I'm really curious to see where they are going with it.
I get its probably 3-4 months out before we see it but I am curious where they are going given how different the warlock is to other casters.
They have homogenized all the spell casting systems in the game, and the warlocks casting is so unique I don''t see how it works. Like you can't have them only prepare two spells. Well you could, they would just be so laughably bad I don't think they would. Are they just dropping the short rest bit and giving them something like a paladin caster spread. While they could I think that would be a shame, their unique more simple/martial style was a draw for many. Will the mystic arcanum exists and if they do then when you get to mystic arcanums are those now going to be prepared instead of known(that I think would be a good change). Are they going to have access to all arcana spells levels 1-5 and then a trimmed down list for the arcanum. Will they have a trimmed down list for levels 1-5, and if so what schools don't fit the warlock, maybe evocation as they aren't as blaster like as other mages. Though with paladin getting the full list levels 1-5 warlocks getting the same doesn't seem unusual but the arcane list is a bit more robust than the divine list.
Invocations I'd say currently 80% of the invocations are total garbage are they going to rewrite these.
Will pact boons exist or will they get folded into invocations as realistically other than chain they were really basic without invocations enhancing them.
Eldritch blast sounds like it will end up as a class feature currently, presumably its gets more powerful at certain levels and you don't just need a level one dip to get the extra attacks. Will they change its damage type, force damage only effecting creatures while being capable of tossing people around with invocations feels weird to me, it it attacks a life force maybe it should be necrotic or something.
WRT spell slots, there is nothing to say they won't keep them as-is. Pact magic has always been fundamentally different to normal magic rules, I'm not convinced there is any implied changes just because they're changing the others...and if they are changing them, they could strip Warlocks of magic altogether and just make their spells a class feature.
What I'm trying to say is that anything we say for this aspect of the Warlock is going to be baseless speculation. The only reason to believe there will be a change is because of changes to other classes with things that intentionally don't track with Warlocks anyway. While everything is speculation at this point...I think this is particularly uncertain.
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Obviously all speculation (and wishlisting), but it’s reasonable to extrapolate from what we’ve seen so far and consider the implications for the Warlock.
So far, all the classes presented gain their subclass at level 3, so that looks likely for the Warlock. The Cleric has also gained “Holy Orders”, adding another set of options at level 2. These seem broadly similar to the Pact Boons, so they may be acquired at level 2 also. That leaves Pact Magic at level 1. Eldritch Blast also seems to be becoming a feature, so that should be a level 1 feature also. Eldritch Invocations could be level 1 or 2.
The Pact Boons will probably need some work. The new standard version of Find Familiar now scales with spell slot used and includes the ability to make a melee attack (previously only a Warlock feature). Given the move to standard stat blocks, instead of using monster stat blocks, seen for Find Familiar, Find Steed and Wild Shape (and actually for most other summoning or companion features since Tasha’s Cauldron), we’ll probably see the Pact of the Chain adding features such as invisibility to the new FF stat block (rather than choosing a Sprite, Imp, etc).
Thinking about the Cleric’s Holy Orders, I’d quite like to see the Pact of the Tome have a similar feature to the Scholar added, ie be able to add your Charisma modifier to a couple of knowledge-type skill proficiencies. That would give players the chance to have their Warlock be the researcher into forbidden lore that the current PHB describes.
The subclass at level 3 thing is kind of interesting as there are a couple ways they could go with. Like for levels 1 and 2 you are just a more general arcanist looking into mysteries which is fine and personally I'd like especially if they changes the prime stat to int. But a lot of players have their patrons based more on luck or some crazy story and not really based on being intent based, they stumbled into their patron not drove towards it. What does their levels 1-2 represent for them how did they get that spell casting etc does that concept no longer exist. If you are picking your patron at level 3 and your pact boon comes at level 2 it would imply the boon does not come from your patron but from more general arcanist studies.
Another route is they could go with is you make a pact for level 1, but who it is does not determine your subclass. Level 3 you pick a subclass that is more focus themed, you could stick with the subclass abilities but you'd likely rename them a bit.
