If the party starts a climb right after a long rest, and to avoid a fall the fighter uses an action surge to save the day.
Why would the fighter need to use action surge out of combat? That doesn't even make any sense
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The core problem is that, when they copied the short rest mechanic from 4th edition, they didn't copy the rest of the logic that surrounded it (4e was a flawed system, but there was a definite logic to the decisions it made).
In 4e, buffs didn't last beyond the encounter they were cast in, unless they were rituals that cost money, and healing required you expend a daily resource (equivalent to making all healing abilities in 5e just let the target spend hit dice). This meant that chaining short rests was completely pointless.
Once you get buffs that last for more than the duration of a short rest, or healing powers that aren't self-limited, you've created an incentive to chain short rests.
The core problem is that, when they copied the short rest mechanic from 4th edition, they didn't copy the rest of the logic that surrounded it (4e was a flawed system, but there was a definite logic to the decisions it made).
In 4e, buffs didn't last beyond the encounter they were cast in, unless they were rituals that cost money, and healing required you expend a daily resource (equivalent to making all healing abilities in 5e just let the target spend hit dice). This meant that chaining short rests was completely pointless.
Once you get buffs that last for more than the duration of a short rest, or healing powers that aren't self-limited, you've created an incentive to chain short rests.
Mostly agree, I just think the design is you are supposed to do this. Most buffs don't last longer than a short rest, darkvision, hex, hunters mark are some of the few. Hex is the clearest example imo as with pact magic it auto scales well past long rest. The effect of the spell is pretty minor and will usually be dropped for a better concentration spell at a fight. They only have 2 spells, so without this they have a minor effect that drops frequently in the first fight for a better spell after which they have no spells. They have invocations based around this one spell so its clear they intended you to take it. While it never hit public play test as far as I know it is so obvious I doubt it was missed.The incentive they created was intentional. I also think it is good for the game. If someone does not like this style of play there are 7 long rest spell caster classes to use, all of which can be flavored into a warlock theme by the player. But for the people who do like it, they at least have A option in both martial and casting classes.
If someone does not like this style of play there are 7 long rest spell caster classes to use
No, you don't get to claim your way is the only way to play the 5e warlock, sorry
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The core problem is that, when they copied the short rest mechanic from 4th edition, they didn't copy the rest of the logic that surrounded it (4e was a flawed system, but there was a definite logic to the decisions it made).
Once you get buffs that last for more than the duration of a short rest, or healing powers that aren't self-limited, you've created an incentive to chain short rests.
Sure, but they also added a counter incentive: it takes an hour of in-universe time. In 4e, it was 5 minutes, which is a good deal easier to squeeze in: It's not uncommon for someone to spend longer than that simply searching a room. But for 5e they decided to increase it to an hour.
Now, the natural conclusion here, I don't actually agree with. It goes like this: If you have time to chain together 1-hour rests, or otherwise take more of them than I personally think you should in a day, then your DM is doing something wrong. In other words, the DM is supposed to instinctively know, without being instructed, when they should pressure your party and when they shouldn't, and because they can do this, there's actually zero problems in the design, there's only problems in the DM's brain, or possibly their soul.
Here's what I actually think. Random encounter tables need to have a second step beyond "what type of thing do you encounter?" And that step should be, "in what context do you encounter it?" (They should also be way more likely to trigger something. Cut out the step where you roll to see if there even is a random encounter. Or at least increase the odds.)
DMs are reluctant to roll random encounters during rests because it frankly just means you're forcing the party into a fight, and they're already down some resources they're trying to get back for future fights. It feels mean and pointless. But random encounters don't need to be fights. There's a lot of good advice for this out there, I won't retread it now. But anyway, if the tables were set up this way by default, then you could roll EVERY TIME the party rests, and you wouldn't be a cruel villain ruining their day, you'd just be giving them the appropriate counter-pressure. Sometimes it's a fight still, but sometimes it isn't. Sometimes the party gets to choose whether it is.
Or not. Because once again, we're not fixing how people play, we're fixing how the numbers work out as a result of how people play. Put short rests back at 5 minutes and limit the number a party can take. Easy.
The core problem is that, when they copied the short rest mechanic from 4th edition, they didn't copy the rest of the logic that surrounded it (4e was a flawed system, but there was a definite logic to the decisions it made).
In 4e, buffs didn't last beyond the encounter they were cast in, unless they were rituals that cost money, and healing required you expend a daily resource (equivalent to making all healing abilities in 5e just let the target spend hit dice). This meant that chaining short rests was completely pointless.
Once you get buffs that last for more than the duration of a short rest, or healing powers that aren't self-limited, you've created an incentive to chain short rests.
Mostly agree, I just think the design is you are supposed to do this. Most buffs don't last longer than a short rest, darkvision, hex, hunters mark are some of the few. Hex is the clearest example imo as with pact magic it auto scales well past long rest. The effect of the spell is pretty minor and will usually be dropped for a better concentration spell at a fight. They only have 2 spells, so without this they have a minor effect that drops frequently in the first fight for a better spell after which they have no spells. They have invocations based around this one spell so its clear they intended you to take it. While it never hit public play test as far as I know it is so obvious I doubt it was missed.The incentive they created was intentional. I also think it is good for the game. If someone does not like this style of play there are 7 long rest spell caster classes to use, all of which can be flavored into a warlock theme by the player. But for the people who do like it, they at least have A option in both martial and casting classes.
This concept of related design logic really feels off in one(5er). The abilities/features/etc read well isolated from the rest but put together into a coherent class..... parts of gameplay, story, and progression feel off.
