You should expand you fiction. I constantly watch things were characters say they barely noticed or couldn’t see a person’s move because how fast they were. In action movies normal people have achieved jumps that are impossible. It’s all fiction, it’s all cartoonish. It’s only explaination is that it is fiction.
And did those sources explain how those people moved that fast and jumped that far? If it wasn't spells then what?
Like when Thor does it, it's because he's an alien god. When Hulk does it it's because he's a mutated monster. There's always an explanation like that, that you can't account for simply via push-ups.
The battlemaster fighter has per short rest maneuvers, those aren't spells. My point is you can have per rest maneuvers handle things like this. Like I said copy the mechanics behind the warlock. There is a reason a lot of people think of the warlock as really a magic archer class. Its mechanics line up fairly solidly with how a martial can work. Base line solid attack. Enhancements to that attack. Powerful per short rest maneuvers, end game high end once per day maneuvers. If the 5e the warlock did not exist and they had re-flavored it as the fighter no one would question it being martial or a spell any more than they do the battle master maneuvers.
Of course people would question it. You know why they accept it for a Warlock? They literally got bestowed those abilities from a supernatural being. Not from running laps!
You should expand you fiction. I constantly watch things were characters say they barely noticed or couldn’t see a person’s move because how fast they were. In action movies normal people have achieved jumps that are impossible. It’s all fiction, it’s all cartoonish. It’s only explaination is that it is fiction.
And did those sources explain how those people moved that fast and jumped that far? If it wasn't spells then what?
Like when Thor does it, it's because he's an alien god. When Hulk does it it's because he's a mutated monster. There's always an explanation like that, that you can't account for simply via push-ups.
The battlemaster fighter has per short rest maneuvers, those aren't spells. My point is you can have per rest maneuvers handle things like this. Like I said copy the mechanics behind the warlock. There is a reason a lot of people think of the warlock as really a magic archer class. Its mechanics line up fairly solidly with how a martial can work. Base line solid attack. Enhancements to that attack. Powerful per short rest maneuvers, end game high end once per day maneuvers. If the 5e the warlock did not exist and they had re-flavored it as the fighter no one would question it being martial or a spell any more than they do the battle master maneuvers.
Of course people would question it. You know why they accept it for a Warlock? They literally got bestowed those abilities from a supernatural being. Not from running laps!
Sometimes it’s because they trained to move that fast. They can’t do it all the time because of how much stress it puts on the body, but they can move that fast when really necessary. If you want strong adherence to Tolkien like fantasy source materials then spell casters should need material components a lot more. They also shouldn’t be able to cast powerful spells so quickly. Especially not in succession. If you can break the laws of physics with magic you can break it with training. Gutz no magic. Batman no Magic. Every strong person in Fast and furious franchise No Magic. Most 80s action movies no magic
If you can break the laws of physics with magic you can break it with training. Gutz no magic. Batman no Magic. Every strong person in Fast and furious franchise No Magic. Most 80s action movies no magic
So respectively: anime, normal human + gadgets, normal human + cars, normal human. Got it.
Like which 80s movie or fast and the furious movie had humans jumping 400 ft? Got a clip?
You should expand you fiction. I constantly watch things were characters say they barely noticed or couldn’t see a person’s move because how fast they were. In action movies normal people have achieved jumps that are impossible. It’s all fiction, it’s all cartoonish. It’s only explaination is that it is fiction.
And did those sources explain how those people moved that fast and jumped that far? If it wasn't spells then what?
Like when Thor does it, it's because he's an alien god. When Hulk does it it's because he's a mutated monster. There's always an explanation like that, that you can't account for simply via push-ups.
The battlemaster fighter has per short rest maneuvers, those aren't spells. My point is you can have per rest maneuvers handle things like this. Like I said copy the mechanics behind the warlock. There is a reason a lot of people think of the warlock as really a magic archer class. Its mechanics line up fairly solidly with how a martial can work. Base line solid attack. Enhancements to that attack. Powerful per short rest maneuvers, end game high end once per day maneuvers. If the 5e the warlock did not exist and they had re-flavored it as the fighter no one would question it being martial or a spell any more than they do the battle master maneuvers.
Of course people would question it. You know why they accept it for a Warlock? They literally got bestowed those abilities from a supernatural being. Not from running laps!
Who cares if it came from magic, its a option, you can always pick the more mundane feeling one and call it training. The power words would be very easy to flavor, a stunning blow, a death blow etc. If you want to feel totally mundane take those. Every level there are plenty of spells which can be described in a way that is non magical. Take those options if that is what you want.
You should expand you fiction. I constantly watch things were characters say they barely noticed or couldn’t see a person’s move because how fast they were. In action movies normal people have achieved jumps that are impossible. It’s all fiction, it’s all cartoonish. It’s only explaination is that it is fiction.
