I really like a lot about what they are doing with the druid and really worried about some other parts of it. The big one...
PLEASE LET THERE BE MORE CUSTOMIZATION FOR THE STAT BLOCKS!
When wildshaping part of the fun is finding the right form for the task; right tool for the job. Instead of hunting for the right stat block in the manel let the player pick 1 feature (maybe more with level progression OR with the moon druid allowing to switch feature with the bonus action shift). Like: pact tactics, pounce, charge, rampage, gore, etc. That way the player can flavor the form however they want but can make more decisions then just your standard attack. Like they are a lone and have to fight, take rampage - dungeon crawling with the, party using pack tactics - escaping a burning building use running leap; YOU COULD EVEN HAVE MORE FUN AND MAKE UP NEW ANIMAL ABILITIES!! Just something to show the diversity of the animal kingdom, as is it's just kinda boring I hate to say. I think the nerf if HP is completely valid. I think for the land form there should be a little more HP but it's fine. Also multi-task being beyond a higher a level makes sense too. But please REMOVE the "lose access to all other features"! The fun of rage from barbarian or sneak attack from rogue, multi-classing fun, is removed when it comes to wildshaping. Summary: let wildshape be a tool for creative and fun, doing this by giving options and removing the need to hunt through books but still giving access to all the fun in those books.
Other than that. LOVE channel nature as a concept (would love if that was expanded more while leveling as a druid versus primarily being just wildshape adjustments). Love the idea of elemental abilities and light spell casting for the moon druid too! Thank you!
When the first column runs out of HP, they pop another WS use and refill - as a bonus action, so they don't even lose a round of attacks to do so. Or they stay a druid and have full HP plus all their spells. The other two need actual healing resources, especially if they have more combats that day. It's not the same at all.
When the first column runs out of HP, they pop another WS use and refill - as a bonus action, so they don't even lose a round of attacks to do so.
Well, only if they were knocked out of WS by damage, it's a bonus action to end it otherwise.
Generally speaking, once you hit tier 2, the best way to deal with a druid in wild shape is "only attack if it's free or you really don't have a better target", because its damage is very low for its durability. The same goes for the bear totem barbarian, though if you have a choice between the two, go for the barbarian, it's still a lot more dangerous relative to its durability. However, this isn't the way most DMs think.
When the first column runs out of HP, they pop another WS use and refill - as a bonus action, so they don't even lose a round of attacks to do so. Or they stay a druid and have full HP plus all their spells. The other two need actual healing resources, especially if they have more combats that day. It's not the same at all.
Their attacks are also weaker than a Barbarian or Paladin's, though. Don't have time to crunch the numbers, but I doubt a brief boost in action economy makes that much difference in net DPR in this case. Rage is also a bonus action, and functionally doubles the HP of a Bear Barb. Easily gets up to three or four uses a day too, so unless the party is on strange mix of a marathon run while still getting 2 or more short rests in, the Barbarian is getting more uses of their feature. And Rage doesn't have alternative uses the way Wildshape does. Plus once we get into elementals they're using both charges for the change, so it's a one-off. We can nit-pick differences all day, but it's not that much more of a buffer than what some others get, and this assumes fights going to the wall, whereas I expect more often than not a fight will resolve before the Druid burns through their whole pool.
Too late for survey but think the Divine Smite should be tied to the Paladin spell slot level instead character. If not favors much the multiclass and can get overpowered.
But that is in general, many class features should be tied to its class level instead the character level, like i.e. the Barbarian rage, that progress according to the Barbarian level, or Sorcery Points.
Too late for survey but think the Divine Smite should be tied to the Paladin spell slot level instead character. If not favors much the multiclass and can get overpowered.
But that is in general, many class features should be tied to its class level instead the character level, like i.e. the Barbarian rage, that progress according to the Barbarian level, or Sorcery Points.
The thing is, classes don't have individual slots in a multiclass, except for Pact Magic since it's a distinct system. The levels of various spellcasting classes are aggregated into a total number which tells you how many slots you have. Those slots can be used for any appropriate spell you know/have prepared, and it's the source of the spell that gives it a class identity.
Too late for survey but think the Divine Smite should be tied to the Paladin spell slot level instead character. If not favors much the multiclass and can get overpowered.
But that is in general, many class features should be tied to its class level instead the character level, like i.e. the Barbarian rage, that progress according to the Barbarian level, or Sorcery Points.
The thing is, classes don't have individual slots in a multiclass, except for Pact Magic since it's a distinct system. The levels of various spellcasting classes are aggregated into a total number which tells you how many slots you have. Those slots can be used for any appropriate spell you know/have prepared, and it's the source of the spell that gives it a class identity.