I didn't think 5e was bad for having an OK logic system under the rock,paper, scissors concept. Where each class has things that are easy or hard depending on senario. Then fun results from experiencing mixture of such results via good dm/player adventure design or random tables.
Sure, but they also added a counter incentive: it takes an hour of in-universe time. In 4e, it was 5 minutes, which is a good deal easier to squeeze in: It's not uncommon for someone to spend longer than that simply searching a room. But for 5e they decided to increase it to an hour.
Sure, but making in-game time progression a limiting factor doesn't actually work very well. This is a problem with long rests as well as short rests, which is what leads to the 'five minute workday'. You'd probably get better gameplay by linking short and long rests to plot progression (you can take a short rest once per minor waypoint, a long rest once per major), but that's a pretty explicitly gamist design.
Sure, but they also added a counter incentive: it takes an hour of in-universe time. In 4e, it was 5 minutes, which is a good deal easier to squeeze in: It's not uncommon for someone to spend longer than that simply searching a room. But for 5e they decided to increase it to an hour.
Sure, but making in-game time progression a limiting factor doesn't actually work very well. This is a problem with long rests as well as short rests, which is what leads to the 'five minute workday'. You'd probably get better gameplay by linking short and long rests to plot progression (you can take a short rest once per minor waypoint, a long rest once per major), but that's a pretty explicitly gamist design.
Is it really that much of an issue? The DM can and should just say "it's 8 am in the morning, you aren't tired so cannot take a long rest." The rules actually put limits on the number of long rests per 24 hours of in-game time. If the party insists on trying to sit in a single room of a dungeon for 12+ hours they can easily have some monsters attack the party. The main problem with 5e design is long-distance travel which honestly should just be a montage if the DM hasn't got plot-related content planned.
The argument could be made with illusionary spells, that they have a negative effect and a lot "effect" creatures actively looking at them, but those are illusion to begin with, overall, no other classes but Warlock and Ranger have core spells like Hex and Hunter's Mark to begin with, spells that without, the class wouldn't even function. So they do need care in how these spells are handled and implemented. The design of Hunter's Mark and Hex is definitely not up to par for something intended to be an integral part of the class design.
Except that isn't at all true? You can have a ranger that functions perfectly fine from level 5+ without using Hunter's Mark - I've seen them played! Same goes for Warlock and Hex, I've seen at least a half dozen blade-locks that never use Hex. Hunter's Mark and Hex have NEVER been the most powerful options for these classes, they are just the easy options that don't require any thinking or strategy. So if you're playing a Warlock or a Ranger and aren't sure what to do in combat using Hex+ EB or Hunter's Mark + longbow is a perfectly fine acceptable option. Optimal? - no, Effective? - yes. They are your standard reliable choices like Spiritual Weapon for clerics, Magic Missile for wizards, or Vicious Mockery for bards.
But it is true, they are designed as such. It's more so the case for Warlock but let's look at warlock spells as per 5E first
The only warlock spell that does more damage than Hex + Eldritch Blast is Hellish Rebuke (2d10 > 1d10+1d6), which falls behind at level 2 with agonizing blast, to a point where it basically keep Hex+Eldritch blast beating out upcasting 1st level spells to 2nd level at level 3/4. Obviously given Hellish Rebuke's trigger, a bit dangerous to use at 1st or 2nd level and it's not reliable.
2nd level spells, cloud of daggers can potentially do more damage if you get it in the right choke point, but it's concentration, so you can't have it and hex. Hex is 3.5 average damage per hit, Cloud of Daggers is 10 average damage, you don't cast Eldritch Blast on the turn it's used and it can also become effectively useless since it's not exactly a subtle effect so most creatures would generally avoid crossing it (thus the choke point requirement), situational but it can be be better. Shatter can do more damage for a single round, but for sustained damage over a combat, Hex is obviously winning. Shadow Blade might be competitive, if you could use Charisma, but as it requires either Strength or Dexterity... it doesn't work well for Warlock.
So 3rd level, well Eldritch Blast now has 2 rays... so (1d10+1d6+MOD)*2, probably a Charisma Modifier of +4 at this point, Armour of Agathys is now getting somewhat viable, Hypnotic Pattern can be powerful however you're not going to recast it within the same fight usually, it'll be replaced by hex or it'll replace hex as necessary. Hunger of Hadar can potentially be potent but has the same issue as Cloud of Daggers, most creatures aren't going to willingly enter the area, but unlike Cloud of Daggers, you can't attack or spell cast through it. Now for Hexblade+Pact of the Blade Warlock, there is Spirit Shroud, which does out-do Hex, quiet well, but every other warlock build, nothing is out-right beating Hex, certainly not in direct damage over the course of a combat but Hypnotic Pattern can certainly be useable over it in the right situations. Summon Fey might be a usable one, but it came from Tasha's which is relatively recent, overall, it loses some power because it takes an action, which is 2 less rays of Eldritch Blast, in terms of damage it'll be slightly beating Hex but as it cost you damage initially, the damage it adds is only really going to bring it up to par by around round 5~7.
At 4th level, finally get Sickening Radiance, the first spell all warlocks can use that really can beat out Hex... that's level 7. It's certainly not a spell you can use in every situation tho, so Hex is not gone yet. at 5th level, there is a few spells for consideration, Synaptic Shock, Negative Energy Flood, Hold Monster... but even with all of these, you'd still want Hex to be prepared.
