Let’s add another one. Anyone have an idea on how to improve cleave? I mean, I don’t like that the targets have to be next to each other. How about if they made it next to you? This was you actually have more options and it’s more likely to happen, or even five feet from you or a target? What do you guys think?
Number two: What to replace flex with since it seems unanimous that no one likes it?
An Idea I like for flex is the ability to add other properties. For example if you are holding it one handed you could get reach added to the weapon and if you are holding it with 2 hands you could get finesse added to the weapon. This would simulate how swords were used, with 1 hand being used to increase the reach and two hands being used to increase power and speed.
So you’d do a d10 with reach and still have a shield? Goodbye glaive and halberd.
Personally, I don’t see flex as that bad. You do damage on par with a polearm, but get to keep your shield. It’s not as cool as the battlefield control options, but it’s not bad. It’s just not flashy. And it’s good to have options that just add something passive for people who don’t want to have too many choices in combat.
Except it is bad. The average of one extra damage that it deals on a hit is pretty pitiful compared to the utility or raw damage of every other mastery. I do like the idea of a very simple mastery option, but Graze already fills that role with being a) simple, b) satisfying, and c) effective. I suppose Graze and Flex are available on different weapons, so maybe having Flex knock a weapon up 2 notches to either a d12 or 2d6 would be better. But in its current form, it's by far the worst option.
Is flex bad? It gives you the same bonus you gain for giving up your shield (+2 AC) to fight two-handed, and technically still works with the dealing fighting style. So at level 1 your fighter could be doing 1d10+ 2 from dueling + Str and have AC 18 from chain mail and shield. The real problem is flex is better than the versatile property. It doesn’t work with property it instead supplants the property. Versatile was already a weak property unless you couldn’t use two-handed weapons and flex makes the property seem weaker.
Flex turns a 1d8 into a 1d10, 1 extra damage. Going two-handed turns a 1d8 into 2d6, 2.5 extra damage. I dunno where you got the idea that two-handed=1d10. It's not like dueling is super amazing compared to other fighting styles, so that's not much of a selling point. You also have to compare flex to the other choices of mastery. Once you do that, you realize a mastery is worth more than 1 damage.
Once you realize what versatile does then you will understand where the d10 comes from. Why did you make that argument without even understanding the weapon properties?
Edit:
Also like I said in my last post it’s not about the 1 extra damage it’s about the AC added by a shield.
The AC added by a shield has absolutely nothing to do with Flex, especially since there are plenty of other masteries you can put on one-handed weapons. No sane person actually uses a versatile property with both hands, so if you're making the claim that Flex lets you deal two-handed damage while still keeping a shield, you have to compare the damage that Flex does with an actual two-handed weapon: the greatsword, which does 2d6, 1.5 higher (on average) than 1d10.
Why on earth would you make such a bad argument? Why do I have to compare flex to two handed weapons 2d6 when it’s literally on a versatile weapon which gives 1d10 when used in two hands? Why do you believe no sane person would use the versatile property 2 handed when there are plenty of circumstances to do it? I’ll admit there are aren’t many good reasons, but definitely some sane reasons:
You have a versatile magic weapon you found as loot and normally don’t use a shield or just don’t have one at the moment. Like a Barbarian finding a flame tongue longsword might just use it two handed if they had been using a maul and no shield until that point. Or a fighter who took great weapon fighting style and now has that flame tongue longsword instead of his great axe.
Kensei Monks
Small Str builds that can’t use heavy weapons.
Sorry to be the first to inform you that not every player is a min/max optimizer. My arguments are based on the rules and functionality of the versatile property. If you disdain the property that’s okay. But for you to act like my argument is flawed is ridiculous. Flex is actually superior to the versatile property. It supplants the property making weapons with this mastery better than they were without it. Flex is better than push and slow. It is more consistently needed. There is no situation were additional damage isn’t needed. Is it boring? Yes. Is it bad? No
You can compare it to 2-handed fighting all you want, and you can say how great a shield is, and you can say how great it could be with Nick, but the fact of the matter is that none of those things are the effects of Flex. Flex gives you one extra damage each hit.
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You can compare it to 2-handed fighting all you want, and you can say how great a shield is, and you can say how great it could be with Nick, but the fact of the matter is that none of those things are the effects of Flex. Flex gives you one extra damage each hit.
Flex gives you the same benefit using a versatile weapon two handed. I’m not just saying it. It is literally what it does. It is literally designed only for versatile weapons. No one sane denies how great a +2 AC from a shield is in the bounded accuracy system of current DND. Also your claim of it’s just 1 damage means nothing to me. It’s one damage every hit. Fighters hit a lot. I’ve had plenty of monsters survive with 1-5 damage and got to do one more round of damage to the party. Additionally like I pointed out in my original post it works with dueling which adds another +2 to the damage. Wait, that combo makes it as good as the d12 weapon which is questionable if you like 1d12 or 2d6. So a fighter can have 18 AC with chain mail and shield and still deal 1d10+2+Str at level 1. How is that not good. How is a 16 AC dealing 2d6+Str better?
The logical thing to compare it against are other one handed masteries. Flex does 1 damage. Or you could do Topple, vex, or sap. I don't think it stacks up against those, not even sap which is the weakest option of the 3. Rolling down to d6 weapons so its 2 damage, would add in nick which is giving up a shield for damage without a shield. Depending on goals that might be a fair trade. Tank, vs damage is the choice with two handed vs shield and weapon, where nick falls down is its property is to basically be a two handed weapon in damage but without all the good two handed properties. So like its better than nick maybe in that a two hander is better than two weapon(for a fighter maybe not as they will add vex later on which is broken)
You can compare it to 2-handed fighting all you want, and you can say how great a shield is, and you can say how great it could be with Nick, but the fact of the matter is that none of those things are the effects of Flex. Flex gives you one extra damage each hit.
