Sorry, but I think you folks who think even at level 9 that a Moon Druid's Wild Shape is "useless" are crazy.
With the caveat that the DM has the ultimate say in what beasts are available to emulate, we'll just choose a land-based animal: the giant snapping turtle. AC 17 (which ain't GREAT but it's not terrible, either) 75 hit points, and the ability to inflict 28 hit points of damage per attack (more with a crit). This means the druid has, effectively, 150 extra hit points every day; the equivalent of two more party members, essentially.
And the environment allows, the moon druid can just lumber around throwing lightning bolts from a call lightning spell. Sure, that's concentration, so there's a good chance the spell could be lost if the turtle takes damage. Regardless: even with CR 3 critters, this is a HUGE buff that is, IMNSHO, overpowered.
(If the druid is in the water, they could get even more hit points by assuming the form of a killer whale: 180 hit points from two uses of Wild Shape.)
Sorry, but I think you folks who think even at level 9 that a Moon Druid's Wild Shape is "useless" are crazy.
With the caveat that the DM has the ultimate say in what beasts are available to emulate, we'll just choose a land-based animal: the giant snapping turtle. AC 17 (which ain't GREAT but it's not terrible, either) 75 hit points, and the ability to inflict 28 hit points of damage per attack (more with a crit). This means the druid has, effectively, 150 extra hit points every day; the equivalent of two more party members, essentially.
And the environment allows, the moon druid can just lumber around throwing lightning bolts from a call lightning spell. Sure, that's concentration, so there's a good chance the spell could be lost if the turtle takes damage. Regardless: even with CR 3 critters, this is a HUGE buff that is, IMNSHO, overpowered.
(If the druid is in the water, they could get even more hit points by assuming the form of a killer whale: 180 hit points from two uses of Wild Shape.)
Oh so you think giant snapping turtle is good?
AC 17 whereas most tanks have AC 20-21, means you're taking 50% more damage than other frontliners. 1 attack per round with a +6 to hit (giving you a 50% chance to hit) with average damage of 18 on a hit = average DPR of 9. A wizard at the same level casting firebolt (with 0 bonuses from items, feats, or features) has a 65% chance to hit and average damage of 11 on a hit = 7.15, and a generic sword-and-board fighter with a regular longsword is doing 12.35 DPR. Not to mention that if you get knocked prone as a giant snapping turtle you're a sitting duck. There are no CR 3 monsters in the Monster Manual that are better than either a Polar Bear or a Giant Constrictor Snake. Hit points are utterly pointless if your DPR is trash and you can't cast spells - you'll just end up sitting there watching your party get killed.
Hit points are absolutely not useless if you're absorbing the damage so that other party members don't.
The bear and snake definitely have better attack abilities. But being able to absorb 150 hit points before even touching the druid's "real" hit points is nothing to sneeze at.
Hit points are absolutely not useless if you're absorbing the damage so that other party members don't.
The bear and snake definitely have better attack abilities. But being able to absorb 150 hit points before even touching the druid's "real" hit points is nothing to sneeze at.
But why would enemies attack you? Half the time you aren't even hitting them, and when you do hit them you are doing pathetic amounts of damage. You are not a significant threat to the enemies, so why would they attack you instead of the fighter that's dealing 30 DPR with Sharpshooter, or the wizard that just cast Hypnotic Pattern, or the cleric that is healing everyone back up?
Having tons of hitpoints or huge AC does not make you a good tank when you are fighting enemies controlled by a human being who isn't an idiot. You know how you defeat a Druid WSed into a giant snapping turtle? You KO one of the other party member so that they have to drop their WS in order to heal them and prevent them from dying.
You're assuming the druid takes on the wild shape when not in melee range. Obviously, every combat is unique but the druid can try and position themselves so that when sh*t goes down, they can use their normal movement to get within melee range of an opponent and use Wild Shape to turn into the turtle. (Or use movement + dash if the enemy is farther away.) The enemy now has to risk an opportunity attack from at least one opponent to get away. And the turtle is large, which means using a good bit of movement to get around it....which means it can, likely, use its next turn to catch up to the fleeing enemy and maybe even flank them.
