Forcing players to prepare a half dozen spells they will never use because their cantrips are more powerful than those spells is unfun. I'd rather have fewer spellslots and weaker spells than be stuck with spells I don't want to cast.
Yes, damaging cantrips will be better than 1st and 2nd level damaging spells but... like... don't prepare those? Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Silvery Barbs, oh look you're at 4 already. Rope Trick, Misty Step, Vortex Warp, that's three.
Silvery Barbs and Vortex Warp are definitely not being included in One D&D, Absorb Elements is also not currently included. Plus you are assuming an Arcane caster here whereas there is also Cleric & Druid also affected by the changes. Rope Trick is unnecessary once you have Tiny Hut so after all of that we have: Shield, Mage Armor + Misty Step.
And even with those, if I choose to play an Eladrin or Shadar Kai what do I need Misty Step for when I have Fey Step? Or if I take Fey Touched feat why do I need Misty Step? If I take the first lvl Feat for Light and Medium armor proficiency why do I need Mage Armor? So many situations to not need lower level spells yet people seem determined to force you to keep them prepared vs letting you decide for your character what is best.
Again at the end of the day i'm thankful for my DM ignoring this rule but its really not necessary. Downgrade spells and increase martial abilities should be perfectly fine i'd think.
I'm not saying I'm a fan of this change, but I kind of agree with PsyrenXY.
In the Druid UA on the Primal Spell List, at 1st level you have Cure Wounds, Detect Magic, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Fog Cloud, Goodberry, Healing Word, Jump, Longstrider, Speak with Animals. 2nd level you have Augury, Darkvision (for yourself or party member who doesn't), Enhance ability, Enlarge/Reduce, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Pass without Trace (pretty much a must have on any druid, imo), Silence, Spike Growth.
In the Cleric UA on the Divine Spell List, Bless (never becomes useless), Command, Cure Wounds, Detect Magic, Healing Word, Heroism, Shield of Faith. 2nd level, Aid (though less useful now in the UA than in 5E, unfortunately), Augury, Blindness/Deafness, Calm Emotions, Hold Person, Lesser Restoration, Prayer of Healing, Silence, Spiritual Weapon, Zone of Truth.
All of these are pretty good non/low-damage or utility spells, that would be good on Cleric and Druid prepared lists. I wouldn't feel bad having those as options because my cantrips could do better damage as I level up.
I'm not sure if I like the restriction of prepared/spell slot, looking at my level 15 Druid I'm playing right now I have 3 4th level spells, 3 5th level spells, 2 6th level spells, 2 7th, and 1 8th prepared, so I would lose that option if this rule was instituted by my DM, but I would still be fine with those spell options, if that's what I had to do.
1) OneD&D is explicitly backwards compatible with that stuff.
LOL no it will not be. It will be backwards compatible with adventure modules sort-of but not with previous player character options, because making it compatible with previous player options would be them shooting themselves in the foot in terms of future books sales since player character option sell much better than any other books.
2) Even if your table bans non-core spells for whatever reason, you still have plenty of options besides damaging spells for those slots. Charm Person, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages, Silent Image, Augury, Detect Thoughts, Blindess/Deafness, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, and Phantasmal Force are all core and therefore will be in OneD&D
I have seen Charm Person cast in a game exactly once in 3 years of playing D&D, the fact that people know you cast it afterwards makes it usually a bad spell to use. Feather Fall gets cast maybe one or twice a campaign, Comprehend Languages is a ritual spell (hopefully Wizards don't need to prepare that) and again sees use maybe once or twice a campaign, Augury's fine but lots of classes get it and you don't need everyone having it, Enlarge/Reduce is not worth your concentration a high levels, Phantasmal Force is likewise not worth your concentration at high levels - you'll be concentrating on a 4th, 5th or 6th level spell.
1) OneD&D is explicitly backwards compatible with that stuff.
LOL no it will not be. It will be backwards compatible with adventure modules sort-of but not with previous player character options, because making it compatible with previous player options would be them shooting themselves in the foot in terms of future books sales since player character option sell much better than any other books.
