Honestly, the more I mess with this the more I make characters the more I think about it, the better I am feeling this is.
The opposite for me. It started off bad and keeps getting worse the more I mess with it.
How much are you leaning into mystic arcanum? what I am seeing is the way you look at spells is flipping as a warlock. Instead of thinking of getting as many tools for various situations you find yourself in it needs to be thought of as "what am I probably going to use every day" for your "highest level slots" and the utility stuff is all for lower slots. There are a lot of things that need work though. Several invocations are still bad, and patron spell lists NEED to have useful spells at every level because getting that free cast is needed to really help. Fiend is not looking good in that regard AT ALL.
Not super heavy but enough to get what I want. Even if it were as good which it isn't its still terrible since they tossed the one unique casting class.
Why are they casting hour-long spells in combat for you to counter? Your objections make no sense.
Try to keep up, I already addressed that
The fact that it's even possible is a joke. Core class features should not be counterspell-able, regardless of how unlikely it is to happen
So your argument is you don't have one and are just talking about something that will never happen because it is theoretically possible. This is like saying destroy/create water is OP because you can create water in someones lungs.
Core class features should not be counterspell-able, regardless of how unlikely it is to happen
And I can come up with scenarios in which it could happen, but that's not the point. It shouldn't be possible at all
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Why are they casting hour-long spells in combat for you to counter? Your objections make no sense.
Try to keep up, I already addressed that
The fact that it's even possible is a joke. Core class features should not be counterspell-able, regardless of how unlikely it is to happen
Look I agree they should be class features and not spells, but this is not why. You are going to cast pact of the tome once in your career, it is not going to get counterspelled.
Honestly, the more I mess with this the more I make characters the more I think about it, the better I am feeling this is.
The opposite for me. It started off bad and keeps getting worse the more I mess with it.
How much are you leaning into mystic arcanum? what I am seeing is the way you look at spells is flipping as a warlock. Instead of thinking of getting as many tools for various situations you find yourself in it needs to be thought of as "what am I probably going to use every day" for your "highest level slots" and the utility stuff is all for lower slots. There are a lot of things that need work though. Several invocations are still bad, and patron spell lists NEED to have useful spells at every level because getting that free cast is needed to really help. Fiend is not looking good in that regard AT ALL.
Not super heavy but enough to get what I want. Even if it were as good which it isn't its still terrible since they tossed the one unique casting class.
Ya I can definitely understand that. It is still one of the most customizable classes in the game due to invocations thankfully but I do agree it is a crying shame to see such a unique feature go. But I also know how table dependent that feature was. I had tables where it was great no problems and had fun. I had tables that were hostile to it, botht he player and the GM. I had tables where it was ok, but not great. This is going to be a lot more consistent experience, and I feel that is a good trade.
Like I would never want to play old lock at one of Yurei's tables it would be an AWEFUL experience, but I would definitely play this one at that table and I am sure I would have an absolute blast and get to play out both the power fantasy and the niche strangeness I like to do. I hate fighting with GM's and players that are hostile to short rests so not rolling the dice on that is fun.
This is small but why did they change repelling blast to include it must be horizontal movement. Outside of one feat which they could change you are not launching people into the air unless the terrain let you do so like they are standing on a outcrop while you are below them. And in those cases let them knock them into the air.
Why are they casting hour-long spells in combat for you to counter? Your objections make no sense.
Try to keep up, I already addressed that
The fact that it's even possible is a joke. Core class features should not be counterspell-able, regardless of how unlikely it is to happen
Look I agree they should be class features and not spells, but this is not why. You are going to cast pact of the tome once in your career, it is not going to get counterspelled.
I guarantee you, if this UA goes through, people will cast Book of Shadows way more than once, if for no other reason than you would be able to pick new spells every time you re-cast it
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Honestly, the more I mess with this the more I make characters the more I think about it, the better I am feeling this is.
The opposite for me. It started off bad and keeps getting worse the more I mess with it.