And your tactics assume there's no one else in the party capable of healing a downed party member. If you also have a 9th level cleric (and my group of players does), then the druid is definitely NOT the primary healer in the group.
Again an AoO that has a 50% chance of missing and really low damage Or they can just kick you over onto your back and go to town on your allies. If the druid can get into melee in 1 movement then the enemy can reach another member of the party using only 1 movement. And that's assuming the enemy is a melee fighter that can't fly (which is less and less common at level 9). If you also have a 9th level cleric, that cleric would do a lot more damage using Spirit Guardians that you are doing as a giant turtle. If the cleric is the one healing downed players the enemies should focus fire on them, and thus you'll have to revert to heal the cleric to then heal the rest of the party.
Honestly... even Giant Scorpion is a better WS than giant snapping turtle, cause at least you can grapple enemies to force them to fight you and it has DPR that pretty much matches a generic sword and board fighter. It's marginally better than a polar bear even, assuming your fighting low AC enemies that aren't immune to poison. But giant constrictor snake is still better - restraining an enemy while having low AC is the ultimate taunt.
Sorry, but I think you folks who think even at level 9 that a Moon Druid's Wild Shape is "useless" are crazy.
It's not useless, it's emergency hit points. It's just that the enemy can safely ignore you while they kill the rest of your party, and then turn around to whomp you.
Hate this, as a Druid and be of the things I love is the versatility. I can be a rat to sneak, or a tiger, or anything and the rules of each is different. Now, whatever I am, it’s the same. Also, losing that bonus hit pool means I am less likely to wildshape. No this is something I will be telling wizards not to go forward with, destroys DnD.
I think a simple change, if they wanted to nerf the hit point sink idea, is to keep Wildshape as is, but, just don’t use the creatures hit points. So no turning into a 100 hit point sink when you are down to 20 because your wild shape will still have 20 hp.
Hit points are absolutely not useless if you're absorbing the damage so that other party members don't.
The bear and snake definitely have better attack abilities. But being able to absorb 150 hit points before even touching the druid's "real" hit points is nothing to sneeze at.
As a DM I don’t have issues here, mainly because by this level intelligent enemies understand the threat and so ignore the turtle to focus on the rogue or cleric. But I agree something needs to be done about the HP sink generally for other tables.
I like the idea of wild shape not using the creatures hit points and instead using your own, this works 2 ways, your rat shape for scouting is far more durable, while your fighting shapes are chosen for skills not durability.
DRUID IS CONSTITUTION BUILD NOW TO NOT LOSE YOUR CONCENTRATION.
so in wildshape, You retain your personality, memories, ability to speak, and Wild Shape. You lose access to all your other features, such as the ability to cast spells(you can continue to concentrate on one)
so your Incentivized to not be a martial YOU ARE A PRIEST GROUP ill explain below
your a concentration caster now, you use wildshape alternating forms, to cast concentration spells starting at lv13. You can cast wilshape hold concentration return to human to cast non concentration spell return to wildshape KEEP DISTANCE to hold concentration or if you started wildshape turn human cast concentration spell return to wildshape and hold concentration. YOU TURN NATURE VS YOUR ENEMIES AND HEAL ALLIES 7 Regenerate 7 Reverse Gravity 8 Animal Shapes 8 Control Weather 8 Earthquake 8 Tsunami 9 Shapechange And you can cast abjuration spell in wildshape ontop that dont take your concentration away like mass healing word or mass cure wounds.
TINY CRITTER ALLOWS YOU TO GET COVER BEHIND ALLY OR HIDE WITH DEX STEALTH.
The purpose of a druid is no longer to tank, the role of the druid has been specialized to field control and AOE damage.
I think a simple change, if they wanted to nerf the hit point sink idea, is to keep Wildshape as is, but, just don’t use the creatures hit points. So no turning into a 100 hit point sink when you are down to 20 because your wild shape will still have 20 hp.
Personally, I'd prefer the THP idea. You get so many THP when you WS, which scale with your level (directly or indirectly). It means that you can't just WS into a HP sponge, but it does help. Or if you don't have THP, then you get a boost to your attacks or something. One of the problems people mention with current Wildshape is that the only thing going for it later on is the HP sponge concept. We need a reason to combat WS.
