How about getting rid of "Spells Prepared" and "Spell Slots" entirely?
Make Mystic Arcanums the core spellcasting feature for Warlock.
Get rid of spell slots and adjust the maximum number of Eldritch Invocations accordingly (maybe not 1 to 1).
Allow taking the same 1st-5th level spells as Mystic Arcanums more than once.
Allow the warlock to choose at what level they want to take the spell as their Arcanum, so when you pick the Arcanum you set the level you will always cast it as.
Make the number of times you can cast a spell chosen as Mystic Arcanum reversely proportional to the level you've chosen it at.
1st level spells 5x
2nd level spells 4x
3rd level spells 3x
4th level spells 2x
5th level spells 1x
Now if the Warlock wants to spend 10 Eldritch Invocations on Shield so they can cast it 50x times per long rest... just let them lol.
Someone just went "lets go full vancian casting on this where you have to prepare each slot specifically".
Well my last suggestion was shot down with "not vancian enough" lol.
But think about it, it sort of fits with the theme of 5e warlocks and their Eldritch Invocations.
Yep and it is so why I am so against Mystic arcanum being not a proper spell slot anymore. Full on vancian casting is wildly out of date in modern game design, and yet we have the warlock with its core power being full on vancian.
If I had my way, we'd do away with spell slots completely and make all classes use Spell Points.
And that is a great optional rule, but that is too radical a change for the goals that they have.
Before this document even came out I said I was interested in how they would handle warlock, because I got the sense it was going to be a big change. And given how difficult warlock could be to pin down I would not st all be surprised if we are in for some classic A B testing and they probably already have a completely different iteration mostly, locked, loaded and ready to go.
And considering my reaction to this, I am probably going to like it on some of its merits as well.
One more invocation at 3rd, which can be spent on a 2nd-level Mystic Arcanum, would be perfect and get the Warlock exactly where it needs to be. We have precedent for getting the same feature in consecutive levels with the new Fighter (ASI at 4 and 5, 15 and 16.)
Two other changes I would make:
1) For the Chainlock - let the Gaze of Two Minds invocation work on the Pact Familiar. Being able to cast your spells through your familiar would give it great utility, both before and after voice of the Chain Master comes online.
2) For Mystic Arcanum - let you pick a permanently-upcast version of a lower-level spell for that slot. For example, your 6th-level MA could be spent on Summon Fey upcast to 6th. That allows Warlocks to be the summoners they should be without just straight up giving them higher level spell slots.
Remember arcanum isn't a slot, when you cast a spell without consuming a slot it is cast at its lowest level. Either arcanum becomes a proper spell slot or you cant upcast lower level spells with it.
Yeah would take some finagling with the wording. But I want Warlocks that are good at summoning, and without upcasting past 5th they can't be. If they never get this I'll live, but that's what I want. I still think the half-casting change is good regardless.
One more invocation at 3rd, which can be spent on a 2nd-level Mystic Arcanum, would be perfect and get the Warlock exactly where it needs to be. We have precedent for getting the same feature in consecutive levels with the new Fighter (ASI at 4 and 5, 15 and 16.)
Two other changes I would make:
1) For the Chainlock - let the Gaze of Two Minds invocation work on the Pact Familiar. Being able to cast your spells through your familiar would give it great utility, both before and after voice of the Chain Master comes online.
2) For Mystic Arcanum - let you pick a permanently-upcast version of a lower-level spell for that slot. For example, your 6th-level MA could be spent on Summon Fey upcast to 6th. That allows Warlocks to be the summoners they should be without just straight up giving them higher level spell slots.
Remember arcanum isn't a slot, when you cast a spell without consuming a slot it is cast at its lowest level. Either arcanum becomes a proper spell slot or you cant upcast lower level spells with it.
Yeah would take some finagling with the wording. But I want Warlocks that are good at summoning, and without upcasting past 5th they can't be. If they never get this I'll live, but that's what I want. I still think the half-casting change is good regardless.
Right, and that is why I want mystic arcanum to just be a proper slot. I dont want half the spells of my career to be hard vancian. There is a way to upcast spells, it is called spell slots. I already showed a way to word mystic arcanum to provide a spell slot. You still don't end up with full caster casting because you have less casts.
I just played the first game of the play test, and to all of you who are rejecting the new warlock I would ask you to try it. Seriously, try it. It works much better than I expected.
I have played a Tomelock. And in the party there was also a bladelock. Both are wonderful, but above all, they are great fun to play. The Tomelock feels almost like a wizard since, spending an hour, you can choose any spell with the ritual tag that is level 1. That's very versatile, and allows you to choose the right rituals for every situation. In addition you can also choose two cantrips each time you summon the book, and these can be from any list. Even though book of shadows allows you to add your Int (or wis) to your damage cantrips, don't choose damage cantrips. For that you already have the eldritch blast. Instead, choose utility cantrips based on the situation. The versatility of the new tomelock is incredible. One could even argue that it's a bit broken in the hands of an analytical gamer. But for me it's fine and, above all, it's super fun to play.
