Honestly, I would prefer it if wild shape were either (a) one or more spells, or (b) mostly a feature of the moon druid. Move channel nature to other purposes, such as letting you talk to and befriend animals, which are clearly things any nature-themed character would be expected to do.
Making it a spell makes it susceptible to counterspell and dispel magic. It also makes means other classes could use it, killing the flavor. Considering how many people are complaining about find steed and smite spells I can imagine the outrage of the bard gaining access to Wild shape.
If the moon druid is intended to mostly rely on their Wild Shape and go into combat maybe it should use spell slots as a extra resource while using Wild Shape. Maybe some feature that allows you to spend a spell slot when you use Wild Shape and gain Temp HP based on the level of the spell slot.
A Druid who wildshapes LOSES spellcasting ability while wildshaped. So the balance is there. If you don't play Druids regularly you fail to notice that this is a significant tradeoff.
I play druids regularly and am perfectly aware that being unable to cast spells is a significant tradeoff, but it's still a separate resource -- using wild shape does not reduce the number of spells I can cast in a day.
Or we could take inspiration from cleric which is the most similar class in terms of play style and have features other than just channel nature as part of the base class. Here's some directly inspired by One D&D Cleric:
Druidic Rites At 2nd level you focus on one set of rites that connect your druid with the natural environment. Choose one of the below:
Elemental Rites You gain proficiency in Arcana skill checks, and when you finish a long rest you can imbue your armour with an element of your choice and gain resistance to that damage type: Fire, Lightning, Thunder, or Cold.
Herbalist Rites You gain proficiency in Nature skill checks and Herbalism tools, which you can use to create magical poultices, teas, soups, and remedies. To do so you imbue the creation with one abjuration spell you have prepared, expending a spell slot as normal. Any creature can use an action to use your creation on themselves or on another creature within 5ft of them affected them with the imbued spell for its normal duration. You creations retain their magic until you complete a long rest.
Animalist Rites You gain proficiency in Animal Handling and Perception, you can communicate simple idea to any Beast with an intelligence of 6 or lower, and have advantage on checks to befriend or convince Beasts to aid you.
Arboreal Rites You grow a thick layer of bark or moss over your body, you gain a +2 bonus to your AC. You can use an action to cause an area covered in dense non-magical plants up to a 60ft radius of yourself to either become difficult terrain or cease to be difficult terrain.
Ritual Rites You can cast any spell on the primal spell list that has the ritual tag as a ritual without needing to prepare it. The spell must of a level that you could normally prepare to cast it in this way.
Primal Rites You can prepare two additional spells from the primal spell list of 0th level.
Fierce Companion
Starting at 5th level, when you summon a familiar using your Channel Nature, your familiar gains a bonus to their hit points and damage rolls equal to your druid level.
Water & Flying Forms
When you use Wildshape you can choose aquatic and flying forms.
Druidic Rites
At 9th level you expand your knowledge of Druidic Rites. You gain the benefits of one additional Druidic Rite.
Channel Elements
At 11th level, When you cast a spell that deals damage of one of the following types: fire, cold, lightning, thunder, poison. You can expend one use of your Channel Nature to deal additional damage equal to your Wisdom modifier + your druid level to one damage roll of that spell. Alternatively, when you take damage of one of the listed types you can expend one use of your Channel Nature to gain resistance to that instance of damage.
Command Nature
At 18th level, as an action you can call on the forces of nature for aid. You can cast any spell from the primal spell list of your choice, even one that you do not have prepared. you must expend a spell slot as normal. If the spell normally requires you concentration, it doesn't when cast using this feature. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.
Major problem is you have drastically improved the base class. This might be fine depending on what they do with the sorcerer and wizard, but as of now you have improved all druids Spellcasting as part of the base class. Also your 5th lvl ability is OP compared 5e Ranger companions.
Honestly, I would prefer it if wild shape were either (a) one or more spells, or (b) mostly a feature of the moon druid. Move channel nature to other purposes, such as letting you talk to and befriend animals, which are clearly things any nature-themed character would be expected to do.
Making it a spell makes it susceptible to counterspell and dispel magic. It also makes means other classes could use it, killing the flavor. Considering how many people are complaining about find steed and smite spells I can imagine the outrage of the bard gaining access to Wild shape.