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With the caveat that the DM has the ultimate say in what beasts are available to emulate, we'll just choose a land-based animal: the giant snapping turtle. AC 17 (which ain't GREAT but it's not terrible, either) 75 hit points, and the ability to inflict 28 hit points of damage per attack (more with a crit). This means the druid has, effectively, 150 extra hit points every day; the equivalent of two more party members, essentially.
You really can't bring up the giant snapping turtle without a few important caveats. This is not a core book creature, it came from Tomb of Annihilation (2017). Lets ignore DM's saying no for a minute, along with having a DM that won't just ignore the turtle, and the player enjoys just sitting there being hit with crappy attack options.
That still means a prospective level 9 moon druid would need to have access to the book (at least legally, which means money spent), do the study to find out the turtle exists and where to find it(not a given, and assuming the book's available to be found). And you're out of luck if this theoretical Moon Druid character had been played before the book even came out - you should never have had a feature that relied on waiting 3 years to have something make use of something. That's a sign of bad design.
I think a simple change, if they wanted to nerf the hit point sink idea, is to keep Wildshape as is, but, just don’t use the creatures hit points. So no turning into a 100 hit point sink when you are down to 20 because your wild shape will still have 20 hp.
The thing is, Moon Druids NEED that massive HP pool because wildshape forms have absolute garbage AC. You're looking at 11-14 on average, with the most defensive forms maxing at 17. Using wildshape without getting the HP boost just gets the druid instantly murdered.
This is true for the new wildshape too which is just bizarre. They took away the druid's health sponge but maxed our wildshape AC at 15. Anyone who tries to approach melee with stats like that at higher levels is going to be torn to shreds. This is even worse if you're fighting in your flying form as your AC caps out at 13.
It's like they forgot why they gave druids that massive HP pool in the first place.
I think a simple change, if they wanted to nerf the hit point sink idea, is to keep Wildshape as is, but, just don’t use the creatures hit points. So no turning into a 100 hit point sink when you are down to 20 because your wild shape will still have 20 hp.
The thing is, Moon Druids NEED that massive HP pool because wildshape forms have absolute garbage AC. You're looking at 11-14 on average, with the most defensive forms maxing at 17. Using wildshape without getting the HP boost just gets the druid instantly murdered.
This is true for the new wildshape too which is just bizarre. They took away the druid's health sponge but maxed our wildshape AC at 15. Anyone who tries to approach melee with stats like that at higher levels is going to be torn to shreds. This is even worse if you're fighting in your flying form as your AC caps out at 13.
It's like they forgot why they gave druids that massive HP pool in the first place.
Hmm yes I see your point, I do think having more of a standard number of hit points defined for wild shape in some way (based on Druid level and wisdom bonus maybe) is better. Druid regains all those hitpoints on a short rest (or at higher levels with some other ability). Although as others have pointed out a high HP creature usually has a low AC.
I'd be fully in favor of keeping WS as-is (that is, 2014 PHB) minus the HP buff. If the only change OneD&D made to WS was that the druid keeps their own HP/HD, I'd be very happy.
THP is better than what we have now, but I'm still not a fan of it.
(And just to make myself really unpopular, I don't think polymorph should act as a hit point buff, either. WRT HP/HD, I think it should work the same way the playtest WS works.)
I'd be fully in favor of keeping WS as-is (that is, 2014 PHB) minus the HP buff. If the only change OneD&D made to WS was that the druid keeps their own HP/HD, I'd be very happy.
THP is better than what we have now, but I'm still not a fan of it.
(And just to make myself really unpopular, I don't think polymorph should act as a hit point buff, either. WRT HP/HD, I think it should work the same way the playtest WS works.)
Polymorph without the HP pool and reversion rules would be broken offensively. Need to fight that ancient dragon? No problem, just turn them into a snail then beat the snail down to 0 HP.
Your dungeon was level 4 you said? That's in the middle of the druid's ultimate power spike that starts at 2. I admitted they had too much power in those early levels. But that's a problem with the power curve they chose and it isn't that hard to correct.
You also mention it was multi-classed. Might I guess Barbarian/Druid? Because that build is a deeply optimized tanking build.
We were level 3, but the dungeon was four floors. Sorry for the confusion.
