What if in ONE DnD you could put your stats below 8 until 6 to get more points to spend in the rest that you want to focus on? Like from 8 to 7 would give you +1 buy point and from 7 to 6 would give you +2 buy points... ?
Am I mad?
<EDIT>
If to get an even number above 13 you need 2 buy points you should get 2 buy points to get an even number below 7. Wich is 6. So +3 buy points total if you dump stat that hard.
That should allow some better possibilities to multi-classy stuff too. But max stat before bonus should still be 15.
But that is my opinion. I will go take my meds now.
<EDIT>
By the way, it could be only a optional rule, like BoringBard said.
... you could put your stats below 8 until 6 to get more points to spend in the rest that you want to focus on? Like from 8 to 7 would give you +1 buy point and from 7 to 6 would give you +2 buy points... ?
Am I mad?
Well, your name says you are mad. XD
The only problem with this is that most characters have at least one ability score they would happily dump to 6 so they could raise their main stats. The min-maxing would be hard for anyone to resist. Which may or may not matter depending on the particular group.
I've always wanted to go lower than 8, because I think low scores can encourage good RP situations. But I never wanted a score to start above 17 after bonuses. It just takes away some of the fun and balance to me.
So when I've considered this, I thought maybe allow someone to drop from an 8 to a 6 to get one point back, and still not allow them to go higher than 15.
I personally dislike that the ability bonus range is a measly -1 to +2. I'd like to go as low as 7 for an extra point or 2 and as high as 16 at a cost of 2 to 3 points.
Since I (like most players according to statistics) never get to play above 8th level and would like to try having an 18 or 20 in my main stats and a complimenting feat...
(Our level 4 campaign got scrapped and I have been level 1 for the last 3 months. My tale is tragic...)
I personally dislike that the ability bonus range is a measly -1 to +2. I'd like to go as low as 7 for an extra point or 2 and as high as 16 at a cost of 2 to 3 points.
Since I (like most players according to statistics) never get to play above 8th level and would like to try having an 18 or 20 in my main stats and a complimenting feat...
(Our level 4 campaign got scrapped and I have been level 1 for the last 3 months. My tale is tragic...)
Awww, I'm sorry. That stinks. I hope you get a longer game soon!
One good thing about 1DnD is the way the feats and ASIs work. So if you start with a 15 in a stat, and add +2 from your background, you can begin with a 17. Then at level 4 you can make it an 18 and still get a feat. And at level 8 you can max the stat to 20 if you want, or get another feat and max out with one more at level 12 (if you think the game could go that long).
So with Point Buy in 1DnD, you can have your first level feat and a 17 at level 1, another feat and an 18 at level 4, and max after that. It feels a lot better just from the feat progression.
To me, one of the best things about rolling for stats is the chance to get a low score that you wouldn't normally. It makes you think about the character differently when you have real flaws. But the downside is that you could equally start with an 18 or 20 in a stat and have no room for real growth later. And worse still, you can have players with vastly different power levels depending on their rolls.
I like Point Buy a lot because of that. The only thing I miss is the low scores. So I would really like to see some balanced way to buy down a stat. One that doesn't just become another way to min max. I think maybe only getting one point back for every 2 you lower a stat might work. But I'll have to try it. Possibly in the next playtest.
Or it could be as easy as just beginning with one six and adjust the points available accordingly.
Still think -2 stat for +1 buy points is bad trade though.
If to get an even number above 13 you need 2 buy points you should get 2 buy points to get an even number below 7. Wich is 6. So +3 buy points total if you dump stat that hard.
That should allow some better possibilities to multi-classy stuff too.
But that is my opinion. I will go take my meds now.
Haha. No, you might be totally right. It might be that a -2 skill and save penalty is enough to scare most people off. I'm just overly cautious when house ruling things.
Currently with point buy, the most you can min-max stats is three 15s and three 8s. Then spread your background bonuses out for +1 in each of the 15s to end up with three 16s and three 8s. Or you can get one stat to 17, one 16, and one 15, with three 8s if you plan to take a half feat at level 4.
So I guess it's really a matter of calculating what you could do if one of those 8s was a 6 and you got some more points. You're probably right that a single buy point isn't going to be worth much. It would take an 8 to a 9, but that's the same penalty. If you got two points back you could get a 10 which is nice to have no penalty on rolls but probably not too powerful.
