yo-yo is a thing because of the design of heal spells and hit points. the only heal spells that will prevent someone from going down are lvl 7+ spells.
Adjusting heal spells isn't a bad idea. If you added 5 temp hp per spell level to cure wounds it would (a) become actually useful instead of just the weak cousin of healing word, and (b) be strong enough to be relevant at preventing someone from going down.
Devotion Paladin is the traditional holy warrior. The entire flavor of the subclass is supposed to be about smiting evil. Sacred weapon as a bonus action is a MUCH needed fix. Now it's usable. The loss of turn the unholy does pull a lot from the holy warrior stereotype. Would it be too much to add a rider to the sacred weapon CD from Turn the Unholy something along the following lines:
"Each fiend or undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of youstuck with your sacred weapon must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes additional damage."
.This would not be OP as you need to engage with your sacred weapon for it to work and it retains the flavor of a Holy Warrior fighting in battle to smite evil.
Additionally, the Smite of Protection feels too cleric like. Flavor it for subclass. I'm thinking change out
Your Divine Smite now radiates protective energy targetedthat allows you and your allies to stay in the fight against evil. Your divine smite now increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend. Whenever you use your Divine Smite, choose yourself or an ally within 30 feet of yourself. The chosen creature gains Temporary Hit Points equal to 1d8 plus the level of the Spell Slot used for the Divine Smiteis now under the effects of the Protection from evil and good for 1 minute.
Some might consider this a nerf as it's usable in fewer situations, but I think it defines the subclass better. Maybe it makes up for the additional rider on sacred weapon.
I think I understand why they didn't want to allow druids to wildshape into Tiny creatures at early levels. If rogues are to be the infiltrator / stealth experts, then it's their shtick and Tiny druids are stepping on the rogue's toes.
Invisibility and Pass Without Trace are both level 2 and do a lot more to step on the rogue's shtick than tiny wild shape ever did.
Pass Without Trace is overpowered for its level, imo, so that might get nerfed as well. Invisibility doesn't make you a Stealth expert; Rule as Intended, you still need to make decent Stealth checks to make sure you're unheard as well as unseen. A tiny mouse wandering a dungeon won't get any attention.
But I could see Tiny forms included earlier with the level 5 feature, as someone suggested here. Would leave the stealth/infiltrator role for low level rogues.
Pass without trace should get nerfed +10 to a skill for a single person is unheard of for the entire group is ludicrous, it is like they wanted to remove the entire scout role so you never have to split the party. Invisibility should do what people expect from invisibility but be a higher level spell or have its duration reduced a lot to balance it. And I think druid forms and familiars in general should have some tells that let people spot them as unnatural so they actually need to make stealth checks.
Even without it, they should still be making stealth checks. If you see a tarantula, centipede, or rat in your house you don't just shrug and ignore it. You usually try to squish it.
In my house sure, in a cave or in a outdoor camp probably not.
An outdoor camp is so eminently scoutable I don't see what the issue is. Climb a tree, send a familiar flying over head, just walk around the edge of the fire light at night, or hide in a bush a listen real good. And what outdoor camp even has multiple rooms / buildings? it's just an open area with a campfire and some tents. If you have a base in a cave, you're probably keeping it clean, including killing pests, assuming an intelligent creature. And if they aren't intelligent, well they might just attack a rat for food, or because it is something alive.
I think I understand why they didn't want to allow druids to wildshape into Tiny creatures at early levels. If rogues are to be the infiltrator / stealth experts, then it's their shtick and Tiny druids are stepping on the rogue's toes.
Invisibility and Pass Without Trace are both level 2 and do a lot more to step on the rogue's shtick than tiny wild shape ever did.
Pass Without Trace is overpowered for its level, imo, so that might get nerfed as well. Invisibility doesn't make you a Stealth expert; Rule as Intended, you still need to make decent Stealth checks to make sure you're unheard as well as unseen. A tiny mouse wandering a dungeon won't get any attention.
But I could see Tiny forms included earlier with the level 5 feature, as someone suggested here. Would leave the stealth/infiltrator role for low level rogues.