Yes, this was a Druid/Barbarian. However, this build just goes to show how easily exploited and powerful all the extra hit points are. Honestly though, all Druids have a lot of effective HP. This build is just one of the crazy powerful ways this feature can be used, and it is already very important to Druid even when they aren't optimized to make use of it.
Either way I don't disagree that the original wildshape's power curve didn't need adjusting. I was actually hoping OneDnD would do just that. But it didn't need to be completely tossed in the garbage and replaced with a whole new mechanic, in my opinion.
Even though we disagree on some of the details, I'm glad we can ultimately agree on the same conclusion. I hope that the next playtest will do a better job at making Wild Shape still worthwhile, while making sure that it isn't as powerful in order to add more different aspects to the class.
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There is an interesting possible exploit to mitigate the low AC problem with the new Wildshape. You can make the form whatever you want, so you could make it a more or less humanoid form, no? A medium sized monkey/ape at the very least. Then you could keep your armor to keep most of your AC (actually it might increase if your Wisdom mod is 3 or more higher than your Dexterity mod)
This is assuming that you can still follow the rule choosing which formula for AC to use according to whatever the highest among those you have available. The beast form gives you a new option of AC = 10 + Wis which you are ignoring for the more standard (let's assume studded leather armor) AC = 12 + Dex where your Dex is conveniently the same as your wisdom modifier while in the new form
While you are no longer proficient with armor, that only gives disadvantage on d20 tests that involves Strength or Dexterity (The Bestial Strike specifically calls out wisdom as the damage and spell attack modifier as the attack mod so it's not affected), and you can’t cast spells (Which I suppose does effect the moon druid). Sadly, a shield requires the proficiency to gain the ac benefit, so you do still lose that.
The Druid base class desperately needs new features that support alternative play-styles other than WS - bards and clerics both get lots of other class features and play the same role as casters as the Druid does, so I don't know why Druid has been given such a short-end-of-the-stick in terms of class features. Those would give the caster-focused subclasses something to build on so they are more viable. Combat Wildshapes needs a total overhaul, but regular WS needs to still function as a utility feature for casting-focused druids.
Sorry to double post, but you've shared a lot of interesting thoughts and I wanted to respond.
For one, I don't disagree that most Druids aren't too powerful. There is a reason why data shows that Circle of the Moon is more played than Circle of Land, despite the fact that the latter is free and the former isn't. Circle of the Land isn't good at all, and I DMed for a Druid who was that subclass and they didn't really feel very strong at all.
Honestly, I agree that a lot of how powerful Druid is depends on the same class, and that the base class is especially weak when people don't use Wild Shape as their main feature. That being said, Wild Shape might need to be weakened a bit in order to make more room for powerful features and abilities that allow you to play a strong Druid who doesn't solely rely on that feature.
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Sorry, but I think you folks who think even at level 9 that a Moon Druid's Wild Shape is "useless" are crazy.
With the caveat that the DM has the ultimate say in what beasts are available to emulate, we'll just choose a land-based animal: the giant snapping turtle. AC 17 (which ain't GREAT but it's not terrible, either) 75 hit points, and the ability to inflict 28 hit points of damage per attack (more with a crit). This means the druid has, effectively, 150 extra hit points every day; the equivalent of two more party members, essentially.
And the environment allows, the moon druid can just lumber around throwing lightning bolts from a call lightning spell. Sure, that's concentration, so there's a good chance the spell could be lost if the turtle takes damage. Regardless: even with CR 3 critters, this is a HUGE buff that is, IMNSHO, overpowered.
(If the druid is in the water, they could get even more hit points by assuming the form of a killer whale: 180 hit points from two uses of Wild Shape.)
Oh so you think giant snapping turtle is good?
AC 17 whereas most tanks have AC 20-21, means you're taking 50% more damage than other frontliners.
1 attack per round with a +6 to hit (giving you a 50% chance to hit) with average damage of 18 on a hit = average DPR of 9. A wizard at the same level casting firebolt (with 0 bonuses from items, feats, or features) has a 65% chance to hit and average damage of 11 on a hit = 7.15, and a generic sword-and-board fighter with a regular longsword is doing 12.35 DPR. Not to mention that if you get knocked prone as a giant snapping turtle you're a sitting duck. There are no CR 3 monsters in the Monster Manual that are better than either a Polar Bear or a Giant Constrictor Snake. Hit points are utterly pointless if your DPR is trash and you can't cast spells - you'll just end up sitting there watching your party get killed.