2) Even if your table bans non-core spells for whatever reason, you still have plenty of options besides damaging spells for those slots. Charm Person, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages, Silent Image, Augury, Detect Thoughts, Blindess/Deafness, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, and Phantasmal Force are all core and therefore will be in OneD&D
I have seen Charm Person cast in a game exactly once in 3 years of playing D&D, the fact that people know you cast it afterwards makes it usually a bad spell to use. Feather Fall gets cast maybe one or twice a campaign, Comprehend Languages is a ritual spell (hopefully Wizards don't need to prepare that) and again sees use maybe once or twice a campaign, Augury's fine but lots of classes get it and you don't need everyone having it, Enlarge/Reduce is not worth your concentration a high levels, Phantasmal Force is likewise not worth your concentration at high levels - you'll be concentrating on a 4th, 5th or 6th level spell.
I've seen the spells I've listed used plenty, even at high levels. If you don't, that's fine; provide your feedback on spell preparation, and if they move forward with it anyway, get your DM to houserule it. I won't care either way, I've sad my piece.
1) OneD&D is explicitly backwards compatible with that stuff.
LOL no it will not be. It will be backwards compatible with adventure modules sort-of but not with previous player character options, because making it compatible with previous player options would be them shooting themselves in the foot in terms of future books sales since player character option sell much better than any other books.
2) Even if your table bans non-core spells for whatever reason, you still have plenty of options besides damaging spells for those slots. Charm Person, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages, Silent Image, Augury, Detect Thoughts, Blindess/Deafness, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, and Phantasmal Force are all core and therefore will be in OneD&D
I have seen Charm Person cast in a game exactly once in 3 years of playing D&D, the fact that people know you cast it afterwards makes it usually a bad spell to use. Feather Fall gets cast maybe one or twice a campaign, Comprehend Languages is a ritual spell (hopefully Wizards don't need to prepare that) and again sees use maybe once or twice a campaign, Augury's fine but lots of classes get it and you don't need everyone having it, Enlarge/Reduce is not worth your concentration a high levels, Phantasmal Force is likewise not worth your concentration at high levels - you'll be concentrating on a 4th, 5th or 6th level spell.
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem. The focus on only the tippy top of spells is causing players to miss out on perfectly good spells and people could have more fun seeing a wider variety of stuff.
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem.
Charm Person is not a perfectly fine spell, though it's unclear whether the problem is with the intended effect of the spell or with the way it's written.
Just applying the charmed isn't great, so if that's all it does... not worthwhile. As written, it does have the additional effect of "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance", but nowhere in the spell does it define what that means.
It could be intended that this is the same meaning as "friendly" in the DMG, in which case it's actually a fairly decent spell that's poorly explained (though still not as bad as suggestion, which ranges from super powerful to useless depending on how the DM interprets "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.").
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem.
Charm Person is not a perfectly fine spell, though it's unclear whether the problem is with the intended effect of the spell or or with the way it's written.
Just applying the charmed isn't great, so if that's all it does... not worthwhile. As written, it does have the additional effect of "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance", but nowhere in the spell does it define what that means.
It could be intended that this is the same meaning as "friendly" in the DMG, in which case it's actually a fairly decent spell that's poorly explained (though still not as bad as suggestion, which ranges from super powerful to useless depending on how the DM interprets "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.").
If your DM rules that a stranger or foe treating you as a friendly acquaintance can't possibly be useful then... that's hardly a problem with the game.
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem.
Charm Person is not a perfectly fine spell, though it's unclear whether the problem is with the intended effect of the spell or or with the way it's written.
Just applying the charmed isn't great, so if that's all it does... not worthwhile. As written, it does have the additional effect of "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance", but nowhere in the spell does it define what that means.
It could be intended that this is the same meaning as "friendly" in the DMG, in which case it's actually a fairly decent spell that's poorly explained (though still not as bad as suggestion, which ranges from super powerful to useless depending on how the DM interprets "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.").
If your DM rules that a stranger or foe treating you as a friendly acquaintance can't possibly be useful then... that's hardly a problem with the game.
I feel like the real issue is the penalties associated with spells like that once the spell expires. In combat they're largely useless since, you know, fighting. But out of combat the 'the creature knows it was charmed by you' is a penalty that's exceedingly harsh and means it's basically a single-use spell. Even then the GM can easily just no-sell it even when the spell works. Like, say, you're trying to get past some guards and use it. The guard could just go 'sorry, but no one is allowed past, even if you're a friend' or something. Charm Person and similar stuff feels more like a way to ensure everyone hates the party than anything. Not to mention that odds are anyone actually trying to cast it is a CHA-focused character with persuasion or something as a skill meaning they're likely looking at a +6 bonus even at level 1 with no 'everyone will be out for your guts after' type thing either. Charm Person's just... not a good spell.
