Another question, will this change to wild shape become the model for Polymorph? A set of fixed stat blocks the caster picks from? If you are going to nerf wildshape to stop the hitpoints sink then logic dictates wizards should also nerf Polymorph where someone can turn into a dragon.
I would value some clarity around the differences or uniqueness of Paladins and Clerics, which I had from 1e to 5e - always seems like a fuzzy overlap. I wonder about having the Smite spells available to Priests; I liked when they were unique to Paladins. I do not have a good answer that is simple and clear. My best suggestion is the word complement - design the two classes to work holistically with some lower overlap, able to do more together than they can individually.
Also, if a Paladin is in the priest class group and has some commonality with a Warrior, what would be the equivalent in the mage class group?
Another question, will this change to wild shape become the model for Polymorph? A set of fixed stat blocks the caster picks from? If you are going to nerf wildshape to stop the hitpoints sink then logic dictates wizards should also nerf Polymorph where someone can turn into a dragon.
I'm not sure, it would balance it when used on voluntary creatures but it would make it stronger when used against a enemy. Though they may go the save every round route as well with it. Still turning a fearsome enemy into a 13 AC crap attack being who keeps its own HP would be pretty powerful. Its would still be far more powerful than the 1D&D banishment even if it has a save every round like banishment.
Right now Moon Druid is an absued broken cluster**** of too many good things.
I guess I'd like to know more about why you think this. (Not attacking you, I've just never seen the sub-class come even remotely close to being broken.)
and I guess I'll qualify that further to ask if it's ever overpowered in Tiers 1 & 2. Because I've seen it be impressive at, say, 4th level. One level later, they just kind of blend into the rest of the party, and only get worse from there.
Broken doesnt mean always its overpowered. Broken can literraly mean "not well working", "Not working as intended" and it all comes down to the point your GM saying "This okay and allowed, nope this goes too far".
YES, Moon Druid on its own loses from levels 7 - 9 and from 12 -19. Level 2 / 6 are very strong for CR 1 or CR 2 (Dinosaurs) wildshapes on level 10 you gain the elemental forms to use and as i mentioned at level 20 you become a Mammoth on every single turn for 120 HP with a massive to hit. Even Zariels single target Damage round in a 1v1 is not enough to bring this Character down, escpecially if you maintain concentration on a high level healing spirit (resilient con combined with the 21 Con of the Mammoth, if you can take Warcaster you are even better in concentrating while Zariel hits for 30-40 damage. But the mess begins at the moment you throw in every other class feature and racial feature to use.
That's fair; thank you for providing those! (They sound fun, actually!)
No matter the definition of "broken" we want to use, I think "problematic" is maybe a more appropriate term. I really believe the current wildshape in general--and Moon subclass specifically-- is not widely problematic (especially at the tiers people spend most of their time playing) because of the reasons you pointed out: DM has many specific ways to clamp down. Heck, if you had my GM, he severely limited which animals my druid had seen (and thus limited how many shapes I got to choose from).
And that's why I conclude that losing all of the various abilities of all the lower-CR animals as well as the extra hp all make the proposed changes to wildshape utterly ridiculous. Especially given how the whole goal was to make the druid more fun to play for people who already loved playing it. The creativity in part came from finding the specific form that would most help in a given situation. gaining access to powerful utility abilities at low levels. All of that stuff really makes the druid feel like it had a niche, like it was something special. I intend to tell WOTC exactly that.
I honestly think they could keep the templates if they wanted to. Maybe that would help newer players understand what they can do. But bring back the extra hp and give access to at least all the CR 1/4 and lower beasts. Maybe that's just making it too complex again, I dunno.
so my 'fix' for the ua stuff without going too far from the design of the ua would be change the 3 stat blocks to the primal beast stat blocks for the ranger and use the wisdom modifier instead of proficiency bonus include the level 5 feature of multiattack (but maybe the unarmed bonus attack that seemed kindda odd) allow the land form to choose burrow or climb and allow to keep class and feat features (guess racial features might be bit complicated for some) also allow tiny from the start as that makes no sense. maybe replace the tiny feature for a feature that grants either blindsight or tremor sense (choose when ws). in regards to hp 5+5*wis mod as standard or 5+5*druid level (which ever is highest) for moon druid.
I would value some clarity around the differences or uniqueness of Paladins and Clerics, which I had from 1e to 5e - always seems like a fuzzy overlap. I wonder about having the Smite spells available to Priests; I liked when they were unique to Paladins. I do not have a good answer that is simple and clear. My best suggestion is the word complement - design the two classes to work holistically with some lower overlap, able to do more together than they can individually.