Flex gives you the same benefit using a versatile weapon two handed. I’m not just saying it. It is literally what it does. It is literally designed only for versatile weapons. No one sane denies how great a +2 AC from a shield is in the bounded accuracy system of current DND. Also your claim of it’s just 1 damage means nothing to me. It’s one damage every hit. Fighters hit a lot. I’ve had plenty of monsters survive with 1-5 damage and got to do one more round of damage to the party. Additionally like I pointed out in my original post it works with dueling which adds another +2 to the damage. Wait, that combo makes it as good as the d12 weapon which is questionable if you like 1d12 or 2d6. So a fighter can have 18 AC with chain mail and shield and still deal 1d10+2+Str at level 1. How is that not good. How is a 16 AC dealing 2d6+Str better?
Comparing 18 AC and 1d10+2+Str to 16 AC and 2d6+Str isn't logical. You should instead be comparing it to 16 AC and 2d6 + Str + rerolling 1s and 2s + dealing Str damage on a miss, or 17 AC and 2d6 + Str + a decent chance to knock prone.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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But flex works every time, while the others, except for vex, really, are situational. Topple is good, unless there’s a lot of ranged people in your party and now they’ve got disadvantage, and of course, it might not work. Sap is good, unless your attacking a caster who forces saving throws instead of making attack rolls. Vex, well vex is really way too good. And putting it on the rapier, the default weapon for dex builds, actually seems like it’s taking choices away because now who would not choose a rapier. But anyway, Flex is boring, but doing a little more damage is always a good choice in every situation. I’m thinking of it like taking an asi instead of a feat. It’s not as flashy, but it’s reliable and sometimes you just want a simple, reliable passive boost.
I just hope the survey lets us rate them individually.
The logical thing to compare it against are other one handed masteries. Flex does 1 damage. Or you could do Topple, vex, or sap. I don't think it stacks up against those, not even sap which is the weakest option of the 3. Rolling down to d6 weapons so its 2 damage, would add in nick which is giving up a shield for damage without a shield. Depending on goals that might be a fair trade. Tank, vs damage is the choice with two handed vs shield and weapon, where nick falls down is its property is to basically be a two handed weapon in damage but without all the good two handed properties. So like its better than nick maybe in that a two hander is better than two weapon(for a fighter maybe not as they will add vex later on which is broken)
Topple and vex are clearly the best in the game, notice you left push and slow off your list. It’s as good if not better than those.
The logical thing to compare it against are other one handed masteries. Flex does 1 damage. Or you could do Topple, vex, or sap. I don't think it stacks up against those, not even sap which is the weakest option of the 3. Rolling down to d6 weapons so its 2 damage, would add in nick which is giving up a shield for damage without a shield. Depending on goals that might be a fair trade. Tank, vs damage is the choice with two handed vs shield and weapon, where nick falls down is its property is to basically be a two handed weapon in damage but without all the good two handed properties. So like its better than nick maybe in that a two hander is better than two weapon(for a fighter maybe not as they will add vex later on which is broken)
Topple and vex are clearly the best in the game, notice you left push and slow off your list. It’s as good if not better than those.
Push is only on two handed weapons or the heavy crossbow, slow is mostly ranged/thrown weapon and reach weapons the one handed is whip which is d4. If there was a one handed d8 push at default without needing a fighters swap ability I'd put that above flex, slow I think only really works with ranged weapons slowing someone in melee with you seems kind of pointless in most cases. Javelin sort of works but I'm having a hard time envisioning a pile of javelins build. A simple weapon, weapon and shield with weapon mastery class feature build is kind of rare. Shoving people with all the various environmental effects from nature and spells will almost always be better than flex.
You can compare it to 2-handed fighting all you want, and you can say how great a shield is, and you can say how great it could be with Nick, but the fact of the matter is that none of those things are the effects of Flex. Flex gives you one extra damage each hit.
Flex gives you the same benefit using a versatile weapon two handed. I’m not just saying it. It is literally what it does. It is literally designed only for versatile weapons. No one sane denies how great a +2 AC from a shield is in the bounded accuracy system of current DND. Also your claim of it’s just 1 damage means nothing to me. It’s one damage every hit. Fighters hit a lot. I’ve had plenty of monsters survive with 1-5 damage and got to do one more round of damage to the party. Additionally like I pointed out in my original post it works with dueling which adds another +2 to the damage. Wait, that combo makes it as good as the d12 weapon which is questionable if you like 1d12 or 2d6. So a fighter can have 18 AC with chain mail and shield and still deal 1d10+2+Str at level 1. How is that not good. How is a 16 AC dealing 2d6+Str better?
Comparing 18 AC and 1d10+2+Str to 16 AC and 2d6+Str isn't logical. You should instead be comparing it to 16 AC and 2d6 + Str + rerolling 1s and 2s + dealing Str damage on a miss, or 17 AC and 2d6 + Str + a decent chance to knock prone.
You’re right that is a more fair and logically comparison. I’ll take 18 AC with 1d10+2+Str over topple most days. Knocking down opponents is great for your melee teammates but horrible for you ranged teammates. So that depends on party composition and turn order. You get the same bonus from flanking. So the only real question is do you want more a little more damage or a more defense. Personally I’m taking the AC, not getting hit at low levels is huge for survivability. Graze is both assume and sucks at the same time. If you are rolling hot and hitting it does nothing, if you a rolling cold it’s the greatest mastery ever. So my point still stands even when comparing Flex to things it wasn’t designed to stand against. The reality is what I said before is still true. Versatile weapons should have two properties, one for when it’s used one handed and another for when it is used two handed.