Edit: Druids and Wizards can cast it and are not CHA-focused, but bards, sorcs, and locks make up a big chunk of it's casters and are CHA-focused so... yea.
Like, say, you're trying to get past some guards and use it. The guard could just go 'sorry, but no one is allowed past, even if you're a friend' or something.
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem.
Charm Person is not a perfectly fine spell, though it's unclear whether the problem is with the intended effect of the spell or or with the way it's written.
Just applying the charmed isn't great, so if that's all it does... not worthwhile. As written, it does have the additional effect of "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance", but nowhere in the spell does it define what that means.
It could be intended that this is the same meaning as "friendly" in the DMG, in which case it's actually a fairly decent spell that's poorly explained (though still not as bad as suggestion, which ranges from super powerful to useless depending on how the DM interprets "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.").
If your DM rules that a stranger or foe treating you as a friendly acquaintance can't possibly be useful then... that's hardly a problem with the game.
I feel like the real issue is the penalties associated with spells like that once the spell expires. In combat they're largely useless since, you know, fighting. But out of combat the 'the creature knows it was charmed by you' is a penalty that's exceedingly harsh and means it's basically a single-use spell. Even then the GM can easily just no-sell it even when the spell works. Like, say, you're trying to get past some guards and use it. The guard could just go 'sorry, but no one is allowed past, even if you're a friend' or something. Charm Person and similar stuff feels more like a way to ensure everyone hates the party than anything. Not to mention that odds are anyone actually trying to cast it is a CHA-focused character with persuasion or something as a skill meaning they're likely looking at a +6 bonus even at level 1 with no 'everyone will be out for your guts after' type thing either. Charm Person's just... not a good spell.
Edit: Druids and Wizards can cast it and are not CHA-focused, but bards, sorcs, and locks make up a big chunk of it's casters and are CHA-focused so... yea.
I still don't know what to say to this other than your DM appears to take more joy in stonewalling you than validating your creativity. In which case, yeah you're probably right that low level spells aren't useful for you, but that's not WotC's problem to solve.
Like if I was friends with a guard, yeah he probably wouldn't risk getting fired or jailed to let me inside - but he might tell me where I can go to get permission, or what proof he'd accept to allow passage, or which neighboring window has a good vantage point to see inside, or maybe even what time the changing of the guard is so that he personally wouldn't get in trouble. You know, something that keeps the plot moving. That's like, the goal, right?
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem.
Charm Person is not a perfectly fine spell, though it's unclear whether the problem is with the intended effect of the spell or or with the way it's written.
Just applying the charmed isn't great, so if that's all it does... not worthwhile. As written, it does have the additional effect of "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance", but nowhere in the spell does it define what that means.
It could be intended that this is the same meaning as "friendly" in the DMG, in which case it's actually a fairly decent spell that's poorly explained (though still not as bad as suggestion, which ranges from super powerful to useless depending on how the DM interprets "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.").
If your DM rules that a stranger or foe treating you as a friendly acquaintance can't possibly be useful then... that's hardly a problem with the game.
I feel like the real issue is the penalties associated with spells like that once the spell expires. In combat they're largely useless since, you know, fighting. But out of combat the 'the creature knows it was charmed by you' is a penalty that's exceedingly harsh and means it's basically a single-use spell. Even then the GM can easily just no-sell it even when the spell works. Like, say, you're trying to get past some guards and use it. The guard could just go 'sorry, but no one is allowed past, even if you're a friend' or something. Charm Person and similar stuff feels more like a way to ensure everyone hates the party than anything. Not to mention that odds are anyone actually trying to cast it is a CHA-focused character with persuasion or something as a skill meaning they're likely looking at a +6 bonus even at level 1 with no 'everyone will be out for your guts after' type thing either. Charm Person's just... not a good spell.
Edit: Druids and Wizards can cast it and are not CHA-focused, but bards, sorcs, and locks make up a big chunk of it's casters and are CHA-focused so... yea.
I still don't know what to say to this other than your DM appears to take more joy in stonewalling you than validating your creativity. In which case, yeah you're probably right that low level spells aren't useful for you, but that's not WotC's problem to solve.