Also, if a Paladin is in the priest class group and has some commonality with a Warrior, what would be the equivalent in the mage class group?
Warlock. Warlock has always been an Arcane caster that plays more like a Warrior than like a caster. Only difference is instead of using a weapon Warlocks use Eldritch Blast to "Attack". Consider if you simply reflavour EB as a magical bow and arrow, there is very little to distinguish them from a 5e Ranger (at least at lower levels), both use a BA spell to tag one enemy to get extra damage on each ranged attack they make against that enemy, and then make a series of attacks where with [DEX/CHA] for attack and damage rolls.
Why all the healing for Druid in their class abilities. They are the terrain controls and (with Wild Shape) PSudo-tanks.
Replace healing Gloom with create an area of difficult terrain.
Wild Shape is mot the druid taking on the Shape of an animal NOT becoming an animal. They use their stats, HP, Proficiencies and do not get the abilities associated with animals. (No tunneling for moles, webs for spiders Ink for octopuses)
SO now Paladins are in the back smiting with a bow and casting damaging Cantrips from the back,
Why the steed as a part of the core class. replace it and give Steed to the Cavalier.
IS every class going to have healing in their class features? Even if the class itself is not "the" healer.
My point was that being a healer has always been a part of the class identity, and since their- presently extremely poorly executed- idea is to give the Druid some early class features besides spellcasting besides Wildshape, they included a healing feature. I expect most subclasses will have alternative uses for Channel Nature, the same way Cleric and Paladins do, so if you don't like the healing one, just don't use it.
I'm fine with having a healing trick for Channel Nature for those who want to focus on being a druidic healer. That said, I think some way to use it to create Difficult Terrain or maybe summon roots to initiate a spell save grapple with a single target would make Channel Nature more versatile and give druids who want to lean more into the plant manipulation/elemental control specialist more tools to play with.
That way druids who want an animal speaker theme could use it for Summon Familiar, druids who want an animal shapeshifter theme can use it for Wildshape, druids who want a healer theme could use it for Bloom, and druids who want the plant wizard theme could use it for Root.
Have there been classes that got terrain affecting features? From my first blush recollections, that's usually been the province of spells on the player end.
I really wish people would take the time to look at the 5e Druid and make comparisons and not just make wildly outrageous claims. Let me lay out the truth and then we can align to get the fixes we would like to see.
1dnd Druid is not more Wildshape focused than 5e Druid. They are literally equally focused on Wildshape.
The new CN feature that allows you to heal is completely optional in use. It uses the same resource as WS so it’s meant as an option not to force druids to be healers.
They have been moving away from giving players access to MM stat blocks for a while now. The 1dnd conjuration spells will all likely have their own individual stat blocks as well.
The 5e Druid has a ton of dead levels so any features at those levels aren’t forcing your build in any direction in 1dnd. They are spreading things out so you feel like you are getting something, but in reality they are mostly the same features the 5e Druid had with some new names.
Being put in the priest group is not the problem. The groups barely matter so far.
The biggest loss for the Druid right now is that since wild shape doesn’t use creature stat blocks they lost the tanky play style that existed in the class.
The new moon Druid doesn’t work because they don’t have any tanky-ness as stated as above.
Giving players access to MM stat blocks limits what stat blocks they can create.
There are multiple ways to make the one dnd druid work, but none of those ways is simple, nor will any method make all of us happy.
So allow players to choose what channel Nature feature they get.
Also I would like for the Druid to manipulate nature in a way to create Dificult Terrain with Channel Nature.
I feel a druid should be able to commune and control nature. Not be a healer that can summon and become an animal. Let them get healing spells if they want to heal.
Where in the current Druid core class is there a healing feature?
I am sorry if I come out gruff about my opinion. But I do not want the Druid to be a shapeshifting Cleric. If you want a healing Druid pick healing Spells or have a circel based on healing. Do not impose it on me.
So allow players to choose what channel Nature feature they get.
Also I would like for the Druid to manipulate nature in a way to create Dificult Terrain with Channel Nature.
I feel a druid should be able to commune and control nature. Not be a healer that can summon and become an animal. Let them get healing spells if they want to heal.
Where in the current Druid core class is there a healing feature?
I am sorry if I come out gruff about my opinion. But I do not want the Druid to be a shapeshifting Cleric. If you want a healing Druid pick healing Spells or have a circel based on healing. Do not impose it on me.
