It's not penalizing, it's balancing, you can't have a character that does everything and Moon Druid very much had that issue. The cost isn't for transforming into animals via wild shape, the cost is for specializing into shape shifting with wild shape. If you want wild shape to be a viable main tactic then you shouldn't also have full spellcaster progression too. Full spellcaster progression is still the most powerful thing in the game for a class to have.
I think this is a good argument for more of Moon Druid's buffs to wildshape to be fuelled by spell slots; this could allow it to scale up to still be strong at higher levels, but at the cost of sacrificing your spellcasting to do so.
If we assume they'll revert wildshape to be a but more like 5e but probably still template based, i.e- give the templates their own hit-points based on size so you can once again be knocked out of Tiny form easily, but more combat appropriate forms can give you a bit of extra durability.
The issue for Moon Druid will be how to scale up that durability, because if they just do for free as a sub-class feature we'll be right back to the same problems as before. However, if their basic feature is wildshaping as a bonus action (already a big boost), then they could also add durability by spending a spell slot when you transform in order to add more hit-points to the new form. When they get elemental form it might add a modest boost of elemental damage, increased by any spell slot you spend to transform, later on they may gain the ability to spend slots while transformed to heal (to keep the form going longer)?
The idea being that a viable combat beast Moon Druid might be more equivalent to a half caster in practice, due to the slots they'll be spending to make the form strong enough to compete as a front-liner?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It's not penalizing, it's balancing, you can't have a character that does everything and Moon Druid very much had that issue. The cost isn't for transforming into animals via wild shape, the cost is for specializing into shape shifting with wild shape. If you want wild shape to be a viable main tactic then you shouldn't also have full spellcaster progression too. Full spellcaster progression is still the most powerful thing in the game for a class to have.
I think this is a good argument for more of Moon Druid's buffs to wildshape to be fuelled by spell slots; this could allow it to scale up to still be strong at higher levels, but at the cost of sacrificing your spellcasting to do so.
If we assume they'll revert wildshape to be a but more like 5e but probably still template based, i.e- give the templates their own hit-points based on size so you can once again be knocked out of Tiny form easily, but more combat appropriate forms can give you a bit of extra durability.
The issue for Moon Druid will be how to scale up that durability, because if they just do for free as a sub-class feature we'll be right back to the same problems as before. However, if their basic feature is wildshaping as a bonus action (already a big boost), then they could also add durability by spending a spell slot when you transform in order to add more hit-points to the new form. When they get elemental form it might add a modest boost of elemental damage, increased by any spell slot you spend to transform, later on they may gain the ability to spend slots while transformed to heal (to keep the form going longer)?
The idea being that a viable combat beast Moon Druid might be more equivalent to a half caster in practice, due to the slots they'll be spending to make the form strong enough to compete as a front-liner?
Making actions and abilities from wild shape use spell slots is another potential solution for circle of the moon, tho it'd really need to be good enough to be demanding the top level slots; making it affect AC and give Temp HP (while wild shaped) would probably be the obvious go too there. So AC=10+WIS+Spell slot and temp HP=Spell slot*5. It'd still need more to use a few more spell slots, making a few of those features around elemental forms also require spell slots to fuel.
You know, there used to be a clean solution for when you wanted casters to have access to a certain option but not force them to have it. It was called... Spells.
If only there was already a spell for turning yourself into an animal. Wait, there is? But it can target others! Well, what if it was split up into Wild Shape (Primal) and Baleful Polymorph (Arcane)?
It's not penalizing, it's balancing, you can't have a character that does everything and Moon Druid very much had that issue. The cost isn't for transforming into animals via wild shape, the cost is for specializing into shape shifting with wild shape. If you want wild shape to be a viable main tactic then you shouldn't also have full spellcaster progression too. Full spellcaster progression is still the most powerful thing in the game for a class to have.
I think this is a good argument for more of Moon Druid's buffs to wildshape to be fuelled by spell slots; this could allow it to scale up to still be strong at higher levels, but at the cost of sacrificing your spellcasting to do so.