How much are you leaning into mystic arcanum? what I am seeing is the way you look at spells is flipping as a warlock. Instead of thinking of getting as many tools for various situations you find yourself in it needs to be thought of as "what am I probably going to use every day" for your "highest level slots" and the utility stuff is all for lower slots. There are a lot of things that need work though. Several invocations are still bad, and patron spell lists NEED to have useful spells at every level because getting that free cast is needed to really help. Fiend is not looking good in that regard AT ALL.
Not super heavy but enough to get what I want. Even if it were as good which it isn't its still terrible since they tossed the one unique casting class.
Ya I can definitely understand that. It is still one of the most customizable classes in the game due to invocations thankfully but I do agree it is a crying shame to see such a unique feature go. But I also know how table dependent that feature was. I had tables where it was great no problems and had fun. I had tables that were hostile to it, botht he player and the GM. I had tables where it was ok, but not great. This is going to be a lot more consistent experience, and I feel that is a good trade.
Like I would never want to play old lock at one of Yurei's tables it would be an AWEFUL experience, but I would definitely play this one at that table and I am sure I would have an absolute blast and get to play out both the power fantasy and the niche strangeness I like to do. I hate fighting with GM's and players that are hostile to short rests so not rolling the dice on that is fun.
I don't think I'd play this warlock at all under any circumstances at any table. I'd rather play a warlock at a table where short rests were literally banned than this warlock.
I get that in the vast majority of cases you're casting them to begin your adventuring day, like mage armor, and not in the middle of combat, but the fact that it's even possible to counterspell major class features is absurd
And let's not forget the fact that it takes an entire hour to recast. Short rest anyone? :)
Tome and Chain don't get cast somewhere an enemy can fidget with them, and Blade is an action to recast.
Anti-magic field. My party just encountered such last weekend and while it was frustrating, it did not completely shut down class abilities for the rest of the day (don't forget, you are not taking any short rests so no time available to spend on an hour spell...)
Honestly, the more I mess with this the more I make characters the more I think about it, the better I am feeling this is.
The opposite for me. It started off bad and keeps getting worse the more I mess with it.
How much are you leaning into mystic arcanum? what I am seeing is the way you look at spells is flipping as a warlock. Instead of thinking of getting as many tools for various situations you find yourself in it needs to be thought of as "what am I probably going to use every day" for your "highest level slots" and the utility stuff is all for lower slots. There are a lot of things that need work though. Several invocations are still bad, and patron spell lists NEED to have useful spells at every level because getting that free cast is needed to really help. Fiend is not looking good in that regard AT ALL.
Not super heavy but enough to get what I want. Even if it were as good which it isn't its still terrible since they tossed the one unique casting class.
Ya I can definitely understand that. It is still one of the most customizable classes in the game due to invocations thankfully but I do agree it is a crying shame to see such a unique feature go. But I also know how table dependent that feature was. I had tables where it was great no problems and had fun. I had tables that were hostile to it, botht he player and the GM. I had tables where it was ok, but not great. This is going to be a lot more consistent experience, and I feel that is a good trade.
Like I would never want to play old lock at one of Yurei's tables it would be an AWEFUL experience, but I would definitely play this one at that table and I am sure I would have an absolute blast and get to play out both the power fantasy and the niche strangeness I like to do. I hate fighting with GM's and players that are hostile to short rests so not rolling the dice on that is fun.
I don't think I'd play this warlock at all under any circumstances at any table. I'd rather play a warlock at a table where short rests were literally banned than this warlock.
Honestly, the more I mess with this the more I make characters the more I think about it, the better I am feeling this is.
The opposite for me. It started off bad and keeps getting worse the more I mess with it.
How much are you leaning into mystic arcanum? what I am seeing is the way you look at spells is flipping as a warlock. Instead of thinking of getting as many tools for various situations you find yourself in it needs to be thought of as "what am I probably going to use every day" for your "highest level slots" and the utility stuff is all for lower slots. There are a lot of things that need work though. Several invocations are still bad, and patron spell lists NEED to have useful spells at every level because getting that free cast is needed to really help. Fiend is not looking good in that regard AT ALL.
Not super heavy but enough to get what I want. Even if it were as good which it isn't its still terrible since they tossed the one unique casting class.