I guess they could go with you made a pact with a patron but who it is does not get revealed until level 3. Which would feel kind of weak to me.
Or they could go more lol magic it doesn't need to make sense. Which I hope they avoid.
I’ve played a few characters in classes who don’t get their subclass until later, for whom I’d chosen the subclass at character creation. The fact that that choice wasn’t reflected in the mechanics straightaway didn’t really cause any problems. For example, one was a Swarmkeeper Ranger, whose swarm set him on his path as a ranger, but didn’t gain enough power to affect the game until third level. Another was a Circle of Spores Druid who was a Reborn, whom I envisaged as a Zombie animated by her spores but had then regained her sentience. Similarly, a Warlock may already have their patron, but the powers they grant aren’t readily distinguished from those of any other patron until later in their career.
Alternatively, if you trust your DM, they could choose your Patron for you, not revealing them until 3rd level. Up until then, they’ve been sending you gifts like a very creepy secret admirer…
Mechanically and the idea in theory of getting subclasses at L3 don't bother me too much. The problem for me is narratively - you're getting your powers from this patron...surely you would know who is it that you made a pact with? The secret admirer trope is fine for a minority of characters, but every character?
I get a feeling that what will happen is that I'll be telling Warlocks to pick their patron at character creation most of the time, they just don't get the mechanical benefits until L3, which is just odd. Not insurmountable or game destroying by any means, but definitely a bit odd. Kind of like how the Paladin gets divine powers and abilities...before they swear their oath. It's just conceptually odd to me.
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Mechanically and the idea in theory of getting subclasses at L3 don't bother me too much. The problem for me is narratively - you're getting your powers from this patron...surely you would know who is it that you made a pact with? The secret admirer trope is fine for a minority of characters, but every character?
I get a feeling that what will happen is that I'll be telling Warlocks to pick their patron at character creation most of the time, they just don't get the mechanical benefits until L3, which is just odd. Not insurmountable or game destroying by any means, but definitely a bit odd. Kind of like how the Paladin gets divine powers and abilities...before they swear their oath. It's just conceptually odd to me.
Yeah the paladin always felt odd to me I kind of feel they should basically just be a warrior until level 3 mechanically. The setting narrative of I just swear an oath and the force of my will gives me magic seems weird as well. If magic is that easy you'd think you'd see it all over the place. And then it requires components which others can recognize trough arcana/religion? checks to determine what spell you are casting which seems weird since its something you do on your own through force of your determination to your oath. especially since its always divine magic instead of like oath of the ancients giving you primal etc. Which is why in my setting there are still gods behind it, gods who support those oaths and want that ideal pushed in the world.
Not enough people played a paladin in my game and levels 1-3 are pretty fast so when it rarely happens so it hasn't been a huge issue. But I have been thinking of slowing things down a bit in the next campaign and the narrative is just odd and if someone plays a paladin it may crop up.
I’ve played a few characters in classes who don’t get their subclass until later, for whom I’d chosen the subclass at character creation. The fact that that choice wasn’t reflected in the mechanics straightaway didn’t really cause any problems. For example, one was a Swarmkeeper Ranger, whose swarm set him on his path as a ranger, but didn’t gain enough power to affect the game until third level. Another was a Circle of Spores Druid who was a Reborn, whom I envisaged as a Zombie animated by her spores but had then regained her sentience. Similarly, a Warlock may already have their patron, but the powers they grant aren’t readily distinguished from those of any other patron until later in their career.
Alternatively, if you trust your DM, they could choose your Patron for you, not revealing them until 3rd level. Up until then, they’ve been sending you gifts like a very creepy secret admirer…
Yeah, that is how I'd roleplay it as a player but its not baked into the mechanics and feels weird mechanically. If you are a cleric of the god of justice and take the murder innocents domain at level 3 it kind of feels weird. Some settings it works for clerics as there may be more one god type scenarios where they represent all things, the god of humans, the god of elves etc and they represent all that a human/elf can be. But in settings where gods are more tied to a narrower range of concepts it feels off. None of which is insurmountable. They can write into the game for example that magic gained from levels 1-2 is from the divine realms but not from a specific god and general religious training can get you there level 3 or level 2 spells come from a specific god and that is where you pick a domain. But I think they should write those things into the game so the settings make more sense.