You could end with 16, 16, 16, 10, 8, 6.
Or 17, 16, 15, 10, 8, 6.
That doesn't look awful. I'd need to play around with the middle ground to see what 3 buy points would do. If you could squeeze out some extra bonuses. I love the idea of being able to get stats below 8. I'm just thinking out loud through the consequences.
I am playing OotA for first time with a friend and people I am looking foward to know better.
But our Paladin does not like the idea of having ANY dump stat. His minimum score is 10. Its not everyone that likes to be crooked. But it can be fun.
I myself like the idea of doing this cause makes for more possibilities of RP and really mark your character at the same time you have new possibilities.
We have a Monk that is trying to make a spy-shadow-monk with Charisma. But she ended up loosing her Wis potential. But is her choice. She says she can manage it. But if she could dump a stat harder she would not loose the Wis potential that her Monk could use [edit]> and would still have her Charisma up. If she chooses so.
...you could put your stats below 8 until 6 to get more points to spend in the rest that you want to focus on? Like from 8 to 7 would give you +1 buy point and from 7 to 6 would give you +2 buy points... ?
Am I mad?
I have no idea whether or not you are mad, but I dislike this proposal. As Steg said, it would allow min-maxers to dump everything in stats they don't need and buy up the stats they badly want in the process. So not only would it allow for more min-maxing, but it would punish classes that are MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependent) because they don't have many ability scores they could dump. This would make classes like Monk even weaker mechanically than the already are.
I think this rule might work as a variant players can use with DM approval with one major modification: The typical cap to a player character's stat are 20 for each ability score. In 5e, there really isn't a way to get a score that high at low levels, but the rule you are proposing would change this. Thusly, the maximum ability score for your stat might have to be made to scale and be different at different levels. For example, 18 max at first level, and maybe you can only have an ability score reach 20 when you get your first ASI at level 4?
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...you could put your stats below 8 until 6 to get more points to spend in the rest that you want to focus on? Like from 8 to 7 would give you +1 buy point and from 7 to 6 would give you +2 buy points... ?
Am I mad?
I have no idea whether or not you are mad, but I dislike this proposal. As Steg said, it would allow min-maxers to dump everything in stats they don't need and buy up the stats they badly want in the process. So not only would it allow for more min-maxing, but it would punish classes that are MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependent) because they don't have many ability scores they could dump. This would make classes like Monk even weaker mechanically than the already are.
I think this rule might work as a variant players can use with DM approval with one major modification: The typical cap to a player character's stat are 20 for each ability score. In 5e, there really isn't a way to get a score that high at low levels, but the rule you are proposing would change this. Thusly, the maximum ability score for your stat might have to be made to scale and be different at different levels. For example, 18 max at first level, and maybe you can only have an ability score reach 20 when you get your first ASI at level 4?
Weird. I find the opposite, with my Rogue/Monk.
My char is "MAD" and this would help it a lot. Yet... we don't know how the next Monk will be like... Call me MAD but it seems worth the test, the shot. Still the max should be fifteen. For plusfive to strike. Even MAD I like investigation and the plot. Maybe this idea someone could dislike. But could be fun for everyone. Min-maxer or not.
My char is "MAD" and this would help it a lot. Yet... we don't know how the next Monk will be like... Call me MAD but it seems worth the test, the shot. Still the max should be fifteen. For plusfive to strike. Even MAD I like investigation and the plot.
Hmmm. I guess a more accurate statement would be that classes without a clear dump stat would be disadvantaged by this, because you never want to have a low score in an ability score that might be useful. So this might affect classes like Artificer without an ability score that they just don't need.
But [it] could be fun for everyone. Min-maxer or not.
Yes, it could be. However, just because people other than min-maxers could enjoy it doesn't erase the fact that those optimizers could exploit it to make an even more powerful build. But anyways, a lot of how well this ability would work depends on how it is implemented and the exact specifics of it, because even small aspects of a rule can mess up the whole thing. Due to this, I really can't pick between having it as an optional rule or not having at all, since so much of depends on effective implementation.
