One thing I've found here that is kind of bothering me. Every class, so far, has felt like it has a very distinctive method of getting its abilities. Like, the Cleric. We're told that clerics get their magic specifically from a blessing from a god or some kind of high rank celestial. Paladins forge a tie to the Outer Planes (and thus the Divine power source) via Oaths.
Druids don't have anything. The UA just says, "individual Druids gain their magic from a nature deity, from nature itself, or both." What about their bond to the Inner / Elemental Planes, via the Primal power source? If a Nature god who lives in the Neutral Good planes blesses a druid, why would that not make them a cleric? What is "nature itself?"
I really like the concrete nature of how the cleric and the paladin get their abilities (and how each of the Expert classes' abilities seem related to their Skills). But Druid seems to be just handwaving it away. Which makes me sad.
I mean I am not bothered by this kind of fluff as I generally ignore it in my own games anyway, the paladin at my table his power comes from sheet rage and fury, no god has given it to him. A cleric at another table of mine has her powers come purely from her own immense self belief, she actually hates all the gods and worships none. Another cleric, one I have played, had learnt healing magic like a wizard learns spells. He was a surgeon who wanted to use healing magic and so taught himself. He even had a notebook he listed all his spells in.
I like very broad descriptions about where powers come from because it opens players up to be really creative.
Haravik, look up changes to Unarmed Strike. You can Shove, Grapple or Strike/Damage... basically means as a WS Moon Druid, you can perform the equivalent of a Trip as a Dire wolf or Grapple ( not restrain) as a Constrictor snake. I get the point of it, buts messy
I'm not seeing the issue either. The 2014 druid got zip, zilch, nada that was "non-shapeshiftery" from its base class, until Tasha's came along with the familiar. And this took that and buffed it even further - the familiar lasts all day at level 2, and the healing blossoms are net new. At worst, non-shapeshiftery druids are no worse off, and in most cases I'd say they're clearly doing better.
I think a lot of the issue is that the shapeshifting on the 2014 druid was clearly useful, so even if it wasn't something you terribly wanted, at least it didn't feel bad.
Exactly. It's like, say, eating at a restaurant and saying "you do great meats, but I think your veggies could be better", then coming back next time to find that in response the meats have been all but removed from the menu and the veggies are...pretty much the same as before and being asking if your opinion has improved.
But it’s more like eating at a restaurant and they have 5 meat dishes 5 veggie dishes and the next time they still have 5 meat dishes and 5 veggie dishes, but with different recipes and saying “this restaurant has turned too meat focused! what about us veggie lovers who get screwed over?”
Not really. They've made Wildshaping substantially worse, while not really doing anything to make non-Wildshaping Druids any better. My analogy is much better.
If they were nerfing Wildshaping to allow them to make other Druid traits better while not increasing overall power, I'd be more ambivalent. They haven't, they've just made one aspect worse and somehow that is meant to make non-Wildshaping Druids more attractive. They've screwed the meat parts of the dish while ignoring the criticism of the veggies.
To the bolded, I never said they made wildshape better. My point was to those saying they focused too much on WS in the UA leaving others in the dust. Druids have always been WS focused in 5E (the base class without subclass). The 2014 Druid had spellcasting and WS. With features at 4, 8, 18, and 20 basically all but timeless body focused on WS. The UA is the same, but worse, with Tasha’s Wild Companion and Healing Blossoms added on.
I never said you did. You "corrected" my analogy to imply that we got more or less the same Druid we got in 5e. We didn't. Wildshaping is just worse now. The design objective was that those who who wanted Druids who were.more nature casters, rather than centered around WS, could also be viable, except they didn't really do anything for non-WS centered Druids while just nerfing WS. That's why your "corrected" analogy is wrong and why many people don't like the UA Druid.
Everything else for the Druid comes from subclasses. And we will see what they do in future UA’s.
We can see one Circle already. Granted, it's the WS centered one (assuming there'll be a similar setup as 5e where Moon is the WS Circle, then the others will depart from that focus to varying degrees). Potentially the statblock in early levels are better (I don't have the time to analyse it), getting the extra damage (which will often be negated due to the 5e WS forms potentially scaling in damage too) at level 10 and being able to cast abjuration spells, not great compared to its losses. No ability to become an elemental, plus the substantial nerfs to WS itself - no effectively additional HP (the big one), fewer transformations per day, much less versatility in what abilities you can gain and what creatures you can be mechanically (and even flavour-wise until towards the end of most campaigns).
