Great those are written with more clarity, that doesn't mean that the lack of clarity has changed it so far. If they wanted it changed it would have been specific about it. It has been said already, if you can cast hex as a 5th level spell at 18, then there is nothing stopping someone taking Bestow Curse at level 5 and casting it as a 9th level spell right then and there. The wording is the same about being able to cast them without expending a spell slot.
Do not fall for the fallacy of the "rules don't say I can't", just because the rules don't say you can't doesn't mean you can.
Not, the level is indicated just in the table. At greater levels, you can upgrade it (as you can change an invocation by another) to get it at the new indicated level in the table. That is really written, so is RAW. But using the base level if not specified, is a consensus to fix some glitches in old manuals, as they could omit or simply forget about writing it.
Also, how can be so sure for a 100%? If they wanted to fix it, then it should be a paragraph in already published content saying it, then would not be need to specify on each description they intentionally want to apply. I mean they are in time to set it as RAW, but didn't, and instead they are more clear on each description.
Probably asking on Twitter could clarify, as not fixing it by rule could be unintentional, but not sure if will respond.
The table indicates what level SPELL you can pick. It says nothing about what level you CAST that spell at. The table is simply a limiter of the list you can pick from.
"Choose one spell from the Arcane spell list that has a level for which you qualify, as shown on the Mystic Arcanum table. Look for your Warlock level on the table to see the maximum level that the spell can have. You can cast the chosen spell once without expending a Spell Slot."
It says nothing about casting the spell at its base level, it simply talks about what list of spells you can pick from and the table is the highest level spell you can pick from.
Solid case of "rules don't say I can't." They have clarified multiple times even with tasha's that any time you get a spell that you can cast without using a spell slot that spell is always cast at its base level.
They have a whole rules glossary where they are changing every little rule and even re-wording how two-weapon fighting/the light property works. If they intended to change how casting spells without a spell slot worked it would be in the rule glossary and it would have been a highlight. It isn't, and the rule hasn't changed.
The level of the spell is the level you cast. If you cast Fireball using a 5th level slot, it is a level 5 spell, even for counterspell it. If there is an exception, is indicated, like in Globe of Invulneravility.
Also, MA does not grant the spell, only gives you to replicate the effect at the level indicated at the table when acquired the invocation. Notice that you can't use your own slots to cast it. I.e. if you were multiclass with Wizard, you couldn't write into your spellbook, as is not one of your prepared spells.
Then we can see that is all indicated at the rules.
I think sometimes the problem is really how each one interpret the rules.
Unfortunately you are incorrect and Aquilontune is correct. It’s like you didn’t even read the Mystic Arcanum invocation. It clearly says you pick a spell for which you qualify on the table. you cast that spell one time without a slot. so at 5-6 you can choose one 3rd level spell and cast it (as a 3rd level spell) without a slot per long rest the feature says nothing about upcasting
Some very basic comparisons, not looking at optimum builds, not adding in extra spells from whatever's (exception MA because of the Invoc tax), not even splitting them by Pact - just a table view of some basics for Tier 2 (L10) & Tier 3 (L16) 5e, Multi & UA.
Yes we can achieve more spell slots by tilting the multiclass, but then its really a sorcerer with a warlock dip. Here I am applying a min to achieve invocations & pact boon.
Tier 2
5e Warlock Level 10
Invocation
5
Cantrip
4
Spell Known
10
Spell level
L1
L2
L3
L4
L5
Pact / MA
2
Slots
-
-
-
-
-
Sorc Points
-
5e Warlock 3 / Sorc 7
Invocation
2
Cantrip
7
W 2 / S 5
Spell Known
12
W 4 / S 8
Spell level
L1
L2
L3
L4
L5
Pact / MA
-
2
-
-
-
Slots
4
3
3
1
-
Sorc Point
7
5e Warlock 3 / Wiz 7
Invocation
2
Cantrip
6
W 2 / Wiz 4
Spell Known
22
W 4 / Wiz 18
Spell level
L1
L2
L3
L4
L5
Pact / MA
2
-
Slots
4
3
3
1
-
UA Warlock L10
Invocation
5
Cantrip
4
Spell Known
9
Spell level
L1
L2
L3
L4
L5
Pact / MA
1
1
1
Slots
4
3
2
Sorc Points
5e Warlock has most invocations, needs short rests to get close to the same spells:day as the others, casts all spells at their max level. Hellish Rebuke 6d10.
