Probably because there will always be a least popular class, but that doesn't mean no one plays it or enjoys it. 75% of the games I've played in had a druid in the party and the people playing it really enjoyed it. There is a lot of good in 5e druid, but it's not perfect (no class is). TBH I don't think anything WotC does will make druid significantly more popular becausr it's fundamental fantasy - back to nature, tree hugger - is not a popular one in the current culture. Indeed, I've seen many games where the classic druid fantasy is treated as the villain.
Personally, I strongly suspect that its less that the druid's class fantasy is unpopular and more that the current iteration of the druid just doesn't successfully fulfill the desired class fantasy that many people want.
In the video, for instance, Crawford noted that many people that wanted to play a Moon Druid were disappointed that they couldn't simply keep a single animal type, and were effectively forced to bounce between things like bears, giant snakes, mammoths, etc. depending on level and CR. Back-to-nature shaman types are abound in fantasy stories (which would be a druid under the 5e paradigm), but all of them being innately shapeshifters? That's less common.
I don't particularly care whether Druid remains back of the pack or not. Even with this simplification they are probably still going to be the most complex class in core and that's fine. What I care about is that the MM should stay DM-facing and that combat wild shape should be able to scale decently well past level 6.
Is anyone else frustrated by the fact that with the Primal spell list, druids would lose access to many spells including Charm Person, Blight, Geas, and Plane Shift? That's the biggest problem I have with this new version, but the fact that there's no temp HP in wild shape also sucks. They need to have a way to gain temporary HP during wild shape and keep the class spell lists as an option.
I know this will be unpopular (and thus likely won't survive the feedback), but if they changed nothing else, I really like that the removed the HP buff from Wild Shape. That, if nothing else, was IMNSHO an overpowered and easily abused buff that wasn't even close to what other classes could do to increase hit points. A 6th level Circle of the Moon druid effectively has between 80 and 100 extra hit points (depending the beast chosen/allowed) if they use Wild Shape twice in a combat.
I'm in favor of any change that shifts the druid away from bestial tank to full caster.
I know this will be unpopular (and thus likely won't survive the feedback), but if they changed nothing else, I really like that the removed the HP buff from Wild Shape. That, if nothing else, was IMNSHO an overpowered and easily abused buff that wasn't even close to what other classes could do to increase hit points.
I'm in favor of any change that shifts the druid away from bestial tank to full caster.
I agree and I prefer caster druids also. But what about all the spells that are lost in the Primal spell list? Everyone is talking about wild shape, nobody is talking about the lost spells. If druids are limited to the new Primal list then they can no longer cast charm person, blight, geas, plane shift and many other spells they currently have.
I don't particularly care whether Druid remains back of the pack or not. Even with this simplification they are probably still going to be the most complex class in core and that's fine. What I care about is that the MM should stay DM-facing and that combat wild shape should be able to scale decently well past level 6.
I know this will be unpopular (and thus likely won't survive the feedback), but if they changed nothing else, I really like that the removed the HP buff from Wild Shape. That, if nothing else, was IMNSHO an overpowered and easily abused buff that wasn't even close to what other classes could do to increase hit points.
I'm in favor of any change that shifts the druid away from bestial tank to full caster.`
That was only for the Moon Druid though, so that they could actually function as a front-liner with an AC 11. All other druids the HP you got from WS was ~13 hp increasing to 30 hp at level 8. Without that HP buff moon druids would be dead if they tried to use their WS in combat. Sure the buff was unbalanced at level 2 (but then everything about moon druid was unbalanced at level 2), but by level 6 the hp buff was usually just enough to get me through a combat in WS with the moon druid I played.
I know this will be unpopular (and thus likely won't survive the feedback), but if they changed nothing else, I really like that the removed the HP buff from Wild Shape.