Like if I was friends with a guard, yeah he probably wouldn't risk getting fired or jailed to let me inside - but he might tell me where I can go to get permission, or what proof he'd accept to allow passage, or which neighboring window has a good vantage point to see inside, or maybe even what time the changing of the guard is so that he personally wouldn't get in trouble. You know, something that keeps the plot moving. That's like, the goal, right?
And I want to add in to this that it doesn't say that the person becomes hostile to you. Just that they know they were charmed by you. Might piss them off a bit, but usually the person you are charming wasn't someone that was friendly to you to begin with. You might meet them one or two times and that is it and an hour of their friendship is all you really need. Some NPC's will find your ruse clever and be amused that you charmed them, others will be mad and be hostile the next time you see them... if you see them. It says they know they were charmed, it does not say what they do with that knowledge. It isn't a ruse you can keep up forever, but it is still a perfectly fine and serviceable spell. One of many lower level spells that people rarely use that are perfectly fine and even upcast decently. Charm person with a 4th or 5th level spell can get a whole 4 or 5 people. Suggestion doesn't upcast.
Charm Person is more about the charmed condition. The guard should only be telling sorry no one is allowed to pass after you failed your persuasion check with advantage. Then when you run passed them they won’t attack you. Maybe yell at you about how you’re going to get them fired, but they won’t attack you.
Charm Person is more about the charmed condition. The guard should only be telling sorry no one is allowed to pass after you failed your persuasion check with advantage.
That's not what the charmed condition does. It doesn't let you make any persuasion roll you wouldn't be able to attempt anyway. The value of charm person, if anything, lies in the "friendly acquaintance" verbiage.
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem.
Charm Person is not a perfectly fine spell, though it's unclear whether the problem is with the intended effect of the spell or or with the way it's written.
Just applying the charmed isn't great, so if that's all it does... not worthwhile. As written, it does have the additional effect of "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance", but nowhere in the spell does it define what that means.
It could be intended that this is the same meaning as "friendly" in the DMG, in which case it's actually a fairly decent spell that's poorly explained (though still not as bad as suggestion, which ranges from super powerful to useless depending on how the DM interprets "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.").
If your DM rules that a stranger or foe treating you as a friendly acquaintance can't possibly be useful then... that's hardly a problem with the game.
I feel like the real issue is the penalties associated with spells like that once the spell expires. In combat they're largely useless since, you know, fighting. But out of combat the 'the creature knows it was charmed by you' is a penalty that's exceedingly harsh and means it's basically a single-use spell. Even then the GM can easily just no-sell it even when the spell works. Like, say, you're trying to get past some guards and use it. The guard could just go 'sorry, but no one is allowed past, even if you're a friend' or something. Charm Person and similar stuff feels more like a way to ensure everyone hates the party than anything. Not to mention that odds are anyone actually trying to cast it is a CHA-focused character with persuasion or something as a skill meaning they're likely looking at a +6 bonus even at level 1 with no 'everyone will be out for your guts after' type thing either. Charm Person's just... not a good spell.
Edit: Druids and Wizards can cast it and are not CHA-focused, but bards, sorcs, and locks make up a big chunk of it's casters and are CHA-focused so... yea.
I still don't know what to say to this other than your DM appears to take more joy in stonewalling you than validating your creativity. In which case, yeah you're probably right that low level spells aren't useful for you, but that's not WotC's problem to solve.
Like if I was friends with a guard, yeah he probably wouldn't risk getting fired or jailed to let me inside - but he might tell me where I can go to get permission, or what proof he'd accept to allow passage, or which neighboring window has a good vantage point to see inside, or maybe even what time the changing of the guard is so that he personally wouldn't get in trouble. You know, something that keeps the plot moving. That's like, the goal, right?
That's still very risky for a spell that's going to likely end up with you on a bunch of wanted lists regardless of what you actually charm out of them. Even in entirely benign situations people don't take kindly to being magically influenced against their will after all. Regardless, I don't feel like Charm Person is strong enough and has ample enough downsides and drawbacks to not be even remotely close to 'overpowered'.
That's still very risky for a spell that's going to likely end up with you on a bunch of wanted lists regardless of what you actually charm out of them. Even in entirely benign situations people don't take kindly to being magically influenced against their will after all. Regardless, I don't feel like Charm Person is strong enough and has ample enough downsides and drawbacks to not be even remotely close to 'overpowered'.
I never said it was "overpowered", I said it was useful. Are you confusing me with another poster?
Charm Person is more about the charmed condition. The guard should only be telling sorry no one is allowed to pass after you failed your persuasion check with advantage.