If the moon druid is intended to mostly rely on their Wild Shape and go into combat maybe it should use spell slots as a extra resource while using Wild Shape. Maybe some feature that allows you to spend a spell slot when you use Wild Shape and gain Temp HP based on the level of the spell slot.
5e Druid already did that as part of combat Wild shape, it let you expend a spell slot to restore hp as a bonus action. The UA version just let you cast abjuration spells instead.
I play druids regularly and am perfectly aware that being unable to cast spells is a significant tradeoff, but it's still a separate resource -- using wild shape does not reduce the number of spells I can cast in a day.
Wild Shape as a spell is worse than smite spells and find steed as a spell with the 3 spell list. Honestly it would be bad with 5e unique spell list since it would need to be a 1st level spell that scales. So many people would take especially rogues would take magic innate Druid for that spell. There are already two spells based on wildshape in 5e. Animal Shapes 8th level and Shapechange 9th level. Since I love experiments and it’s a basic rules spell let’s try to adjust animal shapes into a wild shape spell.
Wild Shape
ConcentrationTransmutation • V, S
1 Action
1 Hour
Self
Shapechanging
LEVEL
1st
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
Self
COMPONENTS
V, S
DURATION
Concentration 1 hour
SCHOOL
Transmutation
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Shapechanging
Your magic turns you into a beast. You transform yourself into the form of a Large or smaller beast with a challenge rating of 1/4 your level or lower (rounded down). This beast can’t have a swim speed or a fly speed.
The transformation lasts for the duration, or until your form drops to 0 hit points or dies. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You assume the hit points of your new form, and when you revert to your normal form, you returns to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. If you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious. You are limited in the actions you can perform by the nature of your new form, and it can't speak or cast spells.
Your gear melds into the new form. You can't activate, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of your equipment.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the duration is increased by 2 hours for each level cast above 1st. When you cast this using a 3rd level spell slot or higher you can choose beast that have swim speeds. When you cast this using 5th level spell slots or higher you can choose beast that have a fly speed.
Wild Shape as a spell is worse than smite spells and find steed as a spell with the 3 spell list.
The reason smite spells and find steed for clerics are a problem is because the paladin is a half-caster, so giving them to a full caster when they're balanced for a half-caster winds up overpowered. That's not an issue for druids -- they're already full casters.
Wild Shape as a spell is worse than smite spells and find steed as a spell with the 3 spell list.
The reason smite spells and find steed are a problem is because the paladin is a half-caster, so giving them to a full caster when they're balanced for a half-caster winds up overpowered. That's not an issue for druids -- they're already full casters.
False the main reason everyone complained about it was not balance it was loss of identity. Smite spells aren’t inherently more powerful than other options full casters have. Yes full casters who get a better version of find steed but they would be spending a higher level spell slot so it doesn’t break balance at all. Now Find steed is broken as a spell because it creates a permanent creature for just the cost of a spell slot, but it’s hard to argue smite spells have a balance problem at all. This Wildshape spell would definitely be a balance problem because any rogue with it is far superior in scouting than any rogue without it. Any heavily armored fighter should take magic initiate to get it as well. No more stealth mission problems.
Exactly the UA isn’t hell bent on making all the features WS it only spread the feature across levels instead of having one feature that gave all the same abilities at different levels.
Actually, I've said this very thing in a previous thread (Here starting at post 117). That wasn't my point. It really isn't much different than the 2014 druid but a few things thrown in, like Healing Blossoms. Which I don't think is a very good ability and could absolutely be used for a better, more druidic, feature.
There is no more focus in the UA on Wild shape than there was in 5e. The simply spread it out across multiple features and levels to remove the look of dead levels. Also the Base 5e Wizard has one feature that aids Spellcasting until 18th level. Arcane Recovery is it. Also the Base 5e cleric does not have a single feature that aids its Spellcasting at any level.
See my response above. The Cleric UA has Divine Spark (which will be changed to not use PB) which technically doesn't aid spellcasting, but is a feature as part of Channel Divinity that is thematic to the Cleric. Healing Blossoms is a weaker version of that and not very thematic despite the spectral flowers.
The UA Cleric also has the Thaumaturge Holy Order, which gives a extra cantrip and 1 use of CD on a short rest. I little better supporting casting.