I think it’s overall a good thing that there is a rather “loose” linkage between the mechanics and the narrative, as it leaves a lot of room for players to come up with their own interpretation of what those mechanics mean for their characters. A mechanic might not be perfect for my character, but at least it doesn’t invalidate it, or your character, or Uncle Tom Cobbleigh’s character.
and if so what schools don't fit the warlock, maybe evocation as they aren't as blaster like as other mages.
This statement has left me stunned. Warlocks are the best blasters in the game, and they are by design. Unless they want to change their primary role, which I wouldn't mind, Eldritch Blast will still be the best offensive cantrip in the game. And they can improve it in various ways as before. In any case, what they would take away would be the schools that are more focused on utility, which is difficult to do by schools. But they could remove illusion and/or divination spells, although that would go against the imaginary of a warlock a bit. But to be honest, the imaginary of a warlock is not fulfilled in 5e. But in the end, what is clear is that the three spell lists is, in my opinion, a bad design decision. I understand that they do this to simplify the game, but it brings with it a number of thematic issues for many classes. And the warlock is the prime example of that.
Yes, the three spell lists decision is curious. I’m not sure it was done for convenience, as Jeremy Crawford talked about providing class-specific lists for easy reference. It’s obviously also created quite a few complications, with spells having to be moved between schools (e.g. healing spells switched from Evocation to Abjuration to leave them available to Rangers; Bards being given a whole feature to retain access to healing spells). No wonder the Artificer doesn’t seem to be planned to be added to the PHB! I presume the intent is partly thematic and partly to provide an easy keyword to grant eligibility for Feats and Magic Items.
and if so what schools don't fit the warlock, maybe evocation as they aren't as blaster like as other mages.
This statement has left me stunned. Warlocks are the best blasters in the game, and they are by design. Unless they want to change their primary role, which I wouldn't mind, Eldritch Blast will still be the best offensive cantrip in the game. And they can improve it in various ways as before. In any case, what they would take away would be the schools that are more focused on utility, which is difficult to do by schools. But they could remove illusion and/or divination spells, although that would go against the imaginary of a warlock a bit. But to be honest, the imaginary of a warlock is not fulfilled in 5e. But in the end, what is clear is that the three spell lists is, in my opinion, a bad design decision. I understand that they do this to simplify the game, but it brings with it a number of thematic issues for many classes. And the warlock is the prime example of that.
I'm talking about their leveled spell list. Yeah they have eldritch blast but levled blasting evocation spells to the core warlock is hellish rebuke, witch bolt, shatter and sickening radiance across levels 1-5, ill throw in synaptic static as well since even though its an enchantment its a mental fireball.
Their list for known spells is very light on blasting for a arcane mage type.
Honestly, the "Mages" UA is probably gonna be the biggest dumpster fire yet. They've already shown with Bard that they are not interested in making the Arcane casters meaningfully distinct from Divine/Primal in terms how they handle their spells, and if they get rid of spontaneous casting and have everyone prepping the same way, I fail to see how they can make Wizards and Sorcerers truly distinct classes. Or, rather, I fail to see how they can avoid making Wizards inferior to Sorcerers, if both get access to the full list of Arcane spells in the exact same way and Sorcerers retain their Metamagic. The whole point of being a Wizard was having the biggest class spell list and, on the Arcane side, the most flexibility in prepped spells, and they've apparently decided to nix all that.
On top of this, it seems like either they'll just toss Pact Magic and blend Warlocks into the rest of this painfully homogenized caster structure or Warlock will end up as an even weaker caster pick since they'll be trailing way behind everyone else in spells at hand.
I wonder if the Wizard might get to count all of the spells in their spell book as prepared? I can’t see an obvious way to make the Warlock work with the 1D&D prepared spell system. They might choose to leave Pact Magic as is.