I sort of like the removal of the HP buff, but I also wish Druids got a few temporary hit points when they transformed. Also, Wild Shape wasn't actually that broken in 5e (at least in my experiences). If the developers want to remove the mechanic to open up for other conceptual themes for the class, then they need to add something else in to replace it.
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I know this will be unpopular (and thus likely won't survive the feedback), but if they changed nothing else, I really like that the removed the HP buff from Wild Shape. That, if nothing else, was IMNSHO an overpowered and easily abused buff that wasn't even close to what other classes could do to increase hit points.
I'm in favor of any change that shifts the druid away from bestial tank to full caster.
I agree and I prefer caster druids also. But what about all the spells that are lost in the Primal spell list? Everyone is talking about wild shape, nobody is talking about the lost spells. If druids are limited to the new Primal list then they can no longer cast charm person, blight, geas, plane shift and many other spells they currently have.
That's actually a good point, I just noticed that they took away all of the good 5th level spells... no transmute rock, no maelstrom, no Wrath of Nature... they've turned you into just being a healer... No Heroes Feast!!! No Druid Grove, No Wind Walk!! No whirlwind or plane shift... No Hold Person! - they've taken away all of the Enchantment spells???
I know this will be unpopular (and thus likely won't survive the feedback), but if they changed nothing else, I really like that the removed the HP buff from Wild Shape. That, if nothing else, was IMNSHO an overpowered and easily abused buff that wasn't even close to what other classes could do to increase hit points.
I'm in favor of any change that shifts the druid away from bestial tank to full caster.
I agree and I prefer caster druids also. But what about all the spells that are lost in the Primal spell list? Everyone is talking about wild shape, nobody is talking about the lost spells. If druids are limited to the new Primal list then they can no longer cast charm person, blight, geas, plane shift and many other spells they currently have.
That's actually a good point, I just noticed that they took away all of the good 5th level spells... no transmute rock, no maelstrom, no Wrath of Nature... they've turned you into just being a healer... No Heroes Feast!!! No Druid Grove, No Wind Walk!! No whirlwind or plane shift... No Hold Person! - they've taken away all of the Enchantment spells???
Some of those spells aren't in the PHB so we don't know they're gone yet. They may come back with the equivalent setting specific books for 6e.
Overall the druid gains access to 18 spells and loses access to 13 spells for a net gain of 5 compared to the PHB.
I really don't get why people think that. The video itself enumerates several reasons why the old druid was, in fact, NOT fine. Say what you will about the new one, but the old wildshape was NOT fine.
I say it was fine because I've played druid numerous times and never once had a major problem with it. Searching the Monster Manual for wildshape options isn't any harder than looking through your spell selection, and once you have a few go-to forms it's very easy to play. What some of you consider a problem I consider part of the fun of the class.
I'll fully acknowledge Moon Druid had scaling issues, but that wouldn't be too hard to correct. Not getting the sub-class until level 3 already resolves the level 2 massive power spike, and restricting multi-attack until level 5 already prevents druids from out-damaging martials in the super early game.
Removing all the utility of the different animal abilities and removing the bonus HP that allowed the wildshape form to survive in melee goes waaaaay too far to the point of making the entire feature useless.
I'll fully acknowledge Moon Druid had scaling issues, but that wouldn't be too hard to correct.
There's two major balance issues with Moon Druids.
One of them is that CR 1 is just way too high at level 2, particularly with two uses, but it actually scales pretty badly at higher levels, by late tier 2 I found that wild shape was more "emergency hp sponge" than something I actually did to fight. That's actually relatively easy to resolve.
The other is that, as monsters keep being published, you're guaranteed that some sourcebook will produce some poorly thought out creature. There's no real way around that other than hard limiting the list of available creatures.
I don't particularly care whether Druid remains back of the pack or not. Even with this simplification they are probably still going to be the most complex class in core and that's fine. What I care about is that the MM should stay DM-facing and that combat wild shape should be able to scale decently well past level 6.
Is "useless at all levels" decent scaling?