The UA Cleric also has Blessed Strikes which aids spellcasting in giving extra radiant (thematic) damage to a cantrip.
The UA Cleric also has Divine Intervention and a Greater version at 18th level. Not an aid to spellcasting, I know, but at least it is something different for the base class. The UA druid (and 2014 druid) have WS as basically the one and only class feature. It would be like the Cleric having Turn Undead as their primary feature and giving them multiple class features to boost just that, and only that. No Divine Intervention, nothing. Just Turn Undead and features to support only that.
False the main reason everyone complained about it was not balance it was loss of identity.
People complained because clerics were better at smiting than paladins. That's a nonfactor when the source class is a full caster.
And why do people care that clerics are better at smiting than Paladins? It’s not about balance. It’s because they identity of Paladins in 5e has been smiting. You are making my point for me. So back on topic why is it okay to make Wild Shape a spell that others can use and not okay for smite spells. Why is bad to have a smite spell using Cleric or Ranger, but not bad to have a wild shape using wizard or rogue? I see an identity problem in both cases
And why do people care that clerics are better at smiting than Paladins? It’s not about balance. It’s because they identity of Paladins in 5e has been smiting. You are making my point for me. So back on topic why is it okay to make Wild Shape a spell that others can use and not okay for smite spells. Why is bad to have a smite spell using Cleric or Ranger, but not bad to have a wild shape using wizard or rogue? I see an identity problem in both cases
Being as good as another class isn't a problem, any more than it's a problem that a bard can learn fireball, which is certainly a signature ability for wizards.
Also, I would still expect subclass features of moon druid to enhance shapeshifting spells. Getting the ability for a non-druid is similar to getting it on a non-moon-druid -- it's an interesting utility spell but not all that core to the class concept.
Wild shape was a ribbon feature in previous editions, not a core capability, and if you're not a moon druid it should be a ribbon feature in One D&D.
Exactly the UA isn’t hell bent on making all the features WS it only spread the feature across levels instead of having one feature that gave all the same abilities at different levels.
Actually, I've said this very thing in a previous thread (Here starting at post 117). That wasn't my point. It really isn't much different than the 2014 druid but a few things thrown in, like Healing Blossoms. Which I don't think is a very good ability and could absolutely be used for a better, more druidic, feature.
There is no more focus in the UA on Wild shape than there was in 5e. The simply spread it out across multiple features and levels to remove the look of dead levels. Also the Base 5e Wizard has one feature that aids Spellcasting until 18th level. Arcane Recovery is it. Also the Base 5e cleric does not have a single feature that aids its Spellcasting at any level.
See my response above. The Cleric UA has Divine Spark (which will be changed to not use PB) which technically doesn't aid spellcasting, but is a feature as part of Channel Divinity that is thematic to the Cleric. Healing Blossoms is a weaker version of that and not very thematic despite the spectral flowers.
The UA Cleric also has the Thaumaturge Holy Order, which gives a extra cantrip and 1 use of CD on a short rest. I little better supporting casting.
The UA Cleric also has Blessed Strikes which aids spellcasting in giving extra radiant (thematic) damage to a cantrip.
The UA Cleric also has Divine Intervention and a Greater version at 18th level. Not an aid to spellcasting, I know, but at least it is something different for the base class. The UA druid (and 2014 druid) have WS as basically the one and only class feature. It would be like the Cleric having Turn Undead as their primary feature and giving them multiple class features to boost just that, and only that. No Divine Intervention, nothing. Just Turn Undead and features to support only that.
Maybe you have accepted that the UA Druid is no more Wildshape focused than the 5e Druid, but that is not true of everyone commenting on here. So I find myself pointing out the truth every few post. The UA clerics features you are talking about don’t have direct correlations to druids at all. Their Holy order feature does not do anything to their CD and is based on the fact that clerics in 5e got features at level 1 that correlate to the Holy orders. Arcana and Light got cantrips, Storms and War got armor proficiency and weapon proficiency. Holy Order was made so Clerics didn’t lose things in the transition one dnd. Blessed strikes is literally a cleric feature that they had in 5e that was awkwardly placed in the subclasses, but now placed in the base. It equally supports melee and Spellcasting clerics. No one has made an argument for features that equally support Spellcasting and WS druids. Also if you give druids a cloned feature it’s going to feel like it and takes away from gaining WS features. I would be fine with ditching healing blossoms or adding a third option to the 2nd level Druid feature that focused on something else nature related other than healing. I don’t understand people trying to make the Druid a wizard or cleric clone.