If we assume they'll revert wildshape to be a but more like 5e but probably still template based, i.e- give the templates their own hit-points based on size so you can once again be knocked out of Tiny form easily, but more combat appropriate forms can give you a bit of extra durability.
The issue for Moon Druid will be how to scale up that durability, because if they just do for free as a sub-class feature we'll be right back to the same problems as before. However, if their basic feature is wildshaping as a bonus action (already a big boost), then they could also add durability by spending a spell slot when you transform in order to add more hit-points to the new form. When they get elemental form it might add a modest boost of elemental damage, increased by any spell slot you spend to transform, later on they may gain the ability to spend slots while transformed to heal (to keep the form going longer)?
The idea being that a viable combat beast Moon Druid might be more equivalent to a half caster in practice, due to the slots they'll be spending to make the form strong enough to compete as a front-liner?
If it's going to cost spellslots to WS then the form has to compete with other spells in terms of power. We already have spells that turn a caster into a martial : Tenser's Transformation, and ones that turn you into animals: Polymorph & Shapechange. So any new WS spell must be competitive with those to be worth using -> i.e. MORE powerful than the current Moon Druid forms. If Moon druid is to play like a half-caster they need a significant boost to the damage of their WS to keep up with other half-casters and to their AC for the same reason or they need to keep their massively expanded hit point pools.
We have many halfcasters to compare to now:
Hunter Ranger 5th level DPR = 2*(1d8+DEX+1d6)+1d8, Ranged or Melee + Weapon Mastery AC ~16, HP = 44 Devotion Paladin 5th level DPR = 2*(1d10+STR)+2d8 + 1d4+STR, Melee, AC ~18, HP = 44 Warlock 5th level DPR = 2*(1d10+CHA)+2d6, Ranged, AC ~ 18 (+Shield), HP = 38 WS Moon Druid 5th level DPR = 2*(1d8+WIS), AC 10+WIS, Melee, HP = 38
So for the cost of 2x 3rd level spells + 2x 2nd level spell, the Moon Druid needs to gain at minimum 2d6 DPR + 2 AC and ~20 HP every time they WS.
So... use the Beast of the Land template as a 2nd level spell that doesn't require concentration but with AC = 10+Wis+Proficiency bonus, where you gain temporary hp = 5* the level of the spell and that doesn't prevent you from casting spells while in WS allowing them to combo it with Hunter's Mark or all the other fun ranger spells, and give them the Paladin Smite spells as always prepared bonus subclass spells. Voila you have a WSing half-caster Moon Druid that plays like a hybrid of Ranger & Paladin but as an animal.
Having WS cost spell slots is probably the best option if WS is left as a druid feature (if WS should mean half-caster, change it to a ranger subclass. TBH, you could do both; the ranger gets the ability to cast the WS spell at level/2 rounded up).
A lazy option that is somewhat appealing to me is:
Errata all Tasha's summons to have 1 + level/3 attacks (instead of level/2). This cleans up some scaling problems with them.
Each summon has an equivalent Become spell with identical stats, but transforms the caster, and does not require concentration.
Druids get all the become spells that they have summon spells for.
No idea why you think this means anything regarding limiting rangers or nerfing Clerics, it doesn't. Channel Divinity is a very limited action that will get used maybe twice a day, rarely more, wild shape is an ability that can be kept up for most of an adventuring day/most combats, these are not equal comparisons.
I'm sorry, it was probably due to the translator, I meant to refer to blurring the LIMITS between druia and ranger.
It's not penalizing, it's balancing, you can't have a character that does everything and Moon Druid very much had that issue. The cost isn't for transforming into animals via wild shape, the cost is for specializing into shape shifting with wild shape. If you want wild shape to be a viable main tactic then you shouldn't also have full spellcaster progression too. Full spellcaster progression is still the most powerful thing in the game for a class to have.
I think this is a good argument for more of Moon Druid's buffs to wildshape to be fuelled by spell slots; this could allow it to scale up to still be strong at higher levels, but at the cost of sacrificing your spellcasting to do so.