The bladelock felt like an actual gish. I'm not going to talk much about him because it's not what I played. But really, being able to cast shield (in addition to other spells), makes it a much better gish than hexblade. No longer limited to casting Armor of agathys + Shadow of moil (believe me, I played a hexblade up to level 17 and that's what you do with your spell slots because it's better than any other option).He now feels like a real gish.
The only but that I see is that Mystic Arcanum spends an eldritch invocation. The Tomelock is going to spend his level 5+ eldritch invocations on it because he doesn't want to miss out on the other full casters. My bladelock partner didn't pick any Mystic Arcanum, but I did feel it as a "tax to be able to do magic".
In any case, even if it stays that way, for me it is a huge ok. I have always liked warlocks, he is one of my favorite classes. And this warlock is definitely a lot more fun than the one from 2014.
I strongly urge you to not tear it down without having tried it. Try it before you judge. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
I just played the first game of the play test, and to all of you who are rejecting the new warlock I would ask you to try it. Seriously, try it. It works much better than I expected.
I have played a Tomelock. And in the party there was also a bladelock. Both are wonderful, but above all, they are great fun to play. The Tomelock feels almost like a wizard since, spending an hour, you can choose any spell with the ritual tag that is level 1. That's very versatile, and allows you to choose the right rituals for every situation. In addition you can also choose two cantrips each time you summon the book, and these can be from any list. Even though book of shadows allows you to add your Int (or wis) to your damage cantrips, don't choose damage cantrips. For that you already have the eldritch blast. Instead, choose utility cantrips based on the situation. The versatility of the new tomelock is incredible. One could even argue that it's a bit broken in the hands of an analytical gamer. But for me it's fine and, above all, it's super fun to play.
The bladelock felt like an actual gish. I'm not going to talk much about him because it's not what I played. But really, being able to cast shield (in addition to other spells), makes it a much better gish than hexblade. No longer limited to casting Armor of agathys + Shadow of moil (believe me, I played a hexblade up to level 17 and that's what you do with your spell slots because it's better than any other option).He now feels like a real gish.
The only but that I see is that Mystic Arcanum spends an eldritch invocation. The Tomelock is going to spend his level 5+ eldritch invocations on it because he doesn't want to miss out on the other full casters. My bladelock partner didn't pick any Mystic Arcanum, but I did feel it as a "tax to be able to do magic".
In any case, even if it stays that way, for me it is a huge ok. I have always liked warlocks, he is one of my favorite classes. And this warlock is definitely a lot more fun than the one from 2014.
I strongly urge you to not tear it down without having tried it. Try it before you judge. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
Try it, then talk.
I haven't really seen anyone complain about the Pacts, except the changes made Warlocks even more of a dip class.
Where can I find the playtest version of Armor of Agathys btw?
I just played the first game of the play test, and to all of you who are rejecting the new warlock I would ask you to try it. Seriously, try it. It works much better than I expected.
I have played a Tomelock. And in the party there was also a bladelock. Both are wonderful, but above all, they are great fun to play. The Tomelock feels almost like a wizard since, spending an hour, you can choose any spell with the ritual tag that is level 1. That's very versatile, and allows you to choose the right rituals for every situation. In addition you can also choose two cantrips each time you summon the book, and these can be from any list. Even though book of shadows allows you to add your Int (or wis) to your damage cantrips, don't choose damage cantrips. For that you already have the eldritch blast. Instead, choose utility cantrips based on the situation. The versatility of the new tomelock is incredible. One could even argue that it's a bit broken in the hands of an analytical gamer. But for me it's fine and, above all, it's super fun to play.
The bladelock felt like an actual gish. I'm not going to talk much about him because it's not what I played. But really, being able to cast shield (in addition to other spells), makes it a much better gish than hexblade. No longer limited to casting Armor of agathys + Shadow of moil (believe me, I played a hexblade up to level 17 and that's what you do with your spell slots because it's better than any other option).He now feels like a real gish.
The only but that I see is that Mystic Arcanum spends an eldritch invocation. The Tomelock is going to spend his level 5+ eldritch invocations on it because he doesn't want to miss out on the other full casters. My bladelock partner didn't pick any Mystic Arcanum, but I did feel it as a "tax to be able to do magic".
In any case, even if it stays that way, for me it is a huge ok. I have always liked warlocks, he is one of my favorite classes. And this warlock is definitely a lot more fun than the one from 2014.