And why do people care that clerics are better at smiting than Paladins? It’s not about balance. It’s because they identity of Paladins in 5e has been smiting. You are making my point for me. So back on topic why is it okay to make Wild Shape a spell that others can use and not okay for smite spells. Why is bad to have a smite spell using Cleric or Ranger, but not bad to have a wild shape using wizard or rogue? I see an identity problem in both cases
Being as good as another class isn't a problem, any more than it's a problem that a bard can learn fireball, which is certainly a signature ability for wizards.
Also, I would still expect subclass features of moon druid to enhance shapeshifting spells. Getting the ability for a non-druid is similar to getting it on a non-moon-druid -- it's an interesting utility spell but not all that core to the class concept.
Wild shape was a ribbon feature in previous editions, not a core capability, and if you're not a moon druid it should be a ribbon feature in One D&D.
This is more like fighters being able to learn rage, or a bard being able to learn portent as a spell. You admitted it was a feature in previous additions as well meaning it’s not a spell. Notice they are already talking about moving eldritch blast back to being a feature. Because it is part of the core identity of the Warlock.
This is more like fighters being able to learn rage, or a bard being able to learn portent as a spell.
Or like being able to learn a martial maneuver as a feat. Which you can do. It all depends on just how 'signature' of a feature you think wild shape actually is.
I mean... Wildshape already exists as a spell. It's called Polymorph and it is way better than Wildshape.
Polymorph requires concentration and changes your proficiencies and mental stats. If cast on an ally in combat, it's much better than wild shape, but it's worse for scouting, because you're typically losing 4-5 points of perception and investigation and can't understand any languages.
This is more like fighters being able to learn rage, or a bard being able to learn portent as a spell.
Or like being able to learn a martial maneuver as a feat. Which you can do. It all depends on just how 'signature' of a feature you think wild shape actually is.
Honestly portent was a bad example. It’s more like giving the bard a spellbook or giving anyone else access to flurry of blows. But still my point is a bunch of people were complaining about smites, but now some of the same people are arguing it’s okay for Wild Shape to just be a spell. Wild Shape has been a core of the Druid identity since at least 3e. Maybe longer, but I started in 3e and my first character ever was a Druid. Also martial maneuvers don’t have a long history with fighters. In the 5e PHB they already had a feat that would give anyone a maneuver. Here is a list of unique features for each class that carried over from previous editions. Artificer- Infusions, but they were different in 3e and 4e Barbarian- rage Bard- is unique because every edition presents them differently, but they are always generalist Cleric- turn undead, and being the primary healing class. Druid- Wild Shape Fighter- having more feats. Monk- unarmed strikes, flurry of blows Paladin- lay on hands, smites in some form and a mount in some form Rogue- sneak attack Sorcerer- nothing Warlock- eldritch blast which was oddly a cantrip, pacts from 4e Wizard- spell book
A lot of the balance discussion is again solely based on combat, and while the UA proposal for Wildshape Statblocks has been roundly shown to be poor in combat, it's out of combat that it's even worse. Others who've commented in this and several other threads, as well as on Twitter following the Crawford video and elsewhere have pointed out the identity of Wildshape is not based in combat but in utility for all parts of the game.
I've not noticed that Druids get hit or go unconcious into Death saving throws more than other class types. Are there stats on this? Is there data somewhere to support an argument that the current 5e Druid has some kind of real advantage with the HP pool of Wildshape? Or that they take longer than others at the table?
When we look at combat, if we must, due to the inherent lack of defensive spells in the Druid list it's almost necessary for Druids to be able to Wildshape in order to use beast traits for defense, speed, stealth, or other defensive capabilities, plus the temporary HP attached to that in 5e. Those HP are not more than the extra defense of the barbarian with unarmored defense and the half-damage rage bestows. They're not more than the defensive abilities of other caster classes (with Shield, Counterspell, Globe of Invulnerablity), or the extra armor plus high constitution of Paladins or Clerics (plus Shield of Faith).
Honestly portent was a bad example. It’s more like giving the bard a spellbook or giving anyone else access to flurry of blows. But still my point is a bunch of people were complaining about smites, but now some of the same people are arguing it’s okay for Wild Shape to just be a spell.