And did those sources explain how those people moved that fast and jumped that far? If it wasn't spells then what?
Like when Thor does it, it's because he's an alien god. When Hulk does it it's because he's a mutated monster. There's always an explanation like that, that you can't account for simply via push-ups.
The battlemaster fighter has per short rest maneuvers, those aren't spells. My point is you can have per rest maneuvers handle things like this. Like I said copy the mechanics behind the warlock. There is a reason a lot of people think of the warlock as really a magic archer class. Its mechanics line up fairly solidly with how a martial can work. Base line solid attack. Enhancements to that attack. Powerful per short rest maneuvers, end game high end once per day maneuvers. If the 5e the warlock did not exist and they had re-flavored it as the fighter no one would question it being martial or a spell any more than they do the battle master maneuvers.
Of course people would question it. You know why they accept it for a Warlock? They literally got bestowed those abilities from a supernatural being. Not from running laps!
Who cares if it came from magic, its a option, you can always pick the more mundane feeling one and call it training. The power words would be very easy to flavor, a stunning blow, a death blow etc. If you want to feel totally mundane take those. Every level there are plenty of spells which can be described in a way that is non magical. Take those options if that is what you want.
I'm fine with "more mundane feeling options." It's when you just rewrite a bunch of spells as martial maneuvers and call it a day that I start pointing you back to 4e.
You should expand you fiction. I constantly watch things were characters say they barely noticed or couldn’t see a person’s move because how fast they were. In action movies normal people have achieved jumps that are impossible. It’s all fiction, it’s all cartoonish. It’s only explaination is that it is fiction.
And did those sources explain how those people moved that fast and jumped that far? If it wasn't spells then what?
Like when Thor does it, it's because he's an alien god. When Hulk does it it's because he's a mutated monster. There's always an explanation like that, that you can't account for simply via push-ups.
The battlemaster fighter has per short rest maneuvers, those aren't spells. My point is you can have per rest maneuvers handle things like this. Like I said copy the mechanics behind the warlock. There is a reason a lot of people think of the warlock as really a magic archer class. Its mechanics line up fairly solidly with how a martial can work. Base line solid attack. Enhancements to that attack. Powerful per short rest maneuvers, end game high end once per day maneuvers. If the 5e the warlock did not exist and they had re-flavored it as the fighter no one would question it being martial or a spell any more than they do the battle master maneuvers.
Of course people would question it. You know why they accept it for a Warlock? They literally got bestowed those abilities from a supernatural being. Not from running laps!
Who cares if it came from magic, its a option, you can always pick the more mundane feeling one and call it training. The power words would be very easy to flavor, a stunning blow, a death blow etc. If you want to feel totally mundane take those. Every level there are plenty of spells which can be described in a way that is non magical. Take those options if that is what you want.
So your solution to the martial/caster difference issues is to just make martials casters and tell us to pretend they're martials? Really?
If you can break the laws of physics with magic you can break it with training. Gutz no magic. Batman no Magic. Every strong person in Fast and furious franchise No Magic. Most 80s action movies no magic
So respectively: anime, normal human + gadgets, normal human + cars, normal human. Got it.
Like which 80s movie or fast and the furious movie had humans jumping 400 ft? Got a clip?
Batman’s strongest feat isn’t him using gadgets. The strength and endurance feats from fast and furious have nothing to do with the cars. I like the way you try to focus only on the 80s movies because you know anime definitely has normal humans jumping that far, but you forgot they were making king fu movies in the 80s as well. I can’t give you an exact 400 foot jump but there were plenty of impossible jumps. Also this is fiction so the only limits are the ones you place. Real people can’t shoot fire from their hands. Yet you are oddly okay with that. Also why did you not address that in Tolkien and many other fantasies Magic takes longer to cast. It requires items and components more often and powerful magic usually can’t be used in rapid succession. May that’s the fix. All spells other than cantrips require focus or material components. When you cast a spell equal to your proficiency bonus or above you can no longer cast spells equal to your proficiency bonus or above without strain until you finish a short rest or long rest. The strain of attempting to cast a spell of those levels without a rest causes you to take levels of exhaustion and risk spell failure. Make a DC 10+ level of the spell constitution check. On a success the spell cast as normal. On a failure you don’t expend the spell slot. Either outcome you take a a number of levels of exhaustion equal to 1+ 1per spell level above your pb.
If you can break the laws of physics with magic you can break it with training. Gutz no magic. Batman no Magic. Every strong person in Fast and furious franchise No Magic. Most 80s action movies no magic
So respectively: anime, normal human + gadgets, normal human + cars, normal human. Got it.
Like which 80s movie or fast and the furious movie had humans jumping 400 ft? Got a clip?