I strongly urge you to not tear it down without having tried it. Try it before you judge. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
Try it, then talk.
I haven't really seen anyone complain about the Pacts, except the changes made Warlocks even more of a dip class.
Where can I find the playtest version of Armor of Agathys btw?
Armor of agathys is unchanged it is just on the arcane spell list.
I just played the first game of the play test, and to all of you who are rejecting the new warlock I would ask you to try it. Seriously, try it. It works much better than I expected.
I have played a Tomelock. And in the party there was also a bladelock. Both are wonderful, but above all, they are great fun to play. The Tomelock feels almost like a wizard since, spending an hour, you can choose any spell with the ritual tag that is level 1. That's very versatile, and allows you to choose the right rituals for every situation. In addition you can also choose two cantrips each time you summon the book, and these can be from any list. Even though book of shadows allows you to add your Int (or wis) to your damage cantrips, don't choose damage cantrips. For that you already have the eldritch blast. Instead, choose utility cantrips based on the situation. The versatility of the new tomelock is incredible. One could even argue that it's a bit broken in the hands of an analytical gamer. But for me it's fine and, above all, it's super fun to play.
The bladelock felt like an actual gish. I'm not going to talk much about him because it's not what I played. But really, being able to cast shield (in addition to other spells), makes it a much better gish than hexblade. No longer limited to casting Armor of agathys + Shadow of moil (believe me, I played a hexblade up to level 17 and that's what you do with your spell slots because it's better than any other option).He now feels like a real gish.
The only but that I see is that Mystic Arcanum spends an eldritch invocation. The Tomelock is going to spend his level 5+ eldritch invocations on it because he doesn't want to miss out on the other full casters. My bladelock partner didn't pick any Mystic Arcanum, but I did feel it as a "tax to be able to do magic".
In any case, even if it stays that way, for me it is a huge ok. I have always liked warlocks, he is one of my favorite classes. And this warlock is definitely a lot more fun than the one from 2014.
I strongly urge you to not tear it down without having tried it. Try it before you judge. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
Try it, then talk.
I haven't really seen anyone complain about the Pacts, except the changes made Warlocks even more of a dip class.
Where can I find the playtest version of Armor of Agathys btw?
Armor of agathys is unchanged it is just on the arcane spell list.
So it is nerfed beyond usability with the half-caster spell slot progression then.
I just played the first game of the play test, and to all of you who are rejecting the new warlock I would ask you to try it. Seriously, try it. It works much better than I expected.
I have played a Tomelock. And in the party there was also a bladelock. Both are wonderful, but above all, they are great fun to play. The Tomelock feels almost like a wizard since, spending an hour, you can choose any spell with the ritual tag that is level 1. That's very versatile, and allows you to choose the right rituals for every situation. In addition you can also choose two cantrips each time you summon the book, and these can be from any list. Even though book of shadows allows you to add your Int (or wis) to your damage cantrips, don't choose damage cantrips. For that you already have the eldritch blast. Instead, choose utility cantrips based on the situation. The versatility of the new tomelock is incredible. One could even argue that it's a bit broken in the hands of an analytical gamer. But for me it's fine and, above all, it's super fun to play.
The bladelock felt like an actual gish. I'm not going to talk much about him because it's not what I played. But really, being able to cast shield (in addition to other spells), makes it a much better gish than hexblade. No longer limited to casting Armor of agathys + Shadow of moil (believe me, I played a hexblade up to level 17 and that's what you do with your spell slots because it's better than any other option).He now feels like a real gish.
The only but that I see is that Mystic Arcanum spends an eldritch invocation. The Tomelock is going to spend his level 5+ eldritch invocations on it because he doesn't want to miss out on the other full casters. My bladelock partner didn't pick any Mystic Arcanum, but I did feel it as a "tax to be able to do magic".
In any case, even if it stays that way, for me it is a huge ok. I have always liked warlocks, he is one of my favorite classes. And this warlock is definitely a lot more fun than the one from 2014.
I strongly urge you to not tear it down without having tried it. Try it before you judge. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
Try it, then talk.
