So does no one want all invocations and no spells anymore?
A build like this might work for a class like a Psion, or something that is designed to be a simple caster. However, while this would be a viable build if the Invocations were powerful enough, I think that it would completely change a preexisting class and risk alienating the fan base that likes having both some spells and Eldritch Invocations. It would honestly be quite hard to change the class so drastically and still keep the core features that made it the third most popular class in 5e.
While not nearly as radical 1/2 magic is a pretty drastic change. I'm kind of surprised they went with that big of a change for a class that is apparently the 3rd most popular. A couple better spell add invocations and maybe 1-2 more spells over 20 levels would have been much safer. For me it was a big swing and a miss but I guess at least it was a big swing.
So does no one want all invocations and no spells anymore?
A build like this might work for a class like a Psion, or something that is designed to be a simple caster. However, while this would be a viable build if the Invocations were powerful enough, I think that it would completely change a preexisting class and risk alienating the fan base that likes having both some spells and Eldritch Invocations. It would honestly be quite hard to change the class so drastically and still keep the core features that made it the third most popular class in 5e.
While not nearly as radical 1/2 magic is a pretty drastic change. I'm kind of surprised they went with that big of a change for a class that is apparently the 3rd most popular. A couple better spell add invocations and maybe 1-2 more spells over 20 levels would have been much safer. For me it was a big swing and a miss but I guess at least it was a big swing.
I am mostly fine with the change. Warlock was already effectually not a full caster: They had far fewer spell slots than other classes, and only had access to high level magic via abilities that let them cast spells of 6-9th level once between a long rest. Short rests are very hard to build a class off, and this change ensures that though Warlocks won't have access to as powerful magic, they will actually be able to use the spells that they do have without feeling useless for much of the day, and like their hand are tied behind their back.
I do agree that this change is somewhat surprising, but just because a class is popular does not mean that it cannot be improved upon and changed. Or perhaps the data we got isn't fully up to date and some have soured on the class more recently? Regardless, this change does not spell doom for me and in fact makes me a bit more interested in trying the class out.
I did say it earlier, and I will say it again though: I hope we get a simple caster, because if Warlock was ever even remotely one, it certainly isn't now. Statistics show that simple sells, and it would be sad for players who don't like as much complexity to be relegated to Warriors.
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I'm pretty sure the design intent of the original warlock is that you'd cast one spell in the traditional 3 round combat, then eldritch blast the other two rounds, and you have two combats per short rest.
A lot of the balance problems in 5e come from making assumptions about how people will actually play that aren't true.
Warlocks currently work just fine for what they are. What they are, is an arcane archer. They do that quite well. If you view them as a SPELLCASTER, then they don't really stack up.
Then why are they in the Mage group? Why are they being touted as an equivalent spellcaster to wizards and sorcerers, if in different ways? If they're not supposed to cast spells, why are they being bundled in with the castiest of casty boys?
What else would you call them?
Imo, if their main role is DPS, their DPS needs to be significantly better than other casters (I'm not convinced it is), and it needs niche protection against multiclass BS (which it mostly has in the playtest, to be fair). You absolutely shouldn't be able to functionally replace a DPS class with a built-for-damage Wizard or something. Whether the DPS be Warlock or Fighter or whatever. I'm not a numbers person but I'm pretty sure you kinda can, as it stands now.
But 5e (and One) doesn't differentiate between DPS and Zoner and so on like 4e did. (Striker and... I forget what.) Instead we have Warrior and Mage and such. Descriptions of fantasy, not of tactical role. And as a description of the fantasy, yes, Mage fits.
If the 1.5 encounter per day stats are accurate, I'd say no ones DPS really outpaces full casters, especially arcane casters. When every fight you can start at the top of your list of spells and work down with no concern over running out, you will win in DPR, control, whatever you decide to focus on.
Yeah, I mean, a Wizard has 7 leveled spells a day at level 3. If an average combat lasts 3 turns, he can cast a leveled spell every turn for two combat encounters, and never run out. If he only has two combat encounters in a day then his spell slots are basically a formality. (The 1.5/day number isn't correct but it is illustrative of my point, which stands regardless, it's just less pronounced in reality.)
But also, his leveled spells allow him to step into other classes' niches with impunity, so long as he can afford to cast them. Never mind that he has his own niches he can fill, such as zoning, arcane interfacing, AoE blasting or esoteric info gathering -- he can also open locked doors, sneak around, deal massive single target damage, tank hits, charm NPCs, provide food and shelter, grapple a monster, lift a thousand pound boulder...