Batman’s strongest feat isn’t him using gadgets. The strength and endurance feats from fast and furious have nothing to do with the cars. I like the way you try to focus only on the 80s movies because you know anime definitely has normal humans jumping that far, but you forgot they were making king fu movies in the 80s as well. I can’t give you an exact 400 foot jump but there were plenty of impossible jumps. Also this is fiction so the only limits are the ones you place. Real people can’t shoot fire from their hands. Yet you are oddly okay with that. Also why did you not address that in Tolkien and many other fantasies Magic takes longer to cast. It requires items and components more often and powerful magic usually can’t be used in rapid succession. May that’s the fix. All spells other than cantrips require focus or material components. When you cast a spell equal to your proficiency bonus or above you can no longer cast spells equal to your proficiency bonus or above without strain until you finish a short rest or long rest. The strain of attempting to cast a spell of those levels without a rest causes you to take levels of exhaustion and risk spell failure. Make a DC 10+ level of the spell constitution check. On a success the spell cast as normal. On a failure you don’t expend the spell slot. Either outcome you take a a number of levels of exhaustion equal to 1+ 1per spell level above your pb.
Oh yes, nerf spells into the ground, that'll go over well.
Anime does provide examples of the "superhuman through training" trope. It also has a wholly different dynamic than the medieval fantasy D&D seeks to emulate. The entire design philosophy around classes like Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, and to a slightly lesser extent Monk is that by their core class features they could plausibly be regular individuals at the far right of the bell curve until you start crunching some numbers. Fighter and Rogue in particular have a lot of subclasses that don't include any magical features. While in a void going anime is technically a solution to "balance the power scale" between martials and casters, it's not one that fits the D&D design philosophy.
Batman’s strongest feat isn’t him using gadgets. The strength and endurance feats from fast and furious have nothing to do with the cars. I like the way you try to focus only on the 80s movies because you know anime definitely has normal humans jumping that far, but you forgot they were making king fu movies in the 80s as well. I can’t give you an exact 400 foot jump but there were plenty of impossible jumps. Also this is fiction so the only limits are the ones you place. Real people can’t shoot fire from their hands. Yet you are oddly okay with that. Also why did you not address that in Tolkien and many other fantasies Magic takes longer to cast. It requires items and components more often and powerful magic usually can’t be used in rapid succession. May that’s the fix. All spells other than cantrips require focus or material components. When you cast a spell equal to your proficiency bonus or above you can no longer cast spells equal to your proficiency bonus or above without strain until you finish a short rest or long rest. The strain of attempting to cast a spell of those levels without a rest causes you to take levels of exhaustion and risk spell failure. Make a DC 10+ level of the spell constitution check. On a success the spell cast as normal. On a failure you don’t expend the spell slot. Either outcome you take a a number of levels of exhaustion equal to 1+ 1per spell level above your pb.
1) Obviously shonen anime has those examples, I don't need to ask for them. But there are other games if you want to be an anime character, that's not (printed) D&D's vibe. (You can of course homebrew any amount of shonen anime mechanics into your D&D game that you could dream of, so long as they stay out of the official books.)
2) I'm fine with high-level martials jumping farther than even an olympic athlete in real life. But like I keep saying, jumping the distance of a dimension door or teleport is a bit much.
3) I'm "oddly okay" with magic because it's magic. Spells have an external power source that can be justified and interacted with in-setting, they can be countered or dispelled or suppressed, they follow the design principles like acquisition and categorization that other spells do etc. Jumping doesn't have any of that, and the moment you put all of that into it you've just created spells with a different label.
4) I don't care how Tolkien does magic, that's so far removed from D&D magic it might as well be a different system (because it is.)
Batman’s strongest feat isn’t him using gadgets. The strength and endurance feats from fast and furious have nothing to do with the cars. I like the way you try to focus only on the 80s movies because you know anime definitely has normal humans jumping that far, but you forgot they were making king fu movies in the 80s as well. I can’t give you an exact 400 foot jump but there were plenty of impossible jumps. Also this is fiction so the only limits are the ones you place. Real people can’t shoot fire from their hands. Yet you are oddly okay with that. Also why did you not address that in Tolkien and many other fantasies Magic takes longer to cast. It requires items and components more often and powerful magic usually can’t be used in rapid succession. May that’s the fix. All spells other than cantrips require focus or material components. When you cast a spell equal to your proficiency bonus or above you can no longer cast spells equal to your proficiency bonus or above without strain until you finish a short rest or long rest. The strain of attempting to cast a spell of those levels without a rest causes you to take levels of exhaustion and risk spell failure. Make a DC 10+ level of the spell constitution check. On a success the spell cast as normal. On a failure you don’t expend the spell slot. Either outcome you take a a number of levels of exhaustion equal to 1+ 1per spell level above your pb.