The subclass at level 3 thing is kind of interesting as there are a couple ways they could go with. Like for levels 1 and 2 you are just a more general arcanist looking into mysteries which is fine and personally I'd like especially if they changes the prime stat to int. But a lot of players have their patrons based more on luck or some crazy story and not really based on being intent based, they stumbled into their patron not drove towards it. What does their levels 1-2 represent for them how did they get that spell casting etc does that concept no longer exist. If you are picking your patron at level 3 and your pact boon comes at level 2 it would imply the boon does not come from your patron but from more general arcanist studies.
Another route is they could go with is you make a pact for level 1, but who it is does not determine your subclass. Level 3 you pick a subclass that is more focus themed, you could stick with the subclass abilities but you'd likely rename them a bit.
I guess they could go with you made a pact with a patron but who it is does not get revealed until level 3. Which would feel kind of weak to me.
Or they could go more lol magic it doesn't need to make sense. Which I hope they avoid.
This was my thoughts on Warlocks getting their subclass at level 3 in another thread. (see below)
Warlocks, I agree are the trickiest, but I can see them as dabblers in the occult. They gain some measure of power (spellcasting at level 1) not because they made a deal with an entity, but because their studies, desire for power, or delving in dark places, has led them to tap into the energies that fuel arcane magic (they are not trained like wizards so have limited spellcasting abilities/spell slots) and it is when they gain a certain amount of power that, either by choice or accident, contact with an entity happens and opens up the true power of the patron they interact with. I could see spellcasting at level 1 and Pact Boon (like Holy Orders) at level 2. Pact of the Blade, Chain, Tome, and Talisman are all generic enough that a patron isn't needed to gain these powers. And then maybe invocations not until level 3 when they make their deal with a patron.
Edit: As for speculation, I don't see them changing Warlock's spellcasting too much. They will have access to the Arcane list, probably all schools, and their Mystic Arcanum will be relatively untouched.
Spellcasting at level 1. How they want to arrange Pact Boons, which are not tied to Patron necessarily, will probably be level 2. Then Patron/Subclasss at level 3 like everyone else.
Honestly, the "Mages" UA is probably gonna be the biggest dumpster fire yet. They've already shown with Bard that they are not interested in making the Arcane casters meaningfully distinct from Divine/Primal in terms how they handle their spells, and if they get rid of spontaneous casting and have everyone prepping the same way, I fail to see how they can make Wizards and Sorcerers truly distinct classes. Or, rather, I fail to see how they can avoid making Wizards inferior to Sorcerers, if both get access to the full list of Arcane spells in the exact same way and Sorcerers retain their Metamagic. The whole point of being a Wizard was having the biggest class spell list and, on the Arcane side, the most flexibility in prepped spells, and they've apparently decided to nix all that.
On top of this, it seems like either they'll just toss Pact Magic and blend Warlocks into the rest of this painfully homogenized caster structure or Warlock will end up as an even weaker caster pick since they'll be trailing way behind everyone else in spells at hand.
I am assuming that Sorcerers will not have access to the entire Arcane list. They will have Evocation, for sure, but some schools may be omitted from the Sorcerer list. With possibly, some out of school spells showing up on their "additional spell lists" if they have them, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul.
Honestly, the "Mages" UA is probably gonna be the biggest dumpster fire yet. They've already shown with Bard that they are not interested in making the Arcane casters meaningfully distinct from Divine/Primal in terms how they handle their spells, and if they get rid of spontaneous casting and have everyone prepping the same way, I fail to see how they can make Wizards and Sorcerers truly distinct classes. Or, rather, I fail to see how they can avoid making Wizards inferior to Sorcerers, if both get access to the full list of Arcane spells in the exact same way and Sorcerers retain their Metamagic. The whole point of being a Wizard was having the biggest class spell list and, on the Arcane side, the most flexibility in prepped spells, and they've apparently decided to nix all that.
On top of this, it seems like either they'll just toss Pact Magic and blend Warlocks into the rest of this painfully homogenized caster structure or Warlock will end up as an even weaker caster pick since they'll be trailing way behind everyone else in spells at hand.