At level 9, I'd much rather have (1d8+5/1d8+5/1d4+5) with +9 to hit, than (1d8+2/1d8+2/1d10+2) with +4 to hit. And the latter is one of the better options.
I'm not saying the proposed moon druid is perfect, but it's definitely an improvement.
I say it was fine because I've played druid numerous times and never once had a major problem with it. Searching the Monster Manual for wildshape options isn't any harder than looking through your spell selection, and once you have a few go-to forms it's very easy to play. What some of you consider a problem I consider part of the fun of the class.
Not a Druid player, but I can tell you as a Dungeon Master that Druids (and Moon Druids in particular) can often be a disaster to prepare encounters for. Wild Shape may have worked alright in your games when you where a player, but I daresay that not everyone has similar experiences with the class.
I was once playing in an adventure with a super min-maxed Druid tank, and they effectively tanked all of the 4 level dungeon except for the final encounter. I made a very optimized build that's sole purpose was to have a super high armor class and a lot of hit points, but the multiclassed Druid - who focused mainly on damage - was still able to be better than me at surviving.
So yeah, I pretty much agree with everything Pantagruel is saying on this, which is quite unusual but neat I guess. 5e's Wild Shape is not good and just because you didn't notice a problem doesn't mean one doesn't exist. This playtest did not to a good job of fixing this issue at all, but the feature does have some issues that should probably be fixed in order to allow for more other cool abilities and concepts for the class.
Removing all the utility of the different animal abilities and removing the bonus HP that allowed the wildshape form to survive in melee goes waaaaay too far to the point of making the entire feature useless.
The utility, yes. However, addressing the problem of Druid's with a boatload of hit points is not bad, and it allows for more of the other aspects of the Druid to be explored. Having the Druid and the Beast use the same hit point pool with some temporary hit points is a solid idea, and it does not make the feature useless whatsoever.
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There's two major balance issues with Moon Druids.
One of them is that CR 1 is just way too high at level 2, particularly with two uses, but it actually scales pretty badly at higher levels, by late tier 2 I found that wild shape was more "emergency hp sponge" than something I actually did to fight. That's actually relatively easy to resolve.
The other is that, as monsters keep being published, you're guaranteed that some sourcebook will produce some poorly thought out creature. There's no real way around that other than hard limiting the list of available creatures.
The second problem can be resolved with a bit of DM fiat. It's no different than if Wizards published a book with some overpowered class features or when players find out an unfairly powerful multi-class combo Wizards clearly didn't think of.
Plus druids are hard limited in their list of available creatures. It's done by CR. If Wizards publishes a CR4 monster with stats more appropriate for a CR9 creature then that isn't just a druid wildshape problem, it's a design mistake on their part that they should eratta anyway.
At level 9, I'd much rather have (1d8+5/1d8+5/1d4+5) with +9 to hit, than (1d8+2/1d8+2/1d10+2) with +4 to hit. And the latter is one of the better options.
I'd rather be a 9th level spellcaster than either of those options. Combat Wild Shape at level 9 in 5e is 'emergency hit point buffer', in One D&D it is just a way to get yourself killed while failing to meaningfully impact the battle.
The utility, yes. However, addressing the problem of Druid's with a boatload of hit points is not bad, and it allows for more of the other aspects of the Druid to be explored. Having the Druid and the Beast use the same hit point pool with some temporary hit points is a solid idea, and it does not make the feature useless whatsoever.
Your dungeon was level 4 you said? That's in the middle of the druid's ultimate power spike that starts at 2. I admitted they had too much power in those early levels. But that's a problem with the power curve they chose and it isn't that hard to correct.
You also mention it was multi-classed. Might I guess Barbarian/Druid? Because that build is a deeply optimized tanking build.
Either way I don't disagree that the original wildshape's power curve didn't need adjusting. I was actually hoping OneDnD would do just that. But it didn't need to be completely tossed in the garbage and replaced with a whole new mechanic, in my opinion.
