Well, I was using "encounter" to include things outside of combat, but the whole discussion was about the restraints imposed by the fact that combat takes a certain amount of real time to get through, whether it's "small" or "big". The vague idea in my head was a system, or at least advice to DMs, that allows tables to process what would be small combat encounters in a more efficient way
For example, in the same way that a caster might use fly to bypass an environmental hazard, they might cast fireball to "bypass" a smaller combat. There's little incentive right now to use a third-level spell to one-shot a group of weaker enemies though, unless you're specifically playing a ticking-clock scenario. Might as well just let the martials get in some swings and shots instead, even if takes half an hour of real time and the outcome is never in any particular doubt
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This is assuming resources are only expended in combat. If the caster uses charm person to get past the guard, or invisibility, or fly or any number of other utility spells, they’re still spending resources.
Yes, but this runs into the other problem: in non-combat challenges, casters do not have a lower baseline power than martials, and thus no length of day will solve the balance issue.
Yup outside of experts spell casters are just as good as martials without spending resources. PF2e has a idea of skill levels I don't remember what the tiers are called but lets say apprentice, journeyman, master, grand master for d&D. If each tier lowered the DC of skill checks by 5 and martials had access to master, experts grand master and asters only apprentice outside a couple skills like arcana for wizards. Then at least martials would blow wizards out of the water without resources being spent, especially if it brought it the capabilities for fantastic skill based abilities. PF2e has a scare to death feat from intimidate once its at its highest level. Have skill feats that require high tiers in these skills. And then at least casters would have a lower baseline power outside their skill specialties.
That system sucks. Skills are skills and one class should be able to learn like any other while related, not simply for being martial or non-martial.
Instead that aberration, much better the system used in HARP, with class favored skills, easier to learn. Then we run into the multiclass problem, if you get 1 level only of another, now you add all its skills to your favored ones?
But that is a huge change that I doubt to be seen on this 5E "revision", maybe for the 6th edition.
That system sucks. Skills are skills and one class should be able to learn like any other while related, not simply for being martial or non-martial.
Instead that aberration, much better the system used in HARP, with class favored skills, easier to learn. Then we run into the multiclass problem, if you get 1 level only of another, now you add all its skills to your favored ones?
But that is a huge change that I doubt to be seen on this 5E "revision", maybe for the 6th edition.
Eh, the easy way to do that is by making all the non-casters into experts. And possibly changing how expertise works -- rather than 'double proficiency' it adds the proficiency bonus for your class levels.
That system sucks. Skills are skills and one class should be able to learn like any other while related, not simply for being martial or non-martial.
Instead that aberration, much better the system used in HARP, with class favored skills, easier to learn. Then we run into the multiclass problem, if you get 1 level only of another, now you add all its skills to your favored ones?
But that is a huge change that I doubt to be seen on this 5E "revision", maybe for the 6th edition.
If you say so, but the idea that focusing on magic leaves less time for practical skills is not a weird idea. If someone wants to be able to fly and cast knock to solve their problems maybe they should be worse at climbing, jumping and picking locks.
That system sucks. Skills are skills and one class should be able to learn like any other while related, not simply for being martial or non-martial.
Instead that aberration, much better the system used in HARP, with class favored skills, easier to learn. Then we run into the multiclass problem, if you get 1 level only of another, now you add all its skills to your favored ones?
But that is a huge change that I doubt to be seen on this 5E "revision", maybe for the 6th edition.
If you say so, but the idea that focusing on magic leaves less time for practical skills is not a weird idea. If someone wants to be able to fly and cast knock to solve their problems maybe they should be worse at climbing, jumping and picking locks.
They get nerfed? Honestly, bards would be fine without expertise.
Or less magic. Or some lesser combination of the two. One of the best casters and one of the best skill users, with extras thrown in seems a bit over the top for a class model. Honestly not sure where the whole full caster concept started with them, but it never seem to fit their concept imo. Jack of all trades is fine but full caster is sort of a master of at least one.
They get nerfed? Honestly, bards would be fine without expertise.
They already got nerfed, considering how many useful and thematically appropriate spells they lost. Because apparently asking people to reference maybe three additional pages in a glossary is too much hardship.
