The new Paladin makes the Cleric feel like a poor PC choice overall.
At level 1 you are getting the same spell capability access as the cleric (apart from 1 cantrip) better HP and Armour/Weapon proficiencies.
Why bother playing a Cleric when the Paladin seems to already provide all that and more?
I feel that more work differentiating the Paladin and Cleric capabilities needs to be done.
5th edition feels much better balanced between the two classes at the moment and each class had a more focused spell list. This new full Divine spell pool takes some of the flavour away from each class.
I don't like that all classes so far are getting Healing features at 1st level (and at-distance healing features for most of them). Too much healing in the game, imo, and being a healer should be a choice, not something that's imposed.
Also, what happened to the extra smite damage against fiends and undead? Earlier editions, iirc, paladin smite only worked against fiends and undead. That was the holy purpose of the smite! Now it seems gone, unless I'm missing something or they plan on giving it to certain paladin subclasses only.
Seven of the druid's class features now strictly and solely affect Wild Shape.
If you were one of those druids who played the class despite Wild Shape because you liked doing other things on the druid chassis (Stars, Wildfire), you get to suck one and find a new class.
That is...frustrating.
Ehm, please explain this quote
Circle of Stars - Starry Form uses Wilshape Circle of Wildfire - Summon Wildfire Spirit, uses Wildshape
The rest of the features, is kept as is, work as intended. What, according to you, changed that fact except to give more options in the main class?
The new Paladin makes the Cleric feel like a poor PC choice overall.
At level 1 you are getting the same spell capability access as the cleric (apart from 1 cantrip) better HP and Armour/Weapon proficiencies.
Why bother playing a Cleric when the Paladin seems to already provide all that and more?
I feel that more work differentiating the Paladin and Cleric capabilities needs to be done.
5th edition feels much better balanced between the two classes at the moment and each class had a more focused spell list. This new full Divine spell pool takes some of the flavour away from each class.
Maybe see the difference at later levels. 5th, 11th, 15th.
They feel very similar, but Paladin tends to be more martially inclined and Cleric more spellcaster inclined.
But I do agree that they should keep the classes different at their core.
I think I understand why they didn't want to allow druids to wildshape into Tiny creatures at early levels. If rogues are to be the infiltrator / stealth experts, then it's their shtick and Tiny druids are stepping on the rogue's toes. But by giving the druid a Tiny familiar through which they can spy, it amounts to the same thing.
I was hoping they'd have taken the opportunity to revamp Druidcraft to be a little more versatile; not more powerful, since it's primarily for flavor, just some added functionality so it doesn't feel like I'm shoehorning it in every time I want to use it for flavor.
"During your Move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition, a Tiny creature, or a creature who is two sizes larger or smaller than you. Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you, unless that creature is Tiny or your ally."
So moving through allies is no longer considered difficult terrain. Helps when you're in a 5 feet wide corridor and need to get in front, I guess. But what if you and your ally are both Large? Or if you're Medium and you have Huge allies in front of you. You can just walk through them? I feel there should be a size limit there as well.
"During your Move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition, a Tiny creature, or a creature who is two sizes larger or smaller than you. Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you, unless that creature is Tiny or your ally."
So moving through allies is no longer considered difficult terrain. Helps when you're in a 5 feet wide corridor and need to get in front, I guess. But what if you and your ally are both Large? Or if you're Medium and you have Huge allies in front of you. You can just walk through them? I feel there should be a size limit there as well.
Creatures don't occupy every inch of their space*, space just refers to the area they control during combat. If you're Large in a 10ft corridor, you can still maneuver around a Large ally most of the time.
Seven of the druid's class features now strictly and solely affect Wild Shape.
If you were one of those druids who played the class despite Wild Shape because you liked doing other things on the druid chassis (Stars, Wildfire), you get to suck one and find a new class.
That is...frustrating.
Ehm, please explain this quote
Circle of Stars - Starry Form uses Wildshape Circle of Wildfire - Summon Wildfire Spirit, uses Wildshape
The rest of the features, is kept as is, work as intended. What, according to you, changed that fact except to give more options in the main class?
Nothing has changed in that regard.
If I may?
Everything has changed. You no longer have "uses of Wildshape" as in 5e. You now have uses of Channel Nature, which comes with three features by default (wildshape, healing, familiar), with the potential to gain more uses in each subclass.
However, the Druid class has listed abilities that specifically rely on using Wildshape. Take Wild Resurgence, for instance.
"When you use your Wild Shape, primal magic radiates from you,allowing you to use Healing Blossoms as part of the same use of Channel Nature"
Someone who's using Channel Nature to summon a spirit (Shepherd, Wildfire) isn't going to benefit from this ability. A member of the Circle of Dreams (healing focused subclass) wouldn't be using Wild Shape either - they'd be using Healing Blossoms by default. I'm guessing a Circle of the Land druid would get a new Channel Nature ability.
If I'm playing Circle of the Stars, you could argue that this circle grants you a new style of Wild Shape. Form of the Stars, or whatever. In that case, the level 5 abilities to grant multiattack/climb speed are pointless, as is level 7's Aquatic Form and Level 9's Ariel Form.
No matter how you look at it, the current druid is only set up to cater to the Moon druid shapeshifter archetype, and all others are screwed out of class abilities.