At level 9, I'd much rather have (1d8+5/1d8+5/1d4+5) with +9 to hit, than (1d8+2/1d8+2/1d10+2) with +4 to hit. And the latter is one of the better options.
I'd rather be a 9th level spellcaster than either of those options. Combat Wild Shape at level 9 in 5e is 'emergency hit point buffer', in One D&D it is just a way to get yourself killed while failing to meaningfully impact the battle.
You still are a 9th level caster? What on Toril are you on about? I'm genuinely confused. If all you care about are spells, be a wizard.
I know this will be unpopular (and thus likely won't survive the feedback), but if they changed nothing else, I really like that the removed the HP buff from Wild Shape. That, if nothing else, was IMNSHO an overpowered and easily abused buff that wasn't even close to what other classes could do to increase hit points.
I'm in favor of any change that shifts the druid away from bestial tank to full caster.
I agree and I prefer caster druids also. But what about all the spells that are lost in the Primal spell list? Everyone is talking about wild shape, nobody is talking about the lost spells. If druids are limited to the new Primal list then they can no longer cast charm person, blight, geas, plane shift and many other spells they currently have.
That's actually a good point, I just noticed that they took away all of the good 5th level spells... no transmute rock, no maelstrom, no Wrath of Nature... they've turned you into just being a healer... No Heroes Feast!!! No Druid Grove, No Wind Walk!! No whirlwind or plane shift... No Hold Person! - they've taken away all of the Enchantment spells???
They're only making the Player's Handbook, so saying they lose non-PHB spells isn't exactly fair.
At level 9, I'd much rather have (1d8+5/1d8+5/1d4+5) with +9 to hit, than (1d8+2/1d8+2/1d10+2) with +4 to hit. And the latter is one of the better options.
I'd rather be a 9th level spellcaster than either of those options. Combat Wild Shape at level 9 in 5e is 'emergency hit point buffer', in One D&D it is just a way to get yourself killed while failing to meaningfully impact the battle.
You still are a 9th level caster? What on Toril are you on about? I'm genuinely confused. If all you care about are spells, be a wizard.
I know this will be unpopular (and thus likely won't survive the feedback), but if they changed nothing else, I really like that the removed the HP buff from Wild Shape. That, if nothing else, was IMNSHO an overpowered and easily abused buff that wasn't even close to what other classes could do to increase hit points.
I'm in favor of any change that shifts the druid away from bestial tank to full caster.
I agree and I prefer caster druids also. But what about all the spells that are lost in the Primal spell list? Everyone is talking about wild shape, nobody is talking about the lost spells. If druids are limited to the new Primal list then they can no longer cast charm person, blight, geas, plane shift and many other spells they currently have.
That's actually a good point, I just noticed that they took away all of the good 5th level spells... no transmute rock, no maelstrom, no Wrath of Nature... they've turned you into just being a healer... No Heroes Feast!!! No Druid Grove, No Wind Walk!! No whirlwind or plane shift... No Hold Person! - they've taken away all of the Enchantment spells???
They're only making the Player's Handbook, so saying they lose non-PHB spells isn't exactly fair.
The spells I'm talking about are all in the PHB. Charm Person, Blight, Geas, Plane Shift... all are in the PHB druid spell list and not on the Primal spell list.
I say it was fine because I've played druid numerous times and never once had a major problem with it. Searching the Monster Manual for wildshape options isn't any harder than looking through your spell selection, and once you have a few go-to forms it's very easy to play. What some of you consider a problem I consider part of the fun of the class.
Not a Druid player, but I can tell you as a Dungeon Master that Druids (and Moon Druids in particular) can often be a disaster to prepare encounters for. Wild Shape may have worked alright in your games when you where a player, but I daresay that not everyone has similar experiences with the class.