They get nerfed? Honestly, bards would be fine without expertise.
Or less magic. Or some lesser combination of the two. One of the best casters and one of the best skill users, with extras thrown in seems a bit over the top for a class model. Honestly not sure where the whole full caster concept started with them, but it never seem to fit their concept imo. Jack of all trades is fine but full caster is sort of a master of at least one.
The point was they were magical generalists with a bit of skill stuff, just like how Rangers have general range in martial options with a few skill things, whereas Rogues doubled up on skill stuff with faster Expertise progression, Reliable Talent, an additional Feat, and various subclass features that utilized skills or gave additional proficiencies.
They already got nerfed, considering how many useful and thematically appropriate spells they lost. Because apparently asking people to reference maybe three additional pages in a glossary is too much hardship.
Honestly, bard should be a half-caster. The corollary to 'jack of all trades' is 'master of none'.
I'm not sure I'd call the bards hits a nerf as they also gained spells, and which are better is not a easy choice. But switching off of known even with the restricted method imo is a buff, so even if their list is a nerf I see that as a wash at worst, and maybe a slight buff. They had thematic hits to their spell lists sure, which is why I don't like this unified list system. Even in cases where the list is more powerful, its just a lot more boring. Jack of all trades took a small hit since it no longer applies to initiative but that isn't big. Bardic inspiration having to wait until 7 for it to switch to a short recharge system hurts, but it acting as a reaction and including healing now is a buff. Lore bard got nerfed, sure. So imo bards are about where they were power level wise in 5e, i just don't find them as evocative without a custom spell list.
Forgive me if I find the likes of Jump, Darkvision, Rope Trick, Phantom Steed, etc. to be underwhelming returns for things like Heroism, Heat Metal, Bestow Curse, and Speak with Dead. A good half of what they got are the kinds of spells people rarely bother to take, and they lost a lot of thematically on point utility. Plus I'm not sure I'd bank on them staying list prep casters, and it's hardly a worthwhile trade-off if they're only prepping off of half the list.
They already got nerfed, considering how many useful and thematically appropriate spells they lost. Because apparently asking people to reference maybe three additional pages in a glossary is too much hardship.
Honestly, bard should be a half-caster. The corollary to 'jack of all trades' is 'master of none'.
Right, because it's not bad enough Warlocks are being treated like garbage, they should double up and give Bards the same treatment. What's the other half? "Expertise" does not comprise a functional other half to sucking at magic.
Forgive me if I find the likes of Jump, Darkvision, Rope Trick, Phantom Steed, etc. to be underwhelming returns for things like Heroism, Heat Metal, Bestow Curse, and Speak with Dead. A good half of what they got are the kinds of spells people rarely bother to take, and they lost a lot of thematically on point utility. Plus I'm not sure I'd bank on them staying list prep casters, and it's hardly a worthwhile trade-off if they're only prepping off of half the list.
Hey, you can diss the likes of jump and darkvision all you like. In fact, I implore you to say every bad thing you can think of when it comes to phantom steed. But don't you dare lump rope trick in there. Once you realize how handy an extradimensional space can be, you'll never want to go back to bestow curse.
But really, the loss of thematic spells is a shame. A system that I either saw or came up with myself would be to let every bard pick two or three schools of spells, and then let them prepare spells of that school from any list.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Forgive me if I find the likes of Jump, Darkvision, Rope Trick, Phantom Steed, etc. to be underwhelming returns for things like Heroism, Heat Metal, Bestow Curse, and Speak with Dead. A good half of what they got are the kinds of spells people rarely bother to take, and they lost a lot of thematically on point utility. Plus I'm not sure I'd bank on them staying list prep casters, and it's hardly a worthwhile trade-off if they're only prepping off of half the list.
Yeah a 100' of movement sucks, especially as a ritual.
Forgive me if I find the likes of Jump, Darkvision, Rope Trick, Phantom Steed, etc. to be underwhelming returns for things like Heroism, Heat Metal, Bestow Curse, and Speak with Dead. A good half of what they got are the kinds of spells people rarely bother to take, and they lost a lot of thematically on point utility. Plus I'm not sure I'd bank on them staying list prep casters, and it's hardly a worthwhile trade-off if they're only prepping off of half the list.