Tried it. Sucked as much as I thought it would. Half caster with no other "half"
Bladelock was a paladin without aura's. Different spells and no smiting.Also less survivable since you can't take a shield and no plate and less damaging since you cant take a 2 handed heavy weapon and put in GWM
Tomelock couldn't learn any rituals higher than the level ones like they could previously (BoAS is gone and new Book of Shadows doesn't allow copying). I will admit the mechanism for learning new rituals was never fully codified so most people were doing some Wizard spellbook or other hybrid rules. Extra cantrips and 1st level ritual flexibility was nice but nothing to write home about. Plus there are only 13 level one rituals. Sure if I needed to Cast Ceremony or Illusory Script its nice not to have it trained but in reality the rituals were the ones I expected to have anyway. I 100% agree that Tomelock felt like playing a Wizard. So much so that I wondered why I wasn't just playing a Wizard except for the flavor. I was a wizard with less slots, less versatility, and less power. Arguably I did have more HP and better AC but at the high levels is anything really missing you unless you're the ultra-plated out fighter/paladin? Its not like my half plate and Dex was noticeably better than our Wizard's Mage Armor and Dex
Chainlock...I tried. And while there is a kernel of something here it just doesn't work and I can't seem to figure out what niche this is going for. Your familiar is looking at like max 25 hp and 15 AC. 12 damage on a hit. So a bad sneeze kills it and it does pinprick damage if it hits. Keeping it invisible is a pain, I can keep it invisible or I can attack with it. I can attack with it invisible if it was invisible last turn and I don't re-up it. (RAW it ends at the end of the turn after the attack). So I can keep it in melee to let the invisibility drop and to be swatted or AOE'd with some effect that many later game creatures/BBEG have, I can pull it out invisibly but then the it becomes visible and then I have do nothing with it the next turn but make it invisible. The first time I used Favor of the Chain Master was cool since there is no DC to the effects (I don't think they are going to let that last) the BBEG didn't like being poisoned...used a LR and then a LA and killed the familiar at range. Might just have been my DM being funny. I know Chainlocks were more about using the familiar for scouting/communication etc in 5e but they seem to want to makes the Pacts integral to the class. Our rules lawyer player even argued RAW I couldn't make him invisible in combat because of the line "Combat. The familiar is an ally to you and your companions, and it obeys you. In combat, it shares your Initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. On its turn, the familiar takes the Dodge action and uses its Move to avoid danger, unless you use your Reaction to command it to attack instead." As it says it can Dodge and Move, or use my Reaction to Attack. But going Invisible is not an Attack. Also RAW it can't Help as its action in combat either.
Invocation Tax for spells level 6-9 was huge although I didn't technically need to take one for 6, 7, 8, and 9 if there was a level I wanted to skip.
I haven't tested the chain pact, so I can't speak first hand. But reading the class is the one that least attracts my attention. It seems pretty weak, but I would have to try it. I don't plan on doing it in the near future as I want to play a couple more games with the tomelock and then try the new wizard. And if I have time, I would try the bladelock or even the fighter.
If you've tried it and you don't like it, there's nothing to say. It is your opinion. But I would get mad if people start downvoting the warlock without having tried it, since I have loved playing it. I've had a lot of fun with it, and that was already one of my favorite classes. But now I would not like to go back to the warlock of 2014.
...If you've tried it and you don't like it, there's nothing to say. It is your opinion. But I would get mad if people start downvoting the warlock without having tried it, since I have loved playing it...
Welcome to the UA process, where your favorite playtests will be mercilessly drowned in a bathtub, over and over and over again.
No, I'm not bitter about that at all; why do you ask?🤥
I haven't tested the chain pact, so I can't speak first hand. But reading the class is the one that least attracts my attention. It seems pretty weak, but I would have to try it. I don't plan on doing it in the near future as I want to play a couple more games with the tomelock and then try the new wizard. And if I have time, I would try the bladelock or even the fighter.
If you've tried it and you don't like it, there's nothing to say. It is your opinion. But I would get mad if people start downvoting the warlock without having tried it, since I have loved playing it. I've had a lot of fun with it, and that was already one of my favorite classes. But now I would not like to go back to the warlock of 2014.
True that version was bad, but the new one’s not great either. When I tried it, my familiar died very quickly, and I had only 3 level 1 spell slots plus fiend spells, so I couldn’t use very much magic. So I just cast hex and spammed EB. Also the invocation tax is a huge problem, for example at level 2 you need lessons of the first ones and agonizing blast, which you’ll need forever unless you’re a tomelock. And there are a lot of good mystic arcanums, so you’re only left with a few invocations to spend on what you actually want.
Playing warlocks as EB + hex spammers is a really, really unimaginative and boring style of play.
It's also quite clearly what the class was designed to do.
It's really not. The class is designed to be a versatile support caster, with that versatility extending into melee if you go bladelock
You can argue how successful that design was, but claiming a class was designed around one cantrip and one 1st-level spell suggests you don't actually understand what the word "designed" means
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But sure take mask of many faces and take silent image. 4 castings of silent image + minor illusion cantrip is more than enough for 95% of games.