The new Paladin makes the Cleric feel like a poor PC choice overall.
At level 1 you are getting the same spell capability access as the cleric (apart from 1 cantrip) better HP and Armour/Weapon proficiencies.
Why bother playing a Cleric when the Paladin seems to already provide all that and more?
I feel that more work differentiating the Paladin and Cleric capabilities needs to be done.
On top of being a full caster which plays very differently from a gish like the paladin, the cleric also gets several abilities specifically designed to counter undead, making them a kind of anti-necromancer. The closest thing Paladins get is Divine Sense, which is just as likely to ping off fiendish things as undead.
I see a lot of good things and a lot of bad things in this UA. If I want to have more HP in WS I can increase my CON.
However, the three animal forms lack flavor. They are all very similar. It's fine to keep levels for acquatic and aeral (the current druid already does), but they need special traits to improve versatility.
Now, I can't get tiny, but I can send my familiar out exploring. I spend no uses of the WS and maintain control over it. Also, if someone catches me, the familiar may die while I stay alive where I am. Without risking separating myself from the party.
Seven of the druid's class features now strictly and solely affect Wild Shape.
If you were one of those druids who played the class despite Wild Shape because you liked doing other things on the druid chassis (Stars, Wildfire), you get to suck one and find a new class.
That is...frustrating.
Ehm, please explain this quote
Circle of Stars - Starry Form uses Wildshape Circle of Wildfire - Summon Wildfire Spirit, uses Wildshape
The rest of the features, is kept as is, work as intended. What, according to you, changed that fact except to give more options in the main class?
Nothing has changed in that regard.
If I may?
Everything has changed. You no longer have "uses of Wildshape" as in 5e. You now have uses of Channel Nature, which comes with three features by default (wildshape, healing, familiar), with the potential to gain more uses in each subclass.
However, the Druid class has listed abilities that specifically rely on using Wildshape. Take Wild Resurgence, for instance.
"When you use your Wild Shape, primal magic radiates from you,allowing you to use Healing Blossoms as part of the same use of Channel Nature"
Someone who's using Channel Nature to summon a spirit (Shepherd, Wildfire) isn't going to benefit from this ability. A member of the Circle of Dreams (healing focused subclass) wouldn't be using Wild Shape either - they'd be using Healing Blossoms by default. I'm guessing a Circle of the Land druid would get a new Channel Nature ability.
If I'm playing Circle of the Stars, you could argue that this circle grants you a new style of Wild Shape. Form of the Stars, or whatever. In that case, the level 5 abilities to grant multiattack/climb speed are pointless, as is level 7's Aquatic Form and Level 9's Ariel Form.
No matter how you look at it, the current druid is only set up to cater to the Moon druid shapeshifter archetype, and all others are screwed out of class abilities.
Well this is for the PHB classes, not every subclass from every book. We don’t know if Channel Nature to “summon a spirit (Shepard/Wildfire)” will get this when they are revised. And Any Druid using Channel Nature to summon a spirit (Find Familiar) isn’t getting this either. It is an option. I play a Land Druid (level 15 atm) and I use WS for utility not for combat. So now I have more options and I definitely wouldn’t use WS if my intention was healing. So that ability (wild resurgence) isn’t all that helpful there and I will mention that in the survey.
I mean, my goodness, we are getting more uses of Channel Nature (wildshape) and more options. And this is a problem? I thought options were a good thing? And now those subclasses can build on this versatility.
Not saying I love everything in this UA. I’m just not seeing the issue.
Edit: and I haven’t had time to read the whole thread but I also think some kind of HP boost for WS would be nice. Maybe Temp HP. Would THP equal to twice your Druid level (four or five times your Druid level for Moon Druid) be too much to ask for?
The new Paladin makes the Cleric feel like a poor PC choice overall.
At level 1 you are getting the same spell capability access as the cleric (apart from 1 cantrip) better HP and Armour/Weapon proficiencies.
Why bother playing a Cleric when the Paladin seems to already provide all that and more?
I feel that more work differentiating the Paladin and Cleric capabilities needs to be done.
5th edition feels much better balanced between the two classes at the moment and each class had a more focused spell list. This new full Divine spell pool takes some of the flavour away from each class.
Other than being a full caster they can cast all the smite spells that used to be the purview of the Paladin. I could see a case being made for the exact opposite.
I see a lot of good things and a lot of bad things in this UA. If I want to have more HP in WS I can increase my CON.
However, the three animal forms lack flavor. They are all very similar. It's fine to keep levels for acquatic and aeral (the current druid already does), but they need special traits to improve versatility.
Now, I can't get tiny, but I can send my familiar out exploring. I spend no uses of the WS and maintain control over it. Also, if someone catches me, the familiar may die while I stay alive where I am. Without risking separating myself from the party.
That's a good point. The complaints about lack of a tiny form for utility scouting are forgetting that they can just summon a tiny familiar to scout and look through their eyes.
A lot of utility by none of the forms having access to specialized senses like blindsight/tremor sense, or no access to a burrowing speed. I was never super jazzed about wild shape in general but removing access to what few niche abilities beasts have and use makes me even less interested in it. An easy way to get some of this back is to have an "Animal of the Soil" form with tremor sense and a burrowing speed.