Again, if you don't want to use the feature, don't. It shares a resource with other features, so it's not like you're letting it go to waste if you choose not to use the resource for it.
I will say that the idea of giving the Druid a CN ability to alter a section of terrain to difficult terrain and/ worse is appealing to me. It gives them back some of the nature feel without using a spell or forcing a shape change.
I will say that the idea of giving the Druid a CN ability to alter a section of terrain to difficult terrain and/ worse is appealing to me. It gives them back some of the nature feel without using a spell or forcing a shape change.
Oh, yeah, I don't object to it in principle, just observing that it seems to heretofore have been a mechanic they've reserved for spells, and if that's a deliberate design choice then that could weigh against them adding such a feature in the future.
So allow players to choose what channel Nature feature they get.
Also I would like for the Druid to manipulate nature in a way to create Dificult Terrain with Channel Nature.
I feel a druid should be able to commune and control nature. Not be a healer that can summon and become an animal. Let them get healing spells if they want to heal.
Where in the current Druid core class is there a healing feature?
I am sorry if I come out gruff about my opinion. But I do not want the Druid to be a shapeshifting Cleric. If you want a healing Druid pick healing Spells or have a circel based on healing. Do not impose it on me.
in it’s most basic ability Goodberry, but as a class feature
Circle of Dreams
At 2nd level, you become imbued with the blessings of the Summer Court. You are a font of energy that offers respite from injuries. You have a pool of fey energy represented by a number of d6s equal to your druid level.
As a bonus action, you can choose one creature you can see within 120 feet of you and spend a number of those dice equal to half your druid level or less. Roll the spent dice and add them together. The target regains a number of hit points equal to the total. The target also gains 1 temporary hit point per die spent.
You regain all expended dice when you finish a long rest.
So allow players to choose what channel Nature feature they get.
Also I would like for the Druid to manipulate nature in a way to create Dificult Terrain with Channel Nature.
I feel a druid should be able to commune and control nature. Not be a healer that can summon and become an animal. Let them get healing spells if they want to heal.
Where in the current Druid core class is there a healing feature?
I am sorry if I come out gruff about my opinion. But I do not want the Druid to be a shapeshifting Cleric. If you want a healing Druid pick healing Spells or have a circel based on healing. Do not impose it on me.
Where in the current Druid core class is there a terrain control feature?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The biggest loss for the Druid right now is that since wild shape doesn’t use creature stat blocks they lost the tanky play style that existed in the class.
The new moon Druid doesn’t work because they don’t have any tanky-ness as stated as above.
Giving players access to MM stat blocks limits what stat blocks they can create.
There are multiple ways to make the one dnd druid work, but none of those ways is simple, nor will any method make all of us happy.
The biggest issue isn't even so much the loss of the tanky playstyle, it's the massive loss of utility that wildshape used to provide. Don't get me wrong, Moon Druid was my favorite sub-class because I do love the theme of turning into a wild beast and fighting in melee. But the loss of utility affects every version of druid in a massive way.
Also you can't create stat blocks with the new wildshape. You can flavor three existing stat blocks however you want but there is no customization available. Druids had significantly more mechanically meaningful creative choices with the old wildshape. An example:
5e Wildshape: My druid wildshapes into a giant spider. He sets up a trap to capture an enemy minion. I climb on the ceiling because nobody checks the ceiling. Minion walks in and doesn't notice the spider because it gives the druid +7 stealth. I then hit the Minion with Web, causing the Restrained condition. Then I drop down and deliver a Bite that administers the Giant Spider's paralytic venom, causing the enemy to become paralyzed when their HP reaches 0. I can then take the paralyzed minion back to the party for interrogation.
One DnD Wildshape: My druid wildshapes into Land Form that looks like a giant spider. It has a climb speed but can't Spider Climb, so I try to hide behind the couch instead. It gives no stealth bonus so the Minion notices I am there. I have no Web so I can't Restrain him, so I just attack. We make a big, loud fight where I lose a bunch of HP because I only have 13AC. I try to use Unarmed Strike to grapple and drag him out of the room but he kills me anyway because there's nothing in the current grapple rules to stop the guy from hitting you over and over again.
The first one feels like you're actually a giant spider. The second one you have no spider-like qualities at all. You may as well have entered that fight as an elephant or a giant gorilla for how much it effected the actual gameplay.