5e Sorc multi doesn't reach L5 spells, only 2 invocations, most cantrips, more known spells, 2 pact slots:short rest, 7 sorcery points:long rest. Hellish Rebuke 5d10.
5e Wiz multi doesn't reach L5 spells, only 2 invocations, more cantrips, the most known spells (by level gain), 2 pact slots:short rest. Hellish Rebuke 5d10.
UA Warlock has same number of invocations as 5e but needs to spend at least 1 (max 3) to reach L5 spells, knows one less spell than 5e, can't cast as many L5 spells:day (arguably subject to short rest), Hellish Rebuke 4d10.
Tier 3
5e Warlock Level 16
Invocation
7
Cantrip
4
Spell Known
13
Spell level
L1
L2
L3
L4
L5
L6
L7
L8
L9
Pact / MA
3
1
1
1
-
Slots
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Sorc Points
-
5e Warlock 3 / Sorc 13
Invocation
2
Cantrip
8
W 2 / S 6
Spell Known
17
W 4 / S 13
Spell level
L1
L2
L3
L4
L5
L6
L7
L8
L9
Pact / MA
2
Slots
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
-
-
Sorc Points
13
5e Warlock 3 / Wiz 13
Invocation
2
Cantrip
7
W 2 / Wiz 5
Spell Known
34
W 4 / Wiz 30
Spell level
L1
L2
L3
L4
L5
L6
L7
L8
L9
Pact / MA
2
Slots
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
Sorc Points
UA Warlock L16
Invocation
8
Cantrip
4
Spell Known
12
Spell level
L1
L2
L3
L4
L5
L6
L7
L8
L9
Pact / MA
1
1
1
1
1
1
Slots
4
3
3
2
-
Sorc Point
Not going to list the basic differences, just skipping to the UA Warlock.
It has 8 invocations but at least 1 must be spent to gain a L8 spell. If it was to be matched to 5e L16 warlock then the total invocations available for the UA would be 4 versus 7.
UA has 12 spell slots, 5e needs 4 short rests to equal the same spells:day output. The number of L5 spells do not match (short rests, and with a MA invocation tax)
Hellish Rebuke doesn't have the same max damage output as UA Warlock cant use the MA slot to cast it at L5
My opinion: the UA Warlock needs some work. The tax on the invocations to gain L5 - L8 spells (yes I understand that I don't have to spend more than one at L16 to gain a single L8 spell) turns me off and it is not as "blasty" (subject to DM fiat short rests) with the number of L5 spells. I like the versatility of having more slots available for low level spells, I don't like taxes on the invocations because to me they are what makes a Warlock.
I think the intent may have been that the Book of Shadows needs you to select Scribe Spell from the Arcane list to enable you to continue to scribe ritual spells into it, however that is not how it reads - two rituals is all you get. that needs fixing.
Hex should be able to be cast without concentration and make it a class ability.
Gaining the bonus damage to EB through means other than invocations? meh - fire bolt dosen't get a bonus to damage, if you want it then spent an invocation on it.
If Mystic Arcanum went back to class abilities, Book of Shadows/Rituals was fixed, Hex became a non-concentration spell and if there was a method of being able to burn through your lower spell slots to cast a higher levels spell, then i think i might be over the line
A Youtuber put the changes to the Warlock into perspective for me this morning. WotC has asked all the right questions, but they came up with poor answers to most of them.
Do you mean Insight Check? He has good takes (he was one of the few to not immediately freak out over the Wild Shape change for instance) and I think he was spot on with Mystic Arcanum as an invocation being illusion of choice.
The problem he didn’t address is spell potency. That’s what the new warlock has lost. Maybe he feels it was a fair trade, but I prefer 5th level Armor of Agathys on my 9th level character. This is not achievable with the new warlock.
How about this - they make Mystic Arcanum a baseline feature, and the invocation instead lets you select an Arcanum each time you take it that you can convert into a spell slot for upcasting purposes.
You can lean into that invocation to make your Warlock more of a dedicated caster, or you can ignore it and still get powerful spells with your Arcanum, while freeing up your invocations for the more unique things like Devils Sight and Gaze instead.