Ya I can definitely understand that. It is still one of the most customizable classes in the game due to invocations thankfully but I do agree it is a crying shame to see such a unique feature go. But I also know how table dependent that feature was. I had tables where it was great no problems and had fun. I had tables that were hostile to it, botht he player and the GM. I had tables where it was ok, but not great. This is going to be a lot more consistent experience, and I feel that is a good trade.
Like I would never want to play old lock at one of Yurei's tables it would be an AWEFUL experience, but I would definitely play this one at that table and I am sure I would have an absolute blast and get to play out both the power fantasy and the niche strangeness I like to do. I hate fighting with GM's and players that are hostile to short rests so not rolling the dice on that is fun.
I don't think I'd play this warlock at all under any circumstances at any table. I'd rather play a warlock at a table where short rests were literally banned than this warlock.
That seems very petty.
Not to me. They removed the most interesting spell casting system in the game for a half baked 1/2 caster. Its a spin on a ranger not a spin on a warlock. Why would i play something that would bore me to tears.
Core class features should not be counterspell-able, regardless of how unlikely it is to happen
And I can come up with scenarios in which it could happen, but that's not the point. It shouldn't be possible at all
You can counter a Paladin's steed using this logic. Been a core feature for a long time. You'll live, it's fine.
Oh, really? Which level does a paladin get that class feature at? I don't see it on the chart
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Honestly, the more I mess with this the more I make characters the more I think about it, the better I am feeling this is.
The opposite for me. It started off bad and keeps getting worse the more I mess with it.
How much are you leaning into mystic arcanum? what I am seeing is the way you look at spells is flipping as a warlock. Instead of thinking of getting as many tools for various situations you find yourself in it needs to be thought of as "what am I probably going to use every day" for your "highest level slots" and the utility stuff is all for lower slots. There are a lot of things that need work though. Several invocations are still bad, and patron spell lists NEED to have useful spells at every level because getting that free cast is needed to really help. Fiend is not looking good in that regard AT ALL.
Not super heavy but enough to get what I want. Even if it were as good which it isn't its still terrible since they tossed the one unique casting class.
Ya I can definitely understand that. It is still one of the most customizable classes in the game due to invocations thankfully but I do agree it is a crying shame to see such a unique feature go. But I also know how table dependent that feature was. I had tables where it was great no problems and had fun. I had tables that were hostile to it, botht he player and the GM. I had tables where it was ok, but not great. This is going to be a lot more consistent experience, and I feel that is a good trade.
Like I would never want to play old lock at one of Yurei's tables it would be an AWEFUL experience, but I would definitely play this one at that table and I am sure I would have an absolute blast and get to play out both the power fantasy and the niche strangeness I like to do. I hate fighting with GM's and players that are hostile to short rests so not rolling the dice on that is fun.
I don't think I'd play this warlock at all under any circumstances at any table. I'd rather play a warlock at a table where short rests were literally banned than this warlock.
That seems very petty.
Not to me. They removed the most interesting spell casting system in the game for a half baked 1/2 caster. Its a spin on a ranger not a spin on a warlock. Why would i play something that would bore me to tears.
So you find only 2 3rd level spells per day less boring than 1 3rd 3 2nd and 4 first level spells at 5th level. All while still technically having 3 invocations because you automatically get the pact boon invocation that is almost always picked?
Core class features should not be counterspell-able, regardless of how unlikely it is to happen
And I can come up with scenarios in which it could happen, but that's not the point. It shouldn't be possible at all
You can counter a Paladin's steed using this logic. Been a core feature for a long time. You'll live, it's fine.
Oh, really? Which level does a paladin get that class feature at? I don't see it on the chart
5th Level: Faithful Steed from the Paladin UA.
Ah, so it's not a "core feature" in the actual rules, whether for a "long time" or otherwise. Got it
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Why are they casting hour-long spells in combat for you to counter? Your objections make no sense.
Try to keep up, I already addressed that
The fact that it's even possible is a joke. Core class features should not be counterspell-able, regardless of how unlikely it is to happen
Look I agree they should be class features and not spells, but this is not why. You are going to cast pact of the tome once in your career, it is not going to get counterspelled.