I am assuming that Sorcerers will not have access to the entire Arcane list. They will have Evocation, for sure, but some schools may be omitted from the Sorcerer list. With possibly, some out of school spells showing up on their "additional spell lists" if they have them, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul.
They will likely not get conjuration as they have very few spells from that school. I am not sure what else they will lose. But it does remain if 1 class has access to every spell from 6 of 8 arcane schools to prepare from every day and another class has access to only the spells in their spellbook, the 2nd class is looking kind of rough. Wizards would end up being the least versatile full spell casting class instead of what they are traditionally the most versatile.
Honestly, the "Mages" UA is probably gonna be the biggest dumpster fire yet. They've already shown with Bard that they are not interested in making the Arcane casters meaningfully distinct from Divine/Primal in terms how they handle their spells, and if they get rid of spontaneous casting and have everyone prepping the same way, I fail to see how they can make Wizards and Sorcerers truly distinct classes. Or, rather, I fail to see how they can avoid making Wizards inferior to Sorcerers, if both get access to the full list of Arcane spells in the exact same way and Sorcerers retain their Metamagic. The whole point of being a Wizard was having the biggest class spell list and, on the Arcane side, the most flexibility in prepped spells, and they've apparently decided to nix all that.
On top of this, it seems like either they'll just toss Pact Magic and blend Warlocks into the rest of this painfully homogenized caster structure or Warlock will end up as an even weaker caster pick since they'll be trailing way behind everyone else in spells at hand.
I am assuming that Sorcerers will not have access to the entire Arcane list. They will have Evocation, for sure, but some schools may be omitted from the Sorcerer list. With possibly, some out of school spells showing up on their "additional spell lists" if they have them, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul.
They will likely not get conjuration as they have very few spells from that school. I am not sure what else they will lose. But it does remain if 1 class has access to every spell from 6 of 8 arcane schools to prepare from every day and another class has access to only the spells in their spellbook, the 2nd class is looking kind of rough. Wizards would end up being the least versatile full spell casting class instead of what they are traditionally the most versatile.
Who knows. Maybe wizards will lose their spellbook altogether. Or they might be able to transcribe spells from other spell list (primal or divine) from certain schools into it. Or they may leave wizards the only class in the game that is not a prepared caster like the others. Hard to say at this point
Honestly, the "Mages" UA is probably gonna be the biggest dumpster fire yet. They've already shown with Bard that they are not interested in making the Arcane casters meaningfully distinct from Divine/Primal in terms how they handle their spells, and if they get rid of spontaneous casting and have everyone prepping the same way, I fail to see how they can make Wizards and Sorcerers truly distinct classes. Or, rather, I fail to see how they can avoid making Wizards inferior to Sorcerers, if both get access to the full list of Arcane spells in the exact same way and Sorcerers retain their Metamagic. The whole point of being a Wizard was having the biggest class spell list and, on the Arcane side, the most flexibility in prepped spells, and they've apparently decided to nix all that.
On top of this, it seems like either they'll just toss Pact Magic and blend Warlocks into the rest of this painfully homogenized caster structure or Warlock will end up as an even weaker caster pick since they'll be trailing way behind everyone else in spells at hand.
I am assuming that Sorcerers will not have access to the entire Arcane list. They will have Evocation, for sure, but some schools may be omitted from the Sorcerer list. With possibly, some out of school spells showing up on their "additional spell lists" if they have them, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul.
They will likely not get conjuration as they have very few spells from that school. I am not sure what else they will lose. But it does remain if 1 class has access to every spell from 6 of 8 arcane schools to prepare from every day and another class has access to only the spells in their spellbook, the 2nd class is looking kind of rough. Wizards would end up being the least versatile full spell casting class instead of what they are traditionally the most versatile.
Who knows. Maybe wizards will lose their spellbook altogether. Or they might be able to transcribe spells from other spell list (primal or divine) from certain schools into it. Or they may leave wizards the only class in the game that is not a prepared caster like the others. Hard to say at this point
True, it just makes me wonder if they really thought through how they changed all the classes so far switching to being prepared casters. It is weird to have a unifying system in place then on the last class go ah well except them.