Everyone I've seen complaining has complained that clerics are better at smiting than paladins. Not that they can do it at all.
I am deeply curious who you've been talking to who is insisting Channel Nature should only ever be used for Wildshape. I've not seen that take anywhere on this forum. Everyone seems to agree that Channel Nature is one of the few positive additions to the class. The main failing point is that it doesn't bother to provide interesting alternatives.
I rarely agree with Yurei, but I honestly don't see how the other uses of Channel Nature aren't going to be ignored when compared to Wild Shape, especially if later playtests restore the feature to a proper power level. Personally, I think that some of Druids' naturey abilities should be decoupled form Wild Shape, and that WS should be independent from Channel Nature.
I am deeply curious who you've been talking to who is insisting Channel Nature should only ever be used for Wildshape. I've not seen that take anywhere on this forum. Everyone seems to agree that Channel Nature is one of the few positive additions to the class. The main failing point is that it doesn't bother to provide interesting alternatives.
I rarely agree with Yurei, but I honestly don't see how the other uses of Channel Nature aren't going to be ignored when compared to Wild Shape, especially if later playtests restore the feature to a proper power level. Personally, I think that some of Druids' naturey abilities should be decoupled form Wild Shape, and that WS should be independent from Channel Nature.
I don't know if I completely agree with this. It depends on what the CN options are. We get 3 uses of CN at level 5 and 4 at level 9. Plus regain 1 per short rest and all on a long rest. Compared to twice on the 5E druid. If the base druid had good options, especially non-moon druids, then I think it will not be ignored. Plus, I'm sure the subclasses will build on the CN feature, like some currently do with Wildshape in 5E.
Edit: I'm fine with WS being part of Channel Nature. Channel Nature just needs better options.
Exactly the UA isn’t hell bent on making all the features WS it only spread the feature across levels instead of having one feature that gave all the same abilities at different levels.
Actually, I've said this very thing in a previous thread (Here starting at post 117). That wasn't my point. It really isn't much different than the 2014 druid but a few things thrown in, like Healing Blossoms. Which I don't think is a very good ability and could absolutely be used for a better, more druidic, feature.
There is no more focus in the UA on Wild shape than there was in 5e. The simply spread it out across multiple features and levels to remove the look of dead levels. Also the Base 5e Wizard has one feature that aids Spellcasting until 18th level. Arcane Recovery is it. Also the Base 5e cleric does not have a single feature that aids its Spellcasting at any level.
See my response above. The Cleric UA has Divine Spark (which will be changed to not use PB) which technically doesn't aid spellcasting, but is a feature as part of Channel Divinity that is thematic to the Cleric. Healing Blossoms is a weaker version of that and not very thematic despite the spectral flowers.
The UA Cleric also has the Thaumaturge Holy Order, which gives a extra cantrip and 1 use of CD on a short rest. I little better supporting casting.
The UA Cleric also has Blessed Strikes which aids spellcasting in giving extra radiant (thematic) damage to a cantrip.
The UA Cleric also has Divine Intervention and a Greater version at 18th level. Not an aid to spellcasting, I know, but at least it is something different for the base class. The UA druid (and 2014 druid) have WS as basically the one and only class feature. It would be like the Cleric having Turn Undead as their primary feature and giving them multiple class features to boost just that, and only that. No Divine Intervention, nothing. Just Turn Undead and features to support only that.
Maybe you have accepted that the UA Druid is no more Wildshape focused than the 5e Druid, but that is not true of everyone commenting on here. So I find myself pointing out the truth every few post. The UA clerics features you are talking about don’t have direct correlations to druids at all. Their Holy order feature does not do anything to their CD and is based on the fact that clerics in 5e got features at level 1 that correlate to the Holy orders. Arcana and Light got cantrips, Storms and War got armor proficiency and weapon proficiency. Holy Order was made so Clerics didn’t lose things in the transition one dnd. Blessed strikes is literally a cleric feature that they had in 5e that was awkwardly placed in the subclasses, but now placed in the base. It equally supports melee and Spellcasting clerics. No one has made an argument for features that equally support Spellcasting and WS druids. Also if you give druids a cloned feature it’s going to feel like it and takes away from gaining WS features. I would be fine with ditching healing blossoms or adding a third option to the 2nd level Druid feature that focused on something else nature related other than healing. I don’t understand people trying to make the Druid a wizard or cleric clone.