I guarantee you, if this UA goes through, people will cast Book of Shadows way more than once, if for no other reason than you would be able to pick new spells every time you re-cast it
Oooh.. that's an interesting use of the new rules...
Thirded. I've played and DMed with time pressure as a very real thing. But all the time, every time? No.
Any series of encounters that involve intelligent enemies has some kind of pressure. You can not Assault the evil barons castle clear the gatehouse and 2 other rooms, and then expect you can just go take a rest in that place. If you retreat to rest outside the castle you should assume any progress you made has been lost and the whole castle is on nigh alert now.
In the campaigns I played this comes down to that if you have a situation safe enough to take a short rest you might as well take long rest. I only tend to see short rests happening if your ability to long rest has not reset.
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WotC can't possibly address every weird scenario you can devise. Nobody is casting those spells in combat.
Not super heavy but enough to get what I want. Even if it were as good which it isn't its still terrible since they tossed the one unique casting class.
Core class features should not be counterspell-able, regardless of how unlikely it is to happen
And I can come up with scenarios in which it could happen, but that's not the point. It shouldn't be possible at all
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Look I agree they should be class features and not spells, but this is not why. You are going to cast pact of the tome once in your career, it is not going to get counterspelled.
Ya I can definitely understand that. It is still one of the most customizable classes in the game due to invocations thankfully but I do agree it is a crying shame to see such a unique feature go. But I also know how table dependent that feature was. I had tables where it was great no problems and had fun. I had tables that were hostile to it, botht he player and the GM. I had tables where it was ok, but not great. This is going to be a lot more consistent experience, and I feel that is a good trade.
Like I would never want to play old lock at one of Yurei's tables it would be an AWEFUL experience, but I would definitely play this one at that table and I am sure I would have an absolute blast and get to play out both the power fantasy and the niche strangeness I like to do. I hate fighting with GM's and players that are hostile to short rests so not rolling the dice on that is fun.
This is small but why did they change repelling blast to include it must be horizontal movement. Outside of one feat which they could change you are not launching people into the air unless the terrain let you do so like they are standing on a outcrop while you are below them. And in those cases let them knock them into the air.
I guarantee you, if this UA goes through, people will cast Book of Shadows way more than once, if for no other reason than you would be able to pick new spells every time you re-cast it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don't think I'd play this warlock at all under any circumstances at any table. I'd rather play a warlock at a table where short rests were literally banned than this warlock.
And let's not forget the fact that it takes an entire hour to recast. Short rest anyone? :)
Anti-magic field. My party just encountered such last weekend and while it was frustrating, it did not completely shut down class abilities for the rest of the day (don't forget, you are not taking any short rests so no time available to spend on an hour spell...)
That seems very petty.
Not to me. They removed the most interesting spell casting system in the game for a half baked 1/2 caster. Its a spin on a ranger not a spin on a warlock. Why would i play something that would bore me to tears.
You can counter a Paladin's steed using this logic. Been a core feature for a long time. You'll live, it's fine.
Oh, really? Which level does a paladin get that class feature at? I don't see it on the chart
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So you find only 2 3rd level spells per day less boring than 1 3rd 3 2nd and 4 first level spells at 5th level. All while still technically having 3 invocations because you automatically get the pact boon invocation that is almost always picked?
5th Level: Faithful Steed from the Paladin UA.
Ah, so it's not a "core feature" in the actual rules, whether for a "long time" or otherwise. Got it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oooh.. that's an interesting use of the new rules...
You should try having combats that don't last an hour then
Any series of encounters that involve intelligent enemies has some kind of pressure.
You can not Assault the evil barons castle clear the gatehouse and 2 other rooms, and then expect you can just go take a rest in that place.
If you retreat to rest outside the castle you should assume any progress you made has been lost and the whole castle is on nigh alert now.
In the campaigns I played this comes down to that if you have a situation safe enough to take a short rest you might as well take long rest.
I only tend to see short rests happening if your ability to long rest has not reset.