If we assume they'll revert wildshape to be a but more like 5e but probably still template based, i.e- give the templates their own hit-points based on size so you can once again be knocked out of Tiny form easily, but more combat appropriate forms can give you a bit of extra durability.
The issue for Moon Druid will be how to scale up that durability, because if they just do for free as a sub-class feature we'll be right back to the same problems as before. However, if their basic feature is wildshaping as a bonus action (already a big boost), then they could also add durability by spending a spell slot when you transform in order to add more hit-points to the new form. When they get elemental form it might add a modest boost of elemental damage, increased by any spell slot you spend to transform, later on they may gain the ability to spend slots while transformed to heal (to keep the form going longer)?
The idea being that a viable combat beast Moon Druid might be more equivalent to a half caster in practice, due to the slots they'll be spending to make the form strong enough to compete as a front-liner?
That if I see it as an option, that some characteristics of the wildshape only of the circle of the moon, optional but worth it so that they usually spend spaces in it, possibly they do not spend the highest levels but they do drain several.
Wait how did this go from arguing that “Druids need features to support them being nature mages,” to arguing “moon druids can do everything and need to be balanced.” If that was true that means that every other Druid is already a capable nature mage and needs nothing more.
Wait how did this go from arguing that “Druids need features to support them being nature mages,” to arguing “moon druids can do everything and need to be balanced.” If that was true that means that every other Druid is already a capable nature mage and needs nothing more.
Nah, it's perfectly possible for both to be true. Wild Shape in 5e is an incredible power (WS in One D&D is...not).
Wait how did this go from arguing that “Druids need features to support them being nature mages,” to arguing “moon druids can do everything and need to be balanced.” If that was true that means that every other Druid is already a capable nature mage and needs nothing more.
Nah, it's perfectly possible for both to be true. Wild Shape in 5e is an incredible power (WS in One D&D is...not).
It’s contradictory. If the Moon Druid is a functioning nature mage then all druids are because the other subclasses actually have more to help them when it comes to casting. Land has additional spells and natural recovery, Wildfire has additional spells that aren’t concentration and a summoned creature, Stars has a guiding bolt, weal or woe, and start form that have abilities that scale with Spellcasting modifier, and Shepard has summons. Arguing that Moon is effective at everything, while false, highlights that the other subclasses must be fine as nature casters already.
It’s contradictory. If the Moon Druid is a functioning nature mage then all druids are because the other subclasses actually have more to help them when it comes to casting. Land has additional spells and natural recovery, Wildfire has additional spells that aren’t concentration and a summoned creature, Stars has a guiding bolt, weal or woe, and start form that have abilities that scale with Spellcasting modifier, and Shepard has summons. Arguing that Moon is effective at everything, while false, highlights that the other subclasses must be fine as nature casters already.
It's not contradictory; simply having the Spellcasting feature with full-caster slot progression makes every Druid a capable mage in theory (see Agilemind's post about why it's different in practice). You could ignore your sub-class features entirely and with the right mix of spells (which you can change on long rest) can still be plenty useful to the party. That sub-classes can boost this further doesn't change that the baseline casting ability is already pretty good.
I think the point is that Moon Druid gains features that are entirely separate from the spellcasting, and no matter how much they use these they still have that same baseline spellcasting ability on top, so even if you burn your combat wildshapes, you still have a full complement of spell slots to fall back to. Meanwhile a Druid focusing on being a nature mage will have already spent some of these, so in that respect a Moon Druid is the "better" nature mage because they may not have spent any of their spellcasting resources by the time they finally need to.
Personally I don't want to see Moon Druid become weak; I like the idea of a Druid who can hold their own on the front-line if that's what they want to do (or what their party needs), at least in terms of dishing out some damage and taking a fair bit in return (Barbarians and Fighters should still have the edge overall). But for that to remain strong throughout every tier of play it needs to come at an additional cost so it remains balanced.