I'm not trying to find any direct correlations between druids and clerics at all. I understand why they have things like Holy Orders, due to subclasses all coming online at level 3. And I don't want to make druid a wizard/cleric clone. I'm not sure if others are, but I don't take it that way from the comments. What I'm saying is, with the UA's, they are incorporating some previous pre-3rd level abilities that were for subclasses and making them part of the base class. And that they either aid spellcasting or fit the theme of the class better than what the Druid UA (or Druid 2014) has to offer.
And I would be willing to bet that Wizards will get some more class features as it seems WotC is opposed to have any empty levels on their class tables. Even if they have to spread out one class feature over several levels to make it look like every level you get something. I mean, look at the 5E wizard table. A whole lot of blanks for WotC to fill somehow. Especially with the change to every spellcaster being a prepared caster now. Not sure what that will mean for the wizard and their spellbook, but they have to do something.
As for Healing Blossoms, if they want to keep a spectral plant theme, instead of making it a worse version of the clerics CD healing, how about making it the same 30' range, 10' radius sphere of spectral plants that, once per turn, can make an unarmed strike (grapple only) with the DC your spellcasting DC. Or maybe attempt to grapple WIS modifier number of creatures in the sphere? That would feel more druidy to me.
And with the exception of Wild Resurgence, I think the rest of the features could stay as WS features. WR could then be changed to something else, like adding Restrained to the grappling spectral plants CN. Or elemental damage on spells that make a spell attack. Agilemind had some good ideas in Post #31 that could work as well.
If the moon druid is intended to mostly rely on their Wild Shape and go into combat maybe it should use spell slots as a extra resource while using Wild Shape.
Maybe some feature that allows you to spend a spell slot when you use Wild Shape and gain Temp HP based on the level of the spell slot.
I play druids regularly and am perfectly aware that being unable to cast spells is a significant tradeoff, but it's still a separate resource -- using wild shape does not reduce the number of spells I can cast in a day.
Major problem is you have drastically improved the base class. This might be fine depending on what they do with the sorcerer and wizard, but as of now you have improved all druids Spellcasting as part of the base class. Also your 5th lvl ability is OP compared 5e Ranger companions.
5e Druid already did that as part of combat Wild shape, it let you expend a spell slot to restore hp as a bonus action. The UA version just let you cast abjuration spells instead.
Wild Shape as a spell is worse than smite spells and find steed as a spell with the 3 spell list. Honestly it would be bad with 5e unique spell list since it would need to be a 1st level spell that scales. So many people would take especially rogues would take magic innate Druid for that spell. There are already two spells based on wildshape in 5e. Animal Shapes 8th level and Shapechange 9th level. Since I love experiments and it’s a basic rules spell let’s try to adjust animal shapes into a wild shape spell.
Wild Shape
Your magic turns you into a beast. You transform yourself into the form of a Large or smaller beast with a challenge rating of 1/4 your level or lower (rounded down). This beast can’t have a swim speed or a fly speed.
The transformation lasts for the duration, or until your form drops to 0 hit points or dies. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You assume the hit points of your new form, and when you revert to your normal form, you returns to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. If you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious. You are limited in the actions you can perform by the nature of your new form, and it can't speak or cast spells.
Your gear melds into the new form. You can't activate, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of your equipment.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the duration is increased by 2 hours for each level cast above 1st. When you cast this using a 3rd level spell slot or higher you can choose beast that have swim speeds. When you cast this using 5th level spell slots or higher you can choose beast that have a fly speed.
The reason smite spells and find steed for clerics are a problem is because the paladin is a half-caster, so giving them to a full caster when they're balanced for a half-caster winds up overpowered. That's not an issue for druids -- they're already full casters.
False the main reason everyone complained about it was not balance it was loss of identity. Smite spells aren’t inherently more powerful than other options full casters have. Yes full casters who get a better version of find steed but they would be spending a higher level spell slot so it doesn’t break balance at all. Now Find steed is broken as a spell because it creates a permanent creature for just the cost of a spell slot, but it’s hard to argue smite spells have a balance problem at all. This Wildshape spell would definitely be a balance problem because any rogue with it is far superior in scouting than any rogue without it. Any heavily armored fighter should take magic initiate to get it as well. No more stealth mission problems.
