot on Longstrider with them either. On a high level Wizard/Sorcerer I would always save my 1st level slots for Shield and Mage Armour, and never use them for anything else. If the DM let's you have infinite SRs at the start of the adventuring day, I guess I would cast it with a Warlock since it literally costs me nothing to do so but that's really not saying much.
So, let me get this straight, you think a +5 to AC for one round is better for your survival than 10 feet of extra movement speed for 1 hour. We are not playing the same game. We are playing 2 fundamentally different games.
You do realize Longstrider can be cast on other creatures right? Its concentration free and lasts for an hour, SOMEBODY will be able to make use of it. It's worth a preparation slot today, never mind when you're no longer able to ignore every low-level slot.
You do realize Longstrider can be cast on other creatures right? Its concentration free and lasts for an hour, SOMEBODY will be able to make use of it. It's worth a preparation slot today, never mind when you're no longer able to ignore every low-level slot.
Longstrider is one of those spells that it feels like ought to be useful, but I never got around to actually using. I think it's because most combats seem to occur either at ranges short enough that an extra 10' isn't needed, or long enough that an extra 10' isn't good enough. Also, because it's a standard action to take, you have to know ahead of time that you want to use it.
Longstrider is actually quite useful. I think the real issue is that it takes an ACTION as opposed to a bonus action and a lot of people just aren't used to spells that last more than a minute. I just wrapped up a campaign that was centered around arena-fighting and I prepped Longstrider on my druid towards the end when I was engaged in a lot of 1v1 matches. It was actually useful but at the same time I dealt with a situation where meld-to-stone was far more valuable (summoned a bunch of animals then melded into stone so they'd maul the other guy while I was perfectly safe) and a guy who, in anticipation of fighting me, got a bunch of +movement buffs that just dwarfed Longstrider. On the one hand I want to try it a bit more in other campaigns now; but on the other I can't deny that having to spend an action at the start of combat is a bit much. Maybe on a sorc where I can either extend or quicken it, but on other classes, it might just not be worth the loss in action economy.
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As I said, my experience is different. My players had 0 issue finding low level spells that had rare use, but were still used. They weren't as strong as higher level spells, but they were still useful.
Saying that 1st and 2nd level spells are not useful when you are level 11 might as well be saying that half casters dont have useful spells because they only have a few 3rd level spells and all the rest have been out leveled. It is complete non-sense.
Give it time and more practice there are first level spells that scale just fine.
I will give a list later tonight of every first level and second level spell that never loses relevance.
I guess i've found instances where our Cleric would have Heal, Word of Recall and Heroes Feast prepped because for example 4th lvl Cleric spells are pretty mediocre at best and typically our Cleric takes Death Ward and sometimes Divination if needed but would gladly give up learning a 3rd 4th level spell for another utility 6th level spell (which they do).
I agree a Bard who wants Teleport should be able to access Magnificent Mansion as well. Same with a Druid who wants Transport via Plant's and also Wind Walk, both great for travel in different situations, but having to take a long rest before using each one isn't always available, but with One D&D you'll probably see a lot more random long rests occurring because now casters will need to switch out utility spells more often depending on whats needed.
I have given it time. Maybe its you that needs to and in the long run you will see how those spells were never really needed to solve the problem, didn't particularity help much and were at best a tiny short cut, basically the leveled up version of prestidigitation to clean your clothes.
In general, this is an extremely poor argument. You technically never NEED anything to solve the problem, you don't need spells, you don't need skills you don't need class features, you don't need items. All of these things are just ONE WAY of solving the problem and that is why we are playing roleplaying games to begin with. You dont NEED to teleport to get to the other side of the continent, you have two feet you can walk. Teleporting is just a "tiny short cut". You can play the game without having a single person who can cast spells. You can play the game with only a half-caster whose best spell at level 13 is a single 4th level spell and their 2nd and first level spells are the bulk of their spells. The game is designed in a way that all of these are possible. And if it is POSSIBLE to play with a half-caster that is still casting 1st and 2nd level spells, than it is perfectly viable for a full-caster to cast these same spells with the same level of effect at those levels and have it still "solve" or HELP solve the issue. That doesn't make them USELESS, that makes them niche and INTERESTING.
The party without a charisma caster is going to be greatful for the prepared enhance ability for advantage on their diplomacy checks... that is a second level spell.
Here is the list of first and second level spells that remain USEFUL for the entire life of the campaign
Alarm, Armor of Agathys, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, False Life, Feather Fall, Find Familiar, Hex, Identify, Illusory Script, Longstrider, Mage Armor, Shield, Silent Image, Unseen Servant, Bless, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Inflict wounds, Hunter's Mark (1st)
Alter self, Arcane Lock, Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Enthrall, Invisibility, Knock, Locate Object, Magic Aura, Magic Mouth, Misty Step, See Invisibility, Augury, Aid, Lesser Restoration, Prayer of healing, Zone of Truth, Bark skin, Beastsense, Enhance ability, Enlarge/ Reduce, Pass without Trace (2nd)
Remember, that your first and second level spells can still be freely upcast as well. Any spell that deals damage could just be upcast to a higher level spell slot and do ok Damage if you want your higher level slots to be saved for utility. These spells all help in some way with healing, utility, information gathering. Could you solve some of these issues through mundane means with someone that has Expertise in a skill, sure.... if you have someone with expertise in the right skill. If no one has thieves tools or expertise in sleight of hand Knock is going to be just as good at level 18 as it is at level 3. Magic Aura is something you are NEVER going to cast at low levels, but higher levels making a magic item permanently look non-magic is really good and it is not like you need those slots for anything else, heck the suggestion here is that those slots are just for misty step.