Scouting is hampered by gating Tiny Size behind level 11... but they also bundled Wild Companion into Channel Nature so if your druid needs to scout you can always summon a familiar especially since you can use its senses without blinding your own and do so without any stated range limitation, not even any text requiring that you both be on the same plane of existence. You can Summon a Wild Companion, chuck it through a portal to Mechanus and see what it's like on the other side. Granted since its a first level spell it's mechanically better to just take Find Familiar through Magic Initiate and get a Familiar without a 1 day time limit that you can soup up with spell slots because FIND FAMILIAR BENEFITS FROM UPCASTING NOW.
With light armor and shields Base Druid AC is limited to 12 + DEX + 2. And Wildshaped AC is limited to 10 + WIS. If your DEX modifier is 4 your Wildshape has a lower AC than your base one. Sky form AC is bizarrely even lower for some reason (8 + WIS) because being able to fly somehow makes you easier to hit??? I get that it's probably more of a tradeoff for being able to fly and the flyby trait but that's already taken into account by being gated behind 9th level and having a smaller damage die on Bestial Strike.
Wildshape AC needs an additional bonus to it. Granted when DEX and CON of your new form get replaced by your WIS modifier it gets fuzzy. Easiest way to scale it would be 8 + WIS + PB. Then your AC in Wildshape form would range from 10-15 to 16-21. Considering Wildshape doesn't grant any HP buffer this seems fair.
Scaling it on PB brings multiclass dip concerns but at level 1 you only have the Land form without climbing or Multiattack so I wouldn't be too concerned about it, further "You lose access to all your other features" doesn't carry any exception for features from your class and race (which is its own bag of worms).
Generally I definitely agree with others that we could either use some build-a-shape rules or otherwise have more available forms (...which reverting it to beast options in the MM would do pretty well).
Paladins:
I was not expecting Paladins to have access to the full Divine Spell list. Granted it's just 5th level and under... but I assumed school limitations were going to be the norm for non-Wizards, non-Clerics, and non-Druids. They should really revisit the Ranger's spell list limitations if they're just giving Paladins everything. Bards too, but it still makes sense to have some limitations cause the Arcane list is a monster compared to the Divine and Primal lists.
I like the concept of Smite spells being bonus actions spells with a trigger condition, and the only ones retaining concentration are smites with ongoing effects. (Searing smite is an exception)
Aura of Protection, Yurei mentioned earlier that Aura of Protection already didn't stack and that's absolutely correct... however, Aura of Protection used to be just one of like 7 or 8 different Auras a Paladin might have simultaneously. Now Aura of Protection is every aura a Paladin has, all other aura effects are riders on Aura of Protection, including subclass Auras. Still most of those are the same since they're from the Paladin base class however it's the Aura effects of different Paladin subclasses make the choice significant. A creature can only benefit from one. However again... that's a limit on benefits, not detriments. So multiple aura effects that hamper enemies are still fair game.
Abjure Foes... seems pretty dang strong. It's like Hypnotic patterns younger brother except that the Dazed effect always applies even on successful saving throws.
Radiant Strikes is a baby divine smite that's not limited to once per turn. That's hella good.
I find it odd that Lay On Hands condition removal goes from only able to remove Poisoned at level 1 to overnight being able to remove 8 different conditions at level 15. I feel like that's something that should improve more gradually, every couple of levels add a new condition that Lay On Hands can remove for the cost of 5 HP from the pool.
Find Familiar:
I'm of two minds on this one.
On the one hand, this is a massive improvement and a better solution overall power wise for a 1st level spell and unlike Wild Shape's templates I feel like the Otherworldly Familiar template gives us enough to work with for a familiar. For that reason I'm probably going to rate this one highly in the survey. Though the upcasting kind of removes the point of making this a ritual spell as you'd just pick a downtime day to sink your highest level spell slot into a your familiar for the best survivability. (Or you'd eschew that idea and keep it low leveled for versatility of form).
On the other hand I'm indignant about how good this 1st level spell is compared to the Homunculus Servant now. Particularly in customizability. An Artificer Infusion should be generally better than a first level spell. I get that the HS and Artificer in general were pioneering a lot of the design concepts they're trying out in 1D&D now... but each one leaves the Artificer in the dust and I'm not optimistic we'll ever get any updates or clarifications to Artificers in 1D&D. Even if we do, they'll likely be past 2024 at the earliest.
Well this is for the PHB classes, not every subclass from every book. We don’t know if Channel Nature to “summon a spirit (Shepard/Wildfire)” will get this when they are revised. And Any Druid using Channel Nature to summon a spirit (Find Familiar) isn’t getting this either. It is an option. I play a Land Druid (level 15 atm) and I use WS for utility not for combat. So now I have more options and I definitely wouldn’t use WS if my intention was healing. So that ability (wild resurgence) isn’t all that helpful there and I will mention that in the survey.
The 1D&D core book will include 4 different subclasses for each class, not just 2 like in the 5e core book. Pretty much every subclass after the core book had alternative uses for Wildshape. Plus, the class should reflect future goals, not just be mirred in the 5e core book mindset.
I mean, my goodness, we are getting more uses of Channel Nature (wildshape) and more options. And this is a problem? I thought options were a good thing? And now those subclasses can build on this versatility.