Yes Hex is a "lazy" spell that many Warlocks use without considering alternatives but there are reasons for it, other than Spirit Shroud, no other spell actually replaces it's utility and if you're not a hexblade using pact of the blade, you generally do not want to be within 10 foot of hostile creatures to begin with. I am not saying Warlocks shouldn't consider alternatives but it really is a reliable spell worth keeping prepared, unless you're one specific build which everybody knows is OP'ed using a subclass that was not a part of the original warlock design but a quick fix to pact of the blade being terribly underwhelming in initial release.
Also going to say, who said killing a critter is indiscriminate. Breakfast is a thing and if we are taking a short rest immediately in the morning what do you think you are doing during the short rest? Why wouldn't the warlock kill and cook a creature for breakfast to start the day off right.
Yeah, not sure I wanna eat anything that got cursed and killed by necrotic damage...
EDIT: Also not sure why you're short resting immediately after long resting
To get your spells back? Like if you use your spells and end a fight with no one getting injured you would still want to take a short rest.
makes sense to me. university wasn't so long ago for me that i've forgotten how many calories a study session can snarffle up. thinking isn't free. ...and now my next warlock will definitely be carrying around some candies and trail mix to make a point of recharging directly after battles.
Sure, but they also added a counter incentive: it takes an hour of in-universe time. In 4e, it was 5 minutes, which is a good deal easier to squeeze in: It's not uncommon for someone to spend longer than that simply searching a room. But for 5e they decided to increase it to an hour.
Sure, but making in-game time progression a limiting factor doesn't actually work very well. This is a problem with long rests as well as short rests, which is what leads to the 'five minute workday'. You'd probably get better gameplay by linking short and long rests to plot progression (you can take a short rest once per minor waypoint, a long rest once per major), but that's a pretty explicitly gamist design.
i wonder what happens when you separate 'healing downtime' short rests from 'light activity mental reset' short rests? downtime is time down, but what if for 5-15 minutes the party shuffles along at half pace and anyone willing to make intentional use of a brain break has their passive perception cut in half (no concentration, no benefit from Alert feat, etc). there is precedence from the DMG:
" ...small rewards at milestone points. Here are some examples:
The adventurers gain the benefit of a short rest.
Characters can recover a Hit Die or a low-level spell slot.
...
"
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The argument could be made with illusionary spells, that they have a negative effect and a lot "effect" creatures actively looking at them, but those are illusion to begin with, overall, no other classes but Warlock and Ranger have core spells like Hex and Hunter's Mark to begin with, spells that without, the class wouldn't even function. So they do need care in how these spells are handled and implemented. The design of Hunter's Mark and Hex is definitely not up to par for something intended to be an integral part of the class design.
Except that isn't at all true? You can have a ranger that functions perfectly fine from level 5+ without using Hunter's Mark - I've seen them played! Same goes for Warlock and Hex, I've seen at least a half dozen blade-locks that never use Hex. Hunter's Mark and Hex have NEVER been the most powerful options for these classes, they are just the easy options that don't require any thinking or strategy. So if you're playing a Warlock or a Ranger and aren't sure what to do in combat using Hex+ EB or Hunter's Mark + longbow is a perfectly fine acceptable option. Optimal? - no, Effective? - yes. They are your standard reliable choices like Spiritual Weapon for clerics, Magic Missile for wizards, or Vicious Mockery for bards.
But it is true, they are designed as such. It's more so the case for Warlock but let's look at warlock spells as per 5E first
The only warlock spell that does more damage than Hex + Eldritch Blast is Hellish Rebuke (2d10 > 1d10+1d6), which falls behind at level 2 with agonizing blast, to a point where it basically keep Hex+Eldritch blast beating out upcasting 1st level spells to 2nd level at level 3/4. Obviously given Hellish Rebuke's trigger, a bit dangerous to use at 1st or 2nd level and it's not reliable.
2nd level spells, cloud of daggers can potentially do more damage if you get it in the right choke point, but it's concentration, so you can't have it and hex. Hex is 3.5 average damage per hit, Cloud of Daggers is 10 average damage, you don't cast Eldritch Blast on the turn it's used and it can also become effectively useless since it's not exactly a subtle effect so most creatures would generally avoid crossing it (thus the choke point requirement), situational but it can be be better. Shatter can do more damage for a single round, but for sustained damage over a combat, Hex is obviously winning. Shadow Blade might be competitive, if you could use Charisma, but as it requires either Strength or Dexterity... it doesn't work well for Warlock.
So 3rd level, well Eldritch Blast now has 2 rays... so (1d10+1d6+MOD)*2, probably a Charisma Modifier of +4 at this point, Armour of Agathys is now getting somewhat viable, Hypnotic Pattern can be powerful however you're not going to recast it within the same fight usually, it'll be replaced by hex or it'll replace hex as necessary. Hunger of Hadar can potentially be potent but has the same issue as Cloud of Daggers, most creatures aren't going to willingly enter the area, but unlike Cloud of Daggers, you can't attack or spell cast through it. Now for Hexblade+Pact of the Blade Warlock, there is Spirit Shroud, which does out-do Hex, quiet well, but every other warlock build, nothing is out-right beating Hex, certainly not in direct damage over the course of a combat but Hypnotic Pattern can certainly be useable over it in the right situations. Summon Fey might be a usable one, but it came from Tasha's which is relatively recent, overall, it loses some power because it takes an action, which is 2 less rays of Eldritch Blast, in terms of damage it'll be slightly beating Hex but as it cost you damage initially, the damage it adds is only really going to bring it up to par by around round 5~7.