Pass without trace should get nerfed +10 to a skill for a single person is unheard of for the entire group is ludicrous, it is like they wanted to remove the entire scout role so you never have to split the party. Invisibility should do what people expect from invisibility but be a higher level spell or have its duration reduced a lot to balance it. And I think druid forms and familiars in general should have some tells that let people spot them as unnatural so they actually need to make stealth checks.
Even without it, they should still be making stealth checks. If you see a tarantula, centipede, or rat in your house you don't just shrug and ignore it. You usually try to squish it.
In my house sure, in a cave or in a outdoor camp probably not.
An outdoor camp is so eminently scoutable I don't see what the issue is. Climb a tree, send a familiar flying over head, just walk around the edge of the fire light at night, or hide in a bush a listen real good. And what outdoor camp even has multiple rooms / buildings? it's just an open area with a campfire and some tents. If you have a base in a cave, you're probably keeping it clean, including killing pests, assuming an intelligent creature. And if they aren't intelligent, well they might just attack a rat for food, or because it is something alive.
Almost everything can be scouted, the difference is a rogue actually has to sneak into a position to scout it. A druid or familiar just strolls over.
I think I understand why they didn't want to allow druids to wildshape into Tiny creatures at early levels. If rogues are to be the infiltrator / stealth experts, then it's their shtick and Tiny druids are stepping on the rogue's toes.
Invisibility and Pass Without Trace are both level 2 and do a lot more to step on the rogue's shtick than tiny wild shape ever did.
Pass Without Trace is overpowered for its level, imo, so that might get nerfed as well. Invisibility doesn't make you a Stealth expert; Rule as Intended, you still need to make decent Stealth checks to make sure you're unheard as well as unseen. A tiny mouse wandering a dungeon won't get any attention.
But I could see Tiny forms included earlier with the level 5 feature, as someone suggested here. Would leave the stealth/infiltrator role for low level rogues.
Pass without trace should get nerfed +10 to a skill for a single person is unheard of for the entire group is ludicrous, it is like they wanted to remove the entire scout role so you never have to split the party. Invisibility should do what people expect from invisibility but be a higher level spell or have its duration reduced a lot to balance it. And I think druid forms and familiars in general should have some tells that let people spot them as unnatural so they actually need to make stealth checks.
Even without it, they should still be making stealth checks. If you see a tarantula, centipede, or rat in your house you don't just shrug and ignore it. You usually try to squish it.
In my house sure, in a cave or in a outdoor camp probably not.
An outdoor camp is so eminently scoutable I don't see what the issue is. Climb a tree, send a familiar flying over head, just walk around the edge of the fire light at night, or hide in a bush a listen real good. And what outdoor camp even has multiple rooms / buildings? it's just an open area with a campfire and some tents. If you have a base in a cave, you're probably keeping it clean, including killing pests, assuming an intelligent creature. And if they aren't intelligent, well they might just attack a rat for food, or because it is something alive.
Almost everything can be scouted, the difference is a rogue actually has to sneak into a position to scout it. A druid or familiar just strolls over.
This is all on the DM...nothing should just stroll over. If a Wildshaped Deer walks by a camp out in nature, where Deer are commonly seen...it should draw a perception check by the bandits/guards or whatever. If it is high enough, then whomever rolled that might have to investigate the strange Deer that looks way to interested in their camp...or maybe it is a hungry Goblin Guard who just wants some Mutton! If no bandit/guard roll high, then the Deer can then just stroll up and check things out...if it gets closer...more perception checks should be thrown at it etc. Most things like this are up to the DM to roleplay out, the only advantage a Druid or Familar has, is setting based. The reason why a Rogue needs the stealth roll, is they should not be there at all, it is exactly what the guards are looking for...a thief or infiltrator, they need to not be seen at all. In a nature setting, seeing an animal might not trigger the same effect as a humanoid, but that could flip in an opened city setting, or castle etc., etc.
I think I understand why they didn't want to allow druids to wildshape into Tiny creatures at early levels. If rogues are to be the infiltrator / stealth experts, then it's their shtick and Tiny druids are stepping on the rogue's toes.