Not saying I love everything in this UA. I’m just not seeing the issue.
Yes, its a problem, because those options effectively end at level 2, with only level 18 an exception. Its a problem because its telling any players the class is meant to focus around wildshape, and only to use the other options if you absolutely need them. Its a bad design for anything non-shapeshiftery.
As a personal thought on reflection for what I might do for Moon Druid. Allow them to spend spell slots to add specified augmentation to their forms, like what Circle of the Primeval could do to their Primal Companion. This would allow them to burn their spells, taking away their potential outside of the form, but maximizing what they could be doing with it. As a way to get around the reality of them being a 9th level caster. They shouldn't be able to outright overtake a martial regardless, and I'd hope the design encourages Moon Druids to fight in unconventional, creative ways. To be as versatile and multifaceted as the Moon, as the true theme of the subclass.
I'm playing as a Lizardfolk Wildfire Druid in my first game (we're about through Chapter 4 of Waterdeep Dragon Heist), and a lot of the way I designed that character was based around things that I didn't like about the Wild Shape feature of the class.
I picked Wildfire because it isn't dependent on turning into animals, and I nerfed it even further with the flavor that, as a Lizardfolk, the idea of turning into another creature is really difficult for him to get his head around (like my birds, who treat me as a strangely-shaped bird, or cats, who treat their favorite people like maladjusted cats, his concept of identity is very animalistic). At level 3, he has only just learned to turn into 1) a lizard-- basically himself, but smaller, and 2) a rat, after forming a close bond with some Waterdeep rats.
Aside from the fact that losing Tiny (until level 11, which for me seems forever away) would ruin all of my great rat shenanigans, I think the three stat blocks are very close to being a great change. One of the reasons I didn't like Wildshape to begin with was constant animal-lover quibbles with the stats and abilities assigned to different creatures (cats aren't owl-tier, but they should have darkvision). Adding some customization to the UA charts (maybe some that unlock at higher levels) would take them from blandifying to magical-- you could play fantastical species only known to your strange homeland! You could flavor your changes like a shifter and retain a humanoid body! You could have been raised by a family of animals a la Mowgli and take the form of your family members! You could be a druid who loves birds who now changes into nothing but different birds (cassowaries, penguins, I'm starting to design my next character just thinking about it)!
It's SO CLOSE to being a change I could get excited about, but that additional customizability players are suggesting is really the difference between amazing and awful. Also let me be tiny. Let me be a little guy.
A lot of the general streamlining I like, and I've already been playing with the Find Familiar option from Tasha's (really don't think it's a substitute for being Tiny, mechanically or flavor-wise). Am I correct in noticing that Druids no longer regain both Wild Shape uses after a short rest? Because that is a bit of a bummer, don't really know that this needed to be nerfed. The equipment rules make perfect sense to me. Alternating Forms is cool, but doesn't do much for characters like mine. I'm hoping to see more from future subclasses that branches out the way Spores, Wildfire, and Stars did.
Well this is for the PHB classes, not every subclass from every book. We don’t know if Channel Nature to “summon a spirit (Shepard/Wildfire)” will get this when they are revised. And Any Druid using Channel Nature to summon a spirit (Find Familiar) isn’t getting this either. It is an option. I play a Land Druid (level 15 atm) and I use WS for utility not for combat. So now I have more options and I definitely wouldn’t use WS if my intention was healing. So that ability (wild resurgence) isn’t all that helpful there and I will mention that in the survey.
The 1D&D core book will include 4 different subclasses for each class, not just 2 like in the 5e core book. Pretty much every subclass after the core book had alternative uses for Wildshape. Plus, the class should reflect future goals, not just be mirred in the 5e core book mindset.
I mean, my goodness, we are getting more uses of Channel Nature (wildshape) and more options. And this is a problem? I thought options were a good thing? And now those subclasses can build on this versatility.
Not saying I love everything in this UA. I’m just not seeing the issue.
Yes, its a problem, because those options effectively end at level 2, with only level 18 an exception. Its a problem because its telling any players the class is meant to focus around wildshape, and only to use the other options if you absolutely need them. Its a bad design for anything non-shapeshiftery.
Ok. But lets look at the current 2014 Druid.
Level 1: Spellcasting and Druidic.
Level 2: Wildshape.
Level 18: Timeless Body and Beast Spells.
Level 20: Archdruid. That's all the features there are in the base class outside of the Druid Circles.
Level 2: Nature's Aid (Wild Companion *added in Tasha's I think so we already had it, and Healing Blossoms *new feature).
Level 5: Nature's Might (multiattack and climb speed *which you might have had in the 2014 class if the beast had it so kind of a wash).
Level 7: Aquatic Form (2014 added creatures with swim speed at 4th level)
Level 9: Aerial Form (2014 added fly speed at level 8).
Level 11: Tiny Critter (2014 depended on form you took starting at level 2 when you gained WS)
Level 13: Alternating Forms (2014 didn't have comparable feature so a nice quality of life improvement).
Level 15: Wild Resurgence (2014 didn't have comparable feature. I'm not sold on this feature, but it's something for nothing if you were wildshaping anyway).