They very well could make them like the other casters in the UA but allow them to ritual cast from their spellbook without needing them to be prepared. Yes, it makes the spellbook much less useful than currently in 5E. But gives them access to all the arcane spells to choose from to prepare. Maybe the spellbook will just be what the Ritual Caster feat book was.
I'm really curious to see where they are going with it.
I get its probably 3-4 months out before we see it but I am curious where they are going given how different the warlock is to other casters.
They have homogenized all the spell casting systems in the game, and the warlocks casting is so unique I don''t see how it works. Like you can't have them only prepare two spells. Well you could, they would just be so laughably bad I don't think they would. Are they just dropping the short rest bit and giving them something like a paladin caster spread. While they could I think that would be a shame, their unique more simple/martial style was a draw for many. Will the mystic arcanum exists and if they do then when you get to mystic arcanums are those now going to be prepared instead of known(that I think would be a good change). Are they going to have access to all arcana spells levels 1-5 and then a trimmed down list for the arcanum. Will they have a trimmed down list for levels 1-5, and if so what schools don't fit the warlock, maybe evocation as they aren't as blaster like as other mages. Though with paladin getting the full list levels 1-5 warlocks getting the same doesn't seem unusual but the arcane list is a bit more robust than the divine list.
Invocations I'd say currently 80% of the invocations are total garbage are they going to rewrite these.
Will pact boons exist or will they get folded into invocations as realistically other than chain they were really basic without invocations enhancing them.
Eldritch blast sounds like it will end up as a class feature currently, presumably its gets more powerful at certain levels and you don't just need a level one dip to get the extra attacks. Will they change its damage type, force damage only effecting creatures while being capable of tossing people around with invocations feels weird to me, it it attacks a life force maybe it should be necrotic or something.
WRT spell slots, there is nothing to say they won't keep them as-is. Pact magic has always been fundamentally different to normal magic rules, I'm not convinced there is any implied changes just because they're changing the others...and if they are changing them, they could strip Warlocks of magic altogether and just make their spells a class feature.
What I'm trying to say is that anything we say for this aspect of the Warlock is going to be baseless speculation. The only reason to believe there will be a change is because of changes to other classes with things that intentionally don't track with Warlocks anyway. While everything is speculation at this point...I think this is particularly uncertain.
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Obviously all speculation (and wishlisting), but it’s reasonable to extrapolate from what we’ve seen so far and consider the implications for the Warlock.
So far, all the classes presented gain their subclass at level 3, so that looks likely for the Warlock. The Cleric has also gained “Holy Orders”, adding another set of options at level 2. These seem broadly similar to the Pact Boons, so they may be acquired at level 2 also. That leaves Pact Magic at level 1. Eldritch Blast also seems to be becoming a feature, so that should be a level 1 feature also. Eldritch Invocations could be level 1 or 2.
The Pact Boons will probably need some work. The new standard version of Find Familiar now scales with spell slot used and includes the ability to make a melee attack (previously only a Warlock feature). Given the move to standard stat blocks, instead of using monster stat blocks, seen for Find Familiar, Find Steed and Wild Shape (and actually for most other summoning or companion features since Tasha’s Cauldron), we’ll probably see the Pact of the Chain adding features such as invisibility to the new FF stat block (rather than choosing a Sprite, Imp, etc).
Thinking about the Cleric’s Holy Orders, I’d quite like to see the Pact of the Tome have a similar feature to the Scholar added, ie be able to add your Charisma modifier to a couple of knowledge-type skill proficiencies. That would give players the chance to have their Warlock be the researcher into forbidden lore that the current PHB describes.