At 4th level, finally get Sickening Radiance, the first spell all warlocks can use that really can beat out Hex... that's level 7. It's certainly not a spell you can use in every situation tho, so Hex is not gone yet. at 5th level, there is a few spells for consideration, Synaptic Shock, Negative Energy Flood, Hold Monster... but even with all of these, you'd still want Hex to be prepared.
Yes Hex is a "lazy" spell that many Warlocks use without considering alternatives but there are reasons for it, other than Spirit Shroud, no other spell actually replaces it's utility and if you're not a hexblade using pact of the blade, you generally do not want to be within 10 foot of hostile creatures to begin with. I am not saying Warlocks shouldn't consider alternatives but it really is a reliable spell worth keeping prepared, unless you're one specific build which everybody knows is OP'ed using a subclass that was not a part of the original warlock design but a quick fix to pact of the blade being terribly underwhelming in initial release.
Man, I have to wonder how you are estimating these power calculations... If we assume we do ~6 rounds of combat between each short rest (i.e. 2-3 easy combats that last 1-3 rounds or 1 deadly combat that lasts 6 rounds). Then:
Assuming typical build vs typical opponents for a 60% chance to hit, and enemies have a 50% chance to save Level 3-4 : Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6 = 12.6 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 5.7 per casting Shatter deals on average 10.12 damage per target (4.5*3*0.5+0.5*0.5*3*4.5).
This means 1 Shatter spell that hits 2 targets deals on average 20 total damage for 1 action. Whereas 1x EB+AG + 6 rounds of Hex = 18 total damage.
Level 5-6: Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6*2 = 25.2 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 11.4 per casting = total of 34.6 damage Thunderstep deals on average 12.4 damage per target (3*5.5*0.5+0.5*0.5*3*5.5) = 3 targets in a Thunderstep area is a total of 37.2 damage SummonShadowspawn deals 0.6*(6.5+6) = 7.5 damage per round = 45 total damage across 6 rounds
Level 7-8: Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6*2 = 25.2 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 11.4 per casting = total of 34.6 damage SummonShadowspawn deals 0.6*(6.5+7)*2 damage per round = 97 total damage across 6 rounds ShadowOfMoil increases your chance to hit with each EB+AG to 0.84 from permanent advantage = 27.4 extra damage from your EB+AG
Level 9-10: Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6*2 = 25.2 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 11.4 per casting = total of 34.6 damage Synaptic Static deals 8*3.5*(0.5+0.5*0.5) = 21 damage per target, Hitting 2 targets with Synaptic Static = 42 damage Armour of Agathys deals 25 damage per hit.
If your party has fewer than 6 rounds of combat between SRs (Or you lose concentration on Hex before you finish the 6 rounds) then these numbers are skewed even further towards alternatives to Hex...
Assuming typical build vs typical opponents for a 60% chance to hit, and enemies have a 50% chance to save Level 3-4 : Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6 = 12.6 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 5.7 per casting Shatter deals on average 10.12 damage per target (4.5*3*0.5+0.5*0.5*3*4.5).
This means 1 Shatter spell that hits 2 targets deals on average 20 total damage for 1 action. Whereas 1x EB+AG + 6 rounds of Hex = 18 total damage.
Hex at 60% chance to hit (which is a bit on the low side), would be 0.65 * 3.5 or 2.275 per attack. Over 6 rounds that'd be 13.65
If you had a mod of +3 at level 3 and the average AC for CR3 creatures is generally 13, your chance to hit would be. So 3+2 or a +5 to attack, meaning that you hit on an 8, or 65% of the time. So adjusting to a 65% chance to hit, we get 0.7 * 3.5 or 2.45. Over 6 rounds that is 14.7 damage.
EB+AB would be either 5.5+3 (level 3) or 5.5+4 (level 4). But since we are talking a chance to hit of 65%... This would be 5.5 * 0.7 + MOD * 0.65 or 5.8 for level 3 and 6.45 for level 4. To get a Spell Save DC of ~50% save, you'd also be looking around these same modifiers, so I am figuring this is what you're using.
Level 3 - 5 round damage - 18.05
Level 4 - 5 round damage - 18.7
Shatter is 3d8, or 13.5. If we assume that 50% of the time there is a 50% damage loss, easier to just multiply by 0.75. Which actually gives 10.125 damage per target, your equation gives that too but the 0.005 disappeared. Shatter obviously loses against a single target, which is not an uncommon scenario in this tier of play. I would still consider using shatter but I'd use last spell slot for Hex, since you never know what is going to come up after. Shatter does also have a few situations where it might not be usable, if the creatures you want to target are in the middle of the party for example, it's still a great spell and one I'd consider.
Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6*2 = 25.2 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 11.4 per casting = total of 34.6 damage Thunderstep deals on average 12.4 damage per target (3*5.5*0.5+0.5*0.5*3*5.5) = 3 targets in a Thunderstep area is a total of 37.2 damage SummonShadowspawn deals 0.6*(6.5+6) = 7.5 damage per round = 45 total damage across 6 rounds
I don't consider ThunderStep a good one, it's very situational, first off, it doesn't ignore your own allies, which is a major issue. The 2nd is you need to be in melee range which either mean you're pact of the blade (Spirit Shroud would be better), or you got caught out. It creates sound for 300 foot which can snowball things into potential TPK territory, if you want a spell to escape when you get caught out then stick with Misty Step, no risk and no danger to allies.
I'll Admit, Summon Shadowspawn does in fact look good. Was not aware of this spell, simple as.
Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6*2 = 25.2 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 11.4 per casting = total of 34.6 damage SummonShadowspawn deals 0.6*(6.5+7)*2 damage per round = 97 total damage across 6 rounds ShadowOfMoil increases your chance to hit with each EB+AG to 0.84 from permanent advantage = 27.4 extra damage from your EB+AG
Shadow of Moil is not permanent advantage, there are creatures it doesn't work on, for example anything with truesight or tremor sense. If you have any other source of advantage, it loses out quickly too. Going to stick with 65% for this one, assuming an optimized build.
Level 7: (5.5 + 4) * 0.8775 + 5.5 * 0.0975 = 8.8725 - per attack of EB with Shadow of Moil vs. (5.5 + 4 +3.5 ) * 0.65 + (5.5 + 3.5) * 0.05 = 8.9 - per attack of EB with Hex. Hex actually wins this one
Level 8: (5.5 + 5) * 0.8775 + 5.5 * 0.0975 = 9.75 - per attack of EB with Shadow of Moil vs. (5.5 + 5 +3.5 ) * 0.65 + (5.5 + 3.5) * 0.05 = 9.55 - per attack of EB with Hex. Shadow of Moil actually wins this one.
Overall, I'd still favor hex here with an optimized build, Shadow of Moil blocks line of sight, which is both good and bad. It means you might be missing out on buffs and heals but also means you are harder to target with spells requiring line of sight, it however does nothing against area of effect spells. But the reason I still favour hex is because situations where you get advantage or get a buff like Bless is enough to more than make up for slightly less damage at level 8.
Shadowspawn is definitely winning here, no arguments on that one.
Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6*2 = 25.2 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 11.4 per casting = total of 34.6 damage Synaptic Static deals 8*3.5*(0.5+0.5*0.5) = 21 damage per target, Hitting 2 targets with Synaptic Static = 42 damage Armour of Agathys deals 25 damage per hit.
If your party has fewer than 6 rounds of combat between SRs (Or you lose concentration on Hex before you finish the 6 rounds) then these numbers are skewed even further towards alternatives to Hex...
I already listed Armour of Agathys back at 3rd level spells.... I also listed spells at 5th level which included Synaptic Static. It alone does not stop you wanting to still have Hex tho. Ultimately as a Warlock, you still have limited slots, so when you're down to the last one, sometimes it is just wiser to stick with what is liable to last longer.
Really, the only spell challenging that is Shadowspawn, but Shadowspawn has one weakness that hex doesn't, the summon itself can be killed at which point you lose the spell, Shadowspawn is more damage overall, no doubt, having both prepared is not going to be a bad choice but when it comes to last spell slot remaining, it's going on hex. Additionally Hex and Shadowspawn are two spells who's effects can go into multiple battles, which is where a lot of the power is going, in a situation where you can't short rest or your short rest gets interrupted, it's not bad to have a spell like either of these up tho a Shadowspawn will not last a whole short rest, where hex would.
What do you think of the solution that Jeremy Crawford has proposed in his latest video? I mean, the warlock's spell level progression is like a full caster, but he gets fewer spell slots than a full caster.
We would have to see how that is reflected, since I understand that the level of the slots would not go beyond lvl 5.
I think that's a horrible idea. If they're going to keep a Warlock as an odd-ball in their spell slot progression, keep their 5e spell slot progression mechanic. If they're going to change how their spell slot progression works, then either make them half-casters or full-casters (without special odd-ball changes to the spell slot chart). Don't invent yet another odd-ball spell-slot progression.
My preference is to have the Hexer invocation make Hex not require concentration.
I think we can do more interesting things with hex based invocations. Making it a worthwhile spell to cast on its own.... like EB..... and then adding invocations is just more interesting.
A spin on no concentration I think they could do is Hex requires concentration but does not count against their limit of how many spells they can concentrate on. So it can still be disrupted but it does not stop the warlock from using objectively better spells. And even with invocations I doubt it is going to line up with things like fear or animate objects etc.
Could do what was basically done for the Ranger with Hunter's Mark: Hunter's mark doesn't require Concentration for a Ranger. Have Hex not require Concentration for Warlocks.
My preference is to have the Hexer invocation make Hex not require concentration.
I think we can do more interesting things with hex based invocations. Making it a worthwhile spell to cast on its own.... like EB..... and then adding invocations is just more interesting.
A spin on no concentration I think they could do is Hex requires concentration but does not count against their limit of how many spells they can concentrate on. So it can still be disrupted but it does not stop the warlock from using objectively better spells. And even with invocations I doubt it is going to line up with things like fear or animate objects etc.
Could do what was basically done for the Ranger with Hunter's Mark: Hunter's mark doesn't require Concentration for a Ranger. Have Hex not require Concentration for Warlocks.
Honestly this. I find at higher levels, hex isn't worth wasting my concentration on.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
My preference is to have the Hexer invocation make Hex not require concentration.
I think we can do more interesting things with hex based invocations. Making it a worthwhile spell to cast on its own.... like EB..... and then adding invocations is just more interesting.
A spin on no concentration I think they could do is Hex requires concentration but does not count against their limit of how many spells they can concentrate on. So it can still be disrupted but it does not stop the warlock from using objectively better spells. And even with invocations I doubt it is going to line up with things like fear or animate objects etc.
Could do what was basically done for the Ranger with Hunter's Mark: Hunter's mark doesn't require Concentration for a Ranger. Have Hex not require Concentration for Warlocks.
That would be my preference but I assume there is a reason they didn't go that route when it was well received on the ranger.
This would be 5.5 * 0.7 + MOD * 0.65 or 5.8 for level 3
Sorry, but why is there a 0.7% chance for the 1d10 force damage but a 0.65% chance for the +CHA modifier? That doesn't make a lick of sense. You should have either 0.7 or 0.65 * (5.5+MOD).