Invisibility and Pass Without Trace are both level 2 and do a lot more to step on the rogue's shtick than tiny wild shape ever did.
Pass Without Trace is overpowered for its level, imo, so that might get nerfed as well. Invisibility doesn't make you a Stealth expert; Rule as Intended, you still need to make decent Stealth checks to make sure you're unheard as well as unseen. A tiny mouse wandering a dungeon won't get any attention.
But I could see Tiny forms included earlier with the level 5 feature, as someone suggested here. Would leave the stealth/infiltrator role for low level rogues.
Pass without trace should get nerfed +10 to a skill for a single person is unheard of for the entire group is ludicrous, it is like they wanted to remove the entire scout role so you never have to split the party. Invisibility should do what people expect from invisibility but be a higher level spell or have its duration reduced a lot to balance it. And I think druid forms and familiars in general should have some tells that let people spot them as unnatural so they actually need to make stealth checks.
Even without it, they should still be making stealth checks. If you see a tarantula, centipede, or rat in your house you don't just shrug and ignore it. You usually try to squish it.
In my house sure, in a cave or in a outdoor camp probably not.
An outdoor camp is so eminently scoutable I don't see what the issue is. Climb a tree, send a familiar flying over head, just walk around the edge of the fire light at night, or hide in a bush a listen real good. And what outdoor camp even has multiple rooms / buildings? it's just an open area with a campfire and some tents. If you have a base in a cave, you're probably keeping it clean, including killing pests, assuming an intelligent creature. And if they aren't intelligent, well they might just attack a rat for food, or because it is something alive.
Almost everything can be scouted, the difference is a rogue actually has to sneak into a position to scout it. A druid or familiar just strolls over.
Except they don't unless the DM allows them to. People notice a deer, owl, or hawk hanging out near their camp. I mean, just this evening there was a red tailed hawk perched in a tree at my university and there was half a dozen people staring & taking photos of it with their phone. A spider large enough to carry 5lbs of stuff (as specified by Find Familiar) is going to be noticable, and will likely cause a reaction. Even just a fly or mosquito is very likely to get swatted at if it goes too near someone. Rogues have never been good at infiltration because of their need for cover in order to hide, it's why IRL spies are generally very charismatic and intelligent people who talk or act their way into buildings rather than you know running from house plant to house plant trying to hide. Bards, Warlocks, and Wizards are all way better at infiltration than Rogues are in general, Druid is just another on that list. Rogues are good a breaking into unguarded places, not infiltrating high security fortresses.
Then again, who pays close attention to mice or insects?
I do, but I'm also just an animal-watcher kind of guy.
Actually, that could be a fun way to stymie a druid spy. Turns out one of the random guards is an avid bird watcher and has become enamored with your druid's feathery form, not letting it out of their sight.
Basically, if you don't act like the thing you have transformed into, some people might just find it weird enough anyway.
Then again, who pays close attention to mice or insects?
other insects, cats, other rodents, lizards, if you turn into such a form then it is fair for a DM to toss in something like that, or even a cat. But tiny forms could still be limited in an "Animal of the Critters" by saying it can only go down a creature no smaller than half a foot in length (excluding any tails) and no more than 4 feet.
Yesterday I was finally able to test the new Druid. And yes, WS doesn't work. In combat it is terribly weak, even though I played the new circle of the moon. The only advantage is that you can use healing spells, but I had to spend them to stay in the fight. Outside of combat it has lost much of its versatility and utility.
My conclusion is: if they want at least the circle of the moon to be able to use their WS, they have to give it a better AC (at least to that circle). 10 + Wis is lousy AC for someone who wants to be on the front line.
And ideally you should be able to choose features for your wild shape for all druids. Things that would give you utility outside of combat, and more options in it. Probably those features would have to scale, being able to unlock new and better ones at higher levels. It's not up to me to decide what features they should be, but I do think they should be inspired by the beasts that currently exist in the game. Things like Burrow Speed, Stealth advantage, tremor sense, blind fight, etc... I'm not saying those, but the concept.
Sorry guys, I took the liberty not to read all of the 17 pages of comments. I read just enough to see that most peoples seems to think the same as I about the Druid modifications.