Hit points are absolutely not useless if you're absorbing the damage so that other party members don't.
The bear and snake definitely have better attack abilities. But being able to absorb 150 hit points before even touching the druid's "real" hit points is nothing to sneeze at.
But why would enemies attack you? Half the time you aren't even hitting them, and when you do hit them you are doing pathetic amounts of damage. You are not a significant threat to the enemies, so why would they attack you instead of the fighter that's dealing 30 DPR with Sharpshooter, or the wizard that just cast Hypnotic Pattern, or the cleric that is healing everyone back up?
Having tons of hitpoints or huge AC does not make you a good tank when you are fighting enemies controlled by a human being who isn't an idiot. You know how you defeat a Druid WSed into a giant snapping turtle? You KO one of the other party member so that they have to drop their WS in order to heal them and prevent them from dying.
You're assuming the druid takes on the wild shape when not in melee range. Obviously, every combat is unique but the druid can try and position themselves so that when sh*t goes down, they can use their normal movement to get within melee range of an opponent and use Wild Shape to turn into the turtle. (Or use movement + dash if the enemy is farther away.) The enemy now has to risk an opportunity attack from at least one opponent to get away. And the turtle is large, which means using a good bit of movement to get around it....which means it can, likely, use its next turn to catch up to the fleeing enemy and maybe even flank them.
And your tactics assume there's no one else in the party capable of healing a downed party member. If you also have a 9th level cleric (and my group of players does), then the druid is definitely NOT the primary healer in the group.
Again an AoO that has a 50% chance of missing and really low damage Or they can just kick you over onto your back and go to town on your allies. If the druid can get into melee in 1 movement then the enemy can reach another member of the party using only 1 movement. And that's assuming the enemy is a melee fighter that can't fly (which is less and less common at level 9). If you also have a 9th level cleric, that cleric would do a lot more damage using Spirit Guardians that you are doing as a giant turtle. If the cleric is the one healing downed players the enemies should focus fire on them, and thus you'll have to revert to heal the cleric to then heal the rest of the party.
Honestly... even Giant Scorpion is a better WS than giant snapping turtle, cause at least you can grapple enemies to force them to fight you and it has DPR that pretty much matches a generic sword and board fighter. It's marginally better than a polar bear even, assuming your fighting low AC enemies that aren't immune to poison. But giant constrictor snake is still better - restraining an enemy while having low AC is the ultimate taunt.
It's not useless, it's emergency hit points. It's just that the enemy can safely ignore you while they kill the rest of your party, and then turn around to whomp you.
Hate this, as a Druid and be of the things I love is the versatility. I can be a rat to sneak, or a tiger, or anything and the rules of each is different. Now, whatever I am, it’s the same. Also, losing that bonus hit pool means I am less likely to wildshape. No this is something I will be telling wizards not to go forward with, destroys DnD.
I think a simple change, if they wanted to nerf the hit point sink idea, is to keep Wildshape as is, but, just don’t use the creatures hit points. So no turning into a 100 hit point sink when you are down to 20 because your wild shape will still have 20 hp.
As a DM I don’t have issues here, mainly because by this level intelligent enemies understand the threat and so ignore the turtle to focus on the rogue or cleric. But I agree something needs to be done about the HP sink generally for other tables.
I like the idea of wild shape not using the creatures hit points and instead using your own, this works 2 ways, your rat shape for scouting is far more durable, while your fighting shapes are chosen for skills not durability.
But how many tables reach those levels?
Personally, I'd prefer the THP idea. You get so many THP when you WS, which scale with your level (directly or indirectly). It means that you can't just WS into a HP sponge, but it does help. Or if you don't have THP, then you get a boost to your attacks or something. One of the problems people mention with current Wildshape is that the only thing going for it later on is the HP sponge concept. We need a reason to combat WS.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You really can't bring up the giant snapping turtle without a few important caveats. This is not a core book creature, it came from Tomb of Annihilation (2017). Lets ignore DM's saying no for a minute, along with having a DM that won't just ignore the turtle, and the player enjoys just sitting there being hit with crappy attack options.