@MyDudeicus - if all low level spells stop being useful in your games then I'm sorry to hear that, but WotC's job isn't to design for such edge cases, they have to assume at least some degree of agency on the part of the players. They made spells with the intent that they would be useful at the level you get them, and in a lot of cases stay useful well beyond that. And from 3rd-level onward, spells outdamage even max level cantrips with ease, so your options only keep growing.
I appreciate that you guys like to think you are in the right and everyone who disagrees with you is some wrong edge case, but that just isn't the case. Have a nice day condescending to everyone else, i am out.
I have been playing 5e in multiple campaigns for 3 years this is the number of times I have seen these spells cast, or had players wish they had these spells so they could cast it:
Alarm - 5-6 times, would actual have been useful once.
Charm Person - 2 times
False Life - only by warlocks that can cast it for free.
Feather Fall - 4 times
Illusory Script - 1 time
Longstrider - Never
Silent Image - only by warlocks that can cast it for free.
Unseen Servant - only by wizards that don't need to prepare it to cast it, and only as a rituatl.
Cure Wounds - 3 times
Alter Self - Never
Arcane Lock - Never
Enthrall - Never
Knock - Never
Locate Object - 3 times
Magic Aura - desired once, used never
Magic Mouth - only by one player who wanted to use it to make a computer
Lesser Resoration - 3 times
Prayer of Healing - 1 time
Barkskin - Never
Beastsense - Never
Enlarge/Reduce - 4 times only on objects
Sure in theory their effects don't diminish, but most of these are terrible spells in the first place.
I don't think it's so much that they're 'terrible' spells in the first place; just that they're competing with far BETTER spells for spell slots. For example, Feather Fall is VERY useful when the right situations arise; but the number of times in a campaign where you'd even be in a situation where it would have an effect at all can probably be counted on one hand. When those situations do come up unless the caster had the foresight to prep it beforehand they won't even have it prepared. If these spells didn't need to be prepared beforehand, even if they could only be cast at ritual speed or needed a higher level spell slot or something you'd see their usage shoot up immensely. If I can only have 5 different spells you can bet that something like Barkskin is getting the axe since it's an AC spell that requires concentration. If it's not competing for one of those five slots, though, then even at an increased cost/slower cast time I'll find situations where it's useful and actually cast it on occasion.
This shouldn't be the case. Your experience is correct. As is mine. DnD is for everyone and everyone experiences different things. Different tables will be different. What WoTC is going try to do is make the game the most accessible to the most people. The set way of preparing spells makes it easier for new people and doesn't alienate them by making it vastly different for veterans if vets have to follow the same rules, and the cost to a few tables who lose interest in these lower level spells is worth for both the experience of the new people and the experience of those who will find creative uses for lower level spells.
It was your suggestion that anyone who WAS finding use of these spells was not REALLY getting use out of them, that their experience is false. I simply asked that you try to see a different perspective and that different tables will find use for these spells and that you could as well.
Exactly as Snowtworf said. Their effects don't diminish, but when you are at those lower levels they are competing with more important combat spells and the like. You aren't going to see them for both their niche situational use and the fact that they take up a preparation. By forcing people to prepare at least 4 first level spells and 3 second level spells these will be MUCH more common. I LOVE longstrider in this situation, 8 hours 10 foot movement speed increase no concentration. When I have a bunch of higher level slots and can cast this on a rogue that has bonus action dashes the movement speed increase is crazy.
Barkskin is BAD right now, it will see more play with the UA providing temp HP. Also basically everyone being a prepared caster means it is going to be more likely that someone can prep these ahead of time rather than having to wait to level up before an adventure task. Committing a spell to memory is less of a cost this way.
Not seeing these spells RIGHT NOW, which don't have any diminishment on their effects and will still be good in the situations they are good in, is the problem that this rule solves. These spells will be more prominent with this rule than they ever were in 5e. Look to the future use of these spells, not the past.
Edit: Really ask yourself, in the world of ONE DnD where we can't prepare 10 3rd and 4th level spells, and you have to prepare more than shield and misty step in your second level slots. Which of these find purchase in your slots, and of them, which do you WISH you cast more, which ones sound cool. Because the thing about adventures is, the more you want to do something, the more you will find yourself doing it. If you want to set up a magic mouth network you can. If you want to make a magic item appear to be nothing but an old man's walking stick. go for it. These things aren't competing with better higher spells any more, they are simply competing at their level with spells of their level. Like they should, and the spells you need for those slots are going to be different at high level than they are at low. So the ones that are "NEVER SEEN" Won't be if this rule goes forward. And I believe that is a good thing.