For One DnD's Wildshape to be baseline acceptable it HAS to give us access to various animal features that we can pick and choose. Anything less and it just won't feel like we're turning into animals. It'll feel like we're turning into an arbitrary stack of stats that is the same for every single animal we turn into, and that is boring and kills creativity.
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Another question, will this change to wild shape become the model for Polymorph? A set of fixed stat blocks the caster picks from? If you are going to nerf wildshape to stop the hitpoints sink then logic dictates wizards should also nerf Polymorph where someone can turn into a dragon.
I would value some clarity around the differences or uniqueness of Paladins and Clerics, which I had from 1e to 5e - always seems like a fuzzy overlap. I wonder about having the Smite spells available to Priests; I liked when they were unique to Paladins. I do not have a good answer that is simple and clear. My best suggestion is the word complement - design the two classes to work holistically with some lower overlap, able to do more together than they can individually.
Also, if a Paladin is in the priest class group and has some commonality with a Warrior, what would be the equivalent in the mage class group?
I'm not sure, it would balance it when used on voluntary creatures but it would make it stronger when used against a enemy. Though they may go the save every round route as well with it. Still turning a fearsome enemy into a 13 AC crap attack being who keeps its own HP would be pretty powerful. Its would still be far more powerful than the 1D&D banishment even if it has a save every round like banishment.
That's fair; thank you for providing those! (They sound fun, actually!)
No matter the definition of "broken" we want to use, I think "problematic" is maybe a more appropriate term. I really believe the current wildshape in general--and Moon subclass specifically-- is not widely problematic (especially at the tiers people spend most of their time playing) because of the reasons you pointed out: DM has many specific ways to clamp down. Heck, if you had my GM, he severely limited which animals my druid had seen (and thus limited how many shapes I got to choose from).
And that's why I conclude that losing all of the various abilities of all the lower-CR animals as well as the extra hp all make the proposed changes to wildshape utterly ridiculous. Especially given how the whole goal was to make the druid more fun to play for people who already loved playing it. The creativity in part came from finding the specific form that would most help in a given situation. gaining access to powerful utility abilities at low levels. All of that stuff really makes the druid feel like it had a niche, like it was something special. I intend to tell WOTC exactly that.
I honestly think they could keep the templates if they wanted to. Maybe that would help newer players understand what they can do. But bring back the extra hp and give access to at least all the CR 1/4 and lower beasts. Maybe that's just making it too complex again, I dunno.
so my 'fix' for the ua stuff without going too far from the design of the ua would be change the 3 stat blocks to the primal beast stat blocks for the ranger and use the wisdom modifier instead of proficiency bonus include the level 5 feature of multiattack (but maybe the unarmed bonus attack that seemed kindda odd) allow the land form to choose burrow or climb and allow to keep class and feat features (guess racial features might be bit complicated for some) also allow tiny from the start as that makes no sense. maybe replace the tiny feature for a feature that grants either blindsight or tremor sense (choose when ws). in regards to hp 5+5*wis mod as standard or 5+5*druid level (which ever is highest) for moon druid.
Warlock. Warlock has always been an Arcane caster that plays more like a Warrior than like a caster. Only difference is instead of using a weapon Warlocks use Eldritch Blast to "Attack". Consider if you simply reflavour EB as a magical bow and arrow, there is very little to distinguish them from a 5e Ranger (at least at lower levels), both use a BA spell to tag one enemy to get extra damage on each ranged attack they make against that enemy, and then make a series of attacks where with [DEX/CHA] for attack and damage rolls.
Why all the healing for Druid in their class abilities. They are the terrain controls and (with Wild Shape) PSudo-tanks.
Replace healing Gloom with create an area of difficult terrain.
Wild Shape is mot the druid taking on the Shape of an animal NOT becoming an animal. They use their stats, HP, Proficiencies and do not get the abilities associated with animals. (No tunneling for moles, webs for spiders Ink for octopuses)
SO now Paladins are in the back smiting with a bow and casting damaging Cantrips from the back,
Why the steed as a part of the core class. replace it and give Steed to the Cavalier.
IS every class going to have healing in their class features? Even if the class itself is not "the" healer.
Sorry.
Druids have always had a healing element. Not quite as much to the fore as Clerics, but they've usually had access to most of the core healing spells.
Spells. Not core features..
If I am a druid and I do not want to be a healer I waste levels and class features. It would be easier to just not take healing spells.
My point was that being a healer has always been a part of the class identity, and since their- presently extremely poorly executed- idea is to give the Druid some early class features besides spellcasting besides Wildshape, they included a healing feature. I expect most subclasses will have alternative uses for Channel Nature, the same way Cleric and Paladins do, so if you don't like the healing one, just don't use it.