The subclass at level 3 thing is kind of interesting as there are a couple ways they could go with. Like for levels 1 and 2 you are just a more general arcanist looking into mysteries which is fine and personally I'd like especially if they changes the prime stat to int. But a lot of players have their patrons based more on luck or some crazy story and not really based on being intent based, they stumbled into their patron not drove towards it. What does their levels 1-2 represent for them how did they get that spell casting etc does that concept no longer exist. If you are picking your patron at level 3 and your pact boon comes at level 2 it would imply the boon does not come from your patron but from more general arcanist studies.
Another route is they could go with is you make a pact for level 1, but who it is does not determine your subclass. Level 3 you pick a subclass that is more focus themed, you could stick with the subclass abilities but you'd likely rename them a bit.
I guess they could go with you made a pact with a patron but who it is does not get revealed until level 3. Which would feel kind of weak to me.
Or they could go more lol magic it doesn't need to make sense. Which I hope they avoid.
I’ve played a few characters in classes who don’t get their subclass until later, for whom I’d chosen the subclass at character creation. The fact that that choice wasn’t reflected in the mechanics straightaway didn’t really cause any problems. For example, one was a Swarmkeeper Ranger, whose swarm set him on his path as a ranger, but didn’t gain enough power to affect the game until third level. Another was a Circle of Spores Druid who was a Reborn, whom I envisaged as a Zombie animated by her spores but had then regained her sentience. Similarly, a Warlock may already have their patron, but the powers they grant aren’t readily distinguished from those of any other patron until later in their career.
Alternatively, if you trust your DM, they could choose your Patron for you, not revealing them until 3rd level. Up until then, they’ve been sending you gifts like a very creepy secret admirer…
Mechanically and the idea in theory of getting subclasses at L3 don't bother me too much. The problem for me is narratively - you're getting your powers from this patron...surely you would know who is it that you made a pact with? The secret admirer trope is fine for a minority of characters, but every character?
I get a feeling that what will happen is that I'll be telling Warlocks to pick their patron at character creation most of the time, they just don't get the mechanical benefits until L3, which is just odd. Not insurmountable or game destroying by any means, but definitely a bit odd. Kind of like how the Paladin gets divine powers and abilities...before they swear their oath. It's just conceptually odd to me.
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Yeah the paladin always felt odd to me I kind of feel they should basically just be a warrior until level 3 mechanically. The setting narrative of I just swear an oath and the force of my will gives me magic seems weird as well. If magic is that easy you'd think you'd see it all over the place. And then it requires components which others can recognize trough arcana/religion? checks to determine what spell you are casting which seems weird since its something you do on your own through force of your determination to your oath. especially since its always divine magic instead of like oath of the ancients giving you primal etc. Which is why in my setting there are still gods behind it, gods who support those oaths and want that ideal pushed in the world.
Not enough people played a paladin in my game and levels 1-3 are pretty fast so when it rarely happens so it hasn't been a huge issue. But I have been thinking of slowing things down a bit in the next campaign and the narrative is just odd and if someone plays a paladin it may crop up.
Yeah, that is how I'd roleplay it as a player but its not baked into the mechanics and feels weird mechanically. If you are a cleric of the god of justice and take the murder innocents domain at level 3 it kind of feels weird. Some settings it works for clerics as there may be more one god type scenarios where they represent all things, the god of humans, the god of elves etc and they represent all that a human/elf can be. But in settings where gods are more tied to a narrower range of concepts it feels off. None of which is insurmountable. They can write into the game for example that magic gained from levels 1-2 is from the divine realms but not from a specific god and general religious training can get you there level 3 or level 2 spells come from a specific god and that is where you pick a domain. But I think they should write those things into the game so the settings make more sense.
I think it’s overall a good thing that there is a rather “loose” linkage between the mechanics and the narrative, as it leaves a lot of room for players to come up with their own interpretation of what those mechanics mean for their characters. A mechanic might not be perfect for my character, but at least it doesn’t invalidate it, or your character, or Uncle Tom Cobbleigh’s character.
This statement has left me stunned. Warlocks are the best blasters in the game, and they are by design. Unless they want to change their primary role, which I wouldn't mind, Eldritch Blast will still be the best offensive cantrip in the game. And they can improve it in various ways as before.