And my reaction when reading about the last unearthed arcana was :
Why is the druid the first class to be nerfed?
I mean, from what I recall when I read the Cleric and Bard classes, I had a feeling that they got an undeserved boost. Both of those classes where clearly powerful enough already. So why nerf what is probably the least played class by destroying it's most interesting and creative feature?
There is an effort to give the druid a new feature at every single level... By making the wild shape a glorified Shillelargh (with the cosmetic effect of turning into an animal) and then giving a few little boosts to this feature every few level to make it feel like it's not miserable.
One could say "hey at 5th level every druid has a second attack now!". Yes, but they use their own HP in wild shape and cannot have an AC above 15 (10+wisdom modifier, with no armor or other items whatsoever) with a D8 for their HP, that is absolutely not enough to stand on the front line, making the second attack ineffective.
And why bar druids from wild shaping into tiny animals until 11th level (and only for 10 minutes)? Yes it's really powerful for infiltration purposes. But at 5th level your wizard or bard can turn your rogue invisible. Someone who says turning into a cat or a rat is an unbeatable infiltration method clearly never had to flee a drooling goblin sentry who ran after them with a skewer in hand. Dogs and cats are also really dangerous for any tiny critter or bug form a druid could take. Players can try to abuse wild shape for infiltration purposes but it's really easy for an imaginative DM to make sure it's not without risks and it can evolve into absolutely epic situations. Imagine being wild shaped into a mouse and being tracked by a nasty killing machine (more commonly called a cat) all over the enemy camp, knowing that if the fearsome beast gets you you will be turning back into your humanoïde form and surrounded by enemies without any support (yes, your infiltration method is "unbeatable" after all, so why would you bring your friends to such a dangerous place?).
On the other hand, I'll admit that the Moon circle deserved a nerf, but not one that drastic. I mean, both "Abjuration spells" and "Swift transformation" are overridden by druid main class features at level 17 and 13 respectively. You do more damage, yes, but not much is done to allow you to survive on the front line. Which mean you will be more useful staying on the back line and casting moonbeam and a few healing words. That's a bit sad for the fighting druid subclass... As is, I would describe it as a trap suclass that stops you from doing what a druid does best (in combat that means balancing between support and battlefield control) to do something else and not be good at it.
What they really wanted to do is make wild shape more accessible, and stop being a bag of hit points. The problem is that they have designed it poorly. They obviously didn't want to make the druid a bad class. It's an unfortunate accident, and they're going to fix it thanks to the feedback from the community.
Thanks for the answer, as long as WotC acknowledged that there is an issue with this new druid class draft, I'm fine.
For the accessibility issue... Well, I'm one of those guys that like the fact that the druid is tricky to use so I cannot say I'm in favor of simplifying it, but I understand the approach and am ready to say it's a good idea to do so to allow more people to play a druid and have fun with it.
On the "bag of hit points" side, I got the feeling that the druids as a whole are paying for the overpowered Moon druids. Except at lever 2 perhaps, using wild shape to get an extra HP pool is only something druids (other than Moon circle) will do when they are grasping for straw. Most of the time sacrificing an action isn't worth the extra HP pool. And I'm not for removing options that players can use as "desperate mesures". If a druid is in a bad enough situation to use wild shape for the extra HP, he/she is effectively out of the fighting already. That makes the druid hard to kill? Well surviving is a part of the very concept of a druid. And does that really make a druid any more resilient than a cleric (which usually has an AC between 16 and 20, no magic item, spell or feature required)?
Basically, if you don't act like the thing you have transformed into, some people might just find it weird enough anyway.
Then again, who pays close attention to mice or insects?
So you're totally cool with a cockroach walking across your kitchen table? Or a mouse in your kitchen cupboard? Sure if you are seen while WSed and infiltrating the enemies aren't going to shout "Wake up we're under attack!" But they are very likely to try and catch or kill you or notice you and stare at you. And if not the enemies then the dogs, cats, rats, and raccoons or other insects/birds that hang around them definitely will. It logically cannot both be true that : the enemy camp has lots of random small critters wandering around because the enemies ignore them, and there aren't any critters in the camp that would see your tiny insect/mouse form as a potential meal.