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Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
My char is "MAD" and this would help it a lot. Yet... we don't know how the next Monk will be like... Call me MAD but it seems worth the test, the shot. Still the max should be fifteen. For plusfive to strike. Even MAD I like investigation and the plot.
Hmmm. I guess a more accurate statement would be that classes without a clear dump stat would be disadvantaged by this, because you never want to have a low score in an ability score that might be useful. So this might affect classes like Artificer without an ability score that they just don't need.
But [it] could be fun for everyone. Min-maxer or not.
Yes, it could be. However, just because people other than min-maxers could enjoy it doesn't erase the fact that those optimizers could exploit it to make an even more powerful build. But anyways, a lot of how well this ability would work depends on how it is implemented and the exact specifics of it, because even small aspects of a rule can mess up the whole thing. Due to this, I really can't pick between having it as an optional rule or not having at all, since so much of depends on effective implementation.
I think you are right. There is much to be done first to see if this could work or not.
Makes absolute sense. Max should still be 15 while buying stuff.
6 on some stat could make things funnier and RP interesting.
Back when full Orcs got a -2 to Intelligence, my wife played an Orc Barbarian and chose Intelligence as her dump stat in the Standard Array. That's a 6 Int. Endless fun.
...you could put your stats below 8 until 6 to get more points to spend in the rest that you want to focus on? Like from 8 to 7 would give you +1 buy point and from 7 to 6 would give you +2 buy points... ?
Am I mad?
I have no idea whether or not you are mad, but I dislike this proposal. As Steg said, it would allow min-maxers to dump everything in stats they don't need and buy up the stats they badly want in the process. So not only would it allow for more min-maxing, but it would punish classes that are MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependent) because they don't have many ability scores they could dump. This would make classes like Monk even weaker mechanically than the already are.
I think this rule might work as a variant players can use with DM approval with one major modification: The typical cap to a player character's stat are 20 for each ability score. In 5e, there really isn't a way to get a score that high at low levels, but the rule you are proposing would change this. Thusly, the maximum ability score for your stat might have to be made to scale and be different at different levels. For example, 18 max at first level, and maybe you can only have an ability score reach 20 when you get your first ASI at level 4?
It actually already is possible to get an 18 at first level with point but in 5E. and thus 20 at 4th. It is made re-impossible in One DnD however.
Custom Lineage gives you +2 to a stat and a feat so if you pick a half feat, you can get another +1 to a stat, giving a total of +3 which is just enough to get an 18 (15+3) at first level. Half feats not being pickable at first level makes this impossible in One D&D but it is possible in 5E; it has not broken anything from my experience and comes at the cost of not having a second 16.
Despite the ability to have an 18 at 1st level, I still see paladins, an MAD class, at my more min maxy tables due to the merits of the class.
The problem with massive dumps is that, as your stat gets lower, you typically manage to find ways to roll it less, so the importance of yet another -1 modifier is reduced. I would actually be tempted by:
I'd prefer to see first-level characters capped at an ability score of 15-16. Nobody should be starting with an 18 in anything. The game isn't any fun if there's not enough room for your character to grow, IMO.
I'd prefer to see first-level characters capped at an ability score of 15-16. Nobody should be starting with an 18 in anything. The game isn't any fun if there's not enough room for your character to grow, IMO.
Your character can still grow. Getting 20 in your stats isn't the end of progression. As someone who regularly plays in 1-20 campaigns, getting your primary stat to 20 is honestly not even the half way mark. From class features to new spells, feats, magic items, boons, blessings, etc. Still plenty of room.
Honestly my perspective on wanting to have higher starting stats isn't even about getting to 20 at lower level so much as it is not having to give up opportunity for feats to progress stats.
I like the dragonlance rule of every character getting a free feat at level 1 and 4. I feel like that solves my problem (though I expand the list of feats a little more).
I hate dump stats. Heroes (or villains) should be well rounded and exceptional. Instead, we end up with the Looney Toons dogs. One a smart midget, the other a giant moron. Raise the cap and do not refund points for stats below 10 (or 8 at best).
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What if in ONE DnD you could put your stats below 8 until 6 to get more points to spend in the rest that you want to focus on? Like from 8 to 7 would give you +1 buy point and from 7 to 6 would give you +2 buy points... ?
Am I mad?