I'm also an advocate of Druids getting a bit of built-in nature mage potential as an alternative to wild-shaping, and this would also help (because it's something a wildshaping Moon Druid won't be using). This shouldn't necessarily make them more powerful as such, just help with resource use, make it easier to juggle the concentration heavy Primal list etc.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Wait how did this go from arguing that “Druids need features to support them being nature mages,” to arguing “moon druids can do everything and need to be balanced.” If that was true that means that every other Druid is already a capable nature mage and needs nothing more.
Nah, it's perfectly possible for both to be true. Wild Shape in 5e is an incredible power (WS in One D&D is...not).
It’s contradictory. If the Moon Druid is a functioning nature mage then all druids are because the other subclasses actually have more to help them when it comes to casting. Land has additional spells and natural recovery, Wildfire has additional spells that aren’t concentration and a summoned creature, Stars has a guiding bolt, weal or woe, and start form that have abilities that scale with Spellcasting modifier, and Shepard has summons. Arguing that Moon is effective at everything, while false, highlights that the other subclasses must be fine as nature casters already.
Starry Druid does work as a nature mage for most levels, but the others not so much because of three key problems:
(1) druid spells : druid damage dealing spells are terrible compared to other casters, their battlefield control is significantly worse than Arcane casters, while their healing is about the same as a cleric if that's the spells they so choose. This means most of the caster-druids end up playing primarily as healers not as mages in combat - note that Shepherd, Wildfire, and Dreams all get healing buffs as their best or 2nd best subclass feature.
(2) druid cantrips : druids get the WORST selection of combat cantrips of any caster, which combined with:
(3) almost every decent druid spell requires concentration, means that once you as a druid have cast your concentration spell (80% of the time conjure animals) you have very little worth doing and thus as in (1) end up becoming just a healer b/c all your other options suck.
Wait how did this go from arguing that “Druids need features to support them being nature mages,” to arguing “moon druids can do everything and need to be balanced.” If that was true that means that every other Druid is already a capable nature mage and needs nothing more.
Nah, it's perfectly possible for both to be true. Wild Shape in 5e is an incredible power (WS in One D&D is...not).
It’s contradictory. If the Moon Druid is a functioning nature mage then all druids are because the other subclasses actually have more to help them when it comes to casting. Land has additional spells and natural recovery, Wildfire has additional spells that aren’t concentration and a summoned creature, Stars has a guiding bolt, weal or woe, and start form that have abilities that scale with Spellcasting modifier, and Shepard has summons. Arguing that Moon is effective at everything, while false, highlights that the other subclasses must be fine as nature casters already.
Well, I don't see it as contradictory, I'm not saying that all the wildshap enhancements exclusive to the circle of the moon can only be used by spending spell slots, in fact it should be useful in combat without spending it, but not that much, and that they give you the chance to improve it even more using your magical energy:
Additional increase to your wild armor depending on the slot used: It's like casting a version of wild version mage armor.
Initial extra life, heal a lot of damage received (This already came in 5e, and in 1d&d it was deformed so that you can cast healing spells.) or a small constant regeneration depending on the slots used: It's like using false life, healing wounds or similar on you himself being an animal.
Other: Increased damage or size, temporary increase in the brute force of your transformation, possibility of a 3rd attack with multiple attack, resistance or additional immunities, improvements to not lose concentration, advantages to knock down or grab, etc.
It could also NOT directly buff wildshape, at best giving wilshape the ability to heal its wounds and maintain concentration more easily using spell slots, but mainly that subclass has the option of transmitting its buffs wildshape to its animal summons (Attack elemental, elemental resistance, pack tactics, multiple attacks, armor upgrade, etc), that broadcast only lasts as many minutes or turns as spell slot levels spent, and you'll be in a hurry to take advantage of it because it quickly drains your magic. Thus, he would reinforce his wild side by living with others, considered the leader of the pack.