The logical thing to compare it against are other one handed masteries. Flex does 1 damage. Or you could do Topple, vex, or sap. I don't think it stacks up against those, not even sap which is the weakest option of the 3. Rolling down to d6 weapons so its 2 damage, would add in nick which is giving up a shield for damage without a shield. Depending on goals that might be a fair trade. Tank, vs damage is the choice with two handed vs shield and weapon, where nick falls down is its property is to basically be a two handed weapon in damage but without all the good two handed properties. So like its better than nick maybe in that a two hander is better than two weapon(for a fighter maybe not as they will add vex later on which is broken)
Topple and vex are clearly the best in the game, notice you left push and slow off your list. It’s as good if not better than those.
Push is only on two handed weapons or the heavy crossbow, slow is mostly ranged/thrown weapon and reach weapons the one handed is whip which is d4. If there was a one handed d8 push at default without needing a fighters swap ability I'd put that above flex, slow I think only really works with ranged weapons slowing someone in melee with you seems kind of pointless in most cases. Javelin sort of works but I'm having a hard time envisioning a pile of javelins build. A simple weapon, weapon and shield with weapon mastery class feature build is kind of rare. Shoving people with all the various environmental effects from nature and spells will almost always be better than flex.
I don’t put push above flex. Consistent damage over situational forced movement. There aren’t tons of natural hazards. Vex is clearly the best and topple the second best depending on party composition. If you have archers or spell attackers in your party they will start hating you if you spam topple to give yourself advantage.
Flex gives you the same benefit using a versatile weapon two handed.
Flex gives no benefit when you wield the weapon two-handed, it only benefits the one-handed use-case, which is probably my main complaint against it (though I also think +1 average damage is a bit boring); the whole point of versatile weapons is supposed to be that you can use it either one-handed or two-handed, but with Flex there's no reason to ever use it two-handed, so now a build with Weapon Mastery (but not the ability to swap as a fighter does) is discouraged from considering versatile weapons with Flex for two-handing because it will be worse than just using it one one-handed with a shield or anything else you can do with the other hand, but for some characters they're the only option, e.g- a two-handing Halfling.
The other issue is that with the exception of battleaxe and trident (which have Topple) every other versatile weapon has Flex as its mastery, so they're still all basically the same, which again is boring, and contradicts the claims of wanting weapons to feel more distinct.
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Flex gives you the same benefit using a versatile weapon two handed.
Flex gives no benefit when you wield the weapon two-handed, it only benefits the one-handed use-case, which is probably my main complaint against it (though I also think +1 average damage is a bit boring); the whole point of versatile weapons is supposed to be that you can use it either one-handed or two-handed, but with Flex there's no reason to ever use it two-handed, so now a build with Weapon Mastery (but not the ability to swap as a fighter does) is discouraged from considering versatile weapons with Flex for two-handing because it will be worse than just using it one one-handed with a shield or anything else you can do with the other hand, but for some characters they're the only option, e.g- a two-handing Halfling.
The other issue is that with the exception of battleaxe and trident (which have Topple) every other versatile weapon has Flex as its mastery, so they're still all basically the same, which again is boring, and contradicts the claims of wanting weapons to feel more distinct.
I don’t disagree that flex is boring. I also don’t disagree that flex makes using a versatile weapon two handed worse. I have said this in my previous posts. Reality is Versatile is a very situationally beneficial property. In most cases it is better to have a one handed weapon and a two handed weapon than it is to carry on versatile weapon. That doesn’t take away from the fact that flex is good for what it does. Versatile is currently bad. Versatile weapons need two masteries. One for one handed and one for two handed. Imagine a longsword with Flex one handed and topple two handed or a Battle Axe with slow one handed and topple two handed. I will also point out there are simply not enough different masteries right now.
One of my issues with the Weapon Masteries is that, of the options presented in the play-test, some seem to be of wildly different levels of power. If my understanding that you can use a Mastery Property once per an attack is correct, then both Vex, Cleave and Graze are ten times more powerful than Flex.
Flex gives you an average of one extra damage for dual wielders per an attack, and it is completely useless otherwise. Unless you have a horrible score in your main stat, than Graze will do way more damage than that, with the key difference - that really doesn't change the balance of the feature though - that it works on misses instead of hits.
Vex gives you advantage after advantage, which drastically increases your chance at a hit. Meanwhile, Cleave allows you to get an extra attack on your turn. Especially at lower levels where your ability modifier doesn't matter that much, this feature blows Flex out of the water. At higher levels, it's still better.
It would be fine if some of the more powerful weapons had less powerful masters (and vice versa), but that isn't really the case. All the weapons with Flex deal 1D10 or less damage, and that's counting the versatile property being in use but not accounting for the small amount of extra damage this mastery provides. On the other hand, a weapon that deals 1D12 damage gets Cleave.
I hope things get rebalanced at least somewhat, because there will be years for people to figure out and utilize the best combinations and any design errors when the new edition comes out
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One of my issues with the Weapon Masteries is that, of the options presented in the play-test, some seem to be of wildly different levels of power. If my understanding that you can use a Mastery Property once per an attack is correct, then both Vex, Cleave and Graze are ten times more powerful than Flex.
Flex gives you an average of one extra damage for dual wielders per an attack, and it is completely useless otherwise. Unless you have a horrible score in your main stat, than Graze will do way more damage than that, with the key difference - that really doesn't change the balance of the feature though - that it works on misses instead of hits.
Vex gives you advantage after advantage, which drastically increases your chance at a hit. Meanwhile, Cleave allows you to get an extra attack on your turn. Especially at lower levels where your ability modifier doesn't matter that much, this feature blows Flex out of the water. At higher levels, it's still better.
