I don't think I've ever gotten a single short rest in any game I've ever played as a warlock in. Not once. I know I haven't gotten a single short rest in my current warlock's game, and she's gone from third level to the verge of sixth since the game started. Either the party has time to Rest Longly, or the party needs to exert its utmost to succeed against pressing odds and short rests are out of the question. There is no in between. Either we have time and space for a long rest or we're In The Shit. No exceptions.
I believe you that this is your experience, but it sounds so unsatisfying, both mechanically and narratively. Obviously no one here has data on how many short rests the typical group takes, but short rests are a significant mechanic, and if a game is working in a way that they're a "trap," my sense is that that game is broken. It feels unreasonable to ask D&D as a whole to bend to the needs of a table that is not playing the game as designed.
Again, all I can say is that it feels like there's a constant state of urgency/emergency in your game that's not been the norm for ours. Again, certainly there are urgent times, but (this is especially true at low levels) there are also a lot of times when good guys AND bad guys are catching their breaths, considering what the latest information or kerfuffle means for their plans, and so on. At low levels, especially, the "plot" so to speak of the campaign (if there is one, and if there's only just the one) is still cohering and being discovered, one piece at a time, by the players, so that sense of GO NOW MUST ACT NOW isn't there every moment of every game day.
It honestly sounds sort of exhausting and not fun to me, but if it works for y'all, then it works for you.
Again, you're taking this to odd extremes. As both player and DM, I've certainly been in situations where taking a short rest wasn't going to happen. But it's not the norm for every locale, every environment, or even every encounter. Are you playing a style of D&D that's akin to Mad Max: Fury Road where you literally can't stop to rest, anywhere or at any time?
Here's the thing. What nobody seems to get is that it's not about active, enemies-are-actively-chasing-you pressure. It's about the core world assumption - apparently unique to my table(s) - that every single hour you get to do something is also an hour the enemy gets to do something. Time is universally impartial - it gives its gifts to absolutely everyone and everything in equal measure. If the party decides to faff off for half a day every single day doing yoga while the opposition makes more effective use of their time? That's on the party, not on the DM for being a bad DM. Bad guys have objectives, and they will use the time they are given to pursue those objectives. If the party constantly decides to do nothing to interfere with that pursuit of Bad Guy objectives, how is it a DM problem when the bad guys pull ahead?
When the party is traveling from one location to another - say from the city to a dungeon entrance, if we can use some tropes of the game - are you saying that the way there is so stacked with hostiles encounters that there's never any chance for a short rest, ever? If I recall, you're someone who places a high value on roleplaying (which I'm in agreement with!) - but it sounds like you're used to playing in campaigns that are extremely combat-heavy and light on....everything else.
(Tone is hard to convey here but I'm asking sincerely, not sarcastically.)
As stated - roleplaying is why time is not a nonfactor in our games. The world doesn't wait for us - if we **** around doing yoga for twelve hours a day every day, the bad guys WILL get the jump on us and we'll have to play catch-up and probably lose. The assumption everybody else in this thread is making is that enemies will sit around doing dick-monkey jack squat nothing while the party faffs off for twelve hours a day short-resting after every single individual skill check, and that is so unrealistic and unfounded an assumption that it's never seriously come up in any game I've ever played. It's why short rests are a trap - every hour the PCs spend doing Nothing is an hour the enemy spends doing Something instead, and that is never a good equation for victory.
Again, your experiences with Pact Magic don't match mine at all. Sure, there have been times when I had to rely only on cantrips or my Pact Weapon, but to me, that's just part of the character - because I know I'll get spell slots back in a way that almost none of my other party members will (unless we're on the run in Avernus with the literal hordes of hell on our trail).
I don't think I've ever gotten a single short rest in any game I've ever played as a warlock in. Not once. I know I haven't gotten a single short rest in my current warlock's game, and she's gone from third level to the verge of sixth since the game started. Either the party has time to Rest Longly, or the party needs to exert its utmost to succeed against pressing odds and short rests are out of the question. There is no in between. Either we have time and space for a long rest or we're In The Shit. No exceptions.