That's not what the charmed condition does. It doesn't let you make any persuasion roll you wouldn't be able to attempt anyway. The value of charm person, if anything, lies in the "friendly acquaintance" verbiage.
If you are trying to get passed a guard and cast charm person on them I’m assuming you are going to ask them to let you passed them. So you’re correct it doesn’t allow you to do a roll you wouldn’t normally be allowed to make, but your assumption that you aren’t allowed to make the roll is a problem. Also note you have no argument against the second part of my statement which you conveniently left off. They can’t attack you if just walk passed them. That’s way more valuable than “friendly acquaintance.” Please don’t quote me if you are going to shorten the quote. Either just reply or leave my statement whole. That”s some weird politician stuff.
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem.
Charm Person is not a perfectly fine spell, though it's unclear whether the problem is with the intended effect of the spell or or with the way it's written.
Just applying the charmed isn't great, so if that's all it does... not worthwhile. As written, it does have the additional effect of "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance", but nowhere in the spell does it define what that means.
It could be intended that this is the same meaning as "friendly" in the DMG, in which case it's actually a fairly decent spell that's poorly explained (though still not as bad as suggestion, which ranges from super powerful to useless depending on how the DM interprets "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.").
If your DM rules that a stranger or foe treating you as a friendly acquaintance can't possibly be useful then... that's hardly a problem with the game.
I feel like the real issue is the penalties associated with spells like that once the spell expires. In combat they're largely useless since, you know, fighting. But out of combat the 'the creature knows it was charmed by you' is a penalty that's exceedingly harsh and means it's basically a single-use spell. Even then the GM can easily just no-sell it even when the spell works. Like, say, you're trying to get past some guards and use it. The guard could just go 'sorry, but no one is allowed past, even if you're a friend' or something. Charm Person and similar stuff feels more like a way to ensure everyone hates the party than anything. Not to mention that odds are anyone actually trying to cast it is a CHA-focused character with persuasion or something as a skill meaning they're likely looking at a +6 bonus even at level 1 with no 'everyone will be out for your guts after' type thing either. Charm Person's just... not a good spell.
Edit: Druids and Wizards can cast it and are not CHA-focused, but bards, sorcs, and locks make up a big chunk of it's casters and are CHA-focused so... yea.
I still don't know what to say to this other than your DM appears to take more joy in stonewalling you than validating your creativity. In which case, yeah you're probably right that low level spells aren't useful for you, but that's not WotC's problem to solve.
Like if I was friends with a guard, yeah he probably wouldn't risk getting fired or jailed to let me inside - but he might tell me where I can go to get permission, or what proof he'd accept to allow passage, or which neighboring window has a good vantage point to see inside, or maybe even what time the changing of the guard is so that he personally wouldn't get in trouble. You know, something that keeps the plot moving. That's like, the goal, right?
That's still very risky for a spell that's going to likely end up with you on a bunch of wanted lists regardless of what you actually charm out of them. Even in entirely benign situations people don't take kindly to being magically influenced against their will after all. Regardless, I don't feel like Charm Person is strong enough and has ample enough downsides and drawbacks to not be even remotely close to 'overpowered'.
Disguise Self (or an actual disguise) and charm person combo. Works every time. Well if they fail the save.
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem.
Charm Person is not a perfectly fine spell, though it's unclear whether the problem is with the intended effect of the spell or or with the way it's written.
Just applying the charmed isn't great, so if that's all it does... not worthwhile. As written, it does have the additional effect of "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance", but nowhere in the spell does it define what that means.
It could be intended that this is the same meaning as "friendly" in the DMG, in which case it's actually a fairly decent spell that's poorly explained (though still not as bad as suggestion, which ranges from super powerful to useless depending on how the DM interprets "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.").
If your DM rules that a stranger or foe treating you as a friendly acquaintance can't possibly be useful then... that's hardly a problem with the game.
I feel like the real issue is the penalties associated with spells like that once the spell expires. In combat they're largely useless since, you know, fighting. But out of combat the 'the creature knows it was charmed by you' is a penalty that's exceedingly harsh and means it's basically a single-use spell. Even then the GM can easily just no-sell it even when the spell works. Like, say, you're trying to get past some guards and use it. The guard could just go 'sorry, but no one is allowed past, even if you're a friend' or something. Charm Person and similar stuff feels more like a way to ensure everyone hates the party than anything. Not to mention that odds are anyone actually trying to cast it is a CHA-focused character with persuasion or something as a skill meaning they're likely looking at a +6 bonus even at level 1 with no 'everyone will be out for your guts after' type thing either. Charm Person's just... not a good spell.