I was once playing in an adventure with a super min-maxed Druid tank, and they effectively tanked all of the 4 level dungeon except for the final encounter. I made a very optimized build that's sole purpose was to have a super high armor class and a lot of hit points, but the multiclassed Druid - who focused mainly on damage - was still able to be better than me at surviving.
So yeah, I pretty much agree with everything Pantagruel is saying on this, which is quite unusual but neat I guess. 5e's Wild Shape is not good and just because you didn't notice a problem doesn't mean one doesn't exist. This playtest did not to a good job of fixing this issue at all, but the feature does have some issues that should probably be fixed in order to allow for more other cool abilities and concepts for the class.
Removing all the utility of the different animal abilities and removing the bonus HP that allowed the wildshape form to survive in melee goes waaaaay too far to the point of making the entire feature useless.
The utility, yes. However, addressing the problem of Druid's with a boatload of hit points is not bad, and it allows for more of the other aspects of the Druid to be explored. Having the Druid and the Beast use the same hit point pool with some temporary hit points is a solid idea, and it does not make the feature useless whatsoever.
I've both played a Moon druid for a 2+ year campaign, and DMed druids of every single subclass. Druid as a base class is underpowered compared to Cleric, Wizard, Bard, or Warlock, their DPR is awful and their spells are all circumstantial so about 50% of the spells you have prepared will be useless against that particular encounter, your cantrips have absolutely horrible scaling - when your wizard buddy is dishing out 3d10 at 120ft with Firebolt you're at 3d6 at 60ft with Produce Flame. Outside of your spellcasting the only thing you get from your class is Wildshape which is not viable in combat unless you are a Moondruid, it is purely a utility feature. Now 5e Wildshape is really nice as a utility feature though, different senses, different movement types, different sizes, each particular form is generally only good at one thing - scouting, str-based stuff, or getting somewhere hard to get to - so you usually don't stay in WS very long, but it is so flexible it fills in a lot of holes when you don't have the right spells prepared for that day's exploration challenges - which is good b/c Druids generally suck in social encounters so being able to make friends by being a cute kitten is usually your best option in a social encounter.
That said, two of the subclasses are horribly unbalanced - Shepherd and Moon.
Moon druid is stupidly OP from levels 2-5, level 5-8 Moon druid remains super tanky but their DPR starts to drag - you need to invest in concentration save-related feats to double up with a concentration damage spell + your wildshape attacks to maintain competitive DPR. Level 9 is awful, CR 3 beasts are god-awful, fortunately you just have to suffer through this for 1 level before you get elemental wildshapes at level 10, from here on out beast are irrelevant and you're picking the appropriate elemental for each combat. The elementals remain relatively tanky but your DPR is that of the most basic unoptimized martial, for until level 13-14. By level 13-14 even Moondruid is not really using their WS in combat anymore except either for emergencies or if you're whacking through lots of weak combats, for the BBEG fights you're sticking with your spells not your WS.
Shepherd druid is more consistently table-disruptive however. The Unicorn Totem makes it impossible to kill anyone even in BBEG fights, I've routinely put monster 4 CRs higher than the limit for a "Deadly" encounter against a party with a Shepherd druid and they've been fine, sure I can knock a couple of them down to 0hp but the Shepherd is dishing out 30 points of healing every round as a bonus action without even using their concentration. Add to that the fact that all their features push them to summoning a absolute horde of buddies and you've got DPR ~50 at a cost of only the druid's concentration.
However, if you look at Circle of Dreams you've got a nicely balanced support-healer with some WS utility. Circle of Stars is a nicely balanced utility-blaster. Wildfire (aside from the unlimited group teleport) likewise is a good support-blaster. Circle of the Land is terrible, I've only had one player play it for flavour reasons and by level 6 they were asking for help either multiclassing or swapping to a different subclass b/c they only had 1 extra spell from outside the druid spell list they were using from the class, and almost everything else in the subclass are ribbon features. Circle of Spores is just barely good enough to keep players invested, too many of their features are tied to the tmpHP they get as their alternative WS and those tmphp barely last 1 round if they are in melee which is what the subclass is designed around, however giving them a thematic and synergistic staff has enabled their melee DPR to remain relevant and some AC boosting magic items have enabled their temphp to survive long enough for them to actually use their subclass features.