Which should maybe explain something about why I'm so vehemently against retaining Pact Magic, ne?
So everyone in your universe is infinitely productive and every waking second are busting ass constantly. Like sure,the villains are doing things off screen I get that it happens in our games. But its an hour not a week. Villains eat lunch too.
Can Dispel Magic get rid of a Warlock's Pact benefit since they are now gain through casting a cantrip. What happens when they walk into an anti-magic field, does the pact vanish there too?
Requoting for amplification. This means a signature aspect of a warlock character can easily be taken away from them by any creature with access to dispel magic. This alone means they need to rethink changing Pact Magic into spells.
Can Dispel Magic get rid of a Warlock's Pact benefit since they are now gain through casting a cantrip. What happens when they walk into an anti-magic field, does the pact vanish there too?
Requoting for amplification. This means a signature aspect of a warlock character can easily be taken away from them by any creature with access to dispel magic. This alone means they need to rethink changing Pact Magic into spells.
Book of Shadows and Pact Familiar both have instantaneous duration, so they can't be dispelled. Pact Blade can be, but it's an action to cast again, so I don't see much of a problem with that one (though I wouldn't complain if it were a bonus action instead of an action).
Again, you're taking this to odd extremes. As both player and DM, I've certainly been in situations where taking a short rest wasn't going to happen. But it's not the norm for every locale, every environment, or even every encounter. Are you playing a style of D&D that's akin to Mad Max: Fury Road where you literally can't stop to rest, anywhere or at any time?
Here's the thing. What nobody seems to get is that it's not about active, enemies-are-actively-chasing-you pressure. It's about the core world assumption - apparently unique to my table(s) - that every single hour you get to do something is also an hour the enemy gets to do something. Time is universally impartial - it gives its gifts to absolutely everyone and everything in equal measure. If the party decides to faff off for half a day every single day doing yoga while the opposition makes more effective use of their time? That's on the party, not on the DM for being a bad DM. Bad guys have objectives, and they will use the time they are given to pursue those objectives. If the party constantly decides to do nothing to interfere with that pursuit of Bad Guy objectives, how is it a DM problem when the bad guys pull ahead?
When the party is traveling from one location to another - say from the city to a dungeon entrance, if we can use some tropes of the game - are you saying that the way there is so stacked with hostiles encounters that there's never any chance for a short rest, ever? If I recall, you're someone who places a high value on roleplaying (which I'm in agreement with!) - but it sounds like you're used to playing in campaigns that are extremely combat-heavy and light on....everything else.
(Tone is hard to convey here but I'm asking sincerely, not sarcastically.)
As stated - roleplaying is why time is not a nonfactor in our games. The world doesn't wait for us - if we **** around doing yoga for twelve hours a day every day, the bad guys WILL get the jump on us and we'll have to play catch-up and probably lose. The assumption everybody else in this thread is making is that enemies will sit around doing dick-monkey jack squat nothing while the party faffs off for twelve hours a day short-resting after every single individual skill check, and that is so unrealistic and unfounded an assumption that it's never seriously come up in any game I've ever played. It's why short rests are a trap - every hour the PCs spend doing Nothing is an hour the enemy spends doing Something instead, and that is never a good equation for victory.
Again, your experiences with Pact Magic don't match mine at all. Sure, there have been times when I had to rely only on cantrips or my Pact Weapon, but to me, that's just part of the character - because I know I'll get spell slots back in a way that almost none of my other party members will (unless we're on the run in Avernus with the literal hordes of hell on our trail).
I don't think I've ever gotten a single short rest in any game I've ever played as a warlock in. Not once. I know I haven't gotten a single short rest in my current warlock's game, and she's gone from third level to the verge of sixth since the game started. Either the party has time to Rest Longly, or the party needs to exert its utmost to succeed against pressing odds and short rests are out of the question. There is no in between. Either we have time and space for a long rest or we're In The Shit. No exceptions.