They've nerfed Wildshape and the subclass we have shows that they're not really intending to make back the power via subclasses - if that were the case, they could have really ramped up WS again with the Moon subclass and made it on a par again with 5e (or close to it). They didn't, and I don't see any evidence that it's for better caster Druids - they could have included better support for them in the base class to fill the void left by the WS nerf (which would have allowed Moons to retain power, albeit in a different way), but didn't. They've nerfed the base Druid class and made alterations to the subclass that make it different, but I wouldn't say better. As the things stand, it's just a general nerf, with little indication that there is intention to make it back in other ways.
Edit: and what non-WS druids are we talking about?
I believe that's been answered.
I think we might be arguing different points and probably because I’m not stating my opinion coherently.
First, I agree that the UA wildshape is worse than the 5E version. It needs work.
Second, I agree that they failed to do anything substantive for non -WS focused with the exception of making official (not optional rule) using WS for summoning a familiar (which this version is better in some ways than the Tasha’s version, if I remember it correctly) and Healing Blossoms. Wether that ability is good or not, it’s playtest so can change based on feedback. So two new things that the 2014 PHB Druid didn’t have. Could non-WS druids use more, absolutely.
Third, ignore the templates themselves. You have the WS feature at level one. You get an improvement at level 7 for swim speed and an improvement at level 9 for flying speed. Both 2014 and UA get this, but in different ways and different levels (again, the UA version is worse, but that wasn’t my point) You get to cast spells in WS at 18 and Archdruid feature.
The bare bones of the UA look similar to the 2014 version. Neither of them do a damn thing to improve the non-WS Druid in any way. Tasha’s tried with Wild Companion and the UA is doing the same with Find Familiar and Healing Blossoms.
Im not saying the Ua is good by any means. Just that the UA as a skeleton looks basically the same as the 2014 version, just worse. And that’s what the playtest is for
I'm not seeing the issue either. The 2014 druid got zip, zilch, nada that was "non-shapeshiftery" from its base class, until Tasha's came along with the familiar. And this took that and buffed it even further - the familiar lasts all day at level 2, and the healing blossoms are net new. At worst, non-shapeshiftery druids are no worse off, and in most cases I'd say they're clearly doing better.
I think a lot of the issue is that the shapeshifting on the 2014 druid was clearly useful, so even if it wasn't something you terribly wanted, at least it didn't feel bad.
Exactly. It's like, say, eating at a restaurant and saying "you do great meats, but I think your veggies could be better", then coming back next time to find that in response the meats have been all but removed from the menu and the veggies are...pretty much the same as before and being asking if your opinion has improved.
But it’s more like eating at a restaurant and they have 5 meat dishes 5 veggie dishes and the next time they still have 5 meat dishes and 5 veggie dishes, but with different recipes and saying “this restaurant has turned too meat focused! what about us veggie lovers who get screwed over?”
Not really. They've made Wildshaping substantially worse, while not really doing anything to make non-Wildshaping Druids any better. My analogy is much better.
If they were nerfing Wildshaping to allow them to make other Druid traits better while not increasing overall power, I'd be more ambivalent. They haven't, they've just made one aspect worse and somehow that is meant to make non-Wildshaping Druids more attractive. They've screwed the meat parts of the dish while ignoring the criticism of the veggies.
To the bolded, I never said they made wildshape better. My point was to those saying they focused too much on WS in the UA leaving others in the dust. Druids have always been WS focused in 5E (the base class without subclass). The 2014 Druid had spellcasting and WS. With features at 4, 8, 18, and 20 basically all but timeless body focused on WS. The UA is the same, but worse, with Tasha’s Wild Companion and Healing Blossoms added on.
I never said you did. You "corrected" my analogy to imply that we got more or less the same Druid we got in 5e. We didn't. Wildshaping is just worse now. The design objective was that those who who wanted Druids who were.more nature casters, rather than centered around WS, could also be viable, except they didn't really do anything for non-WS centered Druids while just nerfing WS. That's why your "corrected" analogy is wrong and why many people don't like the UA Druid.