I still disagree, although not as strongly as I did before.
If Mystic Arcanum are to be purchased with Invocations, then there need to be more invocations. I'd suggest 2, as each pact boon seems to have 2 invocations baked into them automatically. This would leave the Warlock about where they were before in regards to Invocations.
Either a slightly faster spell progression is still needed, or they can dig up the old 3rd edition Bard spell progression. Or possibly a free upcast (at level X, treat all spells cast from a spell slot as having been upcast with a slot one level higher. For example, a first level spell will be treated as having used a second level spell slot. You may not use this feature to cast an actual second level spell with a first level slot, it works for upcasting only) or general upcasting. Using all spells from levels 1-4 from 5th level slots was a defining feature of the class.
Hex Master is perhaps the worst capstone out of every class released in playtest so far, and it isn't even close. At higher levels, Hex is a sucker's spell, so having a feature which encourages it's use at levels far beyond where it is useful can be replaced with a blank space and might even be better for the class - there won't be the encouragement to use something so lackluster. Personally, I think that with with the 1/2 spell slot progression, by the time you have slots high enough to upcast Hex, you're better off not using it at all.
This is a random idea that I'm just throwing out without much thought of how to implement it, but what if Warlocks could get higher level spells quicker than everybody else? Obviously not for free, I imagine their spellcasting would have to be a lot worse to make up for it. But they could get a 2nd level spell at 1st level, a 3rd level spell at 3rd level, a 4th level spell at 5th, and so on. I really think that would support the idea of someone hunting for magical secrets and forbidden knowledge, give them a solid class identity and a reason to stick with the class, and hopefully not have them outshine the Wizard because it would be one of the few spells they could cast in a day. I suppose what my idea really is is giving Mystic Arcanum to Warlocks 2 levels earlier. Maybe this could accompany a switch back to Pact Magic, either long or short rest, by giving fewer Pact slots. For out-of-combat utility, I still think that giving Pact of the Tome 1/4 or 1/3 spell progression on top of Pact Magic and Mystic Arcanum would cement its place as the casty-Warlock, whereas Blade and Chain can function just fine without too many spell slots.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
No, no faster-than-fullcaster spell progression by any means. That's a balance nightmare that will get exacerbated with every new arcane spell they print. We saw this in 3rd edition with stuff like Precocious Apprentice or the Ardent, and the ocean of cheese they enabled.
So this is a 1/3 caster with pact magic. At 1st level they get Spellcasting 1/3 caster. At 2nd they get pact magic, but instead of a short rest recharge a warlock gets a cantrip called draw power with a 1 minute cast time that regains all pact slots. You may use this cantrip 2 times between long rest without suffering I’ll affects. Each time you use it more than twice without taking a long rest you only regain one pact slot per casting and you take 1d8 x number of times used since last long rest necrotic damage that can’t be reduce by any means and your max hp is reduced by this amount as well. MA returns to a separate feature and isn’t a part of invocations. Invocations return to eight. Dropped the additional pact slot gained at 11th to account for having Spellcasting as well. This build shows Warlocks have there own power, Spellcasting, and gain or steal some power from otherworldly beings, pact magic.
I still disagree, although not as strongly as I did before.
I still disagree just as much. He is a white room optimizer and I've never argued the balance is off with the class. All he looks at is power, and builds. If that was the issue people had with the new warlock this would have been over a while ago. Like he multiple times went over the full arcane list. Is that a buff sure, is that a good thing though. I kind of doubt it, unique lists are good. If the arcane list was trimmed down by half and the other 1/2 got divided up among the mage classes as class exclusives I'd be fine with it. But the full arcane list with some class abilities disguised as spells in your unique pile. Nah, that is worse. He liked adding medium armor saying it was the step in the right direction. For optimization sure, for a warlock no. If they wanted to add some defense mage armor at will invocation should have been baked in with some methods to beef it up, that would feel like a warlock, not every warlock in medium armor. Almost all his points were like that. Sure there are good things with the new pacts for example, but he thinks everything is numbers, and its not.