Which should maybe explain something about why I'm so vehemently against retaining Pact Magic, ne?
That would explain it in a world where there are infinite bad guys and they never need to rest, or there are so many behind the scenes that they work in shifts to ensure there is no point where the workers need to go for lunch or a mid morning break, take a trip to the WC, etc while making plans. Maybe that DM can just agree that both sides have biological needs that could create opportunities to rest. Everyone poops after all.
I love the new Warlock as well. My only complaint is that folks will likely feel pressured to blow all their invocations on Mystic Arcanum if they want to get back to near-parity with full-casters. I think for spell levels 1-5 each one should give two selections instead of one, letting you max out your Arcana quickly and have Invocations left over for the more flavorful stuff.
Turning the pact boons into cantrips that require 1 hour to cast is a really weird design choice, I do not understand why they did that? Like... does this mean a Bard could pick up Pact of the Blade with their Magical Secrets??? Can you get both Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Tome as your two cantrips with Magic Initiate?
No and no. They are Source spells. You can only cast them using the associated feature, even if you found some other way to learn them.
I love the new Warlock as well. My only complaint is that folks will likely feel pressured to blow all their invocations on Mystic Arcanum if they want to get back to near-parity with full-casters. I think for spell levels 1-5 each one should give two selections instead of one, letting you max out your Arcana quickly and have Invocations left over for the more flavorful stuff.
Turning the pact boons into cantrips that require 1 hour to cast is a really weird design choice, I do not understand why they did that? Like... does this mean a Bard could pick up Pact of the Blade with their Magical Secrets??? Can you get both Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Tome as your two cantrips with Magic Initiate?
No and no. They are Source spells. You can only cast them using the associated feature, even if you found some other way to learn them.
I agree with this sentiment pretty hard. The pacts gain their one free invocation of old, but you are still basically forced into agonizing blast invocation unless you are a blade lock and the way I see it you need one mystic arcanum at 5, two at 7, 3 at 11, 4 at 13 and 5 at 17.
but WITH THOSE starting at 9 your spell casting is better than it used to be. at 5 you are struggling, but not a lot, same with 7, but 9 is when you unlock 3rd level spells naturally. With a mystic arcanum for a 4th level spell and a 5th level spell, the patron spell boon you are pretty close at 9. You never reach full caster status, obviously, but it gets ok.
Can Dispel Magic get rid of a Warlock's Pact benefit since they are now gain through casting a cantrip. What happens when they walk into an anti-magic field, does the pact vanish there too?
Requoting for amplification. This means a signature aspect of a warlock character can easily be taken away from them by any creature with access to dispel magic. This alone means they need to rethink changing Pact Magic into spells.
Book and Shadows and Pact Familiar both have instantaneous duration, so they can't be dispelled. Pact Blade can be, but it's an action to cast again, so I don't see much of a problem with that one (though I wouldn't complain if it were a bonus action instead of an action).
The fact the Book of Shadows and Pact Familiar have an instantious duration means they can't be dispelled. They are perminant until you recast the spell, destroyed some other means or you die. Instanteous spells, like any damaging spell, can't be undone with a Dispel Magic.
You don't need a single Mystic Arcanum. Arcanums have always been an afterthought, going without them entirely won't be an issue. And if someone wants to focus heavily on Arcanums, that's their choice to make. I imagine I would never take more than one or two, if that. Always-on or at-will Invocations are generally going to be much stronger and always have been.
Again - this idea that the warlock needs to be the equal of a full casting progression class at the expense of everything else it does is not true. The class simply does not require it, if Invocations and Pact Boons are made powerful/useful enough. Frankly if they wanted to replace Pact Magic/Spellcasting entirely with double the Invocation count, I'd be down to see where that went, but this in-betweeny garbage Pact Magic thing needs to go. It just needs to.