It would be fine if some of the more powerful weapons had less powerful masters (and vice versa), but that isn't really the case. All the weapons with Flex deal 1D10 or less damage, and that's counting the versatile property being in use but not accounting for the small amount of extra damage this mastery provides. On the other hand, a weapon that deals 1D12 damage gets Cleave.
I hope things get rebalanced at least somewhat, because there will be years for people to figure out and utilize the best combinations and any design errors when the new edition comes out
I wouldn’t say ten times more powerful. Cleave only works when two enemies are standing next to each other. Graze only works when you miss, Dnd math means you hit more than you miss. Unless you a really unlucky, but generally speaking the bounded accuracy keeps players hitting more than missing. Vex is really good and easily the best, with topple a situational runner up. Topple has the flaw of sucking for your ranged party members. Also having a weapon that does cleave as on now means your AC is not as high. You give up +2 AC to carry that heavy weapon.
One of my issues with the Weapon Masteries is that, of the options presented in the play-test, some seem to be of wildly different levels of power. If my understanding that you can use a Mastery Property once per an attack is correct, then both Vex, Cleave and Graze are ten times more powerful than Flex.
Flex gives you an average of one extra damage for dual wielders per an attack, and it is completely useless otherwise. Unless you have a horrible score in your main stat, than Graze will do way more damage than that, with the key difference - that really doesn't change the balance of the feature though - that it works on misses instead of hits.
Vex gives you advantage after advantage, which drastically increases your chance at a hit. Meanwhile, Cleave allows you to get an extra attack on your turn. Especially at lower levels where your ability modifier doesn't matter that much, this feature blows Flex out of the water. At higher levels, it's still better.
It would be fine if some of the more powerful weapons had less powerful masters (and vice versa), but that isn't really the case. All the weapons with Flex deal 1D10 or less damage, and that's counting the versatile property being in use but not accounting for the small amount of extra damage this mastery provides. On the other hand, a weapon that deals 1D12 damage gets Cleave.
I hope things get rebalanced at least somewhat, because there will be years for people to figure out and utilize the best combinations and any design errors when the new edition comes out
- Vex is definitely overpowered, since it's basically chaining advantage, I think it should be limited to once per round like cleave.
- Graze is ok, I'd say it's actually equal to Flex and it's very build dependent on which is better.
Graze is basically still inflicting 1-5 damage on a miss, if you miss 35% of the time then assume a max mod, it's an increase of +~1.75 damage per attack. Flex hitting 60% of the time is adding +~1 damage on average and 5% of the time adding +~2 damage on average, or +0.7 damage per attack; however Graze is weakened by advantage, anything that increases attack or increases the threat range of critical hits while flex adversely improves with advantage, anything that increases attack or increases the threat range of critical hits. With advantage, Graze drops to +~0.61 damage per attack while flex increases too +~0.975.
Another major point on Graze is the only weapons with this Mastery are Glaive and Greatsword, while Flex is for using Versatile weapons with one hand, which generally means something else is being done with the other hand, like holding a shield or another weapon (which itself may have a mastery, like Vex)
- Cleave can be powerful but it's situational and is also build dependent passed that.
Cleave is very situational and way better for Halberd than Great Axe (the only two weapons that have this mastery), since the limitation of the creature being within 5 foot of the original target and within your range. It is once per turn which means Halberd also gets some interesting usage with polearm master to use a reaction on top of this to get even more cleaves, it's going to be good for Barbarian and Paladin but not so great for anything else, as far as I can see. You don't get to add your ability modifier, however nothing else is blocked (unlike graze), so if you have a damage bonus like from Rage or from IDS/Radiant Strikes then the increased damage gets huge. For Paladin, if an enemy witlessly walks up behind your main target, you could cleave as a reaction on to that target and get another Divine Smite off too. For a fighter, when you get to making 3+ turns a round then flex is likely better, since it's more consistent and it works on every attack you make.
A worthwhile note, but obviously Paladin came in previous UA, I find it unlikely however that Paladin will get mastery, or will likely only get mastery via a feat or multiclassing. For Greataxe, Cleave being so situational is questionable if it beats Greatsword with Graze.
- Push
Push is actually a very powerful one, I think it's being under-estimated, against anything below huge size, (or Gargantuan if you're large), it can push a creature back 10 foot, Push is unique to Pike and that should flag up again a certain feat, Polearm Master. Just saying, Push will only generally be used for zone controlling an area quiet effectively and it has no restrictions on which attacks it can be used. Meaning you can push a creature back 10 foot, move back 15 foot and when it gets within 10 foot, push it back 10 foot again. If that creature only has 30 foot of movement, it can no longer get into range without dashing; on your next turn, another attack pushes that creature 10 foot back again. It's potentially almost as powerful as PAM+Sentinel, but not quiet.
EDIT: just to note, I am aware that fighter gets a feature at 7th level that let's them replace a mastery with another for a given weapon. So when listing certain weapons as only having certain abilities, that is not entirely true on fighter.
Flex working only once a turn does make it practically worthless. I've always house-ruled that the powerful build feature allows you to use versatile weapons at their highest damage one-handed anyway, so I'd probably sub in something else for the flex mastery.
I wouldn’t say ten times more powerful. Cleave only works when two enemies are standing next to each other. Graze only works when you miss, Dnd math means you hit more than you miss. Unless you a really unlucky, but generally speaking the bounded accuracy keeps players hitting more than missing. Vex is really good and easily the best, with topple a situational runner up. Topple has the flaw of sucking for your ranged party members. Also having a weapon that does cleave as on now means your AC is not as high. You give up +2 AC to carry that heavy weapon.
You raise a lot of valid points. I think you're correct that the power levels of certain Weapon Masteries aren't "wildly different", as I said earlier. However, I still think that a lot of fine tuning and power adjustments will be necessary to ensure that we do not have sloppy or unbalanced material released.