1) Obviously shonen anime has those examples, I don't need to ask for them. But there are other games if you want to be an anime character, that's not (printed) D&D's vibe. (You can of course homebrew any amount of shonen anime mechanics into your D&D game that you could dream of, so long as they stay out of the official books.)
2) I'm fine with high-level martials jumping farther than even an olympic athlete in real life. But like I keep saying, jumping the distance of a dimension door or teleport is a bit much.
3) I'm "oddly okay" with magic because it's magic. Spells have an external power source that can be justified and interacted with in-setting, they can be countered or dispelled or suppressed, they follow the design principles like acquisition and categorization that other spells do etc. Jumping doesn't have any of that, and the moment you put all of that into it you've just created spells with a different label.
4) I don't care how Tolkien does magic, that's so far removed from D&D magic it might as well be a different system (because it is.)
1. I can also talk about how I want to see those changes in DND so that martials aren’t left out of all the fun stuff so that casters can feel more powerful at the table.
2. I’m fine with the jumping or 400 ft or not, but they definitely need improvements I’m wondering why you are so stuck on that single example.
3. I’m oddly okay with people being doing whatever because it’s all fantasy and make believe. None of it real. You are free to draw you imaginary lines in the sand and I am free to push passed them and request more. Balance is far more important in a cooperative game than you imaginary boundaries.
4. If you believe Tolkien is far removed from DND then DND is allowed to continue to evolve into a system that promotes all play styles. No one should come into the game playing a fighter and realize at level 8 they are getting left behind by the Casters in the party. No DM should have to make sure their fighter has a bunch of shiny magic items to keep him up to par.
In short, you can keep saying you’re fine with martials having objectively less Utility, but I will keep Rallying for them to improve by any means necessary and that’s not just giving them spells.
3. I’m oddly okay with people being doing whatever because it’s all fantasy and make believe. None of it real. You are free to draw you imaginary lines in the sand and I am free to push passed them and request more. Balance is far more important in a cooperative game than you imaginary boundaries.
If balance is your chief concern go play 4e, it is perfectly balanced. I don't want a perfectly balanced 5e, because perfect game balance is boring. When everyone can do the same things, no one is special. When everyone can solve every problem then there is no point in having a whole party.
1. I can also talk about how I want to see those changes in DND so that martials aren’t left out of all the fun stuff so that casters can feel more powerful at the table.
2. I’m fine with the jumping or 400 ft or not, but they definitely need improvements I’m wondering why you are so stuck on that single example.
3. I’m oddly okay with people being doing whatever because it’s all fantasy and make believe. None of it real. You are free to draw you imaginary lines in the sand and I am free to push passed them and request more. Balance is far more important in a cooperative game than you imaginary boundaries.
4. If you believe Tolkien is far removed from DND then DND is allowed to continue to evolve into a system that promotes all play styles. No one should come into the game playing a fighter and realize at level 8 they are getting left behind by the Casters in the party. No DM should have to make sure their fighter has a bunch of shiny magic items to keep him up to par.
In short, you can keep saying you’re fine with martials having objectively less Utility, but I will keep Rallying for them to improve by any means necessary and that’s not just giving them spells.
If martials are "left out of all the fun stuff" at your table then your DM is the issue, not the game. And yes, you're free to push past whatever lines you want at your table, I've never denied that.
If balance is your chief concern go play 4e, it is perfectly balanced. I don't want a perfectly balanced 5e, because perfect game balance is boring. When everyone can do the same things, no one is special. When everyone can solve every problem then there is no point in having a whole party.
Seriously, this. 4e is a fine game and it hasn't gone anywhere, all the books are on DTRPG. I don't understand this overriding desire to turn 5e into 4e when 4e still exists?
So your solution to the martial/caster difference issues is to just make martials casters and tell us to pretend they're martials? Really?
No. Those are just easy examples of things of the same power level that could easily be translated to something that is a martial move or a similar caliber. My 400 foot leap is not dimension door though dimension door is a parallel. It is a leap so its not going through walls, it doesn't zap you out of a cave, it is a jump. A big jump might be ki charged, magically charged, super human strength charged but does it really only feel like a spell. Not to me, and I suspect not to most people with some imagination. A maneuver that was on a hit you can use a maneuver dice and if the enemy is below X hit points this effect occurs works in some ways like a power word but its not just a spell people are telling you is martial anymore than a 15 foot shove from a battlemasters pushing attack is the thunderwave spell that people are telling you is martial.
But hey keep it so fighters maneuvers don't scale past level 3 I'm sure the game will be great like that.
If balance is your chief concern go play 4e, it is perfectly balanced. I don't want a perfectly balanced 5e, because perfect game balance is boring. When everyone can do the same things, no one is special. When everyone can solve every problem then there is no point in having a whole party.