PS if you're casting spells you're already breaking your stealth, Thunderstep is absolutely awesome since it deals damage, and teleports both you and a friend a distance large enough that you will be guaranteed to be out of melee for at least 1 round, often 2 rounds or more with its 90ft range. I've used it so many times to run up to an ally who is getting swarmed and teleport both of us to safety while damaging all of the 3-5 enemies that were swarming them.
That's without us even considering the out-of-combat applications to get not just yourself but a friend across e.g. a river of lava completely safely. I always take it with my warlocks and it always comes in useful.
Shadowspawn likewise gives not just straight damage but other benefits as well, sure it can be killed but it's also giving you tanking for the party in doing so. 70 extra hit points for a 5th level party is nothing to sneeze at.
Why would the fighter need to use action surge out of combat? That doesn't even make any sense
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Structured time can be used for more than just combat.
Any time turn order and action economy matters it can be used.
The core problem is that, when they copied the short rest mechanic from 4th edition, they didn't copy the rest of the logic that surrounded it (4e was a flawed system, but there was a definite logic to the decisions it made).
In 4e, buffs didn't last beyond the encounter they were cast in, unless they were rituals that cost money, and healing required you expend a daily resource (equivalent to making all healing abilities in 5e just let the target spend hit dice). This meant that chaining short rests was completely pointless.
Once you get buffs that last for more than the duration of a short rest, or healing powers that aren't self-limited, you've created an incentive to chain short rests.
Mostly agree, I just think the design is you are supposed to do this. Most buffs don't last longer than a short rest, darkvision, hex, hunters mark are some of the few. Hex is the clearest example imo as with pact magic it auto scales well past long rest. The effect of the spell is pretty minor and will usually be dropped for a better concentration spell at a fight. They only have 2 spells, so without this they have a minor effect that drops frequently in the first fight for a better spell after which they have no spells. They have invocations based around this one spell so its clear they intended you to take it. While it never hit public play test as far as I know it is so obvious I doubt it was missed.The incentive they created was intentional. I also think it is good for the game. If someone does not like this style of play there are 7 long rest spell caster classes to use, all of which can be flavored into a warlock theme by the player. But for the people who do like it, they at least have A option in both martial and casting classes.
No, you don't get to claim your way is the only way to play the 5e warlock, sorry
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Sure, but they also added a counter incentive: it takes an hour of in-universe time. In 4e, it was 5 minutes, which is a good deal easier to squeeze in: It's not uncommon for someone to spend longer than that simply searching a room. But for 5e they decided to increase it to an hour.
Now, the natural conclusion here, I don't actually agree with. It goes like this: If you have time to chain together 1-hour rests, or otherwise take more of them than I personally think you should in a day, then your DM is doing something wrong. In other words, the DM is supposed to instinctively know, without being instructed, when they should pressure your party and when they shouldn't, and because they can do this, there's actually zero problems in the design, there's only problems in the DM's brain, or possibly their soul.
Here's what I actually think. Random encounter tables need to have a second step beyond "what type of thing do you encounter?" And that step should be, "in what context do you encounter it?" (They should also be way more likely to trigger something. Cut out the step where you roll to see if there even is a random encounter. Or at least increase the odds.)
DMs are reluctant to roll random encounters during rests because it frankly just means you're forcing the party into a fight, and they're already down some resources they're trying to get back for future fights. It feels mean and pointless. But random encounters don't need to be fights. There's a lot of good advice for this out there, I won't retread it now. But anyway, if the tables were set up this way by default, then you could roll EVERY TIME the party rests, and you wouldn't be a cruel villain ruining their day, you'd just be giving them the appropriate counter-pressure. Sometimes it's a fight still, but sometimes it isn't. Sometimes the party gets to choose whether it is.
Or not. Because once again, we're not fixing how people play, we're fixing how the numbers work out as a result of how people play. Put short rests back at 5 minutes and limit the number a party can take. Easy.
You are trying to claim how every class needs to be played. People saying there should be options for others are the bad guys in your book.
This concept of related design logic really feels off in one(5er). The abilities/features/etc read well isolated from the rest but put together into a coherent class..... parts of gameplay, story, and progression feel off.
I didn't think 5e was bad for having an OK logic system under the rock,paper, scissors concept. Where each class has things that are easy or hard depending on senario. Then fun results from experiencing mixture of such results via good dm/player adventure design or random tables.
Sure, but making in-game time progression a limiting factor doesn't actually work very well. This is a problem with long rests as well as short rests, which is what leads to the 'five minute workday'. You'd probably get better gameplay by linking short and long rests to plot progression (you can take a short rest once per minor waypoint, a long rest once per major), but that's a pretty explicitly gamist design.
Is it really that much of an issue? The DM can and should just say "it's 8 am in the morning, you aren't tired so cannot take a long rest." The rules actually put limits on the number of long rests per 24 hours of in-game time. If the party insists on trying to sit in a single room of a dungeon for 12+ hours they can easily have some monsters attack the party. The main problem with 5e design is long-distance travel which honestly should just be a montage if the DM hasn't got plot-related content planned.
But it is true, they are designed as such. It's more so the case for Warlock but let's look at warlock spells as per 5E first
The only warlock spell that does more damage than Hex + Eldritch Blast is Hellish Rebuke (2d10 > 1d10+1d6), which falls behind at level 2 with agonizing blast, to a point where it basically keep Hex+Eldritch blast beating out upcasting 1st level spells to 2nd level at level 3/4. Obviously given Hellish Rebuke's trigger, a bit dangerous to use at 1st or 2nd level and it's not reliable.