<EDIT>
If to get an even number above 13 you need 2 buy points you should get 2 buy points to get an even number below 7. Wich is 6. So +3 buy points total if you dump stat that hard.
That should allow some better possibilities to multi-classy stuff too. But max stat before bonus should still be 15.
But that is my opinion. I will go take my meds now.
<EDIT>
By the way, it could be only a optional rule, like BoringBard said.
Well, your name says you are mad. XD
The only problem with this is that most characters have at least one ability score they would happily dump to 6 so they could raise their main stats. The min-maxing would be hard for anyone to resist. Which may or may not matter depending on the particular group.
I've always wanted to go lower than 8, because I think low scores can encourage good RP situations. But I never wanted a score to start above 17 after bonuses. It just takes away some of the fun and balance to me.
So when I've considered this, I thought maybe allow someone to drop from an 8 to a 6 to get one point back, and still not allow them to go higher than 15.
Makes absolute sense. Max should still be 15 while buying stuff.
6 on some stat could make things funnier and RP interesting.
I personally dislike that the ability bonus range is a measly -1 to +2. I'd like to go as low as 7 for an extra point or 2 and as high as 16 at a cost of 2 to 3 points.
Since I (like most players according to statistics) never get to play above 8th level and would like to try having an 18 or 20 in my main stats and a complimenting feat...
(Our level 4 campaign got scrapped and I have been level 1 for the last 3 months. My tale is tragic...)
Awww, I'm sorry. That stinks. I hope you get a longer game soon!
One good thing about 1DnD is the way the feats and ASIs work. So if you start with a 15 in a stat, and add +2 from your background, you can begin with a 17. Then at level 4 you can make it an 18 and still get a feat. And at level 8 you can max the stat to 20 if you want, or get another feat and max out with one more at level 12 (if you think the game could go that long).
So with Point Buy in 1DnD, you can have your first level feat and a 17 at level 1, another feat and an 18 at level 4, and max after that. It feels a lot better just from the feat progression.
To me, one of the best things about rolling for stats is the chance to get a low score that you wouldn't normally. It makes you think about the character differently when you have real flaws. But the downside is that you could equally start with an 18 or 20 in a stat and have no room for real growth later. And worse still, you can have players with vastly different power levels depending on their rolls.
I like Point Buy a lot because of that. The only thing I miss is the low scores. So I would really like to see some balanced way to buy down a stat. One that doesn't just become another way to min max. I think maybe only getting one point back for every 2 you lower a stat might work. But I'll have to try it. Possibly in the next playtest.
Or it could be as easy as just beginning with one six and adjust the points available accordingly.
Still think -2 stat for +1 buy points is bad trade though.
If to get an even number above 13 you need 2 buy points you should get 2 buy points to get an even number below 7. Wich is 6. So +3 buy points total if you dump stat that hard.
That should allow some better possibilities to multi-classy stuff too.
But that is my opinion. I will go take my meds now.
Haha. No, you might be totally right. It might be that a -2 skill and save penalty is enough to scare most people off. I'm just overly cautious when house ruling things.
Currently with point buy, the most you can min-max stats is three 15s and three 8s. Then spread your background bonuses out for +1 in each of the 15s to end up with three 16s and three 8s. Or you can get one stat to 17, one 16, and one 15, with three 8s if you plan to take a half feat at level 4.
So I guess it's really a matter of calculating what you could do if one of those 8s was a 6 and you got some more points. You're probably right that a single buy point isn't going to be worth much. It would take an 8 to a 9, but that's the same penalty. If you got two points back you could get a 10 which is nice to have no penalty on rolls but probably not too powerful.
You could end with 16, 16, 16, 10, 8, 6.
Or 17, 16, 15, 10, 8, 6.
That doesn't look awful. I'd need to play around with the middle ground to see what 3 buy points would do. If you could squeeze out some extra bonuses. I love the idea of being able to get stats below 8. I'm just thinking out loud through the consequences.
I am playing OotA for first time with a friend and people I am looking foward to know better.
But our Paladin does not like the idea of having ANY dump stat. His minimum score is 10. Its not everyone that likes to be crooked. But it can be fun.
I myself like the idea of doing this cause makes for more possibilities of RP and really mark your character at the same time you have new possibilities.