I don't think it's going to actually change all that much. For example, it doesn't matter if I'm forced to prep 4 1st level spells or not, Alarm's not going to be one of those spells unless my spell list is TINY or I have reason to think, beforehand, that I will need it. It's not that shield/absorb elements/misty step/whatever are 'better', it's that I can look at a situation and go 'there is a good chance that I will need X spell'. In most combat there's at least one foe who can deal elemental damage, so a spell like 'absorb elements' will always be NEEDED. If there was a hypothetical 1st level spell that offered me immunity to 1 element but had a 1 minute casting time, there's a good chance it would lose out to AE due to its flexibility unless we were in an area in which damage from a certain element would be guarenteed, at which point this hypothetical spell would win out and AE would find itself on the back lines.
A while back, and possibly in a different topic (I don't remember), I suggested the idea of a 'utility' tag for certain spells. This tag would allow them to be cast without prepping them; but would take longer to cast. Basically ritual without the need for prepping it. I might also suggest an entirely separate spell list set aside entirely for 'utility' spells. Possibly even without spell levels, just a number of 'slots' with more powerful spells costing more. That way a spell like alarm has no competition from spells that are just generally more usable/flexible and can ALWAYS be readied for those few, niche, situations that arise when it's useful.
Right this is also true, my point is, first absorb elements isnt part of one dnd and isnt on any spell list yet, but you are going to have those, shield, absorb elements, and you still have 2 preps left. Those 2 will change day to day and will be the utility slots.
Spells aren't just competing for preparation slots, they are also competing for spell slots. Longstrider is a complete waste of a spell slot b/c characters that are Skirmishers already get class features that more than suffice to enable them to be skirmishers and those that aren't skirmishers don't benefit from having increased movement speed. If you find it fun just to see big numbers in play then I'm happy for you, go enjoy your Longstrider all you want, but in terms of actually benefiting the party - i.e. preventing a bad thing happening to a character that otherwise would hit them, or allowing a character to achieve something they otherwise would not have been able to do - casting Longstrider will not make a difference.
Even if my druid could cast every spell on her list at any time, she would never cast Longstrider because having a slot available for Healing Word or Faerie Fire is just so much more valuable. Whereas Healing Word can save a party member's life, give a party member another turn to achieve whatever it is we need to achieve, or earn the trust of civilians by healing their wounded. Similarly, I would always save a 1st level slot for Faerie Fire over Longstrider, Faerie Fire enables us to find invisible objects / creatures, gives Advantage on attacks and makes for an awesome disco party.
Even in the niche case of prepping ahead of time for a situation where movement will be important, she would use Animal Friendship to get party members a cool mount with 50-60 ft move speed and ability to Dash with its action rather than use the same spell slot to give them a +10 move speed.
Bards get both Faerie Fire & Healing Word as well, so I would never spend a 1st level slot on Longstrider with them either. On a high level Wizard/Sorcerer I would always save my 1st level slots for Shield and Mage Armour, and never use them for anything else. If the DM let's you have infinite SRs at the start of the adventuring day, I guess I would cast it with a Warlock since it literally costs me nothing to do so but that's really not saying much.
So, let me get this straight, you think a +5 to AC for one round is better for your survival than 10 feet of extra movement speed for 1 hour. We are not playing the same game. We are playing 2 fundamentally different games.
You do realize Longstrider can be cast on other creatures right? Its concentration free and lasts for an hour, SOMEBODY will be able to make use of it. It's worth a preparation slot today, never mind when you're no longer able to ignore every low-level slot.
Longstrider is one of those spells that it feels like ought to be useful, but I never got around to actually using. I think it's because most combats seem to occur either at ranges short enough that an extra 10' isn't needed, or long enough that an extra 10' isn't good enough. Also, because it's a standard action to take, you have to know ahead of time that you want to use it.
Edit: Deleted cus I am dumb.
It lasts 1 hour. If it lasted 8 hours it would be more likely to use.
yep, realized I was dumb on that one. Still long and no concentration, but ya.
Longstrider is actually quite useful. I think the real issue is that it takes an ACTION as opposed to a bonus action and a lot of people just aren't used to spells that last more than a minute. I just wrapped up a campaign that was centered around arena-fighting and I prepped Longstrider on my druid towards the end when I was engaged in a lot of 1v1 matches. It was actually useful but at the same time I dealt with a situation where meld-to-stone was far more valuable (summoned a bunch of animals then melded into stone so they'd maul the other guy while I was perfectly safe) and a guy who, in anticipation of fighting me, got a bunch of +movement buffs that just dwarfed Longstrider. On the one hand I want to try it a bit more in other campaigns now; but on the other I can't deny that having to spend an action at the start of combat is a bit much. Maybe on a sorc where I can either extend or quicken it, but on other classes, it might just not be worth the loss in action economy.