So this is a 1/3 caster with pact magic. At 1st level they get Spellcasting 1/3 caster. At 2nd they get pact magic, but instead of a short rest recharge a warlock gets a cantrip called draw power with a 1 minute cast time that regains all pact slots. You may use this cantrip 2 times between long rest without suffering I’ll affects. Each time you use it more than twice without taking a long rest you only regain one pact slot per casting and you take 1d8 x number of times used since last long rest necrotic damage that can’t be reduce by any means and your max hp is reduced by this amount as well. MA returns to a separate feature and isn’t a part of invocations. Invocations return to eight. Dropped the additional pact slot gained at 11th to account for having Spellcasting as well. This build shows Warlocks have there own power, Spellcasting, and gain or steal some power from otherworldly beings, pact magic.
Warlock Level
1st lvl SS
2nd lvl SS
3rd lvl SS
4 lvl SS
PM slots
PM level
1
2
X
X
2
2
2
1st
3
2
2
2nd
4
3
2
2nd
5
3
2
3rd
6
3
2
3rd
7
4
2
2
4th
8
4
2
2
4th
9
4
2
2
5th
10
4
3
2
5th
11
4
3
2
5th
12
4
3
2
5th
13
4
3
2
2
5th
14
4
3
2
2
5th
15
4
3
2
2
5th
16
4
3
3
2
5th
17
4
3
3
3
5th
18
4
3
3
3
5th
19
4
3
3
1
3
5th
20
4
3
3
1
3
5th
This is by far my favorite compromise build. It still has pact magic even if they lose a top slot and don't get the 3rd until 17th level. While still having a decent collection of low level spells for the people missing out on that.
I still disagree just as much. He is a white room optimizer and I've never argued the balance is off with the class. All he looks at is power, and builds. If that was the issue people had with the new warlock this would have been over a while ago. Like he multiple times went over the full arcane list. Is that a buff sure, is that a good thing though. I kind of doubt it, unique lists are good. If the arcane list was trimmed down by half and the other 1/2 got divided up among the mage classes as class exclusives I'd be fine with it. But the full arcane list with some class abilities disguised as spells in your unique pile. Nah, that is worse. He liked adding medium armor saying it was the step in the right direction. For optimization sure, for a warlock no. If they wanted to add some defense mage armor at will invocation should have been baked in with some methods to beef it up, that would feel like a warlock, not every warlock in medium armor. Almost all his points were like that. Sure there are good things with the new pacts for example, but he thinks everything is numbers, and its not.
I see nothing wrong with most spells in a list being shared. A lot of the lines between classes especially at higher levels were arbitrary and didn't make much sense. Why couldn't Warlocks get Magic Jar before? Or Maze? Or Teleport? Why couldn't sorcerers summon anything? Difference for difference sake is just arbitrary chaff.
I've been having a few thoughts about the new Warlock thanks to the discussion, and I wanted to float an idea for a compromise.
I really like the 1/3rd caster + pact magic idea, it sells the idea of a Warlock's powers not being traditionally sourced/used. And then I thought to myself "Self, what if we could choose which kind of casting we wanted?" They already gave us some choice in what ability score we use for casting spells, why not a system choice as well?
What I'm thinking of would be at first level you get your choice of Pact Magic auto-scaling but limited long rest slots, or 1/2 caster progression. Then, you would have high level invocations, say around 7th or maybe 10th level, to get a limited form of the other version. Invocation Pact Magic could give you one slot that scales slower, and Invocation Spellcasting could give you 1/3rd casting. There'd have to be a slight change in regards to the amount of Invocations, but I think this could work and it sort of touches on the old 3.5e Warlock where your spells came from invocations. I understand it's a bit of a pipe-dream, given the amount of work that would need to go in to it, but what are your thoughts?
So this is a 1/3 caster with pact magic. At 1st level they get Spellcasting 1/3 caster. At 2nd they get pact magic, but instead of a short rest recharge a warlock gets a cantrip called draw power with a 1 minute cast time that regains all pact slots. You may use this cantrip 2 times between long rest without suffering I’ll affects. Each time you use it more than twice without taking a long rest you only regain one pact slot per casting and you take 1d8 x number of times used since last long rest necrotic damage that can’t be reduce by any means and your max hp is reduced by this amount as well. MA returns to a separate feature and isn’t a part of invocations. Invocations return to eight. Dropped the additional pact slot gained at 11th to account for having Spellcasting as well. This build shows Warlocks have there own power, Spellcasting, and gain or steal some power from otherworldly beings, pact magic.