The Druid base class desperately needs new features that support alternative play-styles other than WS - bards and clerics both get lots of other class features and play the same role as casters as the Druid does, so I don't know why Druid has been given such a short-end-of-the-stick in terms of class features. Those would give the caster-focused subclasses something to build on so they are more viable. Combat Wildshapes needs a total overhaul, but regular WS needs to still function as a utility feature for casting-focused druids.
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Personally, I strongly suspect that its less that the druid's class fantasy is unpopular and more that the current iteration of the druid just doesn't successfully fulfill the desired class fantasy that many people want.
In the video, for instance, Crawford noted that many people that wanted to play a Moon Druid were disappointed that they couldn't simply keep a single animal type, and were effectively forced to bounce between things like bears, giant snakes, mammoths, etc. depending on level and CR. Back-to-nature shaman types are abound in fantasy stories (which would be a druid under the 5e paradigm), but all of them being innately shapeshifters? That's less common.
I don't particularly care whether Druid remains back of the pack or not. Even with this simplification they are probably still going to be the most complex class in core and that's fine. What I care about is that the MM should stay DM-facing and that combat wild shape should be able to scale decently well past level 6.
Is anyone else frustrated by the fact that with the Primal spell list, druids would lose access to many spells including Charm Person, Blight, Geas, and Plane Shift? That's the biggest problem I have with this new version, but the fact that there's no temp HP in wild shape also sucks. They need to have a way to gain temporary HP during wild shape and keep the class spell lists as an option.
I know this will be unpopular (and thus likely won't survive the feedback), but if they changed nothing else, I really like that the removed the HP buff from Wild Shape. That, if nothing else, was IMNSHO an overpowered and easily abused buff that wasn't even close to what other classes could do to increase hit points. A 6th level Circle of the Moon druid effectively has between 80 and 100 extra hit points (depending the beast chosen/allowed) if they use Wild Shape twice in a combat.
I'm in favor of any change that shifts the druid away from bestial tank to full caster.
I agree and I prefer caster druids also. But what about all the spells that are lost in the Primal spell list? Everyone is talking about wild shape, nobody is talking about the lost spells. If druids are limited to the new Primal list then they can no longer cast charm person, blight, geas, plane shift and many other spells they currently have.
Is "useless at all levels" decent scaling?
That was only for the Moon Druid though, so that they could actually function as a front-liner with an AC 11. All other druids the HP you got from WS was ~13 hp increasing to 30 hp at level 8. Without that HP buff moon druids would be dead if they tried to use their WS in combat. Sure the buff was unbalanced at level 2 (but then everything about moon druid was unbalanced at level 2), but by level 6 the hp buff was usually just enough to get me through a combat in WS with the moon druid I played.
I sort of like the removal of the HP buff, but I also wish Druids got a few temporary hit points when they transformed. Also, Wild Shape wasn't actually that broken in 5e (at least in my experiences). If the developers want to remove the mechanic to open up for other conceptual themes for the class, then they need to add something else in to replace it.
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HERE.That's actually a good point, I just noticed that they took away all of the good 5th level spells... no transmute rock, no maelstrom, no Wrath of Nature... they've turned you into just being a healer... No Heroes Feast!!! No Druid Grove, No Wind Walk!! No whirlwind or plane shift... No Hold Person! - they've taken away all of the Enchantment spells???
Some of those spells aren't in the PHB so we don't know they're gone yet. They may come back with the equivalent setting specific books for 6e.
Overall the druid gains access to 18 spells and loses access to 13 spells for a net gain of 5 compared to the PHB.