Edit: Druids and Wizards can cast it and are not CHA-focused, but bards, sorcs, and locks make up a big chunk of it's casters and are CHA-focused so... yea.
I still don't know what to say to this other than your DM appears to take more joy in stonewalling you than validating your creativity. In which case, yeah you're probably right that low level spells aren't useful for you, but that's not WotC's problem to solve.
Like if I was friends with a guard, yeah he probably wouldn't risk getting fired or jailed to let me inside - but he might tell me where I can go to get permission, or what proof he'd accept to allow passage, or which neighboring window has a good vantage point to see inside, or maybe even what time the changing of the guard is so that he personally wouldn't get in trouble. You know, something that keeps the plot moving. That's like, the goal, right?
That's still very risky for a spell that's going to likely end up with you on a bunch of wanted lists regardless of what you actually charm out of them. Even in entirely benign situations people don't take kindly to being magically influenced against their will after all. Regardless, I don't feel like Charm Person is strong enough and has ample enough downsides and drawbacks to not be even remotely close to 'overpowered'.
You aren't going to end up on the wanted list with Charm Person any more than you would end up on that same list for doing what you wanted to do with that Charm Person in another way. If you are trying to sneak into a rich gala and charm the guards or you sneak in another way without disguises, people will know you were there and boom wanted list unless, of course, the reason you did so was something like you needed to tell the person in charge something important that the city captain didn't want him knowing about or something. That guy is the one who is or isn't going to put you on his wanted list, not the guards. Piss the guard off that is fine, but if you entertain the host the guard can be mad that is his problem. I also at no point called it 'overpowered' I said perfectly fine and serviceable and you don't NEED a bunch of OP spells to be fine as a caster.
You said it WASN'T perfectly fine and serviceable. Now, considering you said it isn't fine and it is not close to 'overpowered' does this mean that your definition of "fine a serviceable spell" is "overpowered spell and all others aren't worth the paper they are printed on"? because if so, then we have definitely spotted the problem.
Charm Person is more about the charmed condition. The guard should only be telling sorry no one is allowed to pass after you failed your persuasion check with advantage.
That's not what the charmed condition does. It doesn't let you make any persuasion roll you wouldn't be able to attempt anyway. The value of charm person, if anything, lies in the "friendly acquaintance" verbiage.
If you are trying to get passed a guard and cast charm person on them I’m assuming you are going to ask them to let you passed them. So you’re correct it doesn’t allow you to do a roll you wouldn’t normally be allowed to make, but your assumption that you aren’t allowed to make the roll is a problem. Also note you have no argument against the second part of my statement which you conveniently left off. They can’t attack you if just walk passed them. That’s way more valuable than “friendly acquaintance.” Please don’t quote me if you are going to shorten the quote. Either just reply or leave my statement whole. That”s some weird politician stuff.
I mean, most of the time a guard probably wouldn't attack someone immediately for walking past them anyway. They would physically block the way, or call the rest of the guard to capture you and throw you in jail. But that's at low levels. Sure Charm Person is useful from level 1-7, that's when most 1st level spells are useful. But we're talking about level 10+ when the PCs are legendary heroes that can slay an adult dragon with ease, getting past a guard is not a challenge to them any more, because they probably have their own keep and several guards at their personal command at this point.
Charm Person is more about the charmed condition. The guard should only be telling sorry no one is allowed to pass after you failed your persuasion check with advantage.
That's not what the charmed condition does. It doesn't let you make any persuasion roll you wouldn't be able to attempt anyway. The value of charm person, if anything, lies in the "friendly acquaintance" verbiage.
If you are trying to get passed a guard and cast charm person on them I’m assuming you are going to ask them to let you passed them.
And the guard says no, the same as they would if not charmed. There are plenty of times when persuasion either can't be attempted, or has a ridiculous DC, and getting advantage on your roll won't make any difference. You need something to turn the normally impossible rolls possible.
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And even with those, if I choose to play an Eladrin or Shadar Kai what do I need Misty Step for when I have Fey Step? Or if I take Fey Touched feat why do I need Misty Step? If I take the first lvl Feat for Light and Medium armor proficiency why do I need Mage Armor? So many situations to not need lower level spells yet people seem determined to force you to keep them prepared vs letting you decide for your character what is best.