- Vex is definitely overpowered, since it's basically chaining advantage, I think it should be limited to once per round like cleave.
- Graze is ok, I'd say it's actually equal to Flex and it's very build dependent on which is better.
Graze is basically still inflicting 1-5 damage on a miss, if you miss 35% of the time then assume a max mod, it's an increase of +~1.75 damage per attack. Flex hitting 60% of the time is adding +~1 damage on average and 5% of the time adding +~2 damage on average, or +0.7 (huh? 60% of 1 is 0.6. Unless you use 7th+ level Fighter features, then you only deal an extra average damage of 1 per a hit.) damage per attack; however Graze is weakened by advantage, anything that increases attack or increases the threat range of critical hits while flex adversely improves with advantage, anything that increases attack or increases the threat range of critical hits. With advantage, Graze drops to +~0.61 damage per attack while flex increases too +~0.975.
Another major point on Graze is the only weapons with this Mastery are Glaive and Greatsword, while Flex is for using Versatile weapons with one hand, which generally means something else is being done with the other hand, like holding a shield or another weapon (which itself may have a mastery, like Vex)
You've raised a lot of good points, but I've snipped the post so that the only section showing are the ones I wanted to reply to.
1) Graze should be dealing a lot more than 1 damage. It deals an amount of damage equal to the ability modifier used for the attack. Typically, your highest ability is the one you primarily use to attack, so it should be a minimum of 3+ damage for the vast majority of the time.
2) The 35% chance of hitting metric is arbitrary, but we'll roll with it. I would like to point out though that an attack can't miss 35% of the time while hitting 60% of the time, so you should have probably used 55% instead of 60% for Flex for the sake of consistency.
3) See the pink text in the quotation, because I believe you may have made a minor typo/error (or perhaps I'm just wrong).
3) As your numbers show, Graze is typically better. It is unlikely that you would make an attack with Graze with advantage though, because, as you pointed out, the weapons that usually work for it don't allow you to wield another weapon and use a Mastery like Vex in the same turn. Even if you use Fighter's 7th level feature, it makes no sense to intentionally swap stuff out and intentionally pick masteries that work atrociously together.
Even if you made two attacks with Flex and only one with Graze, the latter feature still wins out if you're at a moderately high level and have a decent modifier. If your modifier is +4, which isn't that high in One D&D with all the half feats, then Graze is still slightly better than the two uses of Flex. On the other hand, if you swap things out using high level Fighter features... It gets more complicated and I am too tired to delve into that math.
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I may be wrong on some of the exact details and level of differences in terms of power. My previous post on this was a bit exaggerated, looking back on it. However, I do think the developers need to put a lot of consideration and work into ensuring that these additions are balanced.
I would like to point out though that an attack can't miss 35% of the time while hitting 60% of the time, so you should have probably used 55% instead of 60% for Flex for the sake of consistency.
The assumption is 35 percent miss, 60 percent regular hit, 5 percent crit
If you were just lumping all hits together it would 65 percent, not 55 percent
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Flex hitting 60% of the time is adding +~1 damage on average and 5% of the time adding +~2 damage on average, or +0.7 (huh? 60% of 1 is 0.6. Unless you use 7th+ level Fighter features, then you only deal an extra average damage of 1 per a hit.)
It's clearly ( 1 * 0.6) + ( 2 * 0.05 ) which is ~0.7. I think you're missing the very obvious part about how a critical adds +~2 damage in there, which occurs 5% of the time.
You've raised a lot of good points, but I've snipped the post so that the only section showing are the ones I wanted to reply to.
1) Graze should be dealing a lot more than 1 damage. It deals an amount of damage equal to the ability modifier used for the attack. Typically, your highest ability is the one you primarily use to attack, so it should be a minimum of 3+ damage for the vast majority of the time.
2) The 35% chance of hitting metric is arbitrary, but we'll roll with it. I would like to point out though that an attack can't miss 35% of the time while hitting 60% of the time, so you should have probably used 55% instead of 60% for Flex for the sake of consistency.
3) See the pink text in the quotation, because I believe you may have made a minor typo/error (or perhaps I'm just wrong).
3) As your numbers show, Graze is typically better. It is unlikely that you would make an attack with Graze with advantage though, because, as you pointed out, the weapons that usually work for it don't allow you to wield another weapon and use a Mastery like Vex in the same turn. Even if you use Fighter's 7th level feature, it makes no sense to intentionally swap stuff out and intentionally pick masteries that work atrociously together.
Even if you made two attacks with Flex and only one with Graze, the latter feature still wins out if you're at a moderately high level and have a decent modifier. If your modifier is +4, which isn't that high in One D&D with all the half feats, then Graze is still slightly better than the two uses of Flex. On the other hand, if you swap things out using high level Fighter features... It gets more complicated and I am too tired to delve into that math.
---
I may be wrong on some of the exact details and level of differences in terms of power. My previous post on this was a bit exaggerated, looking back on it. However, I do think the developers need to put a lot of consideration and work into ensuring that these additions are balanced.
1. Graze only works when you miss, if you miss 35% of the time then its MOD*0.35 per attack. So with a Max MOD (5) you'd get 5 * 0.35 which is 1.75.
2. 35% is "arbitrary" but it's around the area that Bounded Accuracy is generally aiming for, which is why it is one of the most commonly used numbers for these types of equations as it's a rather middling number. It doesn't mean it'll always be true, nobody is going to figure out every result from a 5% chance to a 95% chance to hit on attack roll.
3. I think you've massively misunderstood the actual mathematics here, Graze wins on normal attacks but Flex easily wins in many situations, such as having advantage. Graze requires a 2-handed weapon which means it additionally has a bigger cost than Flex, where Flex gives you the same damage as a polearm but with a one-handed versatile weapon. Flex additionally works with critical hits, Graze is mostly underwhelming.