I say it was fine because I've played druid numerous times and never once had a major problem with it. Searching the Monster Manual for wildshape options isn't any harder than looking through your spell selection, and once you have a few go-to forms it's very easy to play. What some of you consider a problem I consider part of the fun of the class.
I'll fully acknowledge Moon Druid had scaling issues, but that wouldn't be too hard to correct. Not getting the sub-class until level 3 already resolves the level 2 massive power spike, and restricting multi-attack until level 5 already prevents druids from out-damaging martials in the super early game.
Removing all the utility of the different animal abilities and removing the bonus HP that allowed the wildshape form to survive in melee goes waaaaay too far to the point of making the entire feature useless.
There's two major balance issues with Moon Druids.
One of them is that CR 1 is just way too high at level 2, particularly with two uses, but it actually scales pretty badly at higher levels, by late tier 2 I found that wild shape was more "emergency hp sponge" than something I actually did to fight. That's actually relatively easy to resolve.
The other is that, as monsters keep being published, you're guaranteed that some sourcebook will produce some poorly thought out creature. There's no real way around that other than hard limiting the list of available creatures.
At level 9, I'd much rather have (1d8+5/1d8+5/1d4+5) with +9 to hit, than (1d8+2/1d8+2/1d10+2) with +4 to hit. And the latter is one of the better options.
I'm not saying the proposed moon druid is perfect, but it's definitely an improvement.
Not a Druid player, but I can tell you as a Dungeon Master that Druids (and Moon Druids in particular) can often be a disaster to prepare encounters for. Wild Shape may have worked alright in your games when you where a player, but I daresay that not everyone has similar experiences with the class.
I was once playing in an adventure with a super min-maxed Druid tank, and they effectively tanked all of the 4 level dungeon except for the final encounter. I made a very optimized build that's sole purpose was to have a super high armor class and a lot of hit points, but the multiclassed Druid - who focused mainly on damage - was still able to be better than me at surviving.
So yeah, I pretty much agree with everything Pantagruel is saying on this, which is quite unusual but neat I guess. 5e's Wild Shape is not good and just because you didn't notice a problem doesn't mean one doesn't exist. This playtest did not to a good job of fixing this issue at all, but the feature does have some issues that should probably be fixed in order to allow for more other cool abilities and concepts for the class.
The utility, yes. However, addressing the problem of Druid's with a boatload of hit points is not bad, and it allows for more of the other aspects of the Druid to be explored. Having the Druid and the Beast use the same hit point pool with some temporary hit points is a solid idea, and it does not make the feature useless whatsoever.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
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Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.The second problem can be resolved with a bit of DM fiat. It's no different than if Wizards published a book with some overpowered class features or when players find out an unfairly powerful multi-class combo Wizards clearly didn't think of.
Plus druids are hard limited in their list of available creatures. It's done by CR. If Wizards publishes a CR4 monster with stats more appropriate for a CR9 creature then that isn't just a druid wildshape problem, it's a design mistake on their part that they should eratta anyway.
I'd rather be a 9th level spellcaster than either of those options. Combat Wild Shape at level 9 in 5e is 'emergency hit point buffer', in One D&D it is just a way to get yourself killed while failing to meaningfully impact the battle.
Your dungeon was level 4 you said? That's in the middle of the druid's ultimate power spike that starts at 2. I admitted they had too much power in those early levels. But that's a problem with the power curve they chose and it isn't that hard to correct.
You also mention it was multi-classed. Might I guess Barbarian/Druid? Because that build is a deeply optimized tanking build.
Either way I don't disagree that the original wildshape's power curve didn't need adjusting. I was actually hoping OneDnD would do just that. But it didn't need to be completely tossed in the garbage and replaced with a whole new mechanic, in my opinion.
You still are a 9th level caster? What on Toril are you on about? I'm genuinely confused. If all you care about are spells, be a wizard.