I think if you trimmed the ridiculous breadth of spells to only facilitate Actual Wizard Shit for Wizards (and so on for the others), it would go a long way. After all, we're not letting Fighters spend their Action Surges to turn invisible for up to an hour, or letting Rogues use Cunning Action to heal a target within 30ft for 1d4+Dex HP. This is what I (and others) mean by niche protection.
To bring it back to Warlock: I think they'd resonate a lot better if it wasn't so damn easy to deal a ton of consistent magical damage to a single target at range, don't you? They might not even need half the crap they have cluttering up their rules. Yeah, you'd lose some of the more offbeat Warlocks that don't do DPS or whatever. I don't care.
(Actually my preferred Warlock niche wouldn't be DPS, but that hardly matters. DPS is what it's gonna be.)
I'm pretty sure the design intent of the original warlock is that you'd cast one spell in the traditional 3 round combat, then eldritch blast the other two rounds, and you have two combats per short rest.
A lot of the balance problems in 5e come from making assumptions about how people will actually play that aren't true.
It probably is fairly normal to cast one good sustained spell(sadly hex isn't good) and then pepper with eldritch blasts or other attacks. Its not far off from what a wizard does except they use leveled spells for their continued assault. Eldritch blast stacks up against level 1-2 spells fairly well in that regard. The issue comes in at higher levels of play where the wizard has one sustained spell and then starts dropping fireballs and cones of cold for their round over round damage. If Eldritch blast either scaled bigger in damage or got high level add on effects better than pushes(why did they nerf that, give them the one niche of push anything, hex could fill in for the add on effects) maybe they would keep up.
It probably is fairly normal to cast one good sustained spell(sadly hex isn't good)
I wouldn't say hex is horrible, though it's not great either. It would be interesting to give warlocks smite-type curses instead of hex, though (if you hit someone with an eldritch blast or pact weapon, you can follow up with a curse). Something like that could make half-caster still decently good. For example:
Invocation: Curse Blast/Blade
Select a warlock spell that you can cast (either as a spell or a mystic arcanum) that targets a creature and is not a cantrip. When you hit a creature with Eldritch Blast or your Pact Weapon, you may immediately cast the selected spell as a bonus action, targeting that creature (you must fulfill all other requirements of casting the spell; if the spell can target multiple creatures, you may only target creatures you hit with the triggering blast). In addition, gain one of the following benefits (chosen when you take the invocation)
You have advantage on the spell's attack roll.
The target has disadvantage on its first save against the spell.
You may ignore the normal range of the spell.
You may take this invocation multiple times, selecting a different spell every time.
As a damage combo, that's actually quite respectable -- against an AC 15 target, a tomelock at level 5 might use eldritch blast (attack +7/1d10+4, average damage, counting misses and critical hits, 12.9) and follow up with Scorching Ray (counting misses and crits, 20.5) for 33.4 damage on average. Or you can cast a debuff, like hold person or blindness/deafness.
I doubt you would see it used much on a mystic arcanum, since one use per day, but no reason not to list it as an option.
... I did say it earlier, and I will say it again though: I hope we get a simple caster, because if Warlock was ever even remotely one, it certainly isn't now. Statistics show that simple sells, and it would be sad for players who don't like as much complexity to be relegated to Warriors.
Don't. You. *******. Dare. Drag that bullshit into warlock.
DON'T YOU ******* DARE.
You keep lying saying that you're "all for" having a wide range of options for both total simpletons and people who actually know how to play D&D. Guess what? Warlock is for people who know how to D&D. It is one of TWO classes that actually provides some degree of responsiveness and flexibility, and artificers are being abandoned in 1DD so they'll stop counting in a year. You've steadfastly refused to acknowledge that any martial class should ever have anything to offer anyone but a total simpleton, you DO NOT get to start pulling that same ******* garbage in the Mage group.
You.
Do.
NOT.
Wow the gate keeping is strong with this. Its a game, calm down. People can play however they want. People can have opinions all they want. We've had to listen to yours even if we disagree.
It probably is fairly normal to cast one good sustained spell(sadly hex isn't good)
I wouldn't say hex is horrible, though it's not great either. It would be interesting to give warlocks smite-type curses instead of hex, though (if you hit someone with an eldritch blast or pact weapon, you can follow up with a curse). Something like that could make half-caster still decently good. For example:
Invocation: Curse Blast/Blade
Select a warlock spell that you can cast (either as a spell or a mystic arcanum) that targets a creature and is not a cantrip. When you hit a creature with Eldritch Blast or your Pact Weapon, you may immediately cast the selected spell as a bonus action, targeting that creature (you must fulfill all other requirements of casting the spell; if the spell can target multiple creatures, you may only target creatures you hit with the triggering blast). In addition, gain one of the following benefits (chosen when you take the invocation)
You have advantage on the spell's attack roll.