Everything else for the Druid comes from subclasses. And we will see what they do in future UA’s.
We can see one Circle already. Granted, it's the WS centered one (assuming there'll be a similar setup as 5e where Moon is the WS Circle, then the others will depart from that focus to varying degrees). Potentially the statblock in early levels are better (I don't have the time to analyse it), getting the extra damage (which will often be negated due to the 5e WS forms potentially scaling in damage too) at level 10 and being able to cast abjuration spells, not great compared to its losses. No ability to become an elemental, plus the substantial nerfs to WS itself - no effectively additional HP (the big one), fewer transformations per day, much less versatility in what abilities you can gain and what creatures you can be mechanically (and even flavour-wise until towards the end of most campaigns).
They've nerfed Wildshape and the subclass we have shows that they're not really intending to make back the power via subclasses - if that were the case, they could have really ramped up WS again with the Moon subclass and made it on a par again with 5e (or close to it). They didn't, and I don't see any evidence that it's for better caster Druids - they could have included better support for them in the base class to fill the void left by the WS nerf (which would have allowed Moons to retain power, albeit in a different way), but didn't. They've nerfed the base Druid class and made alterations to the subclass that make it different, but I wouldn't say better. As the things stand, it's just a general nerf, with little indication that there is intention to make it back in other ways.
Edit: and what non-WS druids are we talking about?
I believe that's been answered.
I think we might be arguing different points and probably because I’m not stating my opinion coherently.
First, I agree that the UA wildshape is worse than the 5E version. It needs work.
Second, I agree that they failed to do anything substantive for non -WS focused with the exception of making official (not optional rule) using WS for summoning a familiar (which this version is better in some ways than the Tasha’s version, if I remember it correctly) and Healing Blossoms. Wether that ability is good or not, it’s playtest so can change based on feedback. So two new things that the 2014 PHB Druid didn’t have. Could non-WS druids use more, absolutely.
Third, ignore the templates themselves. You have the WS feature at level one. You get an improvement at level 7 for swim speed and an improvement at level 9 for flying speed. Both 2014 and UA get this, but in different ways and different levels (again, the UA version is worse, but that wasn’t my point) You get to cast spells in WS at 18 and Archdruid feature.
The bare bones of the UA look similar to the 2014 version. Neither of them do a damn thing to improve the non-WS Druid in any way. Tasha’s tried with Wild Companion and the UA is doing the same with Find Familiar and Healing Blossoms.
Im not saying the Ua is good by any means. Just that the UA as a skeleton looks basically the same as the 2014 version, just worse. And that’s what the playtest is for
Ok, agreed. I think I was interpreting what you were saying in light of your original post, rather than taking the reexplaination by itself, but yeah, I agree, it's nothing really new, just a worse version.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Now tell me, what can anyone use the new UA wildshape form?
Small sized animals for social advantage? 2 foot long Maine coon cat and just about any dog could easily be shape shifters into. Not quite the same as being Tiny, but it's similar.
Exploration abilities? You can roll Wisdom in place of Dexterity or Strength, so you actually have good Athletics, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand and Stealth checks (assuming you have the skills). You also get advantage on Perception checks.
Land form has 40 speed, 10 more than average. Last I checked, you still can climb at half speed from level 1.
Moving Tiny forms to 11 is a nerf, but it's not like the current forms can't explore well. Just not as well as someone with Expertise. Which... Is fair.
The Circle of Spores Symbiotic Entity grants temp HP at 4 per druid level. That seems like a reasonable amount. SE grants some extra damage while Moon Druid gets boosted damage too, seems fairly equivalent. I haven't broken it all down but comparing and balancing Spores and Moon sounds like a good way to modify Moon druid.
Maybe also create an abjuration spell that lets the moon druid reup temp HP while still in WS?
Now tell me, what can anyone use the new UA wildshape form?
Small sized animals for social advantage? 2 foot long Maine coon cat and just about any dog could easily be shape shifters into. Not quite the same as being Tiny, but it's similar.
Exploration abilities? You can roll Wisdom in place of Dexterity or Strength, so you actually have good Athletics, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand and Stealth checks (assuming you have the skills). You also get advantage on Perception checks.