Again at the end of the day i'm thankful for my DM ignoring this rule but its really not necessary. Downgrade spells and increase martial abilities should be perfectly fine i'd think.
I'm not saying I'm a fan of this change, but I kind of agree with PsyrenXY.
In the Druid UA on the Primal Spell List, at 1st level you have Cure Wounds, Detect Magic, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Fog Cloud, Goodberry, Healing Word, Jump, Longstrider, Speak with Animals. 2nd level you have Augury, Darkvision (for yourself or party member who doesn't), Enhance ability, Enlarge/Reduce, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Pass without Trace (pretty much a must have on any druid, imo), Silence, Spike Growth.
In the Cleric UA on the Divine Spell List, Bless (never becomes useless), Command, Cure Wounds, Detect Magic, Healing Word, Heroism, Shield of Faith. 2nd level, Aid (though less useful now in the UA than in 5E, unfortunately), Augury, Blindness/Deafness, Calm Emotions, Hold Person, Lesser Restoration, Prayer of Healing, Silence, Spiritual Weapon, Zone of Truth.
All of these are pretty good non/low-damage or utility spells, that would be good on Cleric and Druid prepared lists. I wouldn't feel bad having those as options because my cantrips could do better damage as I level up.
I'm not sure if I like the restriction of prepared/spell slot, looking at my level 15 Druid I'm playing right now I have 3 4th level spells, 3 5th level spells, 2 6th level spells, 2 7th, and 1 8th prepared, so I would lose that option if this rule was instituted by my DM, but I would still be fine with those spell options, if that's what I had to do.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
LOL no it will not be. It will be backwards compatible with adventure modules sort-of but not with previous player character options, because making it compatible with previous player options would be them shooting themselves in the foot in terms of future books sales since player character option sell much better than any other books.
I have seen Charm Person cast in a game exactly once in 3 years of playing D&D, the fact that people know you cast it afterwards makes it usually a bad spell to use. Feather Fall gets cast maybe one or twice a campaign, Comprehend Languages is a ritual spell (hopefully Wizards don't need to prepare that) and again sees use maybe once or twice a campaign, Augury's fine but lots of classes get it and you don't need everyone having it, Enlarge/Reduce is not worth your concentration a high levels, Phantasmal Force is likewise not worth your concentration at high levels - you'll be concentrating on a 4th, 5th or 6th level spell.
I've seen the spells I've listed used plenty, even at high levels. If you don't, that's fine; provide your feedback on spell preparation, and if they move forward with it anyway, get your DM to houserule it. I won't care either way, I've sad my piece.
Maybe the fact that these perfectly fine spells like charm person hasn't been prepared or cast that often at your table is part of the problem. The focus on only the tippy top of spells is causing players to miss out on perfectly good spells and people could have more fun seeing a wider variety of stuff.
Charm Person is not a perfectly fine spell, though it's unclear whether the problem is with the intended effect of the spell or with the way it's written.
Just applying the charmed isn't great, so if that's all it does... not worthwhile. As written, it does have the additional effect of "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance", but nowhere in the spell does it define what that means.
It could be intended that this is the same meaning as "friendly" in the DMG, in which case it's actually a fairly decent spell that's poorly explained (though still not as bad as suggestion, which ranges from super powerful to useless depending on how the DM interprets "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable.").
If your DM rules that a stranger or foe treating you as a friendly acquaintance can't possibly be useful then... that's hardly a problem with the game.
I feel like the real issue is the penalties associated with spells like that once the spell expires. In combat they're largely useless since, you know, fighting. But out of combat the 'the creature knows it was charmed by you' is a penalty that's exceedingly harsh and means it's basically a single-use spell. Even then the GM can easily just no-sell it even when the spell works. Like, say, you're trying to get past some guards and use it. The guard could just go 'sorry, but no one is allowed past, even if you're a friend' or something. Charm Person and similar stuff feels more like a way to ensure everyone hates the party than anything. Not to mention that odds are anyone actually trying to cast it is a CHA-focused character with persuasion or something as a skill meaning they're likely looking at a +6 bonus even at level 1 with no 'everyone will be out for your guts after' type thing either. Charm Person's just... not a good spell.
Edit: Druids and Wizards can cast it and are not CHA-focused, but bards, sorcs, and locks make up a big chunk of it's casters and are CHA-focused so... yea.