The target has disadvantage on its first save against the spell.
You may ignore the normal range of the spell.
You may take this invocation multiple times, selecting a different spell every time.
As a damage combo, that's actually quite respectable -- against an AC 15 target, a tomelock at level 5 might use eldritch blast (attack +7/1d10+4, average damage, counting misses and critical hits, 12.9) and follow up with Scorching Ray (counting misses and crits, 20.5) for 33.4 damage on average. Or you can cast a debuff, like hold person or blindness/deafness.
I doubt you would see it used much on a mystic arcanum, since one use per day, but no reason not to list it as an option.
Something like that is pretty solid, and even with pact magic it could work if the invocation gave one cast for free or something. Things like that is what I thought hex should become. And yeah hex isn't bad, its just not good. It really needs no concentration or be seriously buffed as there are just too many concentration spells that are much better.
But if hex was a platform for solid invocations instead of the really sad maddening hex or relentless hex, both of which conceptually are not bad but mechanically really are not worth the invocation. But hey if hexer gave 600 ft range and relentless hex stopped requiring line of sight it would be solid. Or if instead of teleportation it broke line of effect requirements for your spells, so once a target was hexed you could hit them no matter where they fled. It has a great thematic punch and is more balanced than the new gaze of two minds which is flat out insane. I can't see how that survives play test.
Speaking of hexer if it was 600ft, you can change targets of hex even if the target is not dead with a bonus action, it might be worth it for the utility of the disadvantage part of hex outside of combat. Or if there was some way to put hex up on multiple targets. Add some deeper curse functions into hex.
... I did say it earlier, and I will say it again though: I hope we get a simple caster, because if Warlock was ever even remotely one, it certainly isn't now. Statistics show that simple sells, and it would be sad for players who don't like as much complexity to be relegated to Warriors.
Don't. You. *******. Dare. Drag that bullshit into warlock.
DON'T YOU ******* DARE.
You keep lying saying that you're "all for" having a wide range of options for both total simpletons and people who actually know how to play D&D. Guess what? Warlock is for people who know how to D&D. It is one of TWO classes that actually provides some degree of responsiveness and flexibility, and artificers are being abandoned in 1DD so they'll stop counting in a year. You've steadfastly refused to acknowledge that any martial class should ever have anything to offer anyone but a total simpleton, you DO NOT get to start pulling that same ******* garbage in the Mage group.
You.
Do.
NOT.
Your opinion is well known, but would one easier caster really be so damn tough for ya? I ask that rhetorically, but I know you'll answer it with some gatekeeping stuff about how it attracts murderhobos and asswipes and takes the great wealth that is a part of a book away from good honest D&D players like you to give to people who don't want to play the game the way you do. If you're one thing, it's reliable.
I'm not saying that Warlock has to be a simple caster (I'd actually prefer something more thematically standard to fill that role), I'm saying that just because the 2014 version is pretty easy to mess up doesn't mean the new version has to be just as difficult. I get the desire for a more complex/customizable class, but that can be something other than Warlock. Expanding more on the Modify Spell spell that Wizards got (and preferably moving it to Sorcerers, but eh) could lead into a very interesting system of psuedo-homebrew and individuality.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I know this is probably just going to be ignored and/or shouted at, but can we all please try to discuss this without shouting or snide personal attacks?
I know this is probably just going to be ignored and/or shouted at, but can we all please try to discuss this without shouting or snide personal attacks?
If this advice were more followed, I believe this would be a much better world. How does getting upset at people ever really contribute to a conversation? Exceptions for things that are funny.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I did say it earlier, and I will say it again though: I hope we get a simple caster, because if Warlock was ever even remotely one, it certainly isn't now. Statistics show that simple sells, and it would be sad for players who don't like as much complexity to be relegated to Warriors.