I've DMed for many parties that used familiars or WS for infiltration these are various creative situations that came out of it: Some bored devils who were on sentry duty decided to use the owl for entertainment and started betting with each other to see who could shoot it first. One of the bandits was an avid bird watcher and got all excited and pointed out the owl to the other bandits on guard duty until their leader came and threatened to shoot the owl unless they went back to work. A guard tried to befriend a cat-transformed druid offering them treats and milk and trying to pet them, and ended up picking up the cat and carrying them back to their tent. A cook chased a rat-familiar all over the camp with holding a giant cleaver shouting that "let this be a lesson to all ye vermin!" A guard nearly jump out of his skin upon spotting a spider-transformed druid and screamed like a little boy for his friend to come and squish it because he had arachnophobia. A cat-transformed druid nearly got into a fight with the tom cat owned by a bandit captain who didn't take kindly to a strange cat invading his territory.
Invisibility or Disguise Self (+ good deception check) is better than a familiar or WS.
Sorry guys, I took the liberty not to read all of the 17 pages of comments. I read just enough to see that most peoples seems to think the same as I about the Druid modifications.
And my reaction when reading about the last unearthed arcana was :
Why is the druid the first class to be nerfed?
I mean, from what I recall when I read the Cleric and Bard classes, I had a feeling that they got an undeserved boost. Both of those classes where clearly powerful enough already. So why nerf what is probably the least played class by destroying it's most interesting and creative feature?
There is an effort to give the druid a new feature at every single level... By making the wild shape a glorified Shillelargh (with the cosmetic effect of turning into an animal) and then giving a few little boosts to this feature every few level to make it feel like it's not miserable.
One could say "hey at 5th level every druid has a second attack now!". Yes, but they use their own HP in wild shape and cannot have an AC above 15 (10+wisdom modifier, with no armor or other items whatsoever) with a D8 for their HP, that is absolutely not enough to stand on the front line, making the second attack ineffective.
And why bar druids from wild shaping into tiny animals until 11th level (and only for 10 minutes)? Yes it's really powerful for infiltration purposes. But at 5th level your wizard or bard can turn your rogue invisible. Someone who says turning into a cat or a rat is an unbeatable infiltration method clearly never had to flee a drooling goblin sentry who ran after them with a skewer in hand. Dogs and cats are also really dangerous for any tiny critter or bug form a druid could take. Players can try to abuse wild shape for infiltration purposes but it's really easy for an imaginative DM to make sure it's not without risks and it can evolve into absolutely epic situations. Imagine being wild shaped into a mouse and being tracked by a nasty killing machine (more commonly called a cat) all over the enemy camp, knowing that if the fearsome beast gets you you will be turning back into your humanoïde form and surrounded by enemies without any support (yes, your infiltration method is "unbeatable" after all, so why would you bring your friends to such a dangerous place?).
On the other hand, I'll admit that the Moon circle deserved a nerf, but not one that drastic. I mean, both "Abjuration spells" and "Swift transformation" are overridden by druid main class features at level 17 and 13 respectively. You do more damage, yes, but not much is done to allow you to survive on the front line. Which mean you will be more useful staying on the back line and casting moonbeam and a few healing words. That's a bit sad for the fighting druid subclass... As is, I would describe it as a trap suclass that stops you from doing what a druid does best (in combat that means balancing between support and battlefield control) to do something else and not be good at it.
Bards got nerfed hard too. Have you seen the ridiculous mishmash of spells they’re supposed to work from now? They’re not bards anymore now, they’re community college wizards with a music degree.
other insects, cats, other rodents, lizards, if you turn into such a form then it is fair for a DM to toss in something like that, or even a cat. But tiny forms could still be limited in an "Animal of the Critters" by saying it can only go down a creature no smaller than half a foot in length (excluding any tails) and no more than 4 feet.
While most of the time I don't care, occasionally it would be useful to have the "diminutive" and "fine" categories from 3e.
other insects, cats, other rodents, lizards, if you turn into such a form then it is fair for a DM to toss in something like that, or even a cat. But tiny forms could still be limited in an "Animal of the Critters" by saying it can only go down a creature no smaller than half a foot in length (excluding any tails) and no more than 4 feet.