That's just flat-out better than the 2014 warlock, which is not the objective.
Taking the idea of raising the level of the spells cast, keeping the AU thing that the wizard is half a spellcaster, and is not overexploitable by multiclasses, is that it is NOT free (and at the same time brings part of the flavor of magic pact, casting high-level spells at the cost of losing low-level spell slots.):
A level 5 trait (or level 5 summon) with the following name and effects:
Pact Magic: With the help of your patron you convert and overload your magical ability to cast spells with expanded power. Combine lower-level spell slots to cast a spell as the sum of the combined levels, -1 for each previous use of this feature. The trait's use counter resets to 0 upon completion of any rest (short or long). The condensed space cannot exceed that indicated according to the table:
Warlock level <-> Max level of spell slot
5 <-> 3 7 <-> 4 10 <-> 5 13 <-> 6
Yes, with this, from level 13 you could cast a spell using pact magic of level 6.
This is not a converter to save powerful spaces, as soon as you combine them you must use it, at the same time while trying to cast the spell.
It includes short rest so as NOT to forget them but without it being vital, one would say that tables that abuse short rest will break the game... well, I don't think so, since it doesn't have unlimited spaces, and it's not a considerable loss to do it 2 times, or even 3 if the situation warrants it, without a rest in between.
With this method and with a scaling of half a caster, I'll give examples of conversions that have at most what one could achieve so that they have a potential idea of how much could be used for powerful spells:
At level 7-8 one could cast 3 times (taking minimum 1 short rest in between) spells using 3rd level slots or 2 times using 4th level slots.
At 11-12 level one could cast 4 times (taking minimum 1 short rest in between) spells using 4th level slots or 3 times using 5th level slots.
At level 13-14 one could cast 5 times (Taking minimum 2 short rests in between) spells using 4th level slots, 4 times (Taking minimum 1 short rest in between) spells using 5th level slots, or 3 times using slots level 6
At level 19-20 one could cast 5 times (taking minimum 2 short rests in between) spells using 6th level slots.
Efficiency being lower if you don't rest in between, plus you could convert lower level slots according to your needs, not just max, not wasting some unnecessary slots on some that don't scale, and without losing the ability to cast with slots own low-level spells, giving him great flexibility regarding the use of his slots and casting levels, especially if he needs a lot of power.
Revised BESEECH PATRON: After a Warlock casts their final spell slot, they may enter the Dazed condition until the end of their next turn and roll a d6. On a 5-6, they regain all spell slots. This would represent the Warlock attempting to persuade their patron to give them more power while in some form of trance or possessed state. Usable once per long rest.
It won't take much to fix warlocks, people love them already. I like the idea of my 'lock manifesting a blade in his open hand out of mist, like the Shardblades of the Stormlight Archive books.
What if hex got the bestow curse treatment and lost the use of concentration when you cast it with a 3rd level slot or higher.
It needs a no concentration fix somehow. Hex is now a warlock feature if people stop using it like at level 5 because they have better tings to concentrate on its not really feeling like a warlock feature, A higher slot would be one way, assuming the 1/2 caster spell progression 9th level seems pretty late for it to come online though.
Well, it needs something changed if it's supposed to actually be a regularly used spell -- having it be accepted as "this spell will mostly cease being used in tier 2" isn't unreasonable.
I'd probably just change Hexer to make it no concentration, as that makes the invocation non-terrible (still not amazing, but not terrible).
Hex Master probably also needs to give a free upcast to level 5.
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Unfortunately you are incorrect and Aquilontune is correct. It’s like you didn’t even read the Mystic Arcanum invocation. It clearly says you pick a spell for which you qualify on the table. you cast that spell one time without a slot. so at 5-6 you can choose one 3rd level spell and cast it (as a 3rd level spell) without a slot per long rest the feature says nothing about upcasting
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Thinking about the UA Warlock as a halfcaster
Some very basic comparisons, not looking at optimum builds, not adding in extra spells from whatever's (exception MA because of the Invoc tax), not even splitting them by Pact - just a table view of some basics for Tier 2 (L10) & Tier 3 (L16) 5e, Multi & UA.