That's why the wording is a problem.
I still don't know what to say to this other than your DM appears to take more joy in stonewalling you than validating your creativity. In which case, yeah you're probably right that low level spells aren't useful for you, but that's not WotC's problem to solve.
Like if I was friends with a guard, yeah he probably wouldn't risk getting fired or jailed to let me inside - but he might tell me where I can go to get permission, or what proof he'd accept to allow passage, or which neighboring window has a good vantage point to see inside, or maybe even what time the changing of the guard is so that he personally wouldn't get in trouble. You know, something that keeps the plot moving. That's like, the goal, right?
And I want to add in to this that it doesn't say that the person becomes hostile to you. Just that they know they were charmed by you. Might piss them off a bit, but usually the person you are charming wasn't someone that was friendly to you to begin with. You might meet them one or two times and that is it and an hour of their friendship is all you really need. Some NPC's will find your ruse clever and be amused that you charmed them, others will be mad and be hostile the next time you see them... if you see them. It says they know they were charmed, it does not say what they do with that knowledge. It isn't a ruse you can keep up forever, but it is still a perfectly fine and serviceable spell. One of many lower level spells that people rarely use that are perfectly fine and even upcast decently. Charm person with a 4th or 5th level spell can get a whole 4 or 5 people. Suggestion doesn't upcast.
Charm Person is more about the charmed condition. The guard should only be telling sorry no one is allowed to pass after you failed your persuasion check with advantage. Then when you run passed them they won’t attack you. Maybe yell at you about how you’re going to get them fired, but they won’t attack you.
That's not what the charmed condition does. It doesn't let you make any persuasion roll you wouldn't be able to attempt anyway. The value of charm person, if anything, lies in the "friendly acquaintance" verbiage.
That's still very risky for a spell that's going to likely end up with you on a bunch of wanted lists regardless of what you actually charm out of them. Even in entirely benign situations people don't take kindly to being magically influenced against their will after all. Regardless, I don't feel like Charm Person is strong enough and has ample enough downsides and drawbacks to not be even remotely close to 'overpowered'.
I never said it was "overpowered", I said it was useful. Are you confusing me with another poster?
If you are trying to get passed a guard and cast charm person on them I’m assuming you are going to ask them to let you passed them. So you’re correct it doesn’t allow you to do a roll you wouldn’t normally be allowed to make, but your assumption that you aren’t allowed to make the roll is a problem. Also note you have no argument against the second part of my statement which you conveniently left off. They can’t attack you if just walk passed them. That’s way more valuable than “friendly acquaintance.”
Please don’t quote me if you are going to shorten the quote. Either just reply or leave my statement whole. That”s some weird politician stuff.
Disguise Self (or an actual disguise) and charm person combo. Works every time. Well if they fail the save.
You aren't going to end up on the wanted list with Charm Person any more than you would end up on that same list for doing what you wanted to do with that Charm Person in another way. If you are trying to sneak into a rich gala and charm the guards or you sneak in another way without disguises, people will know you were there and boom wanted list unless, of course, the reason you did so was something like you needed to tell the person in charge something important that the city captain didn't want him knowing about or something. That guy is the one who is or isn't going to put you on his wanted list, not the guards. Piss the guard off that is fine, but if you entertain the host the guard can be mad that is his problem. I also at no point called it 'overpowered' I said perfectly fine and serviceable and you don't NEED a bunch of OP spells to be fine as a caster.
You said it WASN'T perfectly fine and serviceable. Now, considering you said it isn't fine and it is not close to 'overpowered' does this mean that your definition of "fine a serviceable spell" is "overpowered spell and all others aren't worth the paper they are printed on"? because if so, then we have definitely spotted the problem.
I mean, most of the time a guard probably wouldn't attack someone immediately for walking past them anyway. They would physically block the way, or call the rest of the guard to capture you and throw you in jail. But that's at low levels. Sure Charm Person is useful from level 1-7, that's when most 1st level spells are useful. But we're talking about level 10+ when the PCs are legendary heroes that can slay an adult dragon with ease, getting past a guard is not a challenge to them any more, because they probably have their own keep and several guards at their personal command at this point.
And the guard says no, the same as they would if not charmed. There are plenty of times when persuasion either can't be attempted, or has a ridiculous DC, and getting advantage on your roll won't make any difference. You need something to turn the normally impossible rolls possible.