And we're back to "every game is just like my game, therefore [opinion]"
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The second story, same group, same lock, same campaign. We have an encounter where I end up having to dispel a powerful magic trap and then dimension door myself and our best fighter to cut off an escaping enemy. We win that fight, but I am out of slots the ranger's pet is low on health and so are a couple of our NPC'S. We are heading to a ruin or some weird guys house. My character goes, "hey we have some injuries, the ranger's pet is injured so he may want to stop too and bandage him up and I am tired, lets take a quick short rest here before we head up to our destination and get in a fight". The party " you dont know we are going to get into a fight there that's meta gaming." And the ranger "dont tell me how I feel about my pet" and we truck forward. Sure enough we get in a fight and I am stuck shooting eldritch blast, after that, barely saving the lives of the NPC'S the party decides it is a good time to go back to town and take a LONG rest.
As has been pointed out umpteen times in this discussion, there are multiple approaches to solving the short rest issue beyond simply switching features that recharge on short rests to long rests
As has also been pointed out, maybe short rests are a lost cause with the design team, but I can't help but notice that the UA sorc and wizard still have ways to regain slots outside of a long rest, while the warlock doesn't -- and that Arcane Recovery still takes a short rest
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Tried it. Sucked as much as I thought it would. Half caster with no other "half"
Bladelock was a paladin without aura's. Different spells and no smiting.Also less survivable since you can't take a shield and no plate and less damaging since you cant take a 2 handed heavy weapon and put in GWM
Aye, that's the thing that concerns me the most so far. Bladelock gotta measure up to paladin, it's pretty much the benchmark for martiall efficiency. As far as I understand, the other half of warlock is supposed to be Eldritch Blast emulating the single-target damage output of a martial, and invocations providing utility that surpasses skills and some spells.
That the slots reset on short rests instead of long.
And I stated that they should:
Increase the number of Pact Magic slots.
Make them refresh on a long rest instead of a short rest.
Then what in the 9 hells are you arguing with me for?
Because I think Pact Magic slots are a problem too. They make multiclassing Warlock a pain, which is an even more pronounced issue now that Warlocks can have multiple primary ability scores and will thus be attractive for more multiclass builds. And the autoscaling is at best awkward when combined with spells that augment in nonstandard ways or that scale past 5th level. So no - your solution, which I am quoting so you can see that I'm quoting it and there can be no further confusion about what I'm quoting, is not something I can get behind.
One of my complaints is that they made multi-classing less interesting. I'll weigh in on that one first because I think it's less discussed already, not because it's my biggest issue with the changes.
I'm playing a Warlock with a few levels of Sorcerer (17/3 and yes our party is at level 20) for lower level slots, additional spells, metamagic and Con save proficiency. It's working great.
One of my top want-to-play characters is envisioned as a Sword Bard with a bit of Hexblade. 6 level one slots, two of them on a short rest, for unending Shield because otherwise I'd be too squishy.
Sure, half-caster makes multi-classing easier in some ways, but less interesting.
Also, Tomelocks can no longer use Charisma in the UA, making it hard to multiclass them with Sorcerer. Wizard is thematically appropriate but does a Wizard dip really complement Tomelocks very much?.
I could really get behind an Int-based Tomelock staying pure Warlock, but the level 18 ability is completely useless, strongly incentivizing multi-classing.
Tried it. Sucked as much as I thought it would. Half caster with no other "half"
Bladelock was a paladin without aura's. Different spells and no smiting.Also less survivable since you can't take a shield and no plate and less damaging since you cant take a 2 handed heavy weapon and put in GWM
Aye, that's the thing that concerns me the most so far. Bladelock gotta measure up to paladin, it's pretty much the benchmark for martiall efficiency. As far as I understand, the other half of warlock is supposed to be Eldritch Blast emulating the single-target damage output of a martial, and invocations providing utility that surpasses skills and some spells.
Agreed. Paladin is the benchmark to use to start the balancing process for the half caster model. Take their damage/survivability/utility numbers and start tweaking. Warlock lacks heavy armor and heavy weapons and has a smaller hit die so move some points to either utility or damage. They also lack smite burst damage so move more points to utility and damage in other ways. Auras are not a thing for warlock so again, move points to damage or utility. What mechanic is used for that shifting? Invocations/class specific buffs to things like hex.
That the slots reset on short rests instead of long.
And I stated that they should:
Increase the number of Pact Magic slots.
Make them refresh on a long rest instead of a short rest.
Then what in the 9 hells are you arguing with me for?
Because I think Pact Magic slots are a problem too. They make multiclassing Warlock a pain, which is an even more pronounced issue now that Warlocks can have multiple primary ability scores and will thus be attractive for more multiclass builds. And the autoscaling is at best awkward when combined with spells that augment in nonstandard ways or that scale past 5th level. So no - your solution, which I am quoting so you can see that I'm quoting it and there can be no further confusion about what I'm quoting, is not something I can get behind.