I know, but it can also be target of weird multi-class stuff. Divine Smite for a full-caster is an example. Get a Cleric with 2 levels of Paladin, that Divine Smite is overpowered.
OK it is not for free, as 2 levels are 2 levels, and probably tying it to only 2 levels of Paladin, it would only allow to use your 1st level spell slots, maybe it would make not interesting at all, so it would be just the opposite than before, but it is true that many multi-class options need a fix.
You're missing any context for what you're talking about. It also depends on whether you're talking attacks vs AC or damage vs other defenses (the garbage AC on wild shape makes them relatively easy to take down with attacks but doesn't really affect taking them down with other stuff).
These numbers are assuming you are facing monsters of a CR equal to your level, where 33% of damage is dealt via saving throw effects vs attack rolls.
When the first column runs out of HP, they pop another WS use and refill - as a bonus action, so they don't even lose a round of attacks to do so. Or they stay a druid and have full HP plus all their spells. The other two need actual healing resources, especially if they have more combats that day. It's not the same at all.
The numbers assume using BOTH your druid hitpoints AND all of your wildshape uses.
These numbers are based on one-vs-one combat between you and a monster of CR == your level, where 33% of damage is dealt by saving throw abilities vs attack rolls.
Update : I forgot to include the Paladin's aura bonus to their saving throws from level 6 onwards. There survivability has been update to reflect a +3 aura. Moondruid numbers assume you use both uses of your wildshape plus your druid hitpoints (1-2 bonus actions) but no spellslots to heal, Bear Totem assumes you are under the effect of rage for the entire combat and none of the enemies deal psychic damage (psychic damage is extremely rare for monsters so this seems a fair assumption), Paladin assumes you use all of your Lay on Hands on yourself but do not use any spells to improve your survivability (e.g. no shield of faith).
Including +2 AC bonus to from magic items or Shield of Faith for the Paladin is included after the slash
Level
Moon Druid
Bear Totem Barbarian (AC 16-18)
Paladin (AC 18-20)
4th
4.2 rounds (Dire Wolf)
3.4 rounds
2.7 rounds / 3.1
6th
4.2 rounds (Polar Bear)
4 rounds
3.4 rounds / 3.8
8th
3.8 rounds (Polar Bear)
4.2 rounds
3.8 rounds / 4.3
10th
4.3 rounds (Giant Scorpion)
4.8 rounds
4.0 rounds / 4.5
12th
3.75 rounds (Air Elemental)
5 rounds
4.1 rounds / 4.6
14th
4.5 rounds (Earth Elemental)
5 rounds
4.3 rounds / 4.8
16th
4.2 rounds (Earth Elemental)
5.2 rounds
4.3 rounds / 4.8
At levels < 5 Moon Druid is absolutely broken and needs to be fixed. But at levels 6+ Moon Druid chooses between being a full caster, or a tanky martial with mediocre-poor DPR. If Moon Druid's survivability in WS is to be nerfed, then their DPR MUST be buffed to rival that of a Paladin, or they MUST keep full access to their spellcasting, otherwise it will always be a bad idea to use your WS in combat.
Side note: Fighters really need a buff, because their DPR is only slightly higher (or sometimes lower depending on build) than a paladin or barbarian and their survivability is significantly lower.
These numbers are based on one-vs-one combat between you and a monster of CR == your level, where 33% of damage is dealt by saving throw abilities vs attack rolls.
Update : I forgot to include the Paladin's aura bonus to their saving throws from level 6 onwards. There survivability has been update to reflect a +3 aura. Moondruid numbers assume you use both uses of your wildshape plus your druid hitpoints (1-2 bonus actions) but no spellslots to heal, Bear Totem assumes you are under the effect of rage for the entire combat and none of the enemies deal psychic damage (psychic damage is extremely rare for monsters so this seems a fair assumption), Paladin assumes you use all of your Lay on Hands on yourself but do not use any spells to improve your survivability (e.g. no shield of faith).