While most of the time I don't care, occasionally it would be useful to have the "diminutive" and "fine" categories from 3e.
Diminutive yes. Fine really only mattered for Swarms, which always took up more space than that anyway. I'm fine (heh) continuing to leave the Fine and Colossal ends of the spectrum off.
After working with it for a while limiting the Paladin’s Divine smite so they can’t cast a spell on the same turn is too much of a nerf. I would limit it so they can’t cast a smite spell on the same hit they activate Divine Smite, but still allow them to use a spell on the same turn even a smite spell on another hit.
After working with it for a while limiting the Paladin’s Divine smite so they can’t cast a spell on the same turn is too much of a nerf. I would limit it so they can’t cast a smite spell on the same hit they activate Divine Smite, but still allow them to use a spell on the same turn even a smite spell on another hit.
An elegant fix for this would be to turn the Smite spells into Reactions, and make Divine Smite also a Reaction. This would naturally limit both to once per round without affecting other spellcasting.
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Adjusting heal spells isn't a bad idea. If you added 5 temp hp per spell level to cure wounds it would (a) become actually useful instead of just the weak cousin of healing word, and (b) be strong enough to be relevant at preventing someone from going down.
Devotion Paladin is the traditional holy warrior. The entire flavor of the subclass is supposed to be about smiting evil. Sacred weapon as a bonus action is a MUCH needed fix. Now it's usable. The loss of turn the unholy does pull a lot from the holy warrior stereotype. Would it be too much to add a rider to the sacred weapon CD from Turn the Unholy something along the following lines:
"Each fiend or undead
that can see or hear you within 30 feet of youstuck with your sacred weapon must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes additional damage.".This would not be OP as you need to engage with your sacred weapon for it to work and it retains the flavor of a Holy Warrior fighting in battle to smite evil.
Additionally, the Smite of Protection feels too cleric like. Flavor it for subclass. I'm thinking change out
Your Divine Smite now radiates protective energy targeted that allows you and your allies to stay in the fight against evil. Your divine smite now increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend. Whenever you use your Divine Smite, choose yourself or an ally within 30 feet of yourself. The chosen creature gains Temporary Hit Points equal to 1d8 plus the level of the Spell Slot used for the Divine Smite is now under the effects of the Protection from evil and good for 1 minute.
Some might consider this a nerf as it's usable in fewer situations, but I think it defines the subclass better. Maybe it makes up for the additional rider on sacred weapon.
An outdoor camp is so eminently scoutable I don't see what the issue is. Climb a tree, send a familiar flying over head, just walk around the edge of the fire light at night, or hide in a bush a listen real good. And what outdoor camp even has multiple rooms / buildings? it's just an open area with a campfire and some tents. If you have a base in a cave, you're probably keeping it clean, including killing pests, assuming an intelligent creature. And if they aren't intelligent, well they might just attack a rat for food, or because it is something alive.
Almost everything can be scouted, the difference is a rogue actually has to sneak into a position to scout it. A druid or familiar just strolls over.
This is all on the DM...nothing should just stroll over. If a Wildshaped Deer walks by a camp out in nature, where Deer are commonly seen...it should draw a perception check by the bandits/guards or whatever. If it is high enough, then whomever rolled that might have to investigate the strange Deer that looks way to interested in their camp...or maybe it is a hungry Goblin Guard who just wants some Mutton! If no bandit/guard roll high, then the Deer can then just stroll up and check things out...if it gets closer...more perception checks should be thrown at it etc. Most things like this are up to the DM to roleplay out, the only advantage a Druid or Familar has, is setting based. The reason why a Rogue needs the stealth roll, is they should not be there at all, it is exactly what the guards are looking for...a thief or infiltrator, they need to not be seen at all. In a nature setting, seeing an animal might not trigger the same effect as a humanoid, but that could flip in an opened city setting, or castle etc., etc.