Isn't that Clerics? Relatively few abilities outside of spells, all class spells known, swap out usable spells every long rest if they make a bad choice. Worst case, "I do healy / buffy stuff" every turn.
i'm wholly onboard with the "half-caster that can punch up to full caster progression in limited ways," but i'm way less enthused by "layer in more martial pursuits" at start-up. am i to understand that all locks just begin adventuring life with body-type: athletic mage. is it the heavy black boots and trenchcoats in adolescence that lead to the medium armor aptitude? is there a lot more jogging in the level-0 preparation for locks than there is for sorc and wiz? can we please canonize an early pact with a gym demon or being bit by a radioactive rust monster? just a little crumb of continuity or plausibility! this has been bugging me...
I think some of your disconnect here may lie in how you're choosing to frame this. D&D's default assumption is a quasi-medieval, heroic fantasy world (source: DMG 38). That means the default is... not necessarily athleticism per se, but the characters who pursue the life of adventurer are those that on some level expect to be walking long distances on foot for a lot of their career - certainly at the outset - and getting blades, clubs, claws, fangs and arrows shoved in their faces at some point. Some degree of armor training is not out of the ordinary for such characters, and the ones who don't have that are the ones who have a really damn good reason not to have pursued it - whether that reason is scholarship (wizardry), innate magic (sorcery), or training their bodies to not need any (asceticism). And even for those characters who do next to nothing physically, the lowest their physical stats generally end up being for the most part is an 8, assuming standard array.
This is a long-winded way of saying that for those who choose to pursue warlock...ery? ...having armor training is not all that strange. Most characters in the world should be interested in armor, unless the nature of their profession gets in the way of it. If Bards, Clerics and Druids can find the time for it, why not them? And for Warlocks in particular, who are learning secret shortcuts to arcane power, some of those secrets would feasibly include "here are the cool simpler gestures that let you throw a fireball while wearing scale mail, shhhh."
Now, I wouldn't be against them dropping the medium armor for light armor + shields. Or even getting outright medium armor + shields like clerics do. But I think the current armor proficiencies aren't too outlandish for them either.
... I did say it earlier, and I will say it again though: I hope we get a simple caster, because if Warlock was ever even remotely one, it certainly isn't now. Statistics show that simple sells, and it would be sad for players who don't like as much complexity to be relegated to Warriors.
Don't. You. *******. Dare. Drag that bullshit into warlock.
DON'T YOU ******* DARE.
You keep lying saying that you're "all for" having a wide range of options for both total simpletons and people who actually know how to play D&D. Guess what? Warlock is for people who know how to D&D. It is one of TWO classes that actually provides some degree of responsiveness and flexibility, and artificers are being abandoned in 1DD so they'll stop counting in a year. You've steadfastly refused to acknowledge that any martial class should ever have anything to offer anyone but a total simpleton, you DO NOT get to start pulling that same ******* garbage in the Mage group.
You.
Do.
NOT.
Your opinion is well known, but would one easier caster really be so damn tough for ya? I ask that rhetorically, but I know you'll answer it with some gatekeeping stuff about how it attracts murderhobos and asswipes and takes the great wealth that is a part of a book away from good honest D&D players like you to give to people who don't want to play the game the way you do. If you're one thing, it's reliable.
I'm not saying that Warlock has to be a simple caster (I'd actually prefer something more thematically standard to fill that role), I'm saying that just because the 2014 version is pretty easy to mess up doesn't mean the new version has to be just as difficult. I get the desire for a more complex/customizable class, but that can be something other than Warlock. Expanding more on the Modify Spell spell that Wizards got (and preferably moving it to Sorcerers, but eh) could lead into a very interesting system of psuedo-homebrew and individuality.
I personally feel like Cleric and Paladin already kind of fit the role of "Simple caster" Divine spells are typically pretty straight forward + the decent health and great armor makes them pretty new player friendly from my experience.
Mystic Arcanum goes back to being their own thing but they start at level 2 with a 1st level one and you get one at every level that full casters get new spell levels. 3,5,7, etc. You can pick any spell off the arcane list and can change one MA when you level up for another spell of the same level. We go back to pact magic but make it a long rest to recharge. Then at 3rd level you gain an ability combines to the draw power I suggested and the blood sacrifice I saw on someone else’s post into something new. We make it warlock cantrip since it’s an easy to explain mechanic.