Level 17: Beast Spells (1 level earlier than 2014 druid and you can cast spells that have M component as long as it's free and not consumed, which was part of 2014 Archdruid ability though the Archdruid 2014 feature gave this option in WS and normal form. But 2014 druid no M spells as part of Beast Spells feature)
Level 18: Archdruid (2014 was level 20 feature. It was more powerful than the UA version)
Level 20: Epic Boon Feat and +2 to one ability score (2014 didn't have comparable feature).
So many of the "new features" were already baked into the cake of the 2014 Wildshape feature. You could turn into an aquatic form as long as it didn't have swim speed sooner (if there were any that fit this description). They are listed as new features, but much of them you could already do.
But overall, the 2014 Druid and the UA Druid have about the same features. The UA added some options (more Channel Nature compared to Wildshapes with the Healing Blossoms added that 2014/Tasha's optional rules didn't have)
EDIT: The 2014 Druid base class was already Wildshape centric.
Seven of the druid's class features now strictly and solely affect Wild Shape.
If you were one of those druids who played the class despite Wild Shape because you liked doing other things on the druid chassis (Stars, Wildfire), you get to suck one and find a new class.
That is...frustrating.
Ehm, please explain this quote
Circle of Stars - Starry Form uses Wildshape Circle of Wildfire - Summon Wildfire Spirit, uses Wildshape
The rest of the features, is kept as is, work as intended. What, according to you, changed that fact except to give more options in the main class?
Nothing has changed in that regard.
If I may?
Everything has changed. You no longer have "uses of Wildshape" as in 5e. You now have uses of Channel Nature, which comes with three features by default (wildshape, healing, familiar), with the potential to gain more uses in each subclass.
However, the Druid class has listed abilities that specifically rely on using Wildshape. Take Wild Resurgence, for instance.
"When you use your Wild Shape, primal magic radiates from you,allowing you to use Healing Blossoms as part of the same use of Channel Nature"
Someone who's using Channel Nature to summon a spirit (Shepherd, Wildfire) isn't going to benefit from this ability. A member of the Circle of Dreams (healing focused subclass) wouldn't be using Wild Shape either - they'd be using Healing Blossoms by default. I'm guessing a Circle of the Land druid would get a new Channel Nature ability.
If I'm playing Circle of the Stars, you could argue that this circle grants you a new style of Wild Shape. Form of the Stars, or whatever. In that case, the level 5 abilities to grant multiattack/climb speed are pointless, as is level 7's Aquatic Form and Level 9's Ariel Form.
No matter how you look at it, the current druid is only set up to cater to the Moon druid shapeshifter archetype, and all others are screwed out of class abilities.
Thanks, I understand a little more of your point (and Yurei's)
Now, in 5e druids receive this improvements, attached to wildshape: - 4th: can wildshape into beasts with a swimming speed , and higher CR - 8th: can wildshape into beasts with flying speed, and higher CR. (Yes now its later, its happened with all new classes and some features in response to adjusting the level by level table of classes and putting all subclass features at 3, 6, 10, 14th). Starry Form didnt get any benefits from that either, and uses wildshape as a resource (nor any other subclass except moon druid who superseeded the CR part), so wildshape remained a base class feature, the only thing is of course that now everything uses Channel Nature as the global feature, instead of having 4-5 features each with its own separate uses to track. Remember that Moon Druid as as subclass expands or extends wildshape as a feature, others expand with options that arent really tied to wildshape, just the reasource.
Healing blossoms is there for everyone to use, not just Circle of Dream druids (that if they redesign and include in PHB it will probably have a different feature or upgrades to Healing Blossom, we dont know). You can still use Wildshape as is and your Balm of the Summer Court feature like before.
As for the new feature Wild Resurgence, why not suggest that its effects apply when you expend channel Nature for Wildshape and other similar options, in order for Starry Form , Wildfire spirit, Symbiotic Entity and the like to trigger its effect? I think is reasonable and on point, just by modifying a little of the language in the feature.
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The new Paladin makes the Cleric feel like a poor PC choice overall.
At level 1 you are getting the same spell capability access as the cleric (apart from 1 cantrip) better HP and Armour/Weapon proficiencies.
Why bother playing a Cleric when the Paladin seems to already provide all that and more?
I feel that more work differentiating the Paladin and Cleric capabilities needs to be done.
5th edition feels much better balanced between the two classes at the moment and each class had a more focused spell list. This new full Divine spell pool takes some of the flavour away from each class.
I don't like that all classes so far are getting Healing features at 1st level (and at-distance healing features for most of them). Too much healing in the game, imo, and being a healer should be a choice, not something that's imposed.
Also, what happened to the extra smite damage against fiends and undead? Earlier editions, iirc, paladin smite only worked against fiends and undead. That was the holy purpose of the smite! Now it seems gone, unless I'm missing something or they plan on giving it to certain paladin subclasses only.
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Ehm, please explain this quote
Circle of Stars - Starry Form uses Wilshape
Circle of Wildfire - Summon Wildfire Spirit, uses Wildshape
The rest of the features, is kept as is, work as intended.
What, according to you, changed that fact except to give more options in the main class?
Nothing has changed in that regard.
Maybe see the difference at later levels.
5th, 11th, 15th.
They feel very similar, but Paladin tends to be more martially inclined and Cleric more spellcaster inclined.