Yes we can achieve more spell slots by tilting the multiclass, but then its really a sorcerer with a warlock dip. Here I am applying a min to achieve invocations & pact boon.
Tier 2
5e Warlock Level 10
MASlotsSorc Points5e Warlock 3 / Sorc 7
MA5e Warlock 3 / Wiz 7
MAUA Warlock L10
Pact/ MASorc Points5e Warlock has most invocations, needs short rests to get close to the same spells:day as the others, casts all spells at their max level. Hellish Rebuke 6d10.
5e Sorc multi doesn't reach L5 spells, only 2 invocations, most cantrips, more known spells, 2 pact slots:short rest, 7 sorcery points:long rest. Hellish Rebuke 5d10.
5e Wiz multi doesn't reach L5 spells, only 2 invocations, more cantrips, the most known spells (by level gain), 2 pact slots:short rest. Hellish Rebuke 5d10.
UA Warlock has same number of invocations as 5e but needs to spend at least 1 (max 3) to reach L5 spells, knows one less spell than 5e, can't cast as many L5 spells:day (arguably subject to short rest), Hellish Rebuke 4d10.
Tier 3
5e Warlock Level 16
SlotsSorc Points5e Warlock 3 / Sorc 13
MA5e Warlock 3 / Wiz 13
MASorc PointsUA Warlock L16
Pact/ MASorc PointNot going to list the basic differences, just skipping to the UA Warlock.
It has 8 invocations but at least 1 must be spent to gain a L8 spell. If it was to be matched to 5e L16 warlock then the total invocations available for the UA would be 4 versus 7.
UA has 12 spell slots, 5e needs 4 short rests to equal the same spells:day output. The number of L5 spells do not match (short rests, and with a MA invocation tax)
Hellish Rebuke doesn't have the same max damage output as UA Warlock cant use the MA slot to cast it at L5
My opinion: the UA Warlock needs some work. The tax on the invocations to gain L5 - L8 spells (yes I understand that I don't have to spend more than one at L16 to gain a single L8 spell) turns me off and it is not as "blasty" (subject to DM fiat short rests) with the number of L5 spells. I like the versatility of having more slots available for low level spells, I don't like taxes on the invocations because to me they are what makes a Warlock.
I think the intent may have been that the Book of Shadows needs you to select Scribe Spell from the Arcane list to enable you to continue to scribe ritual spells into it, however that is not how it reads - two rituals is all you get. that needs fixing.
Hex should be able to be cast without concentration and make it a class ability.
Gaining the bonus damage to EB through means other than invocations? meh - fire bolt dosen't get a bonus to damage, if you want it then spent an invocation on it.
If Mystic Arcanum went back to class abilities, Book of Shadows/Rituals was fixed, Hex became a non-concentration spell and if there was a method of being able to burn through your lower spell slots to cast a higher levels spell, then i think i might be over the line
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
You can't select Scribe Spell, that's a Wizard spell not an Arcane spell. It's only accessible via the Wizard's Spellbook feature.
Do you mean Insight Check? He has good takes (he was one of the few to not immediately freak out over the Wild Shape change for instance) and I think he was spot on with Mystic Arcanum as an invocation being illusion of choice.
The problem he didn’t address is spell potency. That’s what the new warlock has lost. Maybe he feels it was a fair trade, but I prefer 5th level Armor of Agathys on my 9th level character. This is not achievable with the new warlock.
How about this - they make Mystic Arcanum a baseline feature, and the invocation instead lets you select an Arcanum each time you take it that you can convert into a spell slot for upcasting purposes.
You can lean into that invocation to make your Warlock more of a dedicated caster, or you can ignore it and still get powerful spells with your Arcanum, while freeing up your invocations for the more unique things like Devils Sight and Gaze instead.
I still disagree, although not as strongly as I did before.
If Mystic Arcanum are to be purchased with Invocations, then there need to be more invocations. I'd suggest 2, as each pact boon seems to have 2 invocations baked into them automatically. This would leave the Warlock about where they were before in regards to Invocations.