2nd level spells, cloud of daggers can potentially do more damage if you get it in the right choke point, but it's concentration, so you can't have it and hex. Hex is 3.5 average damage per hit, Cloud of Daggers is 10 average damage, you don't cast Eldritch Blast on the turn it's used and it can also become effectively useless since it's not exactly a subtle effect so most creatures would generally avoid crossing it (thus the choke point requirement), situational but it can be be better. Shatter can do more damage for a single round, but for sustained damage over a combat, Hex is obviously winning. Shadow Blade might be competitive, if you could use Charisma, but as it requires either Strength or Dexterity... it doesn't work well for Warlock.
So 3rd level, well Eldritch Blast now has 2 rays... so (1d10+1d6+MOD)*2, probably a Charisma Modifier of +4 at this point, Armour of Agathys is now getting somewhat viable, Hypnotic Pattern can be powerful however you're not going to recast it within the same fight usually, it'll be replaced by hex or it'll replace hex as necessary. Hunger of Hadar can potentially be potent but has the same issue as Cloud of Daggers, most creatures aren't going to willingly enter the area, but unlike Cloud of Daggers, you can't attack or spell cast through it. Now for Hexblade+Pact of the Blade Warlock, there is Spirit Shroud, which does out-do Hex, quiet well, but every other warlock build, nothing is out-right beating Hex, certainly not in direct damage over the course of a combat but Hypnotic Pattern can certainly be useable over it in the right situations. Summon Fey might be a usable one, but it came from Tasha's which is relatively recent, overall, it loses some power because it takes an action, which is 2 less rays of Eldritch Blast, in terms of damage it'll be slightly beating Hex but as it cost you damage initially, the damage it adds is only really going to bring it up to par by around round 5~7.
At 4th level, finally get Sickening Radiance, the first spell all warlocks can use that really can beat out Hex... that's level 7. It's certainly not a spell you can use in every situation tho, so Hex is not gone yet. at 5th level, there is a few spells for consideration, Synaptic Shock, Negative Energy Flood, Hold Monster... but even with all of these, you'd still want Hex to be prepared.
Yes Hex is a "lazy" spell that many Warlocks use without considering alternatives but there are reasons for it, other than Spirit Shroud, no other spell actually replaces it's utility and if you're not a hexblade using pact of the blade, you generally do not want to be within 10 foot of hostile creatures to begin with. I am not saying Warlocks shouldn't consider alternatives but it really is a reliable spell worth keeping prepared, unless you're one specific build which everybody knows is OP'ed using a subclass that was not a part of the original warlock design but a quick fix to pact of the blade being terribly underwhelming in initial release.
makes sense to me. university wasn't so long ago for me that i've forgotten how many calories a study session can snarffle up. thinking isn't free. ...and now my next warlock will definitely be carrying around some candies and trail mix to make a point of recharging directly after battles.
i wonder what happens when you separate 'healing downtime' short rests from 'light activity mental reset' short rests? downtime is time down, but what if for 5-15 minutes the party shuffles along at half pace and anyone willing to make intentional use of a brain break has their passive perception cut in half (no concentration, no benefit from Alert feat, etc). there is precedence from the DMG:
"
...small rewards at milestone points. Here are some examples:
"
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Man, I have to wonder how you are estimating these power calculations... If we assume we do ~6 rounds of combat between each short rest (i.e. 2-3 easy combats that last 1-3 rounds or 1 deadly combat that lasts 6 rounds). Then:
Assuming typical build vs typical opponents for a 60% chance to hit, and enemies have a 50% chance to save
Level 3-4 :
Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6 = 12.6 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 5.7 per casting
Shatter deals on average 10.12 damage per target (4.5*3*0.5+0.5*0.5*3*4.5).
This means 1 Shatter spell that hits 2 targets deals on average 20 total damage for 1 action. Whereas 1x EB+AG + 6 rounds of Hex = 18 total damage.
Level 5-6:
Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6*2 = 25.2 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 11.4 per casting = total of 34.6 damage
Thunderstep deals on average 12.4 damage per target (3*5.5*0.5+0.5*0.5*3*5.5) = 3 targets in a Thunderstep area is a total of 37.2 damage
SummonShadowspawn deals 0.6*(6.5+6) = 7.5 damage per round = 45 total damage across 6 rounds
Level 7-8:
Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6*2 = 25.2 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 11.4 per casting = total of 34.6 damage
SummonShadowspawn deals 0.6*(6.5+7)*2 damage per round = 97 total damage across 6 rounds
ShadowOfMoil increases your chance to hit with each EB+AG to 0.84 from permanent advantage = 27.4 extra damage from your EB+AG
Level 9-10:
Hex deals 0.6*3.5*6*2 = 25.2 total damage per casting, and EB+AG does 11.4 per casting = total of 34.6 damage
Synaptic Static deals 8*3.5*(0.5+0.5*0.5) = 21 damage per target, Hitting 2 targets with Synaptic Static = 42 damage
Armour of Agathys deals 25 damage per hit.
If your party has fewer than 6 rounds of combat between SRs (Or you lose concentration on Hex before you finish the 6 rounds) then these numbers are skewed even further towards alternatives to Hex...
Hex at 60% chance to hit (which is a bit on the low side), would be 0.65 * 3.5 or 2.275 per attack. Over 6 rounds that'd be 13.65
If you had a mod of +3 at level 3 and the average AC for CR3 creatures is generally 13, your chance to hit would be. So 3+2 or a +5 to attack, meaning that you hit on an 8, or 65% of the time. So adjusting to a 65% chance to hit, we get 0.7 * 3.5 or 2.45. Over 6 rounds that is 14.7 damage.