But I do agree that they should keep the classes different at their core.
I think I understand why they didn't want to allow druids to wildshape into Tiny creatures at early levels. If rogues are to be the infiltrator / stealth experts, then it's their shtick and Tiny druids are stepping on the rogue's toes. But by giving the druid a Tiny familiar through which they can spy, it amounts to the same thing.
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Playing D&D since 1st edition. DMs Guild Author: B.A. Morrier (4-5⭐products! Please check them out.) Twitter: @benmorrier he/him
I was hoping they'd have taken the opportunity to revamp Druidcraft to be a little more versatile; not more powerful, since it's primarily for flavor, just some added functionality so it doesn't feel like I'm shoehorning it in every time I want to use it for flavor.
Moving through the space of allies
So moving through allies is no longer considered difficult terrain. Helps when you're in a 5 feet wide corridor and need to get in front, I guess. But what if you and your ally are both Large? Or if you're Medium and you have Huge allies in front of you. You can just walk through them? I feel there should be a size limit there as well.
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Playing D&D since 1st edition. DMs Guild Author: B.A. Morrier (4-5⭐products! Please check them out.) Twitter: @benmorrier he/him
Creatures don't occupy every inch of their space*, space just refers to the area they control during combat. If you're Large in a 10ft corridor, you can still maneuver around a Large ally most of the time.
*Except Gelatinous Cubes
If I may?
Everything has changed. You no longer have "uses of Wildshape" as in 5e. You now have uses of Channel Nature, which comes with three features by default (wildshape, healing, familiar), with the potential to gain more uses in each subclass.
However, the Druid class has listed abilities that specifically rely on using Wildshape. Take Wild Resurgence, for instance.
"When you use your Wild Shape, primal magic
radiates from you, allowing you to use Healing
Blossoms as part of the same use of Channel
Nature"
Someone who's using Channel Nature to summon a spirit (Shepherd, Wildfire) isn't going to benefit from this ability. A member of the Circle of Dreams (healing focused subclass) wouldn't be using Wild Shape either - they'd be using Healing Blossoms by default. I'm guessing a Circle of the Land druid would get a new Channel Nature ability.
If I'm playing Circle of the Stars, you could argue that this circle grants you a new style of Wild Shape. Form of the Stars, or whatever. In that case, the level 5 abilities to grant multiattack/climb speed are pointless, as is level 7's Aquatic Form and Level 9's Ariel Form.
No matter how you look at it, the current druid is only set up to cater to the Moon druid shapeshifter archetype, and all others are screwed out of class abilities.
On top of being a full caster which plays very differently from a gish like the paladin, the cleric also gets several abilities specifically designed to counter undead, making them a kind of anti-necromancer. The closest thing Paladins get is Divine Sense, which is just as likely to ping off fiendish things as undead.
I see a lot of good things and a lot of bad things in this UA. If I want to have more HP in WS I can increase my CON.
However, the three animal forms lack flavor. They are all very similar. It's fine to keep levels for acquatic and aeral (the current druid already does), but they need special traits to improve versatility.
Now, I can't get tiny, but I can send my familiar out exploring. I spend no uses of the WS and maintain control over it. Also, if someone catches me, the familiar may die while I stay alive where I am. Without risking separating myself from the party.
Well this is for the PHB classes, not every subclass from every book. We don’t know if Channel Nature to “summon a spirit (Shepard/Wildfire)” will get this when they are revised. And Any Druid using Channel Nature to summon a spirit (Find Familiar) isn’t getting this either. It is an option. I play a Land Druid (level 15 atm) and I use WS for utility not for combat. So now I have more options and I definitely wouldn’t use WS if my intention was healing. So that ability (wild resurgence) isn’t all that helpful there and I will mention that in the survey.
I mean, my goodness, we are getting more uses of Channel Nature (wildshape) and more options. And this is a problem? I thought options were a good thing? And now those subclasses can build on this versatility.
Not saying I love everything in this UA. I’m just not seeing the issue.
Edit: and I haven’t had time to read the whole thread but I also think some kind of HP boost for WS would be nice. Maybe Temp HP. Would THP equal to twice your Druid level (four or five times your Druid level for Moon Druid) be too much to ask for?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Other than being a full caster they can cast all the smite spells that used to be the purview of the Paladin. I could see a case being made for the exact opposite.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
That's a good point. The complaints about lack of a tiny form for utility scouting are forgetting that they can just summon a tiny familiar to scout and look through their eyes.
Druids (Or mostly just Wildshape):
A lot of utility by none of the forms having access to specialized senses like blindsight/tremor sense, or no access to a burrowing speed. I was never super jazzed about wild shape in general but removing access to what few niche abilities beasts have and use makes me even less interested in it. An easy way to get some of this back is to have an "Animal of the Soil" form with tremor sense and a burrowing speed.
Scouting is hampered by gating Tiny Size behind level 11... but they also bundled Wild Companion into Channel Nature so if your druid needs to scout you can always summon a familiar especially since you can use its senses without blinding your own and do so without any stated range limitation, not even any text requiring that you both be on the same plane of existence. You can Summon a Wild Companion, chuck it through a portal to Mechanus and see what it's like on the other side. Granted since its a first level spell it's mechanically better to just take Find Familiar through Magic Initiate and get a Familiar without a 1 day time limit that you can soup up with spell slots because FIND FAMILIAR BENEFITS FROM UPCASTING NOW.