Either a slightly faster spell progression is still needed, or they can dig up the old 3rd edition Bard spell progression. Or possibly a free upcast (at level X, treat all spells cast from a spell slot as having been upcast with a slot one level higher. For example, a first level spell will be treated as having used a second level spell slot. You may not use this feature to cast an actual second level spell with a first level slot, it works for upcasting only) or general upcasting. Using all spells from levels 1-4 from 5th level slots was a defining feature of the class.
Hex Master is perhaps the worst capstone out of every class released in playtest so far, and it isn't even close. At higher levels, Hex is a sucker's spell, so having a feature which encourages it's use at levels far beyond where it is useful can be replaced with a blank space and might even be better for the class - there won't be the encouragement to use something so lackluster. Personally, I think that with with the 1/2 spell slot progression, by the time you have slots high enough to upcast Hex, you're better off not using it at all.
This is a random idea that I'm just throwing out without much thought of how to implement it, but what if Warlocks could get higher level spells quicker than everybody else? Obviously not for free, I imagine their spellcasting would have to be a lot worse to make up for it. But they could get a 2nd level spell at 1st level, a 3rd level spell at 3rd level, a 4th level spell at 5th, and so on. I really think that would support the idea of someone hunting for magical secrets and forbidden knowledge, give them a solid class identity and a reason to stick with the class, and hopefully not have them outshine the Wizard because it would be one of the few spells they could cast in a day. I suppose what my idea really is is giving Mystic Arcanum to Warlocks 2 levels earlier. Maybe this could accompany a switch back to Pact Magic, either long or short rest, by giving fewer Pact slots. For out-of-combat utility, I still think that giving Pact of the Tome 1/4 or 1/3 spell progression on top of Pact Magic and Mystic Arcanum would cement its place as the casty-Warlock, whereas Blade and Chain can function just fine without too many spell slots.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
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No, no faster-than-fullcaster spell progression by any means. That's a balance nightmare that will get exacerbated with every new arcane spell they print. We saw this in 3rd edition with stuff like Precocious Apprentice or the Ardent, and the ocean of cheese they enabled.
So this is a 1/3 caster with pact magic. At 1st level they get Spellcasting 1/3 caster. At 2nd they get pact magic, but instead of a short rest recharge a warlock gets a cantrip called draw power with a 1 minute cast time that regains all pact slots. You may use this cantrip 2 times between long rest without suffering I’ll affects. Each time you use it more than twice without taking a long rest you only regain one pact slot per casting and you take 1d8 x number of times used since last long rest necrotic damage that can’t be reduce by any means and your max hp is reduced by this amount as well. MA returns to a separate feature and isn’t a part of invocations. Invocations return to eight. Dropped the additional pact slot gained at 11th to account for having Spellcasting as well. This build shows Warlocks have there own power, Spellcasting, and gain or steal some power from otherworldly beings, pact magic.
I still disagree just as much. He is a white room optimizer and I've never argued the balance is off with the class. All he looks at is power, and builds. If that was the issue people had with the new warlock this would have been over a while ago. Like he multiple times went over the full arcane list. Is that a buff sure, is that a good thing though. I kind of doubt it, unique lists are good. If the arcane list was trimmed down by half and the other 1/2 got divided up among the mage classes as class exclusives I'd be fine with it. But the full arcane list with some class abilities disguised as spells in your unique pile. Nah, that is worse. He liked adding medium armor saying it was the step in the right direction. For optimization sure, for a warlock no. If they wanted to add some defense mage armor at will invocation should have been baked in with some methods to beef it up, that would feel like a warlock, not every warlock in medium armor. Almost all his points were like that. Sure there are good things with the new pacts for example, but he thinks everything is numbers, and its not.
This is by far my favorite compromise build. It still has pact magic even if they lose a top slot and don't get the 3rd until 17th level. While still having a decent collection of low level spells for the people missing out on that.
I see nothing wrong with most spells in a list being shared. A lot of the lines between classes especially at higher levels were arbitrary and didn't make much sense. Why couldn't Warlocks get Magic Jar before? Or Maze? Or Teleport? Why couldn't sorcerers summon anything? Difference for difference sake is just arbitrary chaff.
I've been having a few thoughts about the new Warlock thanks to the discussion, and I wanted to float an idea for a compromise.