Blood for Power
Casting time 1 minute
range self
components V,M (weapon or improvised weapon that deals slashing or piercing damage)
You expend one hit die in an attempt to gain additional magical power. You attempt to create a spell slot any level equal to or lower than your pact magic spell slots. Roll the Hit Die and if the roll meets or is higher than the spell slot you are attempting to make it coalesces and can be used to cast any spell you have prepared of that level or lower. You may only have one spell slot from this cantrip at one time. While that spell slot exist this cantrip is unavailable to you. Once you have expended it the spell slot vanishes and you may use this cantrip again. The spell slot is also lost when you finish a long rest. Starting at 5th level in warlock if you roll and fail to create your spell slot you may expend a second hit die, roll it and add it to the result. At 11th if you rolled 2 hit dice and the combined result still failed you may roll a third hit die and add it to the result. At 17th if you expended three hit dice and the result still failed you may expend a fourth hit die and you create the spell slot. You may only create spell slots 2x your proficiency bonus per long rest. If you have expended a pact magic slot you may use this cantrip to instead replenish it. Treat it as creating a spell slot of the same level of your pact magic slot except replenishing it doesn’t count against the number of times you can create spell slots per long rest.
This build gives you more uses of magic with Mystic Arcanums from 1st -9th level spells once a day and pact magic that doesn’t require a short rest to recharge. The ability to create new spell slots of lower levels if you want. It balances this by capping the number of new slots to 2x pb and costing a hit die with a chance of failure that increases as you gain more powerful the slot you wish to create which is capped at 5 by your pact magic slots. I can imagine someone being really lucky with the rolls at lvl 20 having 24 5th level pact magic spell slots in one day if they only use the cantrip to recharge. In game I can’t imagine it mattering, but on paper it’s broken.
So back to warlock with this. A simple Analysis of each of the pacts.
Starting with Pact of the tome. This one is probably the most functional of all the pacts. It gives 2 ritual spells and 2 cantrips before it just gave 3 cantrips and that was it, you needed to take book of ancient secrets to get ritual spells. In addition, you can recast it in one hour and pick 2 other cantrips and ritual spells. Before changing the cantrips could only happen on level up and you had to find scrolls of ritual spells and copy them into the book to get more ritual spells. In addition at level 5 you get an improved agonizing blast for free. This means that Pact of the Tome warlocks transition well into eldritch blasters with pairings of things like eldritch spear, and repelling blast. Not surprisingly on its own this is just under martials using a bow. A fighter with a long bow can get push on its attack but will also have the archery fighting style for an extra +2 to attack, and both the fighter and the lock will probably pick up spell sniper/ Sharpshooter which are basically the same in this edition.
Pact of the Blade. This one is a little overblown on how good it is. You can only use non-heavy weapons, and you only have proficiency with the pact weapon itself. Yes the build means you only have to worry about charisma but all the damage feats for weapons are tied to strength and dexterity. So first the best weapons are all versatile d10 weapons and second the only feat that keeps you SAD that actually helps you as a melee is Warcaster. Finally, the only feats that actually work with the versatile weapons are the new Weapon Mastery feat, The charger feat, the duel wielder feat (Using a hand-axe since it is a light weapon, but this would mean using your strength or dagger since it is finesse light and would make you MAD anyway). The only invocation to help blade is Life Drinker at 9.
Pact of the Chain, I think this has been said to death. The health is too low, the stats are too low, there isn't anything differentiating the types besides damage until level 9. It still has all the invocation taxes it did.
This has been a pseudo deep dive about New Warlock pacts.
I haven't seen the chain pact in play. But really on paper it seems the worst option of the three. Also I don't understand what they want to do with that design. It looks like the designer wants you to use your familiar in combat, but it's too weak for that. I honestly wish they had designed it just to explore, and give it utility options. Or if you're doing it for combat, fine, but design it in a way that it can fill that role. Or maybe they should give you options to customize your familiar in one direction or another.
In any case, it should be seen in play. Sometimes there are features that only make sense when playing.
I haven't seen the chain pact in play. But really on paper it seems the worst option of the three. Also I don't understand what they want to do with that design. It looks like the designer wants you to use your familiar in combat, but it's too weak for that. I honestly wish they had designed it just to explore, and give it utility options. Or if you're doing it for combat, fine, but design it in a way that it can fill that role. Or maybe they should give you options to customize your familiar in one direction or another.
In any case, it should be seen in play. Sometimes there are features that only make sense when playing.
This is kind of what i meant by its stats are too low. You get to add your PB to EVERYTHING which is great, but with the highest stat on the Familiar being a 14 the skill checks it is going to do aren't going to be that great + its limits on invisibility duration + the lack of any other feature (like Imp and quasit shape shifting or the sprites heart sense ability) all really hurt it. Voice is decent but was never mandatory. That used to be a big benefit of Chain as well. The tome and the blades "invocation taxes" were more felt if you didn't take them, but with chain you could take none of their "tax" except agonizing blast and still have a super powered familiar. Now it is barely better than the normal familiar which everyone has access to, even the blade lock.