With light armor and shields Base Druid AC is limited to 12 + DEX + 2. And Wildshaped AC is limited to 10 + WIS. If your DEX modifier is 4 your Wildshape has a lower AC than your base one. Sky form AC is bizarrely even lower for some reason (8 + WIS) because being able to fly somehow makes you easier to hit??? I get that it's probably more of a tradeoff for being able to fly and the flyby trait but that's already taken into account by being gated behind 9th level and having a smaller damage die on Bestial Strike.
Wildshape AC needs an additional bonus to it. Granted when DEX and CON of your new form get replaced by your WIS modifier it gets fuzzy.
Easiest way to scale it would be 8 + WIS + PB. Then your AC in Wildshape form would range from 10-15 to 16-21. Considering Wildshape doesn't grant any HP buffer this seems fair.
Scaling it on PB brings multiclass dip concerns but at level 1 you only have the Land form without climbing or Multiattack so I wouldn't be too concerned about it, further "You lose access to all your other features" doesn't carry any exception for features from your class and race (which is its own bag of worms).
Generally I definitely agree with others that we could either use some build-a-shape rules or otherwise have more available forms (...which reverting it to beast options in the MM would do pretty well).
Paladins:
I was not expecting Paladins to have access to the full Divine Spell list. Granted it's just 5th level and under... but I assumed school limitations were going to be the norm for non-Wizards, non-Clerics, and non-Druids. They should really revisit the Ranger's spell list limitations if they're just giving Paladins everything. Bards too, but it still makes sense to have some limitations cause the Arcane list is a monster compared to the Divine and Primal lists.
I like the concept of Smite spells being bonus actions spells with a trigger condition, and the only ones retaining concentration are smites with ongoing effects. (Searing smite is an exception)
Aura of Protection, Yurei mentioned earlier that Aura of Protection already didn't stack and that's absolutely correct... however, Aura of Protection used to be just one of like 7 or 8 different Auras a Paladin might have simultaneously. Now Aura of Protection is every aura a Paladin has, all other aura effects are riders on Aura of Protection, including subclass Auras. Still most of those are the same since they're from the Paladin base class however it's the Aura effects of different Paladin subclasses make the choice significant. A creature can only benefit from one. However again... that's a limit on benefits, not detriments. So multiple aura effects that hamper enemies are still fair game.
Abjure Foes... seems pretty dang strong. It's like Hypnotic patterns younger brother except that the Dazed effect always applies even on successful saving throws.
Radiant Strikes is a baby divine smite that's not limited to once per turn. That's hella good.
I find it odd that Lay On Hands condition removal goes from only able to remove Poisoned at level 1 to overnight being able to remove 8 different conditions at level 15. I feel like that's something that should improve more gradually, every couple of levels add a new condition that Lay On Hands can remove for the cost of 5 HP from the pool.
Find Familiar:
I'm of two minds on this one.
On the one hand, this is a massive improvement and a better solution overall power wise for a 1st level spell and unlike Wild Shape's templates I feel like the Otherworldly Familiar template gives us enough to work with for a familiar. For that reason I'm probably going to rate this one highly in the survey. Though the upcasting kind of removes the point of making this a ritual spell as you'd just pick a downtime day to sink your highest level spell slot into a your familiar for the best survivability. (Or you'd eschew that idea and keep it low leveled for versatility of form).
On the other hand I'm indignant about how good this 1st level spell is compared to the Homunculus Servant now. Particularly in customizability. An Artificer Infusion should be generally better than a first level spell. I get that the HS and Artificer in general were pioneering a lot of the design concepts they're trying out in 1D&D now... but each one leaves the Artificer in the dust and I'm not optimistic we'll ever get any updates or clarifications to Artificers in 1D&D. Even if we do, they'll likely be past 2024 at the earliest.
The 1D&D core book will include 4 different subclasses for each class, not just 2 like in the 5e core book. Pretty much every subclass after the core book had alternative uses for Wildshape. Plus, the class should reflect future goals, not just be mirred in the 5e core book mindset.
Yes, its a problem, because those options effectively end at level 2, with only level 18 an exception. Its a problem because its telling any players the class is meant to focus around wildshape, and only to use the other options if you absolutely need them. Its a bad design for anything non-shapeshiftery.
As a personal thought on reflection for what I might do for Moon Druid. Allow them to spend spell slots to add specified augmentation to their forms, like what Circle of the Primeval could do to their Primal Companion. This would allow them to burn their spells, taking away their potential outside of the form, but maximizing what they could be doing with it. As a way to get around the reality of them being a 9th level caster. They shouldn't be able to outright overtake a martial regardless, and I'd hope the design encourages Moon Druids to fight in unconventional, creative ways. To be as versatile and multifaceted as the Moon, as the true theme of the subclass.
I'm playing as a Lizardfolk Wildfire Druid in my first game (we're about through Chapter 4 of Waterdeep Dragon Heist), and a lot of the way I designed that character was based around things that I didn't like about the Wild Shape feature of the class.