I love the new Warlock as well. My only complaint is that folks will likely feel pressured to blow all their invocations on Mystic Arcanum if they want to get back to near-parity with full-casters. I think for spell levels 1-5 each one should give two selections instead of one, letting you max out your Arcana quickly and have Invocations left over for the more flavorful stuff.
Turning the pact boons into cantrips that require 1 hour to cast is a really weird design choice, I do not understand why they did that? Like... does this mean a Bard could pick up Pact of the Blade with their Magical Secrets??? Can you get both Pact of the Blade and Pact of the Tome as your two cantrips with Magic Initiate?
No and no. They are Source spells. You can only cast them using the associated feature, even if you found some other way to learn them.
Why are they spells then????? Is it because they want them to be counterspellable? to be suppressed by Antimagic fields? to be Dispelled when your ally casts Dispel Magic on you to try and save you from an enemy spell?
Turning class features into spells just creates confusion - like the new group of players trying to figure out if pact magic cantrips can be selected with Magic Initiate or a similar feat - or how they interact with various other things like Antimagic fields, counterspell, or dispel magic (not to mention various monster abilities that can mimic these). And it means I have to flip back and forth between the spell description pages and the class feature pages - which is a waste of my and everyone else's time.
If A is useable if and only if you have B, and if you have B you automatically have A, then A&B should be one thing and not two separate things.
I need to read it in detail and do a closer version-to-version comparison but...I kinda hate it.
One of the things I really hate is moving the Extra Attack from the Thirsting Blade invocation into the pact blade spell. This is terrible design; it costs the warlock a spell slot every day. And it's weird to decouple it from the Hexblade patron.
I also really hate the increased spell slots. Frankly, it's too many/not enough. They should've just tied spell slots to PB.
ETA 1: No more recovery of spells after a short rest. Hate it.
I agree. I saw the document drop and immediately went to warlock. When I read it I banged my phone against my copy of Storm King’s Thunder. Is ‘complete and absolute fury’ a spell in the playtest materials?
You don't need a single Mystic Arcanum. Arcanums have always been an afterthought, going without them entirely won't be an issue. And if someone wants to focus heavily on Arcanums, that's their choice to make. I imagine I would never take more than one or two, if that. Always-on or at-will Invocations are generally going to be much stronger and always have been.
Again - this idea that the warlock needs to be the equal of a full casting progression class at the expense of everything else it does is not true. The class simply does not require it, if Invocations and Pact Boons are made powerful/useful enough. Frankly if they wanted to replace Pact Magic/Spellcasting entirely with double the Invocation count, I'd be down to see where that went, but this in-betweeny garbage Pact Magic thing needs to go. It just needs to.
I feel like I can get most of the "always on invocations" and still get quite a few arcanums. At level 5 for example I could have arcanum fear for one cast of a fear spell and still have eldritch blast and repelling blast. at 7 I have 2 arcanums with fear and polymorph and still agonizing and repelling. at 9 I trade out my fear arcanum for a wall of force arcanum and get me a nice devil sight or one with shadows or something nice for myself. 11 get the usual arcanum for a 6th level mass suggestion and trade the 4th level one to something else like arcane eye or dimension door, 13 get another one for a nice 7th level Force Cage, 15 I can finally trade the fourth level out entirely for a nice maze spell and pick up witch sight, finally 9th get me my wish.
I think some of it is could be coming from older editions that did not have the short rest mechanic, I know in quite a few groups that were mixed new to dnd and players from older edtion that I ran games for never would take a short rest (unless I remind them that it was an option and even then sometime they didn't) .
Can Dispel Magic get rid of a Warlock's Pact benefit since they are now gain through casting a cantrip. What happens when they walk into an anti-magic field, does the pact vanish there too?
Requoting for amplification. This means a signature aspect of a warlock character can easily be taken away from them by any creature with access to dispel magic. This alone means they need to rethink changing Pact Magic into spells.