Seriously, this. 4e is a fine game and it hasn't gone anywhere, all the books are on DTRPG. I don't understand this overriding desire to turn 5e into 4e when 4e still exists?
No one is trying to turn 5e into 4e. Making the game more balanced is not the same as making the game 100% balanced in all tiers of play. Other people can just as easily say this desire to turn 5e into 3e is weird and I don;t understand it, 3e still exists if they want a totally unbalanced game where martials big benefit is a lot of feats they can play that.
1. I can also talk about how I want to see those changes in DND so that martials aren’t left out of all the fun stuff so that casters can feel more powerful at the table.
2. I’m fine with the jumping or 400 ft or not, but they definitely need improvements I’m wondering why you are so stuck on that single example.
3. I’m oddly okay with people being doing whatever because it’s all fantasy and make believe. None of it real. You are free to draw you imaginary lines in the sand and I am free to push passed them and request more. Balance is far more important in a cooperative game than you imaginary boundaries.
4. If you believe Tolkien is far removed from DND then DND is allowed to continue to evolve into a system that promotes all play styles. No one should come into the game playing a fighter and realize at level 8 they are getting left behind by the Casters in the party. No DM should have to make sure their fighter has a bunch of shiny magic items to keep him up to par.
In short, you can keep saying you’re fine with martials having objectively less Utility, but I will keep Rallying for them to improve by any means necessary and that’s not just giving them spells.
If martials are "left out of all the fun stuff" at your table then your DM is the issue, not the game. And yes, you're free to push past whatever lines you want at your table, I've never denied that.
If balance is your chief concern go play 4e, it is perfectly balanced. I don't want a perfectly balanced 5e, because perfect game balance is boring. When everyone can do the same things, no one is special. When everyone can solve every problem then there is no point in having a whole party.
Seriously, this. 4e is a fine game and it hasn't gone anywhere, all the books are on DTRPG. I don't understand this overriding desire to turn 5e into 4e when 4e still exists?
Y’all just like to argue for the sake of arguing. I never said I wanted 4e. 4e was boing because their method of balance was everyone does the same thing with different names. Also I never said martials get left out of ALL the cool stuff. They clearly have less utility than casters. Which none of you have argue against.Your only arguments have been don’t fix martials because I like realism in a game of make believe were people throw lightning bolts and fly. It’s a strange argument to have, but you are free to have that stance. As of now the I guess spellcasters are the only ones that are special because they literally have a spell for every situation in the game. At high level play there is a spell that augments every skill or makes them completely unnecessary. I’m not arguing that it needs to be nerf. I’m arguing that non casters need to be buffed so they don’t feel like the best option is to just let the spellcaster handle it. A lock needs to be opened usually a someone uses a skill check because it doesn’t expend a resource and the spell that will open it is really loud, but notice the spellcaster has a method to engage the lock. Does this make the expert less special? I don’t think so. So if at higher levels the fighter or Barbarian gets an ability to hit multiple targets, or move a great distance almost instantly it doesn’t take away from the spellcaster. I’m not asking for fighters to have wish. I’m not asking for rogues to skip skill checks. I’m asking for the game to fix a problem that starts around level 6 and just gets worse from there. Spellcasters can do it all better. Part of the reason for the problem is developers designed spells to run out thinking that would balance the game as skills would have to be used because people would save spells or use them up. But very few have the encounter rate WotC originally predicted. Since they aren’t running casters out of spells per day the none casters need buffs so the question becomes which of use should expend a resource to get this job done. Not “there is a chasm with a rickety bridge” Spellcaster options: fly, mending, fabricate, polymorph, dimension door, gate and more. Non caster options roll the dice to cross the bridge safely or roll the dice to look for another way to cross the chasm.
No one is trying to turn 5e into 4e. Making the game more balanced is not the same as making the game 100% balanced in all tiers of play. Other people can just as easily say this desire to turn 5e into 3e is weird and I don;t understand it, 3e still exists if they want a totally unbalanced game where martials big benefit is a lot of feats they can play that.
I'm not after 3e levels of imbalance, with Pun-Pun and CoDzilla and Incantatrix etc. 5e is largely fine as-is, could it be improved sure, but it really doesn't need much. It certainly doesn't need dimension door jumping or sword resurrections etc.