I picked Wildfire because it isn't dependent on turning into animals, and I nerfed it even further with the flavor that, as a Lizardfolk, the idea of turning into another creature is really difficult for him to get his head around (like my birds, who treat me as a strangely-shaped bird, or cats, who treat their favorite people like maladjusted cats, his concept of identity is very animalistic). At level 3, he has only just learned to turn into 1) a lizard-- basically himself, but smaller, and 2) a rat, after forming a close bond with some Waterdeep rats.
Aside from the fact that losing Tiny (until level 11, which for me seems forever away) would ruin all of my great rat shenanigans, I think the three stat blocks are very close to being a great change. One of the reasons I didn't like Wildshape to begin with was constant animal-lover quibbles with the stats and abilities assigned to different creatures (cats aren't owl-tier, but they should have darkvision). Adding some customization to the UA charts (maybe some that unlock at higher levels) would take them from blandifying to magical-- you could play fantastical species only known to your strange homeland! You could flavor your changes like a shifter and retain a humanoid body! You could have been raised by a family of animals a la Mowgli and take the form of your family members! You could be a druid who loves birds who now changes into nothing but different birds (cassowaries, penguins, I'm starting to design my next character just thinking about it)!
It's SO CLOSE to being a change I could get excited about, but that additional customizability players are suggesting is really the difference between amazing and awful. Also let me be tiny. Let me be a little guy.
A lot of the general streamlining I like, and I've already been playing with the Find Familiar option from Tasha's (really don't think it's a substitute for being Tiny, mechanically or flavor-wise). Am I correct in noticing that Druids no longer regain both Wild Shape uses after a short rest? Because that is a bit of a bummer, don't really know that this needed to be nerfed. The equipment rules make perfect sense to me. Alternating Forms is cool, but doesn't do much for characters like mine. I'm hoping to see more from future subclasses that branches out the way Spores, Wildfire, and Stars did.
Ok. But lets look at the current 2014 Druid.
Level 1: Spellcasting and Druidic.
Level 2: Wildshape.
Level 18: Timeless Body and Beast Spells.
Level 20: Archdruid. That's all the features there are in the base class outside of the Druid Circles.
Now the UA
Level 1: Spellcasting, Druidic, Channel Nature: Wildshape. (Same as 2014 except Wildshape 1 level earlier)
Level 2: Nature's Aid (Wild Companion *added in Tasha's I think so we already had it, and Healing Blossoms *new feature).
Level 5: Nature's Might (multiattack and climb speed *which you might have had in the 2014 class if the beast had it so kind of a wash).
Level 7: Aquatic Form (2014 added creatures with swim speed at 4th level)
Level 9: Aerial Form (2014 added fly speed at level 8).
Level 11: Tiny Critter (2014 depended on form you took starting at level 2 when you gained WS)
Level 13: Alternating Forms (2014 didn't have comparable feature so a nice quality of life improvement).
Level 15: Wild Resurgence (2014 didn't have comparable feature. I'm not sold on this feature, but it's something for nothing if you were wildshaping anyway).
Level 17: Beast Spells (1 level earlier than 2014 druid and you can cast spells that have M component as long as it's free and not consumed, which was part of 2014 Archdruid ability though the Archdruid 2014 feature gave this option in WS and normal form. But 2014 druid no M spells as part of Beast Spells feature)
Level 18: Archdruid (2014 was level 20 feature. It was more powerful than the UA version)
Level 20: Epic Boon Feat and +2 to one ability score (2014 didn't have comparable feature).
So many of the "new features" were already baked into the cake of the 2014 Wildshape feature. You could turn into an aquatic form as long as it didn't have swim speed sooner (if there were any that fit this description). They are listed as new features, but much of them you could already do.
But overall, the 2014 Druid and the UA Druid have about the same features. The UA added some options (more Channel Nature compared to Wildshapes with the Healing Blossoms added that 2014/Tasha's optional rules didn't have)
EDIT: The 2014 Druid base class was already Wildshape centric.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Thanks, I understand a little more of your point (and Yurei's)
Now, in 5e druids receive this improvements, attached to wildshape:
- 4th: can wildshape into beasts with a swimming speed , and higher CR
- 8th: can wildshape into beasts with flying speed, and higher CR.
(Yes now its later, its happened with all new classes and some features in response to adjusting the level by level table of classes and putting all subclass features at 3, 6, 10, 14th).
Starry Form didnt get any benefits from that either, and uses wildshape as a resource (nor any other subclass except moon druid who superseeded the CR part), so wildshape remained a base class feature, the only thing is of course that now everything uses Channel Nature as the global feature, instead of having 4-5 features each with its own separate uses to track.
Remember that Moon Druid as as subclass expands or extends wildshape as a feature, others expand with options that arent really tied to wildshape, just the reasource.
Healing blossoms is there for everyone to use, not just Circle of Dream druids (that if they redesign and include in PHB it will probably have a different feature or upgrades to Healing Blossom, we dont know). You can still use Wildshape as is and your Balm of the Summer Court feature like before.
As for the new feature Wild Resurgence, why not suggest that its effects apply when you expend channel Nature for Wildshape and other similar options, in order for Starry Form , Wildfire spirit, Symbiotic Entity and the like to trigger its effect? I think is reasonable and on point, just by modifying a little of the language in the feature.