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While not nearly as radical 1/2 magic is a pretty drastic change. I'm kind of surprised they went with that big of a change for a class that is apparently the 3rd most popular. A couple better spell add invocations and maybe 1-2 more spells over 20 levels would have been much safer. For me it was a big swing and a miss but I guess at least it was a big swing.
Wait. Cha based full caster warlock sounds like a sorcerer to me. What justification is there for invocations and eldritch blast’s power.
I am mostly fine with the change. Warlock was already effectually not a full caster: They had far fewer spell slots than other classes, and only had access to high level magic via abilities that let them cast spells of 6-9th level once between a long rest. Short rests are very hard to build a class off, and this change ensures that though Warlocks won't have access to as powerful magic, they will actually be able to use the spells that they do have without feeling useless for much of the day, and like their hand are tied behind their back.
I do agree that this change is somewhat surprising, but just because a class is popular does not mean that it cannot be improved upon and changed. Or perhaps the data we got isn't fully up to date and some have soured on the class more recently? Regardless, this change does not spell doom for me and in fact makes me a bit more interested in trying the class out.
I did say it earlier, and I will say it again though: I hope we get a simple caster, because if Warlock was ever even remotely one, it certainly isn't now. Statistics show that simple sells, and it would be sad for players who don't like as much complexity to be relegated to Warriors.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.I'm pretty sure the design intent of the original warlock is that you'd cast one spell in the traditional 3 round combat, then eldritch blast the other two rounds, and you have two combats per short rest.
A lot of the balance problems in 5e come from making assumptions about how people will actually play that aren't true.
Yeah, I mean, a Wizard has 7 leveled spells a day at level 3. If an average combat lasts 3 turns, he can cast a leveled spell every turn for two combat encounters, and never run out. If he only has two combat encounters in a day then his spell slots are basically a formality. (The 1.5/day number isn't correct but it is illustrative of my point, which stands regardless, it's just less pronounced in reality.)
But also, his leveled spells allow him to step into other classes' niches with impunity, so long as he can afford to cast them. Never mind that he has his own niches he can fill, such as zoning, arcane interfacing, AoE blasting or esoteric info gathering -- he can also open locked doors, sneak around, deal massive single target damage, tank hits, charm NPCs, provide food and shelter, grapple a monster, lift a thousand pound boulder...
I think if you trimmed the ridiculous breadth of spells to only facilitate Actual Wizard Shit for Wizards (and so on for the others), it would go a long way. After all, we're not letting Fighters spend their Action Surges to turn invisible for up to an hour, or letting Rogues use Cunning Action to heal a target within 30ft for 1d4+Dex HP. This is what I (and others) mean by niche protection.
To bring it back to Warlock: I think they'd resonate a lot better if it wasn't so damn easy to deal a ton of consistent magical damage to a single target at range, don't you? They might not even need half the crap they have cluttering up their rules. Yeah, you'd lose some of the more offbeat Warlocks that don't do DPS or whatever. I don't care.
(Actually my preferred Warlock niche wouldn't be DPS, but that hardly matters. DPS is what it's gonna be.)
It probably is fairly normal to cast one good sustained spell(sadly hex isn't good) and then pepper with eldritch blasts or other attacks. Its not far off from what a wizard does except they use leveled spells for their continued assault. Eldritch blast stacks up against level 1-2 spells fairly well in that regard. The issue comes in at higher levels of play where the wizard has one sustained spell and then starts dropping fireballs and cones of cold for their round over round damage. If Eldritch blast either scaled bigger in damage or got high level add on effects better than pushes(why did they nerf that, give them the one niche of push anything, hex could fill in for the add on effects) maybe they would keep up.
I wouldn't say hex is horrible, though it's not great either. It would be interesting to give warlocks smite-type curses instead of hex, though (if you hit someone with an eldritch blast or pact weapon, you can follow up with a curse). Something like that could make half-caster still decently good. For example:
As a damage combo, that's actually quite respectable -- against an AC 15 target, a tomelock at level 5 might use eldritch blast (attack +7/1d10+4, average damage, counting misses and critical hits, 12.9) and follow up with Scorching Ray (counting misses and crits, 20.5) for 33.4 damage on average. Or you can cast a debuff, like hold person or blindness/deafness.
I doubt you would see it used much on a mystic arcanum, since one use per day, but no reason not to list it as an option.
Wow the gate keeping is strong with this. Its a game, calm down. People can play however they want. People can have opinions all they want. We've had to listen to yours even if we disagree.