Basically if you have any method of getting advantage, Flex is definitely better, if you have any method of increasing the amount of critical hits you get, Flex gets stronger or If you have anything that increases your chance to hit on attack rolls (i.e. Bless Spell), Flex gets better. There are numerous situations that benefit Flex, the only situation that benefits Graze are situations that you as a player want to avoid to begin with since a normal attack will still do more damage than Graze does.
Overall it's not really worth worrying about which is better in a build anyway, as Flex and Graze are obviously aiming at two very different types of build. Flex is going to be usable by Dual Wielders (with feat) and Shield users, people using their other hand for something else while Graze is for 2-handed weapons, where missing attacks can be more of a painful experience.
Sorry if I already said this (long day). My feedback to form for webmastery was:
1- Just have Cleave and Graze generate a Bonus Action attack. More straight forward. Fighters and Barbarians would finally have something to do with their bonus actions (and it satisfies the Barbarian's extension of rage).
2- Get rid of Nick, and just replace it with Vex.
3- Allow any Bludgeoning weapon to pick up Sap. So the pre-requisite becomes "Bludgeoning Weapon _OR_ no other properties".
4- Add one that pole arms (including Spear and Quarterstaff) can use to extend their reach by 5'
(and I also said to explicitly add Spear and Quarterstaff back to Pole Arm Master)
Oh, and: 5- Make a single weapon mastery type available via a Fighting Style (for Paladins and Rangers). Unlike the Weapon Mastery Feat, it will not boost a stat. But this means Paladins and Rangers don't have to give up one of their regular feats to get a Weapon Mastery.
Why on earth would you make such a bad argument? Why do I have to compare flex to two handed weapons 2d6 when it’s literally on a versatile weapon which gives 1d10 when used in two hands? Why do you believe no sane person would use the versatile property 2 handed when there are plenty of circumstances to do it? I’ll admit there are aren’t many good reasons, but definitely some sane reasons:
Sorry to be the first to inform you that not every player is a min/max optimizer. My arguments are based on the rules and functionality of the versatile property. If you disdain the property that’s okay. But for you to act like my argument is flawed is ridiculous. Flex is actually superior to the versatile property. It supplants the property making weapons with this mastery better than they were without it. Flex is better than push and slow. It is more consistently needed. There is no situation were additional damage isn’t needed. Is it boring? Yes. Is it bad? No
You can compare it to 2-handed fighting all you want, and you can say how great a shield is, and you can say how great it could be with Nick, but the fact of the matter is that none of those things are the effects of Flex. Flex gives you one extra damage each hit.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
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Flex gives you the same benefit using a versatile weapon two handed. I’m not just saying it. It is literally what it does. It is literally designed only for versatile weapons. No one sane denies how great a +2 AC from a shield is in the bounded accuracy system of current DND. Also your claim of it’s just 1 damage means nothing to me. It’s one damage every hit. Fighters hit a lot. I’ve had plenty of monsters survive with 1-5 damage and got to do one more round of damage to the party. Additionally like I pointed out in my original post it works with dueling which adds another +2 to the damage. Wait, that combo makes it as good as the d12 weapon which is questionable if you like 1d12 or 2d6. So a fighter can have 18 AC with chain mail and shield and still deal 1d10+2+Str at level 1. How is that not good. How is a 16 AC dealing 2d6+Str better?
The logical thing to compare it against are other one handed masteries. Flex does 1 damage. Or you could do Topple, vex, or sap. I don't think it stacks up against those, not even sap which is the weakest option of the 3. Rolling down to d6 weapons so its 2 damage, would add in nick which is giving up a shield for damage without a shield. Depending on goals that might be a fair trade. Tank, vs damage is the choice with two handed vs shield and weapon, where nick falls down is its property is to basically be a two handed weapon in damage but without all the good two handed properties. So like its better than nick maybe in that a two hander is better than two weapon(for a fighter maybe not as they will add vex later on which is broken)
Comparing 18 AC and 1d10+2+Str to 16 AC and 2d6+Str isn't logical. You should instead be comparing it to 16 AC and 2d6 + Str + rerolling 1s and 2s + dealing Str damage on a miss, or 17 AC and 2d6 + Str + a decent chance to knock prone.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
But flex works every time, while the others, except for vex, really, are situational. Topple is good, unless there’s a lot of ranged people in your party and now they’ve got disadvantage, and of course, it might not work. Sap is good, unless your attacking a caster who forces saving throws instead of making attack rolls.
Vex, well vex is really way too good. And putting it on the rapier, the default weapon for dex builds, actually seems like it’s taking choices away because now who would not choose a rapier.
But anyway, Flex is boring, but doing a little more damage is always a good choice in every situation.
I’m thinking of it like taking an asi instead of a feat. It’s not as flashy, but it’s reliable and sometimes you just want a simple, reliable passive boost.
I just hope the survey lets us rate them individually.
Topple and vex are clearly the best in the game, notice you left push and slow off your list. It’s as good if not better than those.
Push is only on two handed weapons or the heavy crossbow, slow is mostly ranged/thrown weapon and reach weapons the one handed is whip which is d4. If there was a one handed d8 push at default without needing a fighters swap ability I'd put that above flex, slow I think only really works with ranged weapons slowing someone in melee with you seems kind of pointless in most cases. Javelin sort of works but I'm having a hard time envisioning a pile of javelins build. A simple weapon, weapon and shield with weapon mastery class feature build is kind of rare. Shoving people with all the various environmental effects from nature and spells will almost always be better than flex.