I'm fine with having a healing trick for Channel Nature for those who want to focus on being a druidic healer. That said, I think some way to use it to create Difficult Terrain or maybe summon roots to initiate a spell save grapple with a single target would make Channel Nature more versatile and give druids who want to lean more into the plant manipulation/elemental control specialist more tools to play with.
That way druids who want an animal speaker theme could use it for Summon Familiar, druids who want an animal shapeshifter theme can use it for Wildshape, druids who want a healer theme could use it for Bloom, and druids who want the plant wizard theme could use it for Root.
Have there been classes that got terrain affecting features? From my first blush recollections, that's usually been the province of spells on the player end.
I really wish people would take the time to look at the 5e Druid and make comparisons and not just make wildly outrageous claims. Let me lay out the truth and then we can align to get the fixes we would like to see.
So allow players to choose what channel Nature feature they get.
Also I would like for the Druid to manipulate nature in a way to create Dificult Terrain with Channel Nature.
I feel a druid should be able to commune and control nature. Not be a healer that can summon and become an animal. Let them get healing spells if they want to heal.
Where in the current Druid core class is there a healing feature?
I am sorry if I come out gruff about my opinion. But I do not want the Druid to be a shapeshifting Cleric. If you want a healing Druid pick healing Spells or have a circel based on healing. Do not impose it on me.
Again, if you don't want to use the feature, don't. It shares a resource with other features, so it's not like you're letting it go to waste if you choose not to use the resource for it.
I will say that the idea of giving the Druid a CN ability to alter a section of terrain to difficult terrain and/ worse is appealing to me. It gives them back some of the nature feel without using a spell or forcing a shape change.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Oh, yeah, I don't object to it in principle, just observing that it seems to heretofore have been a mechanic they've reserved for spells, and if that's a deliberate design choice then that could weigh against them adding such a feature in the future.
in it’s most basic ability Goodberry, but as a class feature
Circle of Dreams
At 2nd level, you become imbued with the blessings of the Summer Court. You are a font of energy that offers respite from injuries. You have a pool of fey energy represented by a number of d6s equal to your druid level.
As a bonus action, you can choose one creature you can see within 120 feet of you and spend a number of those dice equal to half your druid level or less. Roll the spent dice and add them together. The target regains a number of hit points equal to the total. The target also gains 1 temporary hit point per die spent.
You regain all expended dice when you finish a long rest.
Where in the current Druid core class is there a terrain control feature?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The biggest issue isn't even so much the loss of the tanky playstyle, it's the massive loss of utility that wildshape used to provide. Don't get me wrong, Moon Druid was my favorite sub-class because I do love the theme of turning into a wild beast and fighting in melee. But the loss of utility affects every version of druid in a massive way.
Also you can't create stat blocks with the new wildshape. You can flavor three existing stat blocks however you want but there is no customization available. Druids had significantly more mechanically meaningful creative choices with the old wildshape. An example:
5e Wildshape: My druid wildshapes into a giant spider. He sets up a trap to capture an enemy minion. I climb on the ceiling because nobody checks the ceiling. Minion walks in and doesn't notice the spider because it gives the druid +7 stealth. I then hit the Minion with Web, causing the Restrained condition. Then I drop down and deliver a Bite that administers the Giant Spider's paralytic venom, causing the enemy to become paralyzed when their HP reaches 0. I can then take the paralyzed minion back to the party for interrogation.
One DnD Wildshape: My druid wildshapes into Land Form that looks like a giant spider. It has a climb speed but can't Spider Climb, so I try to hide behind the couch instead. It gives no stealth bonus so the Minion notices I am there. I have no Web so I can't Restrain him, so I just attack. We make a big, loud fight where I lose a bunch of HP because I only have 13AC. I try to use Unarmed Strike to grapple and drag him out of the room but he kills me anyway because there's nothing in the current grapple rules to stop the guy from hitting you over and over again.
The first one feels like you're actually a giant spider. The second one you have no spider-like qualities at all. You may as well have entered that fight as an elephant or a giant gorilla for how much it effected the actual gameplay.
For One DnD's Wildshape to be baseline acceptable it HAS to give us access to various animal features that we can pick and choose. Anything less and it just won't feel like we're turning into animals. It'll feel like we're turning into an arbitrary stack of stats that is the same for every single animal we turn into, and that is boring and kills creativity.