We have a Monk that is trying to make a spy-shadow-monk with Charisma. But she ended up loosing her Wis potential. But is her choice. She says she can manage it. But if she could dump a stat harder she would not loose the Wis potential that her Monk could use [edit]> and would still have her Charisma up. If she chooses so.
I would go for a 10[Str] 17[Dex] 13[Con] 14[Int] 15[Wis] 6[Cha] for my Rogue-AT/Monk-WotS.
One dump stat is enough for me. :P
I have no idea whether or not you are mad, but I dislike this proposal. As Steg said, it would allow min-maxers to dump everything in stats they don't need and buy up the stats they badly want in the process. So not only would it allow for more min-maxing, but it would punish classes that are MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependent) because they don't have many ability scores they could dump. This would make classes like Monk even weaker mechanically than the already are.
I think this rule might work as a variant players can use with DM approval with one major modification: The typical cap to a player character's stat are 20 for each ability score. In 5e, there really isn't a way to get a score that high at low levels, but the rule you are proposing would change this. Thusly, the maximum ability score for your stat might have to be made to scale and be different at different levels. For example, 18 max at first level, and maybe you can only have an ability score reach 20 when you get your first ASI at level 4?
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Weird. I find the opposite, with my Rogue/Monk.
My char is "MAD" and this would help it a lot.
Yet... we don't know how the next Monk will be like...
Call me MAD but it seems worth the test, the shot.
Still the max should be fifteen. For plusfive to strike.
Even MAD I like investigation and the plot.
Maybe this idea someone could dislike.
But could be fun for everyone. Min-maxer or not.
Hmmm. I guess a more accurate statement would be that classes without a clear dump stat would be disadvantaged by this, because you never want to have a low score in an ability score that might be useful. So this might affect classes like Artificer without an ability score that they just don't need.
Yes, it could be. However, just because people other than min-maxers could enjoy it doesn't erase the fact that those optimizers could exploit it to make an even more powerful build. But anyways, a lot of how well this ability would work depends on how it is implemented and the exact specifics of it, because even small aspects of a rule can mess up the whole thing. Due to this, I really can't pick between having it as an optional rule or not having at all, since so much of depends on effective implementation.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.I think you are right. There is much to be done first to see if this could work or not.
Back when full Orcs got a -2 to Intelligence, my wife played an Orc Barbarian and chose Intelligence as her dump stat in the Standard Array. That's a 6 Int. Endless fun.
It actually already is possible to get an 18 at first level with point but in 5E. and thus 20 at 4th. It is made re-impossible in One DnD however.
Custom Lineage gives you +2 to a stat and a feat so if you pick a half feat, you can get another +1 to a stat, giving a total of +3 which is just enough to get an 18 (15+3) at first level. Half feats not being pickable at first level makes this impossible in One D&D but it is possible in 5E; it has not broken anything from my experience and comes at the cost of not having a second 16.
Despite the ability to have an 18 at 1st level, I still see paladins, an MAD class, at my more min maxy tables due to the merits of the class.
The problem with massive dumps is that, as your stat gets lower, you typically manage to find ways to roll it less, so the importance of yet another -1 modifier is reduced. I would actually be tempted by:
Getting typical standard array starting values of 17/14/14/12/10/8 or 16/16/13/12/10/8 costs 24 (and you can bump the 8 to a 9 for free).
I'd prefer to see first-level characters capped at an ability score of 15-16. Nobody should be starting with an 18 in anything. The game isn't any fun if there's not enough room for your character to grow, IMO.
Your character can still grow. Getting 20 in your stats isn't the end of progression. As someone who regularly plays in 1-20 campaigns, getting your primary stat to 20 is honestly not even the half way mark. From class features to new spells, feats, magic items, boons, blessings, etc. Still plenty of room.
Honestly my perspective on wanting to have higher starting stats isn't even about getting to 20 at lower level so much as it is not having to give up opportunity for feats to progress stats.
I like the dragonlance rule of every character getting a free feat at level 1 and 4. I feel like that solves my problem (though I expand the list of feats a little more).
I hate dump stats. Heroes (or villains) should be well rounded and exceptional. Instead, we end up with the Looney Toons dogs. One a smart midget, the other a giant moron. Raise the cap and do not refund points for stats below 10 (or 8 at best).