I really like the 1/3rd caster + pact magic idea, it sells the idea of a Warlock's powers not being traditionally sourced/used. And then I thought to myself "Self, what if we could choose which kind of casting we wanted?" They already gave us some choice in what ability score we use for casting spells, why not a system choice as well?
What I'm thinking of would be at first level you get your choice of Pact Magic auto-scaling but limited long rest slots, or 1/2 caster progression. Then, you would have high level invocations, say around 7th or maybe 10th level, to get a limited form of the other version. Invocation Pact Magic could give you one slot that scales slower, and Invocation Spellcasting could give you 1/3rd casting. There'd have to be a slight change in regards to the amount of Invocations, but I think this could work and it sort of touches on the old 3.5e Warlock where your spells came from invocations. I understand it's a bit of a pipe-dream, given the amount of work that would need to go in to it, but what are your thoughts?
That's just flat-out better than the 2014 warlock, which is not the objective.
Taking the idea of raising the level of the spells cast, keeping the AU thing that the wizard is half a spellcaster, and is not overexploitable by multiclasses, is that it is NOT free (and at the same time brings part of the flavor of magic pact, casting high-level spells at the cost of losing low-level spell slots.):
A level 5 trait (or level 5 summon) with the following name and effects:
Pact Magic: With the help of your patron you convert and overload your magical ability to cast spells with expanded power. Combine lower-level spell slots to cast a spell as the sum of the combined levels, -1 for each previous use of this feature. The trait's use counter resets to 0 upon completion of any rest (short or long). The condensed space cannot exceed that indicated according to the table:
Warlock level <-> Max level of spell slot
5 <-> 3
7 <-> 4
10 <-> 5
13 <-> 6
Yes, with this, from level 13 you could cast a spell using pact magic of level 6.
This is not a converter to save powerful spaces, as soon as you combine them you must use it, at the same time while trying to cast the spell.
It includes short rest so as NOT to forget them but without it being vital, one would say that tables that abuse short rest will break the game... well, I don't think so, since it doesn't have unlimited spaces, and it's not a considerable loss to do it 2 times, or even 3 if the situation warrants it, without a rest in between.
With this method and with a scaling of half a caster, I'll give examples of conversions that have at most what one could achieve so that they have a potential idea of how much could be used for powerful spells:
At level 7-8 one could cast 3 times (taking minimum 1 short rest in between) spells using 3rd level slots or 2 times using 4th level slots.
At 11-12 level one could cast 4 times (taking minimum 1 short rest in between) spells using 4th level slots or 3 times using 5th level slots.
At level 13-14 one could cast 5 times (Taking minimum 2 short rests in between) spells using 4th level slots, 4 times (Taking minimum 1 short rest in between) spells using 5th level slots, or 3 times using slots level 6
At level 19-20 one could cast 5 times (taking minimum 2 short rests in between) spells using 6th level slots.
Efficiency being lower if you don't rest in between, plus you could convert lower level slots according to your needs, not just max, not wasting some unnecessary slots on some that don't scale, and without losing the ability to cast with slots own low-level spells, giving him great flexibility regarding the use of his slots and casting levels, especially if he needs a lot of power.
Just a quick hex thought.
What if hex got the bestow curse treatment and lost the use of concentration when you cast it with a 3rd level slot or higher.
Revised BESEECH PATRON: After a Warlock casts their final spell slot, they may enter the Dazed condition until the end of their next turn and roll a d6. On a 5-6, they regain all spell slots. This would represent the Warlock attempting to persuade their patron to give them more power while in some form of trance or possessed state. Usable once per long rest.
It won't take much to fix warlocks, people love them already. I like the idea of my 'lock manifesting a blade in his open hand out of mist, like the Shardblades of the Stormlight Archive books.
It needs a no concentration fix somehow. Hex is now a warlock feature if people stop using it like at level 5 because they have better tings to concentrate on its not really feeling like a warlock feature, A higher slot would be one way, assuming the 1/2 caster spell progression 9th level seems pretty late for it to come online though.
Well, it needs something changed if it's supposed to actually be a regularly used spell -- having it be accepted as "this spell will mostly cease being used in tier 2" isn't unreasonable.
I'd probably just change Hexer to make it no concentration, as that makes the invocation non-terrible (still not amazing, but not terrible).
Hex Master probably also needs to give a free upcast to level 5.