Something like that is pretty solid, and even with pact magic it could work if the invocation gave one cast for free or something. Things like that is what I thought hex should become. And yeah hex isn't bad, its just not good. It really needs no concentration or be seriously buffed as there are just too many concentration spells that are much better.
But if hex was a platform for solid invocations instead of the really sad maddening hex or relentless hex, both of which conceptually are not bad but mechanically really are not worth the invocation. But hey if hexer gave 600 ft range and relentless hex stopped requiring line of sight it would be solid. Or if instead of teleportation it broke line of effect requirements for your spells, so once a target was hexed you could hit them no matter where they fled. It has a great thematic punch and is more balanced than the new gaze of two minds which is flat out insane. I can't see how that survives play test.
Speaking of hexer if it was 600ft, you can change targets of hex even if the target is not dead with a bonus action, it might be worth it for the utility of the disadvantage part of hex outside of combat. Or if there was some way to put hex up on multiple targets. Add some deeper curse functions into hex.
Your opinion is well known, but would one easier caster really be so damn tough for ya? I ask that rhetorically, but I know you'll answer it with some gatekeeping stuff about how it attracts murderhobos and asswipes and takes the great wealth that is a part of a book away from good honest D&D players like you to give to people who don't want to play the game the way you do. If you're one thing, it's reliable.
I'm not saying that Warlock has to be a simple caster (I'd actually prefer something more thematically standard to fill that role), I'm saying that just because the 2014 version is pretty easy to mess up doesn't mean the new version has to be just as difficult. I get the desire for a more complex/customizable class, but that can be something other than Warlock. Expanding more on the Modify Spell spell that Wizards got (and preferably moving it to Sorcerers, but eh) could lead into a very interesting system of psuedo-homebrew and individuality.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I know this is probably just going to be ignored and/or shouted at, but can we all please try to discuss this without shouting or snide personal attacks?
NEVER!!
At least you weren’t ignored. Lol
If this advice were more followed, I believe this would be a much better world. How does getting upset at people ever really contribute to a conversation? Exceptions for things that are funny.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Isn't that Clerics? Relatively few abilities outside of spells, all class spells known, swap out usable spells every long rest if they make a bad choice. Worst case, "I do healy / buffy stuff" every turn.
I think some of your disconnect here may lie in how you're choosing to frame this. D&D's default assumption is a quasi-medieval, heroic fantasy world (source: DMG 38). That means the default is... not necessarily athleticism per se, but the characters who pursue the life of adventurer are those that on some level expect to be walking long distances on foot for a lot of their career - certainly at the outset - and getting blades, clubs, claws, fangs and arrows shoved in their faces at some point. Some degree of armor training is not out of the ordinary for such characters, and the ones who don't have that are the ones who have a really damn good reason not to have pursued it - whether that reason is scholarship (wizardry), innate magic (sorcery), or training their bodies to not need any (asceticism). And even for those characters who do next to nothing physically, the lowest their physical stats generally end up being for the most part is an 8, assuming standard array.
This is a long-winded way of saying that for those who choose to pursue warlock...ery? ...having armor training is not all that strange. Most characters in the world should be interested in armor, unless the nature of their profession gets in the way of it. If Bards, Clerics and Druids can find the time for it, why not them? And for Warlocks in particular, who are learning secret shortcuts to arcane power, some of those secrets would feasibly include "here are the cool simpler gestures that let you throw a fireball while wearing scale mail, shhhh."
Now, I wouldn't be against them dropping the medium armor for light armor + shields. Or even getting outright medium armor + shields like clerics do. But I think the current armor proficiencies aren't too outlandish for them either.
I personally feel like Cleric and Paladin already kind of fit the role of "Simple caster" Divine spells are typically pretty straight forward + the decent health and great armor makes them pretty new player friendly from my experience.
Okay one final suggestion for quick fix.
Mystic Arcanum goes back to being their own thing but they start at level 2 with a 1st level one and you get one at every level that full casters get new spell levels. 3,5,7, etc. You can pick any spell off the arcane list and can change one MA when you level up for another spell of the same level. We go back to pact magic but make it a long rest to recharge. Then at 3rd level you gain an ability combines to the draw power I suggested and the blood sacrifice I saw on someone else’s post into something new. We make it warlock cantrip since it’s an easy to explain mechanic.