Land form has 40 speed, 10 more than average. Last I checked, you still can climb at half speed from level 1.
Moving Tiny forms to 11 is a nerf, but it's not like the current forms can't explore well. Just not as well as someone with Expertise. Which... Is fair.
Except you don't keep any of your proficiencies in WS any more so you're often better off using your own Perception than the Keen senses (also means you can't even use the Help action in WS outside of combat with the new Help action rules). Since druids only get Light armour proficiency they will all try to get at least +2 Dex and often +3 which means again you are better off as yourself for Stealth checks since you'll probably have proficiency it them. Sleight on Hand is hard to do without hands so no benefit to WS there. Athletics if you don't have proficiency (though since Outlander give proficiency in Athletics a lot of druids do have it) will get a boost, and maybe you'll see +1 or +2 bonus to Acrobatics. However since you lose the benefits of all of your items simply having a Stone of Good Luck wipes out those meager benefits.
Climbing WS isn't until level 4, and only increases your speed at climbing it doesn't give you the ability to climb on any new surfaces (unlike Spider Climb from spider forms in 5e which are available from level 1).
Haravik, look up changes to Unarmed Strike. You can Shove, Grapple or Strike/Damage... basically means as a WS Moon Druid, you can perform the equivalent of a Trip as a Dire wolf or Grapple ( not restrain) as a Constrictor snake. I get the point of it, buts messy
The BA unarmed strike is crazy confusing, and if you didn't die immediately upon WS b/c you AC is trash and you have no bonus to you squishy d8 hit points then the grapple / shove as a BA would be good. But as it is, grappling is a horrible idea in WS b/c it just ensures the enemy kills you.
The land form, in many respects, is what’s the point? If I want to use it in combat I would probably be better off casting shillelagh. Same damage as the land form and I probably have a better AC with armor and shield. And I can continue to cast spells. Utility is the answer and it is lacking in the UA. I like being able to shift to a rat or spider to get in tight places. Not every party has a rogue. Waiting until later levels just to be tiny, and only for 10 minutes and then one use of your WS is wasted, is part of the problem.
I don't think you do lose skills known. You keep languages known. You keep mental scores. Nothing is there to comment about tool or skill proficiency. Just tool usability is determined by form.
It'd be one thing if it said you lose skills proficiency, but it doesn't. It doesn't speak of saving throws either. It really doesn't make sense that a druid would suddenly lose Nature or Wisdom saving throws proficiency, would it?
I'm reading this as not making your character sheet disappear and replacing it wholesale, but changing certain parts of the sheet.
So when people are talking about Wild shape being worse, they are really talking about Circle of the Moon being worse, as it no longer gives you overpowered forms like it did in 5E. For all other subclasses, wild shape was worse than what we are seeing in this UA for combat. Moon druid clearly got nerfed and the nerf goes too far without giving them more resilience to make up for HP loss, also the Bonus Action unarmed attack needs to be more clear if that is something that applies while wild shaped, if it doesn't, then the wild shape needs a slight damage bonus for moon druid too... can be achieved a few different ways.
Wrong! The UA Wildshape is much, much, much worse for non-Moon Druids as well. To be honest, I would prefer they go back to 5e Wildshape and remove Moon Druid entirely, than the current UA druid. Baseline Wildshape (non-Moon Druid) offered so much utility for exploration, RP, and creative play - Druids almost always dump Cha so it was very common for my druid players to use WS in social situations becoming a cute cat, a friendly puppy a cheeky parrot to befriend others, or using rat or bird forms to spy on people. Alternatively, becoming a rat inside the pocket of the rogue when they go scouting give the rogue a backup if they get stuck, and an emergency healer in case they trigger a trap, or someone who can escape and go get the rest of the party if the rogue gets spotted and captured. Druids also almost always dump Strength, turning into a black bear or a draft horse can let them help out with Strength-based tasks, sure they probably aren't as good as the Barbarian but if Barb rolls a 1, the druid can sub in to give the party a second shot. Finally there is so many creative uses of the unique characteristics of different animals - low CR Spider forms give you blindsight to lead the party through magical darkness or other obscurement, and spider climb to let you climb up to a trap door in the ceiling, or to scale a vertical cliff with ease. Giant Badger is another massively useful form that is now just gone - burrow speed can let you dig a tunnel under the BBEG's fortress walls, or dig a burrow for the party to sleep in comfortably, or dig an escape route out of the bandit's lair.