Y’all just like to argue for the sake of arguing. I never said I wanted 4e. 4e was boing because their method of balance was everyone does the same thing with different names. Also I never said martials get left out of ALL the cool stuff. They clearly have less utility than casters. Which none of you have argue against.Your only arguments have been don’t fix martials because I like realism in a game of make believe were people throw lightning bolts and fly. It’s a strange argument to have, but you are free to have that stance. As of now the I guess spellcasters are the only ones that are special because they literally have a spell for every situation in the game. At high level play there is a spell that augments every skill or makes them completely unnecessary. I’m not arguing that it needs to be nerf. I’m arguing that non casters need to be buffed so they don’t feel like the best option is to just let the spellcaster handle it. A lock needs to be opened usually a someone uses a skill check because it doesn’t expend a resource and the spell that will open it is really loud, but notice the spellcaster has a method to engage the lock. Does this make the expert less special? I don’t think so. So if at higher levels the fighter or Barbarian gets an ability to hit multiple targets, or move a great distance almost instantly it doesn’t take away from the spellcaster. I’m not asking for fighters to have wish. I’m not asking for rogues to skip skill checks. I’m asking for the game to fix a problem that starts around level 6 and just gets worse from there. Spellcasters can do it all better. Part of the reason for the problem is developers designed spells to run out thinking that would balance the game as skills would have to be used because people would save spells or use them up. But very few have the encounter rate WotC originally predicted. Since they aren’t running casters out of spells per day the none casters need buffs so the question becomes which of use should expend a resource to get this job done. Not “there is a chasm with a rickety bridge” Spellcaster options: fly, mending, fabricate, polymorph, dimension door, gate and more. Non caster options roll the dice to cross the bridge safely or roll the dice to look for another way to cross the chasm.
You literally did say "so that martials aren’t left out of all the fun stuff" but okay.
I think the main disconnect between us is that I don't expect martials to have the exact same utility as casters. I don't expect martials to be able to raise the dead, teleport long distances or across planes, control minds, bind outsiders, get information from deities etc. There are just some things that should require magic - and specifically, spells - to achieve. And even some of the magical abilities that I could see going from spells to martial maneuvers, like flight and invisibility and shapeshifting, should be self-only by the martial. Training yourself to be able to do these things is different than being able to affect other creatures externally.
I think the main disconnect between us is that I don't expect martials to have the exact same utility as casters.
My core expectation for a good game is that
Players should be engaged with most scenes. That generally means they have something valuable to contribute to that scene.
Players should get relatively even amounts of glory.
In combat, D&D does an okay job with both. Everyone is generally involved; moments of glory are typically dominated by the warriors and offensive spellcasters (though this is tier dependent) but everyone has at least a chance. Outside of combat, though, martial characters rarely get much glory and often have engagement issues; even non-caster experts (who get relatively low combat glory so would be expected to do well here) are prone to being outshone by the spellcasters.
Jumping 400' is mostly about solving the problem of melee vs ranged, not caster vs martial. There's a reason video games are prone to fairly short ranges and giving gap-closing powers to melee.
...How often are you having 400ft. combats? That's 80 squares! I can't think of a single official module with encounter space that large. Like maybe an entire area/dungeon floor might be that big, but not each encounter. 120ft is the max range for a lot of combat spells and it's less than a third of that!
As for martials not getting much glory, I suggest your DM re-evaluate what they allow ability checks to do. 5e is very much set up for that kind of cinematic experience where martials can swing from chandeliers, kick braziers into enemy faces, slide between the ogre's legs etc. The adjudication tools are deceptively simple and can simulate a lot, especially when coupled with things like Improvised Actions/Contests, Improvising Damage, and Conditions, right in core. If your DM never uses those tools then you're going to feel deficient, but that's hardly the books' fault when the info is available to everyone.
...How often are you having 400ft. combats? That's 80 squares! I can't think of a single official module with encounter space that large.
It's rare for mapped combats (and when it does happen, it's usually on a map with more than 5' squares), but a lot of outdoor encounters aren't done on a map.
Okay - if you want your martials to jump 400ft then go for it, call for a DC 28 athletics check or something. They don't have to codify something they'll never build an encounter around.
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And did those sources explain how those people moved that fast and jumped that far? If it wasn't spells then what?
Like when Thor does it, it's because he's an alien god. When Hulk does it it's because he's a mutated monster. There's always an explanation like that, that you can't account for simply via push-ups.
Of course people would question it. You know why they accept it for a Warlock? They literally got bestowed those abilities from a supernatural being. Not from running laps!
Sometimes it’s because they trained to move that fast. They can’t do it all the time because of how much stress it puts on the body, but they can move that fast when really necessary. If you want strong adherence to Tolkien like fantasy source materials then spell casters should need material components a lot more. They also shouldn’t be able to cast powerful spells so quickly. Especially not in succession.
If you can break the laws of physics with magic you can break it with training.
Gutz no magic.
Batman no Magic.
Every strong person in Fast and furious franchise No Magic.
Most 80s action movies no magic
So respectively: anime, normal human + gadgets, normal human + cars, normal human. Got it.
Like which 80s movie or fast and the furious movie had humans jumping 400 ft? Got a clip?
Who cares if it came from magic, its a option, you can always pick the more mundane feeling one and call it training. The power words would be very easy to flavor, a stunning blow, a death blow etc. If you want to feel totally mundane take those. Every level there are plenty of spells which can be described in a way that is non magical. Take those options if that is what you want.