Blood for Power
Casting time 1 minute
range self
components V,M (weapon or improvised weapon that deals slashing or piercing damage)
You expend one hit die in an attempt to gain additional magical power. You attempt to create a spell slot any level equal to or lower than your pact magic spell slots. Roll the Hit Die and if the roll meets or is higher than the spell slot you are attempting to make it coalesces and can be used to cast any spell you have prepared of that level or lower. You may only have one spell slot from this cantrip at one time. While that spell slot exist this cantrip is unavailable to you. Once you have expended it the spell slot vanishes and you may use this cantrip again. The spell slot is also lost when you finish a long rest.
Starting at 5th level in warlock if you roll and fail to create your spell slot you may expend a second hit die, roll it and add it to the result. At 11th if you rolled 2 hit dice and the combined result still failed you may roll a third hit die and add it to the result. At 17th if you expended three hit dice and the result still failed you may expend a fourth hit die and you create the spell slot. You may only create spell slots 2x your proficiency bonus per long rest.
If you have expended a pact magic slot you may use this cantrip to instead replenish it. Treat it as creating a spell slot of the same level of your pact magic slot except replenishing it doesn’t count against the number of times you can create spell slots per long rest.
This build gives you more uses of magic with Mystic Arcanums from 1st -9th level spells once a day and pact magic that doesn’t require a short rest to recharge. The ability to create new spell slots of lower levels if you want. It balances this by capping the number of new slots to 2x pb and costing a hit die with a chance of failure that increases as you gain more powerful the slot you wish to create which is capped at 5 by your pact magic slots. I can imagine someone being really lucky with the rolls at lvl 20 having 24 5th level pact magic spell slots in one day if they only use the cantrip to recharge. In game I can’t imagine it mattering, but on paper it’s broken.
So back to warlock with this. A simple Analysis of each of the pacts.
Starting with Pact of the tome. This one is probably the most functional of all the pacts. It gives 2 ritual spells and 2 cantrips before it just gave 3 cantrips and that was it, you needed to take book of ancient secrets to get ritual spells. In addition, you can recast it in one hour and pick 2 other cantrips and ritual spells. Before changing the cantrips could only happen on level up and you had to find scrolls of ritual spells and copy them into the book to get more ritual spells. In addition at level 5 you get an improved agonizing blast for free. This means that Pact of the Tome warlocks transition well into eldritch blasters with pairings of things like eldritch spear, and repelling blast. Not surprisingly on its own this is just under martials using a bow. A fighter with a long bow can get push on its attack but will also have the archery fighting style for an extra +2 to attack, and both the fighter and the lock will probably pick up spell sniper/ Sharpshooter which are basically the same in this edition.
Pact of the Blade. This one is a little overblown on how good it is. You can only use non-heavy weapons, and you only have proficiency with the pact weapon itself. Yes the build means you only have to worry about charisma but all the damage feats for weapons are tied to strength and dexterity. So first the best weapons are all versatile d10 weapons and second the only feat that keeps you SAD that actually helps you as a melee is Warcaster. Finally, the only feats that actually work with the versatile weapons are the new Weapon Mastery feat, The charger feat, the duel wielder feat (Using a hand-axe since it is a light weapon, but this would mean using your strength or dagger since it is finesse light and would make you MAD anyway). The only invocation to help blade is Life Drinker at 9.
Pact of the Chain, I think this has been said to death. The health is too low, the stats are too low, there isn't anything differentiating the types besides damage until level 9. It still has all the invocation taxes it did.
This has been a pseudo deep dive about New Warlock pacts.
I haven't seen the chain pact in play. But really on paper it seems the worst option of the three. Also I don't understand what they want to do with that design. It looks like the designer wants you to use your familiar in combat, but it's too weak for that. I honestly wish they had designed it just to explore, and give it utility options. Or if you're doing it for combat, fine, but design it in a way that it can fill that role. Or maybe they should give you options to customize your familiar in one direction or another.
In any case, it should be seen in play. Sometimes there are features that only make sense when playing.
This is kind of what i meant by its stats are too low. You get to add your PB to EVERYTHING which is great, but with the highest stat on the Familiar being a 14 the skill checks it is going to do aren't going to be that great + its limits on invisibility duration + the lack of any other feature (like Imp and quasit shape shifting or the sprites heart sense ability) all really hurt it. Voice is decent but was never mandatory. That used to be a big benefit of Chain as well. The tome and the blades "invocation taxes" were more felt if you didn't take them, but with chain you could take none of their "tax" except agonizing blast and still have a super powered familiar. Now it is barely better than the normal familiar which everyone has access to, even the blade lock.