Except they don't unless the DM allows them to. People notice a deer, owl, or hawk hanging out near their camp. I mean, just this evening there was a red tailed hawk perched in a tree at my university and there was half a dozen people staring & taking photos of it with their phone. A spider large enough to carry 5lbs of stuff (as specified by Find Familiar) is going to be noticable, and will likely cause a reaction. Even just a fly or mosquito is very likely to get swatted at if it goes too near someone. Rogues have never been good at infiltration because of their need for cover in order to hide, it's why IRL spies are generally very charismatic and intelligent people who talk or act their way into buildings rather than you know running from house plant to house plant trying to hide. Bards, Warlocks, and Wizards are all way better at infiltration than Rogues are in general, Druid is just another on that list. Rogues are good a breaking into unguarded places, not infiltrating high security fortresses.
Then again, who pays close attention to mice or insects?
I do, but I'm also just an animal-watcher kind of guy.
Actually, that could be a fun way to stymie a druid spy. Turns out one of the random guards is an avid bird watcher and has become enamored with your druid's feathery form, not letting it out of their sight.
other insects, cats, other rodents, lizards, if you turn into such a form then it is fair for a DM to toss in something like that, or even a cat. But tiny forms could still be limited in an "Animal of the Critters" by saying it can only go down a creature no smaller than half a foot in length (excluding any tails) and no more than 4 feet.
Yesterday I was finally able to test the new Druid. And yes, WS doesn't work. In combat it is terribly weak, even though I played the new circle of the moon. The only advantage is that you can use healing spells, but I had to spend them to stay in the fight. Outside of combat it has lost much of its versatility and utility.
My conclusion is: if they want at least the circle of the moon to be able to use their WS, they have to give it a better AC (at least to that circle). 10 + Wis is lousy AC for someone who wants to be on the front line.
And ideally you should be able to choose features for your wild shape for all druids. Things that would give you utility outside of combat, and more options in it. Probably those features would have to scale, being able to unlock new and better ones at higher levels. It's not up to me to decide what features they should be, but I do think they should be inspired by the beasts that currently exist in the game. Things like Burrow Speed, Stealth advantage, tremor sense, blind fight, etc... I'm not saying those, but the concept.
Sorry guys, I took the liberty not to read all of the 17 pages of comments. I read just enough to see that most peoples seems to think the same as I about the Druid modifications.
And my reaction when reading about the last unearthed arcana was :
Why is the druid the first class to be nerfed?
I mean, from what I recall when I read the Cleric and Bard classes, I had a feeling that they got an undeserved boost. Both of those classes where clearly powerful enough already. So why nerf what is probably the least played class by destroying it's most interesting and creative feature?
There is an effort to give the druid a new feature at every single level... By making the wild shape a glorified Shillelargh (with the cosmetic effect of turning into an animal) and then giving a few little boosts to this feature every few level to make it feel like it's not miserable.
One could say "hey at 5th level every druid has a second attack now!". Yes, but they use their own HP in wild shape and cannot have an AC above 15 (10+wisdom modifier, with no armor or other items whatsoever) with a D8 for their HP, that is absolutely not enough to stand on the front line, making the second attack ineffective.
And why bar druids from wild shaping into tiny animals until 11th level (and only for 10 minutes)? Yes it's really powerful for infiltration purposes. But at 5th level your wizard or bard can turn your rogue invisible. Someone who says turning into a cat or a rat is an unbeatable infiltration method clearly never had to flee a drooling goblin sentry who ran after them with a skewer in hand. Dogs and cats are also really dangerous for any tiny critter or bug form a druid could take. Players can try to abuse wild shape for infiltration purposes but it's really easy for an imaginative DM to make sure it's not without risks and it can evolve into absolutely epic situations. Imagine being wild shaped into a mouse and being tracked by a nasty killing machine (more commonly called a cat) all over the enemy camp, knowing that if the fearsome beast gets you you will be turning back into your humanoïde form and surrounded by enemies without any support (yes, your infiltration method is "unbeatable" after all, so why would you bring your friends to such a dangerous place?).