Yeah a 100' of movement sucks, especially as a ritual.
What, Phantom Steed? I'd rather just buy a real horse than waste a known/prep slot on it. Besides, unless the whole party has one, its super fast speed is rarely going to come up.
Forgive me if I find the likes of Jump, Darkvision, Rope Trick, Phantom Steed, etc. to be underwhelming returns for things like Heroism, Heat Metal, Bestow Curse, and Speak with Dead. A good half of what they got are the kinds of spells people rarely bother to take, and they lost a lot of thematically on point utility. Plus I'm not sure I'd bank on them staying list prep casters, and it's hardly a worthwhile trade-off if they're only prepping off of half the list.
Yeah a 100' of movement sucks, especially as a ritual.
It only lasts an hour, so either you're wasting over a sixth of your time just casting it, or you're burning through 3rd level spell slots. Anyways, the fairly marginal extra speed is rarely useful in practice, except in combat (which the steed cannot last more than 2 seconds in). If you really want that, just get a normal-ass horse and prepare the vastly more versatile longstrider.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It only lasts an hour, so either you're wasting over a sixth of your time just casting it, or you're burning through 3rd level spell slots. Anyways, the fairly marginal extra speed is rarely useful in practice, except in combat (which the steed cannot last more than 2 seconds in). If you really want that, just get a normal-ass horse and prepare the vastly more versatile longstrider.
It's quite a lot faster for overland travel; up to 80 miles per day, though if you're casting ritually it's more likely 70. In practice most games don't really care about overland travel speed, though.
That system sucks. Skills are skills and one class should be able to learn like any other while related, not simply for being martial or non-martial.
Instead that aberration, much better the system used in HARP, with class favored skills, easier to learn. Then we run into the multiclass problem, if you get 1 level only of another, now you add all its skills to your favored ones?
But that is a huge change that I doubt to be seen on this 5E "revision", maybe for the 6th edition.
If you say so, but the idea that focusing on magic leaves less time for practical skills is not a weird idea. If someone wants to be able to fly and cast knock to solve their problems maybe they should be worse at climbing, jumping and picking locks.
They used time to learn to use armor and many weapons (all martial category). And they continue learning getting multi-attack and other related features.
Again, skills are skills, and martial or non-martial is not a way to set how are learnt. We can end at the stupid point which a fighter is more skilled (without the corresponding sacrifice, only by class) in lore skills than a wizard just because "hey I am martial".
Well, I was using "encounter" to include things outside of combat, but the whole discussion was about the restraints imposed by the fact that combat takes a certain amount of real time to get through, whether it's "small" or "big". The vague idea in my head was a system, or at least advice to DMs, that allows tables to process what would be small combat encounters in a more efficient way
For example, in the same way that a caster might use fly to bypass an environmental hazard, they might cast fireball to "bypass" a smaller combat. There's little incentive right now to use a third-level spell to one-shot a group of weaker enemies though, unless you're specifically playing a ticking-clock scenario. Might as well just let the martials get in some swings and shots instead, even if takes half an hour of real time and the outcome is never in any particular doubt
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yup outside of experts spell casters are just as good as martials without spending resources. PF2e has a idea of skill levels I don't remember what the tiers are called but lets say apprentice, journeyman, master, grand master for d&D. If each tier lowered the DC of skill checks by 5 and martials had access to master, experts grand master and asters only apprentice outside a couple skills like arcana for wizards. Then at least martials would blow wizards out of the water without resources being spent, especially if it brought it the capabilities for fantastic skill based abilities. PF2e has a scare to death feat from intimidate once its at its highest level. Have skill feats that require high tiers in these skills. And then at least casters would have a lower baseline power outside their skill specialties.
That system sucks. Skills are skills and one class should be able to learn like any other while related, not simply for being martial or non-martial.
Instead that aberration, much better the system used in HARP, with class favored skills, easier to learn. Then we run into the multiclass problem, if you get 1 level only of another, now you add all its skills to your favored ones?