Actually, I've said this very thing in a previous thread (Here starting at post 117). That wasn't my point. It really isn't much different than the 2014 druid but a few things thrown in, like Healing Blossoms. Which I don't think is a very good ability and could absolutely be used for a better, more druidic, feature.
See my response above. The Cleric UA has Divine Spark (which will be changed to not use PB) which technically doesn't aid spellcasting, but is a feature as part of Channel Divinity that is thematic to the Cleric. Healing Blossoms is a weaker version of that and not very thematic despite the spectral flowers.
The UA Cleric also has the Thaumaturge Holy Order, which gives a extra cantrip and 1 use of CD on a short rest. I little better supporting casting.
The UA Cleric also has Blessed Strikes which aids spellcasting in giving extra radiant (thematic) damage to a cantrip.
The UA Cleric also has Divine Intervention and a Greater version at 18th level. Not an aid to spellcasting, I know, but at least it is something different for the base class. The UA druid (and 2014 druid) have WS as basically the one and only class feature. It would be like the Cleric having Turn Undead as their primary feature and giving them multiple class features to boost just that, and only that. No Divine Intervention, nothing. Just Turn Undead and features to support only that.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
People complained because clerics were better at smiting than paladins. That's a nonfactor when the source class is a full caster.
And why do people care that clerics are better at smiting than Paladins? It’s not about balance. It’s because they identity of Paladins in 5e has been smiting. You are making my point for me. So back on topic why is it okay to make Wild Shape a spell that others can use and not okay for smite spells. Why is bad to have a smite spell using Cleric or Ranger, but not bad to have a wild shape using wizard or rogue? I see an identity problem in both cases
Being as good as another class isn't a problem, any more than it's a problem that a bard can learn fireball, which is certainly a signature ability for wizards.
Also, I would still expect subclass features of moon druid to enhance shapeshifting spells. Getting the ability for a non-druid is similar to getting it on a non-moon-druid -- it's an interesting utility spell but not all that core to the class concept.
Wild shape was a ribbon feature in previous editions, not a core capability, and if you're not a moon druid it should be a ribbon feature in One D&D.
Maybe you have accepted that the UA Druid is no more Wildshape focused than the 5e Druid, but that is not true of everyone commenting on here. So I find myself pointing out the truth every few post. The UA clerics features you are talking about don’t have direct correlations to druids at all. Their Holy order feature does not do anything to their CD and is based on the fact that clerics in 5e got features at level 1 that correlate to the Holy orders. Arcana and Light got cantrips, Storms and War got armor proficiency and weapon proficiency. Holy Order was made so Clerics didn’t lose things in the transition one dnd. Blessed strikes is literally a cleric feature that they had in 5e that was awkwardly placed in the subclasses, but now placed in the base. It equally supports melee and Spellcasting clerics. No one has made an argument for features that equally support Spellcasting and WS druids. Also if you give druids a cloned feature it’s going to feel like it and takes away from gaining WS features.
I would be fine with ditching healing blossoms or adding a third option to the 2nd level Druid feature that focused on something else nature related other than healing. I don’t understand people trying to make the Druid a wizard or cleric clone.
This is more like fighters being able to learn rage, or a bard being able to learn portent as a spell. You admitted it was a feature in previous additions as well meaning it’s not a spell. Notice they are already talking about moving eldritch blast back to being a feature. Because it is part of the core identity of the Warlock.
Or like being able to learn a martial maneuver as a feat. Which you can do. It all depends on just how 'signature' of a feature you think wild shape actually is.
I mean... Wildshape already exists as a spell. It's called Polymorph and it is way better than Wildshape.
Polymorph requires concentration and changes your proficiencies and mental stats. If cast on an ally in combat, it's much better than wild shape, but it's worse for scouting, because you're typically losing 4-5 points of perception and investigation and can't understand any languages.
Honestly portent was a bad example. It’s more like giving the bard a spellbook or giving anyone else access to flurry of blows. But still my point is a bunch of people were complaining about smites, but now some of the same people are arguing it’s okay for Wild Shape to just be a spell. Wild Shape has been a core of the Druid identity since at least 3e. Maybe longer, but I started in 3e and my first character ever was a Druid.