You’re right that is a more fair and logically comparison. I’ll take 18 AC with 1d10+2+Str over topple most days. Knocking down opponents is great for your melee teammates but horrible for you ranged teammates. So that depends on party composition and turn order. You get the same bonus from flanking. So the only real question is do you want more a little more damage or a more defense. Personally I’m taking the AC, not getting hit at low levels is huge for survivability. Graze is both assume and sucks at the same time. If you are rolling hot and hitting it does nothing, if you a rolling cold it’s the greatest mastery ever. So my point still stands even when comparing Flex to things it wasn’t designed to stand against. The reality is what I said before is still true. Versatile weapons should have two properties, one for when it’s used one handed and another for when it is used two handed.
I don’t put push above flex. Consistent damage over situational forced movement. There aren’t tons of natural hazards. Vex is clearly the best and topple the second best depending on party composition. If you have archers or spell attackers in your party they will start hating you if you spam topple to give yourself advantage.
Flex gives no benefit when you wield the weapon two-handed, it only benefits the one-handed use-case, which is probably my main complaint against it (though I also think +1 average damage is a bit boring); the whole point of versatile weapons is supposed to be that you can use it either one-handed or two-handed, but with Flex there's no reason to ever use it two-handed, so now a build with Weapon Mastery (but not the ability to swap as a fighter does) is discouraged from considering versatile weapons with Flex for two-handing because it will be worse than just using it one one-handed with a shield or anything else you can do with the other hand, but for some characters they're the only option, e.g- a two-handing Halfling.
The other issue is that with the exception of battleaxe and trident (which have Topple) every other versatile weapon has Flex as its mastery, so they're still all basically the same, which again is boring, and contradicts the claims of wanting weapons to feel more distinct.
It's available to any versatile weapon with the Fighter's Mastery swapping feature.
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I don’t disagree that flex is boring. I also don’t disagree that flex makes using a versatile weapon two handed worse. I have said this in my previous posts. Reality is Versatile is a very situationally beneficial property. In most cases it is better to have a one handed weapon and a two handed weapon than it is to carry on versatile weapon. That doesn’t take away from the fact that flex is good for what it does. Versatile is currently bad. Versatile weapons need two masteries. One for one handed and one for two handed. Imagine a longsword with Flex one handed and topple two handed or a Battle Axe with slow one handed and topple two handed. I will also point out there are simply not enough different masteries right now.
One of my issues with the Weapon Masteries is that, of the options presented in the play-test, some seem to be of wildly different levels of power. If my understanding that you can use a Mastery Property once per an attack is correct, then both Vex, Cleave and Graze are ten times more powerful than Flex.
Flex gives you an average of one extra damage for dual wielders per an attack, and it is completely useless otherwise. Unless you have a horrible score in your main stat, than Graze will do way more damage than that, with the key difference - that really doesn't change the balance of the feature though - that it works on misses instead of hits.
Vex gives you advantage after advantage, which drastically increases your chance at a hit. Meanwhile, Cleave allows you to get an extra attack on your turn. Especially at lower levels where your ability modifier doesn't matter that much, this feature blows Flex out of the water. At higher levels, it's still better.
It would be fine if some of the more powerful weapons had less powerful masters (and vice versa), but that isn't really the case. All the weapons with Flex deal 1D10 or less damage, and that's counting the versatile property being in use but not accounting for the small amount of extra damage this mastery provides. On the other hand, a weapon that deals 1D12 damage gets Cleave.
I hope things get rebalanced at least somewhat, because there will be years for people to figure out and utilize the best combinations and any design errors when the new edition comes out
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HERE.I wouldn’t say ten times more powerful. Cleave only works when two enemies are standing next to each other. Graze only works when you miss, Dnd math means you hit more than you miss. Unless you a really unlucky, but generally speaking the bounded accuracy keeps players hitting more than missing. Vex is really good and easily the best, with topple a situational runner up. Topple has the flaw of sucking for your ranged party members.
Also having a weapon that does cleave as on now means your AC is not as high. You give up +2 AC to carry that heavy weapon.
- Vex is definitely overpowered, since it's basically chaining advantage, I think it should be limited to once per round like cleave.
- Graze is ok, I'd say it's actually equal to Flex and it's very build dependent on which is better.
Graze is basically still inflicting 1-5 damage on a miss, if you miss 35% of the time then assume a max mod, it's an increase of +~1.75 damage per attack. Flex hitting 60% of the time is adding +~1 damage on average and 5% of the time adding +~2 damage on average, or +0.7 damage per attack; however Graze is weakened by advantage, anything that increases attack or increases the threat range of critical hits while flex adversely improves with advantage, anything that increases attack or increases the threat range of critical hits. With advantage, Graze drops to +~0.61 damage per attack while flex increases too +~0.975.
Another major point on Graze is the only weapons with this Mastery are Glaive and Greatsword, while Flex is for using Versatile weapons with one hand, which generally means something else is being done with the other hand, like holding a shield or another weapon (which itself may have a mastery, like Vex)
- Cleave can be powerful but it's situational and is also build dependent passed that.
Cleave is very situational and way better for Halberd than Great Axe (the only two weapons that have this mastery), since the limitation of the creature being within 5 foot of the original target and within your range. It is once per turn which means Halberd also gets some interesting usage with polearm master to use a reaction on top of this to get even more cleaves, it's going to be good for Barbarian and Paladin but not so great for anything else, as far as I can see. You don't get to add your ability modifier, however nothing else is blocked (unlike graze), so if you have a damage bonus like from Rage or from IDS/Radiant Strikes then the increased damage gets huge. For Paladin, if an enemy witlessly walks up behind your main target, you could cleave as a reaction on to that target and get another Divine Smite off too. For a fighter, when you get to making 3+ turns a round then flex is likely better, since it's more consistent and it works on every attack you make.