Including +2 AC bonus to from magic items or Shield of Faith for the Paladin is included after the slash
Level
Moon Druid
Bear Totem Barbarian (AC 16-18)
Paladin (AC 18-20)
4th
4.2 rounds (Dire Wolf)
3.4 rounds
2.7 rounds / 3.1
6th
4.2 rounds (Polar Bear)
4 rounds
3.4 rounds / 3.8
8th
3.8 rounds (Polar Bear)
4.2 rounds
3.8 rounds / 4.3
10th
4.3 rounds (Giant Scorpion)
4.8 rounds
4.0 rounds / 4.5
12th
3.75 rounds (Air Elemental)
5 rounds
4.1 rounds / 4.6
14th
4.5 rounds (Earth Elemental)
5 rounds
4.3 rounds / 4.8
16th
4.2 rounds (Earth Elemental)
5.2 rounds
4.3 rounds / 4.8
At levels < 5 Moon Druid is absolutely broken and needs to be fixed. But at levels 6+ Moon Druid chooses between being a full caster, or a tanky martial with mediocre-poor DPR. If Moon Druid's survivability in WS is to be nerfed, then their DPR MUST be buffed to rival that of a Paladin, or they MUST keep full access to their spellcasting, otherwise it will always be a bad idea to use your WS in combat.
Side note: Fighters really need a buff, because their DPR is only slightly higher (or sometimes lower depending on build) than a paladin or barbarian and their survivability is significantly lower.
Any reason why you did not use earth elemental at level 10 and 12? And are you including the fact that elementals have resistance to physical damage like the barbarian does while raging?
Any reason why you did not use earth elemental at level 10 and 12? And are you including the fact that elementals have resistance to physical damage like the barbarian does while raging?
1) mainly to show some of the other popular forms so people can get an idea of their relative power. Because IME it is actually relatively rare to use Earth Elemental form because of its slow movement speed and lack of other movement speeds. Earth Elemental is good in enclosed spaces vs non-flying enemies, but most CR enemies have at least one of: teleportation, high movement, or flight, which cripples your Earth Elemental form. Also since Earth Elemental is Large and extremely heavy it is much harder to gain flight (e.g. from a flying mount) than your typical martial character, and because of your low DPR the arcane casters aren't going to waste spellslots giving you flight / haste. Thus, in actual play I've found myself mainly using Air Elemental form rather than Earth Elemental.
2) I didn't because it is only resistance to nonmagical b/s/p which is a lot less common a high CRs than it is at lower levels but can vary radically depending on the DM & campaign (if mainly fighting enemies that can use magic items it's very easy for 0 damage to be non-magical at CR 10+). From my experience I'd estimate no more than 1/2 of attack-based damage would be nonmagical b/s/p at CR 10+ (most enemy weapon attacks have a +Xd6 or +Xd8 other type of damage), which is only a 0.25*0.66 = 16% reduction in damage taken, or in otherwords brings the Moon druid up to ~ 5 rounds survival matching that of the Bear Totem Barbarian.
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I really like a lot about what they are doing with the druid and really worried about some other parts of it. The big one...
PLEASE LET THERE BE MORE CUSTOMIZATION FOR THE STAT BLOCKS!
When wildshaping part of the fun is finding the right form for the task; right tool for the job. Instead of hunting for the right stat block in the manel let the player pick 1 feature (maybe more with level progression OR with the moon druid allowing to switch feature with the bonus action shift). Like: pact tactics, pounce, charge, rampage, gore, etc. That way the player can flavor the form however they want but can make more decisions then just your standard attack. Like they are a lone and have to fight, take rampage - dungeon crawling with the, party using pack tactics - escaping a burning building use running leap; YOU COULD EVEN HAVE MORE FUN AND MAKE UP NEW ANIMAL ABILITIES!! Just something to show the diversity of the animal kingdom, as is it's just kinda boring I hate to say. I think the nerf if HP is completely valid. I think for the land form there should be a little more HP but it's fine. Also multi-task being beyond a higher a level makes sense too. But please REMOVE the "lose access to all other features"! The fun of rage from barbarian or sneak attack from rogue, multi-classing fun, is removed when it comes to wildshaping. Summary: let wildshape be a tool for creative and fun, doing this by giving options and removing the need to hunt through books but still giving access to all the fun in those books.
Other than that. LOVE channel nature as a concept (would love if that was expanded more while leveling as a druid versus primarily being just wildshape adjustments). Love the idea of elemental abilities and light spell casting for the moon druid too! Thank you!
When the first column runs out of HP, they pop another WS use and refill - as a bonus action, so they don't even lose a round of attacks to do so. Or they stay a druid and have full HP plus all their spells. The other two need actual healing resources, especially if they have more combats that day. It's not the same at all.
Well, only if they were knocked out of WS by damage, it's a bonus action to end it otherwise.
Generally speaking, once you hit tier 2, the best way to deal with a druid in wild shape is "only attack if it's free or you really don't have a better target", because its damage is very low for its durability. The same goes for the bear totem barbarian, though if you have a choice between the two, go for the barbarian, it's still a lot more dangerous relative to its durability. However, this isn't the way most DMs think.