Not all these optional and additional improvements must necessarily be from spending spell slots, they can also be from spending additional uses of the nature channel. The point is to give them a chance to power it up even more, and momentarily compete with the half-spellcasting melee fighters, before losing their form and returning to the rear or recasting Wildshape.
And it should be optional, but clearly attractive so that it's a useful option to spend it on that instead of using it on the rear, you boost your subclass!
(1) druid spells : druid damage dealing spells are terrible compared to other casters, their battlefield control is significantly worse than Arcane casters
Uh... perhaps you have a different definition of battlefield control than I do. I consider that shaping the field, which generally means zoning effects.
Level 1: arcane casters get grease, druids get entangle.
It's not contradictory; simply having the Spellcasting feature with full-caster slot progression makes every Druid a capable mage in theory (see Agilemind's post about why it's different in practice). You could ignore your sub-class features entirely and with the right mix of spells (which you can change on long rest) can still be plenty useful to the party. That sub-classes can boost this further doesn't change that the baseline casting ability is already pretty good.
I think the point is that Moon Druid gains features that are entirely separate from the spellcasting, and no matter how much they use these they still have that same baseline spellcasting ability on top, so even if you burn your combat wildshapes, you still have a full complement of spell slots to fall back to. Meanwhile a Druid focusing on being a nature mage will have already spent some of these, so in that respect a Moon Druid is the "better" nature mage because they may not have spent any of their spellcasting resources by the time they finally need to.
Personally I don't want to see Moon Druid become weak; I like the idea of a Druid who can hold their own on the front-line if that's what they want to do (or what their party needs), at least in terms of dishing out some damage and taking a fair bit in return (Barbarians and Fighters should still have the edge overall). But for that to remain strong throughout every tier of play it needs to come at an additional cost so it remains balanced.
I'm also an advocate of Druids getting a bit of built-in nature mage potential as an alternative to wild-shaping, and this would also help (because it's something a wildshaping Moon Druid won't be using). This shouldn't necessarily make them more powerful as such, just help with resource use, make it easier to juggle the concentration heavy Primal list etc.
This is false because the number one thing that druids can’t do while in Wild Shape, until much later in the game, is cast spells. Even if they can still concentrate on a spell if they lose concentration they would have to drop their Wild shape form to cast another spell. Also let’s be honest. At high levels of play the beast they can turn into don’t give them the greatest melee damage. They get to become massive meat shields not damage dealers. At level 20 I will say they are Gods because they have infinite hp, but still don’t have great damage for that level of play.
Starry Druid does work as a nature mage for most levels, but the others not so much because of three key problems:
(1) druid spells : druid damage dealing spells are terrible compared to other casters, their battlefield control is significantly worse than Arcane casters, while their healing is about the same as a cleric if that's the spells they so choose. This means most of the caster-druids end up playing primarily as healers not as mages in combat - note that Shepherd, Wildfire, and Dreams all get healing buffs as their best or 2nd best subclass feature.
(2) druid cantrips : druids get the WORST selection of combat cantrips of any caster, which combined with:
(3) almost every decent druid spell requires concentration, means that once you as a druid have cast your concentration spell (80% of the time conjure animals) you have very little worth doing and thus as in (1) end up becoming just a healer b/c all your other options suck.
I know people don’t like circle of the land, but it literally give you non concentration spells from the wizards spell list. I would argue that is truly your nature mage build.
(1) I could accept that their damage dealing spells were terrible compared to other casters if we only had the 2014 phb. All druids have access to blight, erupting earth, wither and bloom, fire storm, ice storm, and ice knife. Circle of land gets access to cone of cold, or lightning bolt. Circle of stars gets guiding bolt.
(2)Druid cantrips are weak compared to fire bolt and toll the dead, but those are some of the best damage cantrips in the game other than eldritch blast. Cantrips are honestly too strong in this game and add to the martial caster parity, but that’s another debate.
(3)None of the damage dealing spells I named in (1) are concentration. There is plenty to do. Also since all 5e druids can Wild shape and concentrate on spells maybe the best thing to do is to shift into something fast or that can fly (8th and above) and get to safety and let you summons fight for you, but that’s a play style choice.