Book and Shadows and Pact Familiar both have instantaneous duration, so they can't be dispelled. Pact Blade can be, but it's an action to cast again, so I don't see much of a problem with that one (though I wouldn't complain if it were a bonus action instead of an action).
The fact the Book of Shadows and Pact Familiar have an instantious duration means they can't be dispelled. They are perminant until you recast the spell, destroyed some other means or you die. Instanteous spells, like any damaging spell, can't be undone with a Dispel Magic.
They could be counterspelled though
I get that in the vast majority of cases you're casting them to begin your adventuring day, like mage armor, and not in the middle of combat, but the fact that it's even possible to counterspell major class features is absurd
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You don't need a single Mystic Arcanum. Arcanums have always been an afterthought, going without them entirely won't be an issue. And if someone wants to focus heavily on Arcanums, that's their choice to make. I imagine I would never take more than one or two, if that. Always-on or at-will Invocations are generally going to be much stronger and always have been.
Well... there's a few I'd rather have than a 4th-level spell at 7 or a 5th-level spell at 9, but not many. But point taken.
Indeed, the Book and Familiar can't be dispelled (but the Blade can be - though since it's a cantrip, you can just whip it out again on your turn.)
That's assuming you haven't chosen a magic weapon as your pact weapon. What if your warlock is using a long sword that's a flame tongue? Right now, it's an hour for the warlock to make the existing magical weapon into the pact weapon.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I believe you that this is your experience, but it sounds so unsatisfying, both mechanically and narratively. Obviously no one here has data on how many short rests the typical group takes, but short rests are a significant mechanic, and if a game is working in a way that they're a "trap," my sense is that that game is broken. It feels unreasonable to ask D&D as a whole to bend to the needs of a table that is not playing the game as designed.
Appreciate the explanation/peek into your table.
Again, all I can say is that it feels like there's a constant state of urgency/emergency in your game that's not been the norm for ours. Again, certainly there are urgent times, but (this is especially true at low levels) there are also a lot of times when good guys AND bad guys are catching their breaths, considering what the latest information or kerfuffle means for their plans, and so on. At low levels, especially, the "plot" so to speak of the campaign (if there is one, and if there's only just the one) is still cohering and being discovered, one piece at a time, by the players, so that sense of GO NOW MUST ACT NOW isn't there every moment of every game day.
It honestly sounds sort of exhausting and not fun to me, but if it works for y'all, then it works for you.
So everyone in your universe is infinitely productive and every waking second are busting ass constantly. Like sure,the villains are doing things off screen I get that it happens in our games. But its an hour not a week. Villains eat lunch too.
Requoting for amplification. This means a signature aspect of a warlock character can easily be taken away from them by any creature with access to dispel magic. This alone means they need to rethink changing Pact Magic into spells.
Book of Shadows and Pact Familiar both have instantaneous duration, so they can't be dispelled. Pact Blade can be, but it's an action to cast again, so I don't see much of a problem with that one (though I wouldn't complain if it were a bonus action instead of an action).
Dispel magic works on the magical effects of a cast spell. This would most certainly dispel the book.
That would explain it in a world where there are infinite bad guys and they never need to rest, or there are so many behind the scenes that they work in shifts to ensure there is no point where the workers need to go for lunch or a mid morning break, take a trip to the WC, etc while making plans. Maybe that DM can just agree that both sides have biological needs that could create opportunities to rest. Everyone poops after all.
No and no. They are Source spells. You can only cast them using the associated feature, even if you found some other way to learn them.
Read in the magic system instantaneous duration, it specifies that they can not be dispelled.
I agree with this sentiment pretty hard. The pacts gain their one free invocation of old, but you are still basically forced into agonizing blast invocation unless you are a blade lock and the way I see it you need one mystic arcanum at 5, two at 7, 3 at 11, 4 at 13 and 5 at 17.
but WITH THOSE starting at 9 your spell casting is better than it used to be. at 5 you are struggling, but not a lot, same with 7, but 9 is when you unlock 3rd level spells naturally. With a mystic arcanum for a 4th level spell and a 5th level spell, the patron spell boon you are pretty close at 9. You never reach full caster status, obviously, but it gets ok.