One of my complaints is that they made multi-classing less interesting. I'll weigh in on that one first because I think it's less discussed already, not because it's my biggest issue with the changes.
I'm playing a Warlock with a few levels of Sorcerer (17/3 and yes our party is at level 20) for lower level slots, additional spells, metamagic and Con save proficiency. It's working great.
One of my top want-to-play characters is envisioned as a Sword Bard with a bit of Hexblade. 6 level one slots, two of them on a short rest, for unending Shield because otherwise I'd be too squishy.
Sure, half-caster makes multi-classing easier in some ways, but less interesting.
Also, Tomelocks can no longer use Charisma in the UA, making it hard to multiclass them with Sorcerer. Wizard is thematically appropriate but does a Wizard dip really complement Tomelocks very much?.
I could really get behind an Int-based Tomelock staying pure Warlock, but the level 18 ability is completely useless, strongly incentivizing multi-classing.
Idea: you can choose your casting stat from int wis cha regardless of pact boon, but if you multiclass you have to use pact boon spellcasting ability (int tome, wis chain, cha blade). Or you could just move pact boons to level 3 so multiclass dips are more costly.
Fundamentally, I have two concerns about the proposed half-caster Warlock: distinctiveness/flavour and effectiveness.
Currently, it trades fewer total spell slots, and only Mystic Arcanum for spells above 5th level, to hit harder with the spells it does cast, through max-level (up to 5) spell slots and enhanced Eldritch Blast, plus at-will abilities through Invocations.
I don't deny that there are issues with this model, but it means that Warlock keeps up with other casters in the level of their spells up to that point, while playing differently than other spellcasters, and potentially multiclassing with them in interesting ways.
Also on the distinctiveness/flavour side, it's really weird and offputting that Warlocks get their Pact Boon at level 1 but don't decide who it's with until level 3. Sure, Warlocks need to get one of those things at 1 and the other at 3, but doing it this way is really weird, and not in a good way.
For effectiveness, it doesn't work whether you compare against other casters or against 5.0 Warlocks.
Warlocks don't get nearly enough to balance out not having ANY slots as high level as those of other casters of the same character level. And no, spending a scarce Invocation to get a once-a-day casting of a spell is not remotely the same as having a slot and spell(s) known of that level.
We still get Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast. Great but not enough on its own.
Invocations - total number increased by one. Pacts now include 1-2. We lose 4 re-buying our Mystic Arcanum. Net: down 2-3 Invocations.
Hex is nerfed, and also baked into the class so we can't even say "not worth using Concentration on this, I'll learn something else."
Medium armor isn't much and doesn't fit my idea of a Tomelock or Chainlock anyway.
I'm in favour of fixing Pact Magic in ways that others have already suggested, but I do believe in theory this half-caster model can work. But that requires substantially more/stronger Invocations and other Warlock features both to maintain effectiveness and to ensure Warlocks play differently than other classes, rather than just as weak Wizards.
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And that is a great optional rule, but that is too radical a change for the goals that they have.
Before this document even came out I said I was interested in how they would handle warlock, because I got the sense it was going to be a big change. And given how difficult warlock could be to pin down I would not st all be surprised if we are in for some classic A B testing and they probably already have a completely different iteration mostly, locked, loaded and ready to go.
And considering my reaction to this, I am probably going to like it on some of its merits as well.
Yeah would take some finagling with the wording. But I want Warlocks that are good at summoning, and without upcasting past 5th they can't be. If they never get this I'll live, but that's what I want. I still think the half-casting change is good regardless.
Right, and that is why I want mystic arcanum to just be a proper slot. I dont want half the spells of my career to be hard vancian. There is a way to upcast spells, it is called spell slots. I already showed a way to word mystic arcanum to provide a spell slot. You still don't end up with full caster casting because you have less casts.
I just played the first game of the play test, and to all of you who are rejecting the new warlock I would ask you to try it. Seriously, try it. It works much better than I expected.
I have played a Tomelock. And in the party there was also a bladelock. Both are wonderful, but above all, they are great fun to play. The Tomelock feels almost like a wizard since, spending an hour, you can choose any spell with the ritual tag that is level 1. That's very versatile, and allows you to choose the right rituals for every situation. In addition you can also choose two cantrips each time you summon the book, and these can be from any list. Even though book of shadows allows you to add your Int (or wis) to your damage cantrips, don't choose damage cantrips. For that you already have the eldritch blast. Instead, choose utility cantrips based on the situation. The versatility of the new tomelock is incredible. One could even argue that it's a bit broken in the hands of an analytical gamer. But for me it's fine and, above all, it's super fun to play.