I'm fine with "more mundane feeling options." It's when you just rewrite a bunch of spells as martial maneuvers and call it a day that I start pointing you back to 4e.
So your solution to the martial/caster difference issues is to just make martials casters and tell us to pretend they're martials? Really?
Batman’s strongest feat isn’t him using gadgets. The strength and endurance feats from fast and furious have nothing to do with the cars. I like the way you try to focus only on the 80s movies because you know anime definitely has normal humans jumping that far, but you forgot they were making king fu movies in the 80s as well. I can’t give you an exact 400 foot jump but there were plenty of impossible jumps. Also this is fiction so the only limits are the ones you place. Real people can’t shoot fire from their hands. Yet you are oddly okay with that. Also why did you not address that in Tolkien and many other fantasies Magic takes longer to cast. It requires items and components more often and powerful magic usually can’t be used in rapid succession. May that’s the fix. All spells other than cantrips require focus or material components.
When you cast a spell equal to your proficiency bonus or above you can no longer cast spells equal to your proficiency bonus or above without strain until you finish a short rest or long rest. The strain of attempting to cast a spell of those levels without a rest causes you to take levels of exhaustion and risk spell failure. Make a DC 10+ level of the spell constitution check. On a success the spell cast as normal. On a failure you don’t expend the spell slot. Either outcome you take a a number of levels of exhaustion equal to 1+ 1per spell level above your pb.
Oh yes, nerf spells into the ground, that'll go over well.
Anime does provide examples of the "superhuman through training" trope. It also has a wholly different dynamic than the medieval fantasy D&D seeks to emulate. The entire design philosophy around classes like Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, and to a slightly lesser extent Monk is that by their core class features they could plausibly be regular individuals at the far right of the bell curve until you start crunching some numbers. Fighter and Rogue in particular have a lot of subclasses that don't include any magical features. While in a void going anime is technically a solution to "balance the power scale" between martials and casters, it's not one that fits the D&D design philosophy.
1) Obviously shonen anime has those examples, I don't need to ask for them. But there are other games if you want to be an anime character, that's not (printed) D&D's vibe. (You can of course homebrew any amount of shonen anime mechanics into your D&D game that you could dream of, so long as they stay out of the official books.)
2) I'm fine with high-level martials jumping farther than even an olympic athlete in real life. But like I keep saying, jumping the distance of a dimension door or teleport is a bit much.
3) I'm "oddly okay" with magic because it's magic. Spells have an external power source that can be justified and interacted with in-setting, they can be countered or dispelled or suppressed, they follow the design principles like acquisition and categorization that other spells do etc. Jumping doesn't have any of that, and the moment you put all of that into it you've just created spells with a different label.
4) I don't care how Tolkien does magic, that's so far removed from D&D magic it might as well be a different system (because it is.)
1. I can also talk about how I want to see those changes in DND so that martials aren’t left out of all the fun stuff so that casters can feel more powerful at the table.
2. I’m fine with the jumping or 400 ft or not, but they definitely need improvements I’m wondering why you are so stuck on that single example.
3. I’m oddly okay with people being doing whatever because it’s all fantasy and make believe. None of it real. You are free to draw you imaginary lines in the sand and I am free to push passed them and request more. Balance is far more important in a cooperative game than you imaginary boundaries.
4. If you believe Tolkien is far removed from DND then DND is allowed to continue to evolve into a system that promotes all play styles. No one should come into the game playing a fighter and realize at level 8 they are getting left behind by the Casters in the party. No DM should have to make sure their fighter has a bunch of shiny magic items to keep him up to par.
In short, you can keep saying you’re fine with martials having objectively less Utility, but I will keep Rallying for them to improve by any means necessary and that’s not just giving them spells.
If balance is your chief concern go play 4e, it is perfectly balanced. I don't want a perfectly balanced 5e, because perfect game balance is boring. When everyone can do the same things, no one is special. When everyone can solve every problem then there is no point in having a whole party.
If martials are "left out of all the fun stuff" at your table then your DM is the issue, not the game. And yes, you're free to push past whatever lines you want at your table, I've never denied that.
Seriously, this. 4e is a fine game and it hasn't gone anywhere, all the books are on DTRPG. I don't understand this overriding desire to turn 5e into 4e when 4e still exists?
No. Those are just easy examples of things of the same power level that could easily be translated to something that is a martial move or a similar caliber. My 400 foot leap is not dimension door though dimension door is a parallel. It is a leap so its not going through walls, it doesn't zap you out of a cave, it is a jump. A big jump might be ki charged, magically charged, super human strength charged but does it really only feel like a spell. Not to me, and I suspect not to most people with some imagination. A maneuver that was on a hit you can use a maneuver dice and if the enemy is below X hit points this effect occurs works in some ways like a power word but its not just a spell people are telling you is martial anymore than a 15 foot shove from a battlemasters pushing attack is the thunderwave spell that people are telling you is martial.