EB+AB would be either 5.5+3 (level 3) or 5.5+4 (level 4). But since we are talking a chance to hit of 65%... This would be 5.5 * 0.7 + MOD * 0.65 or 5.8 for level 3 and 6.45 for level 4. To get a Spell Save DC of ~50% save, you'd also be looking around these same modifiers, so I am figuring this is what you're using.
Level 3 - 5 round damage - 18.05
Level 4 - 5 round damage - 18.7
Shatter is 3d8, or 13.5. If we assume that 50% of the time there is a 50% damage loss, easier to just multiply by 0.75. Which actually gives 10.125 damage per target, your equation gives that too but the 0.005 disappeared. Shatter obviously loses against a single target, which is not an uncommon scenario in this tier of play. I would still consider using shatter but I'd use last spell slot for Hex, since you never know what is going to come up after. Shatter does also have a few situations where it might not be usable, if the creatures you want to target are in the middle of the party for example, it's still a great spell and one I'd consider.
I don't consider ThunderStep a good one, it's very situational, first off, it doesn't ignore your own allies, which is a major issue. The 2nd is you need to be in melee range which either mean you're pact of the blade (Spirit Shroud would be better), or you got caught out. It creates sound for 300 foot which can snowball things into potential TPK territory, if you want a spell to escape when you get caught out then stick with Misty Step, no risk and no danger to allies.
I'll Admit, Summon Shadowspawn does in fact look good. Was not aware of this spell, simple as.
Shadow of Moil is not permanent advantage, there are creatures it doesn't work on, for example anything with truesight or tremor sense. If you have any other source of advantage, it loses out quickly too. Going to stick with 65% for this one, assuming an optimized build.
Level 7: (5.5 + 4) * 0.8775 + 5.5 * 0.0975 = 8.8725 - per attack of EB with Shadow of Moil vs. (5.5 + 4 +3.5 ) * 0.65 + (5.5 + 3.5) * 0.05 = 8.9 - per attack of EB with Hex. Hex actually wins this one
Level 8: (5.5 + 5) * 0.8775 + 5.5 * 0.0975 = 9.75 - per attack of EB with Shadow of Moil vs. (5.5 + 5 +3.5 ) * 0.65 + (5.5 + 3.5) * 0.05 = 9.55 - per attack of EB with Hex. Shadow of Moil actually wins this one.
Overall, I'd still favor hex here with an optimized build, Shadow of Moil blocks line of sight, which is both good and bad. It means you might be missing out on buffs and heals but also means you are harder to target with spells requiring line of sight, it however does nothing against area of effect spells. But the reason I still favour hex is because situations where you get advantage or get a buff like Bless is enough to more than make up for slightly less damage at level 8.
Shadowspawn is definitely winning here, no arguments on that one.
I already listed Armour of Agathys back at 3rd level spells.... I also listed spells at 5th level which included Synaptic Static. It alone does not stop you wanting to still have Hex tho. Ultimately as a Warlock, you still have limited slots, so when you're down to the last one, sometimes it is just wiser to stick with what is liable to last longer.
Really, the only spell challenging that is Shadowspawn, but Shadowspawn has one weakness that hex doesn't, the summon itself can be killed at which point you lose the spell, Shadowspawn is more damage overall, no doubt, having both prepared is not going to be a bad choice but when it comes to last spell slot remaining, it's going on hex. Additionally Hex and Shadowspawn are two spells who's effects can go into multiple battles, which is where a lot of the power is going, in a situation where you can't short rest or your short rest gets interrupted, it's not bad to have a spell like either of these up tho a Shadowspawn will not last a whole short rest, where hex would.
I think that's a horrible idea. If they're going to keep a Warlock as an odd-ball in their spell slot progression, keep their 5e spell slot progression mechanic. If they're going to change how their spell slot progression works, then either make them half-casters or full-casters (without special odd-ball changes to the spell slot chart). Don't invent yet another odd-ball spell-slot progression.
Could do what was basically done for the Ranger with Hunter's Mark: Hunter's mark doesn't require Concentration for a Ranger. Have Hex not require Concentration for Warlocks.
Honestly this. I find at higher levels, hex isn't worth wasting my concentration on.
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Tasha
That would be my preference but I assume there is a reason they didn't go that route when it was well received on the ranger.
Sorry, but why is there a 0.7% chance for the 1d10 force damage but a 0.65% chance for the +CHA modifier? That doesn't make a lick of sense. You should have either 0.7 or 0.65 * (5.5+MOD).
PS if you're casting spells you're already breaking your stealth, Thunderstep is absolutely awesome since it deals damage, and teleports both you and a friend a distance large enough that you will be guaranteed to be out of melee for at least 1 round, often 2 rounds or more with its 90ft range. I've used it so many times to run up to an ally who is getting swarmed and teleport both of us to safety while damaging all of the 3-5 enemies that were swarming them.
That's without us even considering the out-of-combat applications to get not just yourself but a friend across e.g. a river of lava completely safely. I always take it with my warlocks and it always comes in useful.
Shadowspawn likewise gives not just straight damage but other benefits as well, sure it can be killed but it's also giving you tanking for the party in doing so. 70 extra hit points for a 5th level party is nothing to sneeze at.
65% to hit (1d10), 5% to crit (+1d10) adds up to 0.7d10. As flat damage adds cannot crit, they are only multiplied by 0.65.