A worthwhile note, but obviously Paladin came in previous UA, I find it unlikely however that Paladin will get mastery, or will likely only get mastery via a feat or multiclassing. For Greataxe, Cleave being so situational is questionable if it beats Greatsword with Graze.
- Push
Push is actually a very powerful one, I think it's being under-estimated, against anything below huge size, (or Gargantuan if you're large), it can push a creature back 10 foot, Push is unique to Pike and that should flag up again a certain feat, Polearm Master. Just saying, Push will only generally be used for zone controlling an area quiet effectively and it has no restrictions on which attacks it can be used. Meaning you can push a creature back 10 foot, move back 15 foot and when it gets within 10 foot, push it back 10 foot again. If that creature only has 30 foot of movement, it can no longer get into range without dashing; on your next turn, another attack pushes that creature 10 foot back again. It's potentially almost as powerful as PAM+Sentinel, but not quiet.
EDIT: just to note, I am aware that fighter gets a feature at 7th level that let's them replace a mastery with another for a given weapon. So when listing certain weapons as only having certain abilities, that is not entirely true on fighter.
Flex working only once a turn does make it practically worthless. I've always house-ruled that the powerful build feature allows you to use versatile weapons at their highest damage one-handed anyway, so I'd probably sub in something else for the flex mastery.
You raise a lot of valid points. I think you're correct that the power levels of certain Weapon Masteries aren't "wildly different", as I said earlier. However, I still think that a lot of fine tuning and power adjustments will be necessary to ensure that we do not have sloppy or unbalanced material released.
You've raised a lot of good points, but I've snipped the post so that the only section showing are the ones I wanted to reply to.
1) Graze should be dealing a lot more than 1 damage. It deals an amount of damage equal to the ability modifier used for the attack. Typically, your highest ability is the one you primarily use to attack, so it should be a minimum of 3+ damage for the vast majority of the time.
2) The 35% chance of hitting metric is arbitrary, but we'll roll with it.
I would like to point out though that an attack can't miss 35% of the time while hitting 60% of the time, so you should have probably used 55% instead of 60% for Flex for the sake of consistency.3) See the pink text in the quotation, because I believe you may have made a minor typo/error (or perhaps I'm just wrong).
3) As your numbers show, Graze is typically better. It is unlikely that you would make an attack with Graze with advantage though, because, as you pointed out, the weapons that usually work for it don't allow you to wield another weapon and use a Mastery like Vex in the same turn. Even if you use Fighter's 7th level feature, it makes no sense to intentionally swap stuff out and intentionally pick masteries that work atrociously together.
Even if you made two attacks with Flex and only one with Graze, the latter feature still wins out if you're at a moderately high level and have a decent modifier. If your modifier is +4, which isn't that high in One D&D with all the half feats, then Graze is still slightly better than the two uses of Flex. On the other hand, if you swap things out using high level Fighter features... It gets more complicated and I am too tired to delve into that math.
---
I may be wrong on some of the exact details and level of differences in terms of power. My previous post on this was a bit exaggerated, looking back on it. However, I do think the developers need to put a lot of consideration and work into ensuring that these additions are balanced.
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HERE.The assumption is 35 percent miss, 60 percent regular hit, 5 percent crit
If you were just lumping all hits together it would 65 percent, not 55 percent
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It's clearly ( 1 * 0.6) + ( 2 * 0.05 ) which is ~0.7. I think you're missing the very obvious part about how a critical adds +~2 damage in there, which occurs 5% of the time.
1. Graze only works when you miss, if you miss 35% of the time then its MOD*0.35 per attack. So with a Max MOD (5) you'd get 5 * 0.35 which is 1.75.
2. 35% is "arbitrary" but it's around the area that Bounded Accuracy is generally aiming for, which is why it is one of the most commonly used numbers for these types of equations as it's a rather middling number. It doesn't mean it'll always be true, nobody is going to figure out every result from a 5% chance to a 95% chance to hit on attack roll.
3. I think you've massively misunderstood the actual mathematics here, Graze wins on normal attacks but Flex easily wins in many situations, such as having advantage. Graze requires a 2-handed weapon which means it additionally has a bigger cost than Flex, where Flex gives you the same damage as a polearm but with a one-handed versatile weapon. Flex additionally works with critical hits, Graze is mostly underwhelming.
Basically if you have any method of getting advantage, Flex is definitely better, if you have any method of increasing the amount of critical hits you get, Flex gets stronger or If you have anything that increases your chance to hit on attack rolls (i.e. Bless Spell), Flex gets better. There are numerous situations that benefit Flex, the only situation that benefits Graze are situations that you as a player want to avoid to begin with since a normal attack will still do more damage than Graze does.
Overall it's not really worth worrying about which is better in a build anyway, as Flex and Graze are obviously aiming at two very different types of build. Flex is going to be usable by Dual Wielders (with feat) and Shield users, people using their other hand for something else while Graze is for 2-handed weapons, where missing attacks can be more of a painful experience.
Sorry if I already said this (long day). My feedback to form for webmastery was:
1- Just have Cleave and Graze generate a Bonus Action attack. More straight forward. Fighters and Barbarians would finally have something to do with their bonus actions (and it satisfies the Barbarian's extension of rage).
2- Get rid of Nick, and just replace it with Vex.
3- Allow any Bludgeoning weapon to pick up Sap. So the pre-requisite becomes "Bludgeoning Weapon _OR_ no other properties".
4- Add one that pole arms (including Spear and Quarterstaff) can use to extend their reach by 5'
(and I also said to explicitly add Spear and Quarterstaff back to Pole Arm Master)
Oh, and:
5- Make a single weapon mastery type available via a Fighting Style (for Paladins and Rangers). Unlike the Weapon Mastery Feat, it will not boost a stat. But this means Paladins and Rangers don't have to give up one of their regular feats to get a Weapon Mastery.