The bladelock felt like an actual gish. I'm not going to talk much about him because it's not what I played. But really, being able to cast shield (in addition to other spells), makes it a much better gish than hexblade. No longer limited to casting Armor of agathys + Shadow of moil (believe me, I played a hexblade up to level 17 and that's what you do with your spell slots because it's better than any other option).He now feels like a real gish.
The only but that I see is that Mystic Arcanum spends an eldritch invocation. The Tomelock is going to spend his level 5+ eldritch invocations on it because he doesn't want to miss out on the other full casters. My bladelock partner didn't pick any Mystic Arcanum, but I did feel it as a "tax to be able to do magic".
In any case, even if it stays that way, for me it is a huge ok. I have always liked warlocks, he is one of my favorite classes. And this warlock is definitely a lot more fun than the one from 2014.
I strongly urge you to not tear it down without having tried it. Try it before you judge. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
Try it, then talk.
I haven't really seen anyone complain about the Pacts, except the changes made Warlocks even more of a dip class.
Where can I find the playtest version of Armor of Agathys btw?
Armor of agathys is unchanged it is just on the arcane spell list.
So it is nerfed beyond usability with the half-caster spell slot progression then.
Tried it. Sucked as much as I thought it would. Half caster with no other "half"
Bladelock was a paladin without aura's. Different spells and no smiting.Also less survivable since you can't take a shield and no plate and less damaging since you cant take a 2 handed heavy weapon and put in GWM
Tomelock couldn't learn any rituals higher than the level ones like they could previously (BoAS is gone and new Book of Shadows doesn't allow copying). I will admit the mechanism for learning new rituals was never fully codified so most people were doing some Wizard spellbook or other hybrid rules. Extra cantrips and 1st level ritual flexibility was nice but nothing to write home about. Plus there are only 13 level one rituals. Sure if I needed to Cast Ceremony or Illusory Script its nice not to have it trained but in reality the rituals were the ones I expected to have anyway. I 100% agree that Tomelock felt like playing a Wizard. So much so that I wondered why I wasn't just playing a Wizard except for the flavor. I was a wizard with less slots, less versatility, and less power. Arguably I did have more HP and better AC but at the high levels is anything really missing you unless you're the ultra-plated out fighter/paladin? Its not like my half plate and Dex was noticeably better than our Wizard's Mage Armor and Dex
Chainlock...I tried. And while there is a kernel of something here it just doesn't work and I can't seem to figure out what niche this is going for. Your familiar is looking at like max 25 hp and 15 AC. 12 damage on a hit. So a bad sneeze kills it and it does pinprick damage if it hits. Keeping it invisible is a pain, I can keep it invisible or I can attack with it. I can attack with it invisible if it was invisible last turn and I don't re-up it. (RAW it ends at the end of the turn after the attack). So I can keep it in melee to let the invisibility drop and to be swatted or AOE'd with some effect that many later game creatures/BBEG have, I can pull it out invisibly but then the it becomes visible and then I have do nothing with it the next turn but make it invisible. The first time I used Favor of the Chain Master was cool since there is no DC to the effects (I don't think they are going to let that last) the BBEG didn't like being poisoned...used a LR and then a LA and killed the familiar at range. Might just have been my DM being funny. I know Chainlocks were more about using the familiar for scouting/communication etc in 5e but they seem to want to makes the Pacts integral to the class. Our rules lawyer player even argued RAW I couldn't make him invisible in combat because of the line "Combat. The familiar is an ally to you and your companions, and it obeys you. In combat, it shares your Initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. On its turn, the familiar takes the Dodge action and uses its Move to avoid danger, unless you use your Reaction to command it to attack instead." As it says it can Dodge and Move, or use my Reaction to Attack. But going Invisible is not an Attack. Also RAW it can't Help as its action in combat either.
Invocation Tax for spells level 6-9 was huge although I didn't technically need to take one for 6, 7, 8, and 9 if there was a level I wanted to skip.
Edited spelling.
I haven't tested the chain pact, so I can't speak first hand. But reading the class is the one that least attracts my attention. It seems pretty weak, but I would have to try it. I don't plan on doing it in the near future as I want to play a couple more games with the tomelock and then try the new wizard. And if I have time, I would try the bladelock or even the fighter.
If you've tried it and you don't like it, there's nothing to say. It is your opinion. But I would get mad if people start downvoting the warlock without having tried it, since I have loved playing it. I've had a lot of fun with it, and that was already one of my favorite classes. But now I would not like to go back to the warlock of 2014.
Welcome to the UA process, where your favorite playtests will be mercilessly drowned in a bathtub, over and over and over again.