Now tell me, what can anyone use the new UA wildshape form? it is completely useless in combat because you do better damage with spells and you will be killed if you try to take the WS into melee (AC 13-15, d8 hit die, 0 defensive abilities or spells), and it's only exploration feature is Darkvision. Wild Companion is now your utility use of Channel Nature, and the Blooms is your combat use. The UA wildshape isn't useful for anything, for anyone.
Moon Druid needs more help with health/AC for sure. Most scouting can now be covered by a familiar, yes, not the best fix but it's still very nature based and inline thematically for Druid. You can still wild shape into a cat just a small one instead of a tiny one, so a Ragdoll or Maine Coon. I do think the tiny restriction is a little crazy, I would definitely like to see that removed, just incurring half-damage inflicted on others while tiny.
Giant badgers do not create tunnels, they can burrow yes, but they do not leave tunnels, compare it to Purple Worm which does have tunnels. So that was already homebrew to begin with, admittedly there is a loss of Burrow speed yes, which at least let the Druid get around. Granted.
Did you read the stat block of Animal of the Land? Those replace their STR with the druid's WIS, so that really isn't much different at all. Sure Giant Spider loses spider climb, but Animal of the Land still gets a climb speed at level 5, so while it isn't as perfect it's still good for a lot of climbing situations.
My original point however was for combat, I am not arguing that there isn't some utility loss, but the previous comment started about people talking about tanking creatures, which is mainly what I was following on from with regards to that. While utility was also noted, I did specify combat. So this is a tangent to that.
To be fair, Land Druids were well known for using Wildshape to turn into mice or birds and go out scouting, so its use as an exploration power was something people enjoyed. The 1d&d version got rid of the exploration potential until much higher level.
Which, okay, maybe it was stepping on the Expert classes' toes when it came to their roles as better scouts. So, I suppose you could argue that its still overpowered forms. But just making the point that its not all about combat power.
Mice sure, birds, not by much, since needed level 8 to get a flying speed to begin with in 5E. For now, it is replaced by the find familiar, which admittedly isn't the exact same thing but still possible using a charge. If anything, it's less risk since a killed familiar just dissipates tho a familiar being fey probably does stand out slightly more, still it's got flight from level 2.
I don't think you do lose skills known. You keep languages known. You keep mental scores. Nothing is there to comment about tool or skill proficiency. Just tool usability is determined by form.
It'd be one thing if it said you lose skills proficiency, but it doesn't. It doesn't speak of saving throws either. It really doesn't make sense that a druid would suddenly lose Nature or Wisdom saving throws proficiency, would it?
I'm reading this as not making your character sheet disappear and replacing it wholesale, but changing certain parts of the sheet.
It's possible they intended you to retain things like proficiencies but that's currently unclear. If so the wording absolutely should mention those things specifically. "All other features" is kind of vague if we're meant to discern something like a Skill Proficiency as something distinct from a "feature" while also not counting as a "game statistic."
My original point however was for combat, I am not arguing that there isn't some utility loss, but the previous comment started about people talking about tanking creatures, which is mainly what I was following on from with regards to that. While utility was also noted, I did specify combat. So this is a tangent to that.
Yes, but you claimed that the new WS was usable in combat. It's suicide in combat.
I don't think the new wildshape is worse than the old one, for moon druids, sure it is worse but for druid in general, it is a simplification. The only part that is a definite downgrade is not replacing your HP with the beasts, but I believe this can be resolved with granting temp HP and perhaps adding some type of druid armour which transforms with you to act like barding for a bit more AC. I am also not entirely convinced by tiny forms being locked out til later levels either, I suppose it is to stop players turning into things small enough to crawl through locks or other similar gaps at low levels.
As the new WS is, even for non-Moon-druids, clearly inferior in all roles other than combat, I can only conclude that you were talking about combat.