The fact the Book of Shadows and Pact Familiar have an instantious duration means they can't be dispelled. They are perminant until you recast the spell, destroyed some other means or you die. Instanteous spells, like any damaging spell, can't be undone with a Dispel Magic.
I hate it because:
-patrons are third level
-it’s a half caster
-mystic arcanum costs an invocation
-pact boons are spells
-spell slots recharge on long rest
So WotC’s upgrade to a already weak class is: take away all the unique parts of the warlock and make it weaker?
You don't need a single Mystic Arcanum. Arcanums have always been an afterthought, going without them entirely won't be an issue. And if someone wants to focus heavily on Arcanums, that's their choice to make. I imagine I would never take more than one or two, if that. Always-on or at-will Invocations are generally going to be much stronger and always have been.
Again - this idea that the warlock needs to be the equal of a full casting progression class at the expense of everything else it does is not true. The class simply does not require it, if Invocations and Pact Boons are made powerful/useful enough. Frankly if they wanted to replace Pact Magic/Spellcasting entirely with double the Invocation count, I'd be down to see where that went, but this in-betweeny garbage Pact Magic thing needs to go. It just needs to.
Please do not contact or message me.
Why are they spells then????? Is it because they want them to be counterspellable? to be suppressed by Antimagic fields? to be Dispelled when your ally casts Dispel Magic on you to try and save you from an enemy spell?
Turning class features into spells just creates confusion - like the new group of players trying to figure out if pact magic cantrips can be selected with Magic Initiate or a similar feat - or how they interact with various other things like Antimagic fields, counterspell, or dispel magic (not to mention various monster abilities that can mimic these). And it means I have to flip back and forth between the spell description pages and the class feature pages - which is a waste of my and everyone else's time.
If A is useable if and only if you have B, and if you have B you automatically have A, then A&B should be one thing and not two separate things.
I agree. I saw the document drop and immediately went to warlock. When I read it I banged my phone against my copy of Storm King’s Thunder. Is ‘complete and absolute fury’ a spell in the playtest materials?
I feel like I can get most of the "always on invocations" and still get quite a few arcanums. At level 5 for example I could have arcanum fear for one cast of a fear spell and still have eldritch blast and repelling blast. at 7 I have 2 arcanums with fear and polymorph and still agonizing and repelling. at 9 I trade out my fear arcanum for a wall of force arcanum and get me a nice devil sight or one with shadows or something nice for myself. 11 get the usual arcanum for a 6th level mass suggestion and trade the 4th level one to something else like arcane eye or dimension door, 13 get another one for a nice 7th level Force Cage, 15 I can finally trade the fourth level out entirely for a nice maze spell and pick up witch sight, finally 9th get me my wish.
Also Hex master sucks.
I think some of it is could be coming from older editions that did not have the short rest mechanic, I know in quite a few groups that were mixed new to dnd and players from older edtion that I ran games for never would take a short rest (unless I remind them that it was an option and even then sometime they didn't) .
They could be counterspelled though
I get that in the vast majority of cases you're casting them to begin your adventuring day, like mage armor, and not in the middle of combat, but the fact that it's even possible to counterspell major class features is absurd
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Indeed, the Book and Familiar can't be dispelled (but the Blade can be - though since it's a cantrip, you can just whip it out again on your turn.)
Well... there's a few I'd rather have than a 4th-level spell at 7 or a 5th-level spell at 9, but not many. But point taken.
That's assuming you haven't chosen a magic weapon as your pact weapon. What if your warlock is using a long sword that's a flame tongue? Right now, it's an hour for the warlock to make the existing magical weapon into the pact weapon.