They're only making the Player's Handbook, so saying they lose non-PHB spells isn't exactly fair.
The spells I'm talking about are all in the PHB. Charm Person, Blight, Geas, Plane Shift... all are in the PHB druid spell list and not on the Primal spell list.
I've both played a Moon druid for a 2+ year campaign, and DMed druids of every single subclass. Druid as a base class is underpowered compared to Cleric, Wizard, Bard, or Warlock, their DPR is awful and their spells are all circumstantial so about 50% of the spells you have prepared will be useless against that particular encounter, your cantrips have absolutely horrible scaling - when your wizard buddy is dishing out 3d10 at 120ft with Firebolt you're at 3d6 at 60ft with Produce Flame. Outside of your spellcasting the only thing you get from your class is Wildshape which is not viable in combat unless you are a Moondruid, it is purely a utility feature. Now 5e Wildshape is really nice as a utility feature though, different senses, different movement types, different sizes, each particular form is generally only good at one thing - scouting, str-based stuff, or getting somewhere hard to get to - so you usually don't stay in WS very long, but it is so flexible it fills in a lot of holes when you don't have the right spells prepared for that day's exploration challenges - which is good b/c Druids generally suck in social encounters so being able to make friends by being a cute kitten is usually your best option in a social encounter.
That said, two of the subclasses are horribly unbalanced - Shepherd and Moon.
Moon druid is stupidly OP from levels 2-5, level 5-8 Moon druid remains super tanky but their DPR starts to drag - you need to invest in concentration save-related feats to double up with a concentration damage spell + your wildshape attacks to maintain competitive DPR. Level 9 is awful, CR 3 beasts are god-awful, fortunately you just have to suffer through this for 1 level before you get elemental wildshapes at level 10, from here on out beast are irrelevant and you're picking the appropriate elemental for each combat. The elementals remain relatively tanky but your DPR is that of the most basic unoptimized martial, for until level 13-14. By level 13-14 even Moondruid is not really using their WS in combat anymore except either for emergencies or if you're whacking through lots of weak combats, for the BBEG fights you're sticking with your spells not your WS.
Shepherd druid is more consistently table-disruptive however. The Unicorn Totem makes it impossible to kill anyone even in BBEG fights, I've routinely put monster 4 CRs higher than the limit for a "Deadly" encounter against a party with a Shepherd druid and they've been fine, sure I can knock a couple of them down to 0hp but the Shepherd is dishing out 30 points of healing every round as a bonus action without even using their concentration. Add to that the fact that all their features push them to summoning a absolute horde of buddies and you've got DPR ~50 at a cost of only the druid's concentration.
However, if you look at Circle of Dreams you've got a nicely balanced support-healer with some WS utility. Circle of Stars is a nicely balanced utility-blaster. Wildfire (aside from the unlimited group teleport) likewise is a good support-blaster. Circle of the Land is terrible, I've only had one player play it for flavour reasons and by level 6 they were asking for help either multiclassing or swapping to a different subclass b/c they only had 1 extra spell from outside the druid spell list they were using from the class, and almost everything else in the subclass are ribbon features. Circle of Spores is just barely good enough to keep players invested, too many of their features are tied to the tmpHP they get as their alternative WS and those tmphp barely last 1 round if they are in melee which is what the subclass is designed around, however giving them a thematic and synergistic staff has enabled their melee DPR to remain relevant and some AC boosting magic items have enabled their temphp to survive long enough for them to actually use their subclass features.
The Druid base class desperately needs new features that support alternative play-styles other than WS - bards and clerics both get lots of other class features and play the same role as casters as the Druid does, so I don't know why Druid has been given such a short-end-of-the-stick in terms of class features. Those would give the caster-focused subclasses something to build on so they are more viable. Combat Wildshapes needs a total overhaul, but regular WS needs to still function as a utility feature for casting-focused druids.