I don't think the new wildshape is worse than the old one, for moon druids, sure it is worse but for druid in general, it is a simplification. The only part that is a definite downgrade is not replacing your HP with the beasts, but I believe this can be resolved with granting temp HP and perhaps adding some type of druid armour which transforms with you to act like barding for a bit more AC. I am also not entirely convinced by tiny forms being locked out til later levels either, I suppose it is to stop players turning into things small enough to crawl through locks or other similar gaps at low levels.
As the new WS is, even for non-Moon-druids, clearly inferior in all roles other than combat, I can only conclude that you were talking about combat.
Saying it's better, is not the same thing as saying it's usable, you're making jumps in logic and that's on you, don't strawman me by making a claim that I didn't make.
Yes, in combat it is better, since the new forms do actual damage now but I did not say that they are usable, they aren't, it's still edge case in usefulness. It is a move in the right direction for combat, but there is still more that needs to be done, as you can even see, I said it needs something like temp HP and armor that can act as Barding to increase AC.
Everybody is talking about Druid, but nobody is talking about how cool the new Epic Boons are. They really feel epic, like things that you won't be able to get anywhere else. No other feature in the game is ever going to let you have a 25% chance to just not expend a spell slot.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Everybody is talking about Druid, but nobody is talking about how cool the new Epic Boons are. They really feel epic, like things that you won't be able to get anywhere else. No other feature in the game is ever going to let you have a 25% chance to just not expend a spell slot.
Negative topics tend to attract more discussion. Like... there was a lot of talk about the early Epic Boons mostly because they largely felt so inconsequential. Now that they're presenting Epic Boons that are actually, y'know... "epic", the generally response is to mostly just go, "Oh cool. Anyway, here's why Druids suck..."
Reducing smites to once per round may necessary to reduce power creep, I don't know yet. Expanding smites to include unarmed strikes and ranged weapons is not the right answer. Paladins are melee fighter. They shouldn’t be better "smite infused" ranged archers than rangers though, or better or better "smite fueled" grapplers than barbarians. You make all the classes worse by making them more vanilla. They’re trying to discourage multi-classing. Leave the flavor in the class. Lean into it. Embrace it. The races/species are levelling enough.
Paladins will soon fall behind in their marshal abilities once WotC releases the Warrior class capabilities. They are meant to be different. So smites should be better, but not at the expense of the flavor of the other classes. Eliminate the concentration on the spell smites so the paladin can lean more into the divine side and maintain concentration on other spells. Otherwise, if you want a clearer differentiation between paladin and cleric, boost their martial capabilities in concert with the warrior class abilities once released.
Everybody is talking about Druid, but nobody is talking about how cool the new Epic Boons are. They really feel epic, like things that you won't be able to get anywhere else. No other feature in the game is ever going to let you have a 25% chance to just not expend a spell slot.
Negative topics tend to attract more discussion. Like... there was a lot of talk about the early Epic Boons mostly because they largely felt so inconsequential. Now that they're presenting Epic Boons that are actually, y'know... "epic", the generally response is to mostly just go, "Oh cool. Anyway, here's why Druids suck..."
The thing is though... I still don't find Epic Boons that amazing. Sure +2 to your primary attribute is nice, but that's equivalent to a +1 rod of the pact keeper for every class - an uncommon item. There is nothing really "wow" about that, it's just an incremental increase to your stats, not really significantly different from any other ASI. Really the new Epic Boons just feel like a pretty standard feat, good definitely but not something that feels like the culmination of 2+ years of playing a game together. There are plenty of Very Rare magic items I'd be more excited about than one of the Epic Boons.
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I mean I am not bothered by this kind of fluff as I generally ignore it in my own games anyway, the paladin at my table his power comes from sheet rage and fury, no god has given it to him. A cleric at another table of mine has her powers come purely from her own immense self belief, she actually hates all the gods and worships none. Another cleric, one I have played, had learnt healing magic like a wizard learns spells. He was a surgeon who wanted to use healing magic and so taught himself. He even had a notebook he listed all his spells in.
I like very broad descriptions about where powers come from because it opens players up to be really creative.
Haravik, look up changes to Unarmed Strike. You can Shove, Grapple or Strike/Damage... basically means as a WS Moon Druid, you can perform the equivalent of a Trip as a Dire wolf or Grapple ( not restrain) as a Constrictor snake. I get the point of it, buts messy
I think we might be arguing different points and probably because I’m not stating my opinion coherently.