On the other hand, I'll admit that the Moon circle deserved a nerf, but not one that drastic. I mean, both "Abjuration spells" and "Swift transformation" are overridden by druid main class features at level 17 and 13 respectively. You do more damage, yes, but not much is done to allow you to survive on the front line. Which mean you will be more useful staying on the back line and casting moonbeam and a few healing words. That's a bit sad for the fighting druid subclass... As is, I would describe it as a trap suclass that stops you from doing what a druid does best (in combat that means balancing between support and battlefield control) to do something else and not be good at it.
What they really wanted to do is make wild shape more accessible, and stop being a bag of hit points. The problem is that they have designed it poorly. They obviously didn't want to make the druid a bad class. It's an unfortunate accident, and they're going to fix it thanks to the feedback from the community.
i hope so because there are people who love the new version of druid so it'll depend who is louder when it comes to feedback
Thanks for the answer, as long as WotC acknowledged that there is an issue with this new druid class draft, I'm fine.
For the accessibility issue... Well, I'm one of those guys that like the fact that the druid is tricky to use so I cannot say I'm in favor of simplifying it, but I understand the approach and am ready to say it's a good idea to do so to allow more people to play a druid and have fun with it.
On the "bag of hit points" side, I got the feeling that the druids as a whole are paying for the overpowered Moon druids. Except at lever 2 perhaps, using wild shape to get an extra HP pool is only something druids (other than Moon circle) will do when they are grasping for straw. Most of the time sacrificing an action isn't worth the extra HP pool. And I'm not for removing options that players can use as "desperate mesures". If a druid is in a bad enough situation to use wild shape for the extra HP, he/she is effectively out of the fighting already. That makes the druid hard to kill? Well surviving is a part of the very concept of a druid. And does that really make a druid any more resilient than a cleric (which usually has an AC between 16 and 20, no magic item, spell or feature required)?
So you're totally cool with a cockroach walking across your kitchen table? Or a mouse in your kitchen cupboard? Sure if you are seen while WSed and infiltrating the enemies aren't going to shout "Wake up we're under attack!" But they are very likely to try and catch or kill you or notice you and stare at you. And if not the enemies then the dogs, cats, rats, and raccoons or other insects/birds that hang around them definitely will. It logically cannot both be true that : the enemy camp has lots of random small critters wandering around because the enemies ignore them, and there aren't any critters in the camp that would see your tiny insect/mouse form as a potential meal.
I've DMed for many parties that used familiars or WS for infiltration these are various creative situations that came out of it:
Some bored devils who were on sentry duty decided to use the owl for entertainment and started betting with each other to see who could shoot it first.
One of the bandits was an avid bird watcher and got all excited and pointed out the owl to the other bandits on guard duty until their leader came and threatened to shoot the owl unless they went back to work.
A guard tried to befriend a cat-transformed druid offering them treats and milk and trying to pet them, and ended up picking up the cat and carrying them back to their tent.
A cook chased a rat-familiar all over the camp with holding a giant cleaver shouting that "let this be a lesson to all ye vermin!"
A guard nearly jump out of his skin upon spotting a spider-transformed druid and screamed like a little boy for his friend to come and squish it because he had arachnophobia.
A cat-transformed druid nearly got into a fight with the tom cat owned by a bandit captain who didn't take kindly to a strange cat invading his territory.
Invisibility or Disguise Self (+ good deception check) is better than a familiar or WS.
Bards got nerfed hard too. Have you seen the ridiculous mishmash of spells they’re supposed to work from now? They’re not bards anymore now, they’re community college wizards with a music degree.
While most of the time I don't care, occasionally it would be useful to have the "diminutive" and "fine" categories from 3e.
Diminutive yes. Fine really only mattered for Swarms, which always took up more space than that anyway. I'm fine (heh) continuing to leave the Fine and Colossal ends of the spectrum off.
After working with it for a while limiting the Paladin’s Divine smite so they can’t cast a spell on the same turn is too much of a nerf. I would limit it so they can’t cast a smite spell on the same hit they activate Divine Smite, but still allow them to use a spell on the same turn even a smite spell on another hit.
An elegant fix for this would be to turn the Smite spells into Reactions, and make Divine Smite also a Reaction. This would naturally limit both to once per round without affecting other spellcasting.