But that is a huge change that I doubt to be seen on this 5E "revision", maybe for the 6th edition.
Eh, the easy way to do that is by making all the non-casters into experts. And possibly changing how expertise works -- rather than 'double proficiency' it adds the proficiency bonus for your class levels.
If you say so, but the idea that focusing on magic leaves less time for practical skills is not a weird idea. If someone wants to be able to fly and cast knock to solve their problems maybe they should be worse at climbing, jumping and picking locks.
So what happens to bards?
They get nerfed? Honestly, bards would be fine without expertise.
Or less magic. Or some lesser combination of the two. One of the best casters and one of the best skill users, with extras thrown in seems a bit over the top for a class model. Honestly not sure where the whole full caster concept started with them, but it never seem to fit their concept imo. Jack of all trades is fine but full caster is sort of a master of at least one.
They already got nerfed, considering how many useful and thematically appropriate spells they lost. Because apparently asking people to reference maybe three additional pages in a glossary is too much hardship.
The point was they were magical generalists with a bit of skill stuff, just like how Rangers have general range in martial options with a few skill things, whereas Rogues doubled up on skill stuff with faster Expertise progression, Reliable Talent, an additional Feat, and various subclass features that utilized skills or gave additional proficiencies.
Honestly, bard should be a half-caster. The corollary to 'jack of all trades' is 'master of none'.
I'm not sure I'd call the bards hits a nerf as they also gained spells, and which are better is not a easy choice. But switching off of known even with the restricted method imo is a buff, so even if their list is a nerf I see that as a wash at worst, and maybe a slight buff. They had thematic hits to their spell lists sure, which is why I don't like this unified list system. Even in cases where the list is more powerful, its just a lot more boring. Jack of all trades took a small hit since it no longer applies to initiative but that isn't big. Bardic inspiration having to wait until 7 for it to switch to a short recharge system hurts, but it acting as a reaction and including healing now is a buff. Lore bard got nerfed, sure. So imo bards are about where they were power level wise in 5e, i just don't find them as evocative without a custom spell list.
Forgive me if I find the likes of Jump, Darkvision, Rope Trick, Phantom Steed, etc. to be underwhelming returns for things like Heroism, Heat Metal, Bestow Curse, and Speak with Dead. A good half of what they got are the kinds of spells people rarely bother to take, and they lost a lot of thematically on point utility. Plus I'm not sure I'd bank on them staying list prep casters, and it's hardly a worthwhile trade-off if they're only prepping off of half the list.
Right, because it's not bad enough Warlocks are being treated like garbage, they should double up and give Bards the same treatment. What's the other half? "Expertise" does not comprise a functional other half to sucking at magic.
Hey, you can diss the likes of jump and darkvision all you like. In fact, I implore you to say every bad thing you can think of when it comes to phantom steed. But don't you dare lump rope trick in there. Once you realize how handy an extradimensional space can be, you'll never want to go back to bestow curse.
But really, the loss of thematic spells is a shame. A system that I either saw or came up with myself would be to let every bard pick two or three schools of spells, and then let them prepare spells of that school from any list.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Yeah a 100' of movement sucks, especially as a ritual.
What, Phantom Steed? I'd rather just buy a real horse than waste a known/prep slot on it. Besides, unless the whole party has one, its super fast speed is rarely going to come up.
It only lasts an hour, so either you're wasting over a sixth of your time just casting it, or you're burning through 3rd level spell slots. Anyways, the fairly marginal extra speed is rarely useful in practice, except in combat (which the steed cannot last more than 2 seconds in). If you really want that, just get a normal-ass horse and prepare the vastly more versatile longstrider.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It's quite a lot faster for overland travel; up to 80 miles per day, though if you're casting ritually it's more likely 70. In practice most games don't really care about overland travel speed, though.
They used time to learn to use armor and many weapons (all martial category). And they continue learning getting multi-attack and other related features.
Again, skills are skills, and martial or non-martial is not a way to set how are learnt. We can end at the stupid point which a fighter is more skilled (without the corresponding sacrifice, only by class) in lore skills than a wizard just because "hey I am martial".