First, I agree that the UA wildshape is worse than the 5E version. It needs work.
Second, I agree that they failed to do anything substantive for non -WS focused with the exception of making official (not optional rule) using WS for summoning a familiar (which this version is better in some ways than the Tasha’s version, if I remember it correctly) and Healing Blossoms. Wether that ability is good or not, it’s playtest so can change based on feedback. So two new things that the 2014 PHB Druid didn’t have. Could non-WS druids use more, absolutely.
Third, ignore the templates themselves. You have the WS feature at level one. You get an improvement at level 7 for swim speed and an improvement at level 9 for flying speed. Both 2014 and UA get this, but in different ways and different levels (again, the UA version is worse, but that wasn’t my point) You get to cast spells in WS at 18 and Archdruid feature.
The bare bones of the UA look similar to the 2014 version. Neither of them do a damn thing to improve the non-WS Druid in any way. Tasha’s tried with Wild Companion and the UA is doing the same with Find Familiar and Healing Blossoms.
Im not saying the Ua is good by any means. Just that the UA as a skeleton looks basically the same as the 2014 version, just worse. And that’s what the playtest is for
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Ok, agreed. I think I was interpreting what you were saying in light of your original post, rather than taking the reexplaination by itself, but yeah, I agree, it's nothing really new, just a worse version.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Exploration abilities? You can roll Wisdom in place of Dexterity or Strength, so you actually have good Athletics, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand and Stealth checks (assuming you have the skills). You also get advantage on Perception checks.
Land form has 40 speed, 10 more than average. Last I checked, you still can climb at half speed from level 1.
Moving Tiny forms to 11 is a nerf, but it's not like the current forms can't explore well. Just not as well as someone with Expertise. Which... Is fair.
The Circle of Spores Symbiotic Entity grants temp HP at 4 per druid level. That seems like a reasonable amount. SE grants some extra damage while Moon Druid gets boosted damage too, seems fairly equivalent. I haven't broken it all down but comparing and balancing Spores and Moon sounds like a good way to modify Moon druid.
Maybe also create an abjuration spell that lets the moon druid reup temp HP while still in WS?
Except you don't keep any of your proficiencies in WS any more so you're often better off using your own Perception than the Keen senses (also means you can't even use the Help action in WS outside of combat with the new Help action rules). Since druids only get Light armour proficiency they will all try to get at least +2 Dex and often +3 which means again you are better off as yourself for Stealth checks since you'll probably have proficiency it them. Sleight on Hand is hard to do without hands so no benefit to WS there. Athletics if you don't have proficiency (though since Outlander give proficiency in Athletics a lot of druids do have it) will get a boost, and maybe you'll see +1 or +2 bonus to Acrobatics. However since you lose the benefits of all of your items simply having a Stone of Good Luck wipes out those meager benefits.
Climbing WS isn't until level 4, and only increases your speed at climbing it doesn't give you the ability to climb on any new surfaces (unlike Spider Climb from spider forms in 5e which are available from level 1).
The BA unarmed strike is crazy confusing, and if you didn't die immediately upon WS b/c you AC is trash and you have no bonus to you squishy d8 hit points then the grapple / shove as a BA would be good. But as it is, grappling is a horrible idea in WS b/c it just ensures the enemy kills you.
The land form, in many respects, is what’s the point? If I want to use it in combat I would probably be better off casting shillelagh. Same damage as the land form and I probably have a better AC with armor and shield. And I can continue to cast spells. Utility is the answer and it is lacking in the UA. I like being able to shift to a rat or spider to get in tight places. Not every party has a rogue. Waiting until later levels just to be tiny, and only for 10 minutes and then one use of your WS is wasted, is part of the problem.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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I don't think you do lose skills known. You keep languages known. You keep mental scores. Nothing is there to comment about tool or skill proficiency. Just tool usability is determined by form.
It'd be one thing if it said you lose skills proficiency, but it doesn't. It doesn't speak of saving throws either. It really doesn't make sense that a druid would suddenly lose Nature or Wisdom saving throws proficiency, would it?
I'm reading this as not making your character sheet disappear and replacing it wholesale, but changing certain parts of the sheet.