Also martial maneuvers don’t have a long history with fighters. In the 5e PHB they already had a feat that would give anyone a maneuver.
Here is a list of unique features for each class that carried over from previous editions.
Artificer- Infusions, but they were different in 3e and 4e
Barbarian- rage
Bard- is unique because every edition presents them differently, but they are always generalist
Cleric- turn undead, and being the primary healing class.
Druid- Wild Shape
Fighter- having more feats.
Monk- unarmed strikes, flurry of blows
Paladin- lay on hands, smites in some form and a mount in some form
Rogue- sneak attack
Sorcerer- nothing
Warlock- eldritch blast which was oddly a cantrip, pacts from 4e
Wizard- spell book
A lot of the balance discussion is again solely based on combat, and while the UA proposal for Wildshape Statblocks has been roundly shown to be poor in combat, it's out of combat that it's even worse. Others who've commented in this and several other threads, as well as on Twitter following the Crawford video and elsewhere have pointed out the identity of Wildshape is not based in combat but in utility for all parts of the game.
I've not noticed that Druids get hit or go unconcious into Death saving throws more than other class types. Are there stats on this? Is there data somewhere to support an argument that the current 5e Druid has some kind of real advantage with the HP pool of Wildshape? Or that they take longer than others at the table?
When we look at combat, if we must, due to the inherent lack of defensive spells in the Druid list it's almost necessary for Druids to be able to Wildshape in order to use beast traits for defense, speed, stealth, or other defensive capabilities, plus the temporary HP attached to that in 5e. Those HP are not more than the extra defense of the barbarian with unarmored defense and the half-damage rage bestows. They're not more than the defensive abilities of other caster classes (with Shield, Counterspell, Globe of Invulnerablity), or the extra armor plus high constitution of Paladins or Clerics (plus Shield of Faith).
Everyone I've seen complaining has complained that clerics are better at smiting than paladins. Not that they can do it at all.
I rarely agree with Yurei, but I honestly don't see how the other uses of Channel Nature aren't going to be ignored when compared to Wild Shape, especially if later playtests restore the feature to a proper power level. Personally, I think that some of Druids' naturey abilities should be decoupled form Wild Shape, and that WS should be independent from Channel Nature.
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HERE.I don't know if I completely agree with this. It depends on what the CN options are. We get 3 uses of CN at level 5 and 4 at level 9. Plus regain 1 per short rest and all on a long rest. Compared to twice on the 5E druid. If the base druid had good options, especially non-moon druids, then I think it will not be ignored. Plus, I'm sure the subclasses will build on the CN feature, like some currently do with Wildshape in 5E.
Edit: I'm fine with WS being part of Channel Nature. Channel Nature just needs better options.
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I'm not trying to find any direct correlations between druids and clerics at all. I understand why they have things like Holy Orders, due to subclasses all coming online at level 3. And I don't want to make druid a wizard/cleric clone. I'm not sure if others are, but I don't take it that way from the comments. What I'm saying is, with the UA's, they are incorporating some previous pre-3rd level abilities that were for subclasses and making them part of the base class. And that they either aid spellcasting or fit the theme of the class better than what the Druid UA (or Druid 2014) has to offer.
And I would be willing to bet that Wizards will get some more class features as it seems WotC is opposed to have any empty levels on their class tables. Even if they have to spread out one class feature over several levels to make it look like every level you get something. I mean, look at the 5E wizard table. A whole lot of blanks for WotC to fill somehow. Especially with the change to every spellcaster being a prepared caster now. Not sure what that will mean for the wizard and their spellbook, but they have to do something.
As for Healing Blossoms, if they want to keep a spectral plant theme, instead of making it a worse version of the clerics CD healing, how about making it the same 30' range, 10' radius sphere of spectral plants that, once per turn, can make an unarmed strike (grapple only) with the DC your spellcasting DC. Or maybe attempt to grapple WIS modifier number of creatures in the sphere? That would feel more druidy to me.
And with the exception of Wild Resurgence, I think the rest of the features could stay as WS features. WR could then be changed to something else, like adding Restrained to the grappling spectral plants CN. Or elemental damage on spells that make a spell attack. Agilemind had some good ideas in Post #31 that could work as well.
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