In any case, what they would take away would be the schools that are more focused on utility, which is difficult to do by schools. But they could remove illusion and/or divination spells, although that would go against the imaginary of a warlock a bit. But to be honest, the imaginary of a warlock is not fulfilled in 5e.
But in the end, what is clear is that the three spell lists is, in my opinion, a bad design decision. I understand that they do this to simplify the game, but it brings with it a number of thematic issues for many classes. And the warlock is the prime example of that.
Yes, the three spell lists decision is curious. I’m not sure it was done for convenience, as Jeremy Crawford talked about providing class-specific lists for easy reference. It’s obviously also created quite a few complications, with spells having to be moved between schools (e.g. healing spells switched from Evocation to Abjuration to leave them available to Rangers; Bards being given a whole feature to retain access to healing spells). No wonder the Artificer doesn’t seem to be planned to be added to the PHB!
I presume the intent is partly thematic and partly to provide an easy keyword to grant eligibility for Feats and Magic Items.
I'm talking about their leveled spell list. Yeah they have eldritch blast but levled blasting evocation spells to the core warlock is hellish rebuke, witch bolt, shatter and sickening radiance across levels 1-5, ill throw in synaptic static as well since even though its an enchantment its a mental fireball.
Their list for known spells is very light on blasting for a arcane mage type.
Honestly, the "Mages" UA is probably gonna be the biggest dumpster fire yet. They've already shown with Bard that they are not interested in making the Arcane casters meaningfully distinct from Divine/Primal in terms how they handle their spells, and if they get rid of spontaneous casting and have everyone prepping the same way, I fail to see how they can make Wizards and Sorcerers truly distinct classes. Or, rather, I fail to see how they can avoid making Wizards inferior to Sorcerers, if both get access to the full list of Arcane spells in the exact same way and Sorcerers retain their Metamagic. The whole point of being a Wizard was having the biggest class spell list and, on the Arcane side, the most flexibility in prepped spells, and they've apparently decided to nix all that.
On top of this, it seems like either they'll just toss Pact Magic and blend Warlocks into the rest of this painfully homogenized caster structure or Warlock will end up as an even weaker caster pick since they'll be trailing way behind everyone else in spells at hand.
I wonder if the Wizard might get to count all of the spells in their spell book as prepared?
I can’t see an obvious way to make the Warlock work with the 1D&D prepared spell system. They might choose to leave Pact Magic as is.
This was my thoughts on Warlocks getting their subclass at level 3 in another thread. (see below)
Edit: As for speculation, I don't see them changing Warlock's spellcasting too much. They will have access to the Arcane list, probably all schools, and their Mystic Arcanum will be relatively untouched.
Spellcasting at level 1. How they want to arrange Pact Boons, which are not tied to Patron necessarily, will probably be level 2. Then Patron/Subclasss at level 3 like everyone else.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I am assuming that Sorcerers will not have access to the entire Arcane list. They will have Evocation, for sure, but some schools may be omitted from the Sorcerer list. With possibly, some out of school spells showing up on their "additional spell lists" if they have them, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
They will likely not get conjuration as they have very few spells from that school. I am not sure what else they will lose. But it does remain if 1 class has access to every spell from 6 of 8 arcane schools to prepare from every day and another class has access to only the spells in their spellbook, the 2nd class is looking kind of rough. Wizards would end up being the least versatile full spell casting class instead of what they are traditionally the most versatile.
Who knows. Maybe wizards will lose their spellbook altogether. Or they might be able to transcribe spells from other spell list (primal or divine) from certain schools into it. Or they may leave wizards the only class in the game that is not a prepared caster like the others. Hard to say at this point
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
True, it just makes me wonder if they really thought through how they changed all the classes so far switching to being prepared casters. It is weird to have a unifying system in place then on the last class go ah well except them.
They very well could make them like the other casters in the UA but allow them to ritual cast from their spellbook without needing them to be prepared. Yes, it makes the spellbook much less useful than currently in 5E. But gives them access to all the arcane spells to choose from to prepare. Maybe the spellbook will just be what the Ritual Caster feat book was.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?