That still means a prospective level 9 moon druid would need to have access to the book (at least legally, which means money spent), do the study to find out the turtle exists and where to find it(not a given, and assuming the book's available to be found). And you're out of luck if this theoretical Moon Druid character had been played before the book even came out - you should never have had a feature that relied on waiting 3 years to have something make use of something. That's a sign of bad design.
The thing is, Moon Druids NEED that massive HP pool because wildshape forms have absolute garbage AC. You're looking at 11-14 on average, with the most defensive forms maxing at 17. Using wildshape without getting the HP boost just gets the druid instantly murdered.
This is true for the new wildshape too which is just bizarre. They took away the druid's health sponge but maxed our wildshape AC at 15. Anyone who tries to approach melee with stats like that at higher levels is going to be torn to shreds. This is even worse if you're fighting in your flying form as your AC caps out at 13.
It's like they forgot why they gave druids that massive HP pool in the first place.
Hmm yes I see your point, I do think having more of a standard number of hit points defined for wild shape in some way (based on Druid level and wisdom bonus maybe) is better. Druid regains all those hitpoints on a short rest (or at higher levels with some other ability). Although as others have pointed out a high HP creature usually has a low AC.
I'd be fully in favor of keeping WS as-is (that is, 2014 PHB) minus the HP buff. If the only change OneD&D made to WS was that the druid keeps their own HP/HD, I'd be very happy.
THP is better than what we have now, but I'm still not a fan of it.
(And just to make myself really unpopular, I don't think polymorph should act as a hit point buff, either. WRT HP/HD, I think it should work the same way the playtest WS works.)
Polymorph without the HP pool and reversion rules would be broken offensively. Need to fight that ancient dragon? No problem, just turn them into a snail then beat the snail down to 0 HP.
We were level 3, but the dungeon was four floors. Sorry for the confusion.
Yes, this was a Druid/Barbarian. However, this build just goes to show how easily exploited and powerful all the extra hit points are. Honestly though, all Druids have a lot of effective HP. This build is just one of the crazy powerful ways this feature can be used, and it is already very important to Druid even when they aren't optimized to make use of it.
Even though we disagree on some of the details, I'm glad we can ultimately agree on the same conclusion. I hope that the next playtest will do a better job at making Wild Shape still worthwhile, while making sure that it isn't as powerful in order to add more different aspects to the class.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
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HERE.There is an interesting possible exploit to mitigate the low AC problem with the new Wildshape. You can make the form whatever you want, so you could make it a more or less humanoid form, no? A medium sized monkey/ape at the very least. Then you could keep your armor to keep most of your AC (actually it might increase if your Wisdom mod is 3 or more higher than your Dexterity mod)
This is assuming that you can still follow the rule choosing which formula for AC to use according to whatever the highest among those you have available. The beast form gives you a new option of AC = 10 + Wis which you are ignoring for the more standard (let's assume studded leather armor) AC = 12 + Dex where your Dex is conveniently the same as your wisdom modifier while in the new form
While you are no longer proficient with armor, that only gives disadvantage on d20 tests that involves Strength or Dexterity (The Bestial Strike specifically calls out wisdom as the damage and spell attack modifier as the attack mod so it's not affected), and you can’t cast spells (Which I suppose does effect the moon druid). Sadly, a shield requires the proficiency to gain the ac benefit, so you do still lose that.
Sorry to double post, but you've shared a lot of interesting thoughts and I wanted to respond.
For one, I don't disagree that most Druids aren't too powerful. There is a reason why data shows that Circle of the Moon is more played than Circle of Land, despite the fact that the latter is free and the former isn't. Circle of the Land isn't good at all, and I DMed for a Druid who was that subclass and they didn't really feel very strong at all.
Honestly, I agree that a lot of how powerful Druid is depends on the same class, and that the base class is especially weak when people don't use Wild Shape as their main feature. That being said, Wild Shape might need to be weakened a bit in order to make more room for powerful features and abilities that allow you to play a strong Druid who doesn't solely rely on that feature.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
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Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.