No, I'm not bitter about that at all; why do you ask?🤥
True that version was bad, but the new one’s not great either. When I tried it, my familiar died very quickly, and I had only 3 level 1 spell slots plus fiend spells, so I couldn’t use very much magic. So I just cast hex and spammed EB. Also the invocation tax is a huge problem, for example at level 2 you need lessons of the first ones and agonizing blast, which you’ll need forever unless you’re a tomelock. And there are a lot of good mystic arcanums, so you’re only left with a few invocations to spend on what you actually want.
It's really not. The class is designed to be a versatile support caster, with that versatility extending into melee if you go bladelock
You can argue how successful that design was, but claiming a class was designed around one cantrip and one 1st-level spell suggests you don't actually understand what the word "designed" means
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And we're back to "every game is just like my game, therefore [opinion]"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
As has been pointed out umpteen times in this discussion, there are multiple approaches to solving the short rest issue beyond simply switching features that recharge on short rests to long rests
As has also been pointed out, maybe short rests are a lost cause with the design team, but I can't help but notice that the UA sorc and wizard still have ways to regain slots outside of a long rest, while the warlock doesn't -- and that Arcane Recovery still takes a short rest
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Aye, that's the thing that concerns me the most so far. Bladelock gotta measure up to paladin, it's pretty much the benchmark for martiall efficiency. As far as I understand, the other half of warlock is supposed to be Eldritch Blast emulating the single-target damage output of a martial, and invocations providing utility that surpasses skills and some spells.
One of my complaints is that they made multi-classing less interesting. I'll weigh in on that one first because I think it's less discussed already, not because it's my biggest issue with the changes.
I'm playing a Warlock with a few levels of Sorcerer (17/3 and yes our party is at level 20) for lower level slots, additional spells, metamagic and Con save proficiency. It's working great.
One of my top want-to-play characters is envisioned as a Sword Bard with a bit of Hexblade. 6 level one slots, two of them on a short rest, for unending Shield because otherwise I'd be too squishy.
Sure, half-caster makes multi-classing easier in some ways, but less interesting.
Also, Tomelocks can no longer use Charisma in the UA, making it hard to multiclass them with Sorcerer. Wizard is thematically appropriate but does a Wizard dip really complement Tomelocks very much?.
I could really get behind an Int-based Tomelock staying pure Warlock, but the level 18 ability is completely useless, strongly incentivizing multi-classing.
Agreed. Paladin is the benchmark to use to start the balancing process for the half caster model. Take their damage/survivability/utility numbers and start tweaking. Warlock lacks heavy armor and heavy weapons and has a smaller hit die so move some points to either utility or damage. They also lack smite burst damage so move more points to utility and damage in other ways. Auras are not a thing for warlock so again, move points to damage or utility. What mechanic is used for that shifting? Invocations/class specific buffs to things like hex.
Idea: you can choose your casting stat from int wis cha regardless of pact boon, but if you multiclass you have to use pact boon spellcasting ability (int tome, wis chain, cha blade). Or you could just move pact boons to level 3 so multiclass dips are more costly.
Fundamentally, I have two concerns about the proposed half-caster Warlock: distinctiveness/flavour and effectiveness.
Currently, it trades fewer total spell slots, and only Mystic Arcanum for spells above 5th level, to hit harder with the spells it does cast, through max-level (up to 5) spell slots and enhanced Eldritch Blast, plus at-will abilities through Invocations.
I don't deny that there are issues with this model, but it means that Warlock keeps up with other casters in the level of their spells up to that point, while playing differently than other spellcasters, and potentially multiclassing with them in interesting ways.
Also on the distinctiveness/flavour side, it's really weird and offputting that Warlocks get their Pact Boon at level 1 but don't decide who it's with until level 3. Sure, Warlocks need to get one of those things at 1 and the other at 3, but doing it this way is really weird, and not in a good way.
For effectiveness, it doesn't work whether you compare against other casters or against 5.0 Warlocks.
Warlocks don't get nearly enough to balance out not having ANY slots as high level as those of other casters of the same character level. And no, spending a scarce Invocation to get a once-a-day casting of a spell is not remotely the same as having a slot and spell(s) known of that level.
We still get Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast. Great but not enough on its own.
Invocations - total number increased by one. Pacts now include 1-2. We lose 4 re-buying our Mystic Arcanum. Net: down 2-3 Invocations.
Hex is nerfed, and also baked into the class so we can't even say "not worth using Concentration on this, I'll learn something else."
Medium armor isn't much and doesn't fit my idea of a Tomelock or Chainlock anyway.
I'm in favour of fixing Pact Magic in ways that others have already suggested, but I do believe in theory this half-caster model can work. But that requires substantially more/stronger Invocations and other Warlock features both to maintain effectiveness and to ensure Warlocks play differently than other classes, rather than just as weak Wizards.