Moon Druid needs more help with health/AC for sure. Most scouting can now be covered by a familiar, yes, not the best fix but it's still very nature based and inline thematically for Druid. You can still wild shape into a cat just a small one instead of a tiny one, so a Ragdoll or Maine Coon. I do think the tiny restriction is a little crazy, I would definitely like to see that removed, just incurring half-damage inflicted on others while tiny.
Giant badgers do not create tunnels, they can burrow yes, but they do not leave tunnels, compare it to Purple Worm which does have tunnels. So that was already homebrew to begin with, admittedly there is a loss of Burrow speed yes, which at least let the Druid get around. Granted.
Did you read the stat block of Animal of the Land? Those replace their STR with the druid's WIS, so that really isn't much different at all. Sure Giant Spider loses spider climb, but Animal of the Land still gets a climb speed at level 5, so while it isn't as perfect it's still good for a lot of climbing situations.
My original point however was for combat, I am not arguing that there isn't some utility loss, but the previous comment started about people talking about tanking creatures, which is mainly what I was following on from with regards to that. While utility was also noted, I did specify combat. So this is a tangent to that.
Mice sure, birds, not by much, since needed level 8 to get a flying speed to begin with in 5E. For now, it is replaced by the find familiar, which admittedly isn't the exact same thing but still possible using a charge. If anything, it's less risk since a killed familiar just dissipates tho a familiar being fey probably does stand out slightly more, still it's got flight from level 2.
It's possible they intended you to retain things like proficiencies but that's currently unclear. If so the wording absolutely should mention those things specifically. "All other features" is kind of vague if we're meant to discern something like a Skill Proficiency as something distinct from a "feature" while also not counting as a "game statistic."
Yes, but you claimed that the new WS was usable in combat. It's suicide in combat.
Please quote exactly where I said that.
You claimed
As the new WS is, even for non-Moon-druids, clearly inferior in all roles other than combat, I can only conclude that you were talking about combat.
Saying it's better, is not the same thing as saying it's usable, you're making jumps in logic and that's on you, don't strawman me by making a claim that I didn't make.
Yes, in combat it is better, since the new forms do actual damage now but I did not say that they are usable, they aren't, it's still edge case in usefulness. It is a move in the right direction for combat, but there is still more that needs to be done, as you can even see, I said it needs something like temp HP and armor that can act as Barding to increase AC.
Everybody is talking about Druid, but nobody is talking about how cool the new Epic Boons are. They really feel epic, like things that you won't be able to get anywhere else. No other feature in the game is ever going to let you have a 25% chance to just not expend a spell slot.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Negative topics tend to attract more discussion. Like... there was a lot of talk about the early Epic Boons mostly because they largely felt so inconsequential. Now that they're presenting Epic Boons that are actually, y'know... "epic", the generally response is to mostly just go, "Oh cool. Anyway, here's why Druids suck..."
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Paladin Smites
Reducing smites to once per round may necessary to reduce power creep, I don't know yet. Expanding smites to include unarmed strikes and ranged weapons is not the right answer. Paladins are melee fighter. They shouldn’t be better "smite infused" ranged archers than rangers though, or better or better "smite fueled" grapplers than barbarians. You make all the classes worse by making them more vanilla. They’re trying to discourage multi-classing. Leave the flavor in the class. Lean into it. Embrace it. The races/species are levelling enough.
Paladins will soon fall behind in their marshal abilities once WotC releases the Warrior class capabilities. They are meant to be different. So smites should be better, but not at the expense of the flavor of the other classes. Eliminate the concentration on the spell smites so the paladin can lean more into the divine side and maintain concentration on other spells. Otherwise, if you want a clearer differentiation between paladin and cleric, boost their martial capabilities in concert with the warrior class abilities once released.
The thing is though... I still don't find Epic Boons that amazing. Sure +2 to your primary attribute is nice, but that's equivalent to a +1 rod of the pact keeper for every class - an uncommon item. There is nothing really "wow" about that, it's just an incremental increase to your stats, not really significantly different from any other ASI. Really the new Epic Boons just feel like a pretty standard feat, good definitely but not something that feels like the culmination of 2+ years of playing a game together. There are plenty of Very Rare magic items I'd be more excited about than one of the Epic Boons.