But hey keep it so fighters maneuvers don't scale past level 3 I'm sure the game will be great like that.
No one is trying to turn 5e into 4e. Making the game more balanced is not the same as making the game 100% balanced in all tiers of play. Other people can just as easily say this desire to turn 5e into 3e is weird and I don;t understand it, 3e still exists if they want a totally unbalanced game where martials big benefit is a lot of feats they can play that.
Y’all just like to argue for the sake of arguing. I never said I wanted 4e. 4e was boing because their method of balance was everyone does the same thing with different names. Also I never said martials get left out of ALL the cool stuff. They clearly have less utility than casters. Which none of you have argue against.Your only arguments have been don’t fix martials because I like realism in a game of make believe were people throw lightning bolts and fly. It’s a strange argument to have, but you are free to have that stance.
As of now the I guess spellcasters are the only ones that are special because they literally have a spell for every situation in the game. At high level play there is a spell that augments every skill or makes them completely unnecessary. I’m not arguing that it needs to be nerf. I’m arguing that non casters need to be buffed so they don’t feel like the best option is to just let the spellcaster handle it. A lock needs to be opened usually a someone uses a skill check because it doesn’t expend a resource and the spell that will open it is really loud, but notice the spellcaster has a method to engage the lock. Does this make the expert less special? I don’t think so. So if at higher levels the fighter or Barbarian gets an ability to hit multiple targets, or move a great distance almost instantly it doesn’t take away from the spellcaster. I’m not asking for fighters to have wish. I’m not asking for rogues to skip skill checks. I’m asking for the game to fix a problem that starts around level 6 and just gets worse from there. Spellcasters can do it all better. Part of the reason for the problem is developers designed spells to run out thinking that would balance the game as skills would have to be used because people would save spells or use them up. But very few have the encounter rate WotC originally predicted. Since they aren’t running casters out of spells per day the none casters need buffs so the question becomes which of use should expend a resource to get this job done. Not “there is a chasm with a rickety bridge” Spellcaster options: fly, mending, fabricate, polymorph, dimension door, gate and more. Non caster options roll the dice to cross the bridge safely or roll the dice to look for another way to cross the chasm.
I'm not after 3e levels of imbalance, with Pun-Pun and CoDzilla and Incantatrix etc. 5e is largely fine as-is, could it be improved sure, but it really doesn't need much. It certainly doesn't need dimension door jumping or sword resurrections etc.
You literally did say "so that martials aren’t left out of all the fun stuff" but okay.
I think the main disconnect between us is that I don't expect martials to have the exact same utility as casters. I don't expect martials to be able to raise the dead, teleport long distances or across planes, control minds, bind outsiders, get information from deities etc. There are just some things that should require magic - and specifically, spells - to achieve. And even some of the magical abilities that I could see going from spells to martial maneuvers, like flight and invisibility and shapeshifting, should be self-only by the martial. Training yourself to be able to do these things is different than being able to affect other creatures externally.
My core expectation for a good game is that
In combat, D&D does an okay job with both. Everyone is generally involved; moments of glory are typically dominated by the warriors and offensive spellcasters (though this is tier dependent) but everyone has at least a chance. Outside of combat, though, martial characters rarely get much glory and often have engagement issues; even non-caster experts (who get relatively low combat glory so would be expected to do well here) are prone to being outshone by the spellcasters.
Jumping 400' is mostly about solving the problem of melee vs ranged, not caster vs martial. There's a reason video games are prone to fairly short ranges and giving gap-closing powers to melee.
...How often are you having 400ft. combats? That's 80 squares! I can't think of a single official module with encounter space that large. Like maybe an entire area/dungeon floor might be that big, but not each encounter. 120ft is the max range for a lot of combat spells and it's less than a third of that!
As for martials not getting much glory, I suggest your DM re-evaluate what they allow ability checks to do. 5e is very much set up for that kind of cinematic experience where martials can swing from chandeliers, kick braziers into enemy faces, slide between the ogre's legs etc. The adjudication tools are deceptively simple and can simulate a lot, especially when coupled with things like Improvised Actions/Contests, Improvising Damage, and Conditions, right in core. If your DM never uses those tools then you're going to feel deficient, but that's hardly the books' fault when the info is available to everyone.
It's rare for mapped combats (and when it does happen, it's usually on a map with more than 5' squares), but a lot of outdoor encounters aren't done on a map.
Okay - if you want your martials to jump 400ft then go for it, call for a DC 28 athletics check or something. They don't have to codify something they'll never build an encounter around.