Their attacks are also weaker than a Barbarian or Paladin's, though. Don't have time to crunch the numbers, but I doubt a brief boost in action economy makes that much difference in net DPR in this case. Rage is also a bonus action, and functionally doubles the HP of a Bear Barb. Easily gets up to three or four uses a day too, so unless the party is on strange mix of a marathon run while still getting 2 or more short rests in, the Barbarian is getting more uses of their feature. And Rage doesn't have alternative uses the way Wildshape does. Plus once we get into elementals they're using both charges for the change, so it's a one-off. We can nit-pick differences all day, but it's not that much more of a buffer than what some others get, and this assumes fights going to the wall, whereas I expect more often than not a fight will resolve before the Druid burns through their whole pool.
Too late for survey but think the Divine Smite should be tied to the Paladin spell slot level instead character. If not favors much the multiclass and can get overpowered.
But that is in general, many class features should be tied to its class level instead the character level, like i.e. the Barbarian rage, that progress according to the Barbarian level, or Sorcery Points.
The thing is, classes don't have individual slots in a multiclass, except for Pact Magic since it's a distinct system. The levels of various spellcasting classes are aggregated into a total number which tells you how many slots you have. Those slots can be used for any appropriate spell you know/have prepared, and it's the source of the spell that gives it a class identity.
I know, but it can also be target of weird multi-class stuff. Divine Smite for a full-caster is an example. Get a Cleric with 2 levels of Paladin, that Divine Smite is overpowered.
OK it is not for free, as 2 levels are 2 levels, and probably tying it to only 2 levels of Paladin, it would only allow to use your 1st level spell slots, maybe it would make not interesting at all, so it would be just the opposite than before, but it is true that many multi-class options need a fix.
These numbers are assuming you are facing monsters of a CR equal to your level, where 33% of damage is dealt via saving throw effects vs attack rolls.
The numbers assume using BOTH your druid hitpoints AND all of your wildshape uses.
These numbers are based on one-vs-one combat between you and a monster of CR == your level, where 33% of damage is dealt by saving throw abilities vs attack rolls.
Update : I forgot to include the Paladin's aura bonus to their saving throws from level 6 onwards. There survivability has been update to reflect a +3 aura. Moondruid numbers assume you use both uses of your wildshape plus your druid hitpoints (1-2 bonus actions) but no spellslots to heal, Bear Totem assumes you are under the effect of rage for the entire combat and none of the enemies deal psychic damage (psychic damage is extremely rare for monsters so this seems a fair assumption), Paladin assumes you use all of your Lay on Hands on yourself but do not use any spells to improve your survivability (e.g. no shield of faith).
Including +2 AC bonus to from magic items or Shield of Faith for the Paladin is included after the slash
At levels < 5 Moon Druid is absolutely broken and needs to be fixed. But at levels 6+ Moon Druid chooses between being a full caster, or a tanky martial with mediocre-poor DPR. If Moon Druid's survivability in WS is to be nerfed, then their DPR MUST be buffed to rival that of a Paladin, or they MUST keep full access to their spellcasting, otherwise it will always be a bad idea to use your WS in combat.
Side note: Fighters really need a buff, because their DPR is only slightly higher (or sometimes lower depending on build) than a paladin or barbarian and their survivability is significantly lower.
Any reason why you did not use earth elemental at level 10 and 12? And are you including the fact that elementals have resistance to physical damage like the barbarian does while raging?
1) mainly to show some of the other popular forms so people can get an idea of their relative power. Because IME it is actually relatively rare to use Earth Elemental form because of its slow movement speed and lack of other movement speeds. Earth Elemental is good in enclosed spaces vs non-flying enemies, but most CR enemies have at least one of: teleportation, high movement, or flight, which cripples your Earth Elemental form. Also since Earth Elemental is Large and extremely heavy it is much harder to gain flight (e.g. from a flying mount) than your typical martial character, and because of your low DPR the arcane casters aren't going to waste spellslots giving you flight / haste. Thus, in actual play I've found myself mainly using Air Elemental form rather than Earth Elemental.
2) I didn't because it is only resistance to nonmagical b/s/p which is a lot less common a high CRs than it is at lower levels but can vary radically depending on the DM & campaign (if mainly fighting enemies that can use magic items it's very easy for 0 damage to be non-magical at CR 10+). From my experience I'd estimate no more than 1/2 of attack-based damage would be nonmagical b/s/p at CR 10+ (most enemy weapon attacks have a +Xd6 or +Xd8 other type of damage), which is only a 0.25*0.66 = 16% reduction in damage taken, or in otherwords brings the Moon druid up to ~ 5 rounds survival matching that of the Bear Totem Barbarian.