I know people don’t like circle of the land, but it literally give you non concentration spells from the wizards spell list. I would argue that is truly your nature mage build.
Excellent, I finally discovered that I AM NOT PEOPLE hahahahahaha
The one on earth is my favorite circle, too bad I also make bad decisions in the chosen territory hahahaha
When I first read the title I thought your disagreement was with druids being called "mages" which Id agree with.. mages, to me, are arcane casters where as druids are nature/primal casters in concept.. However I certainly do not primarily associate druids with shapeshifting, to me they are very much casters first. Of course moon druids are a cool twist which refocuses the class on being primarily shapeshifters which is cool.. although I never understood the elemental thing, surely "moon druid" brings to mind werewolves, not turning into elementals
I know people don’t like circle of the land, but it literally give you non concentration spells from the wizards spell list. I would argue that is truly your nature mage build.
Excellent, I finally discovered that I AM NOT PEOPLE hahahahahaha
The one on earth is my favorite circle, too bad I also make bad decisions in the chosen territory hahahaha
Hahaha I meant to put most or many people. You are people and I’m glad you like circle of the land. I like some them as well. Coast, Arctic and Mountain can be strong and any can be fun.
It's not contradictory; simply having the Spellcasting feature with full-caster slot progression makes every Druid a capable mage in theory (see Agilemind's post about why it's different in practice). You could ignore your sub-class features entirely and with the right mix of spells (which you can change on long rest) can still be plenty useful to the party. That sub-classes can boost this further doesn't change that the baseline casting ability is already pretty good.
I think the point is that Moon Druid gains features that are entirely separate from the spellcasting, and no matter how much they use these they still have that same baseline spellcasting ability on top, so even if you burn your combat wildshapes, you still have a full complement of spell slots to fall back to. Meanwhile a Druid focusing on being a nature mage will have already spent some of these, so in that respect a Moon Druid is the "better" nature mage because they may not have spent any of their spellcasting resources by the time they finally need to.
Personally I don't want to see Moon Druid become weak; I like the idea of a Druid who can hold their own on the front-line if that's what they want to do (or what their party needs), at least in terms of dishing out some damage and taking a fair bit in return (Barbarians and Fighters should still have the edge overall). But for that to remain strong throughout every tier of play it needs to come at an additional cost so it remains balanced.
I'm also an advocate of Druids getting a bit of built-in nature mage potential as an alternative to wild-shaping, and this would also help (because it's something a wildshaping Moon Druid won't be using). This shouldn't necessarily make them more powerful as such, just help with resource use, make it easier to juggle the concentration heavy Primal list etc.
This is false because the number one thing that druids can’t do while in Wild Shape, until much later in the game, is cast spells. Even if they can still concentrate on a spell if they lose concentration they would have to drop their Wild shape form to cast another spell. Also let’s be honest. At high levels of play the beast they can turn into don’t give them the greatest melee damage. They get to become massive meat shields not damage dealers. At level 20 I will say they are Gods because they have infinite hp, but still don’t have great damage for that level of play.
Starry Druid does work as a nature mage for most levels, but the others not so much because of three key problems:
(1) druid spells : druid damage dealing spells are terrible compared to other casters, their battlefield control is significantly worse than Arcane casters, while their healing is about the same as a cleric if that's the spells they so choose. This means most of the caster-druids end up playing primarily as healers not as mages in combat - note that Shepherd, Wildfire, and Dreams all get healing buffs as their best or 2nd best subclass feature.
(2) druid cantrips : druids get the WORST selection of combat cantrips of any caster, which combined with:
(3) almost every decent druid spell requires concentration, means that once you as a druid have cast your concentration spell (80% of the time conjure animals) you have very little worth doing and thus as in (1) end up becoming just a healer b/c all your other options suck.
I know people don’t like circle of the land, but it literally give you non concentration spells from the wizards spell list. I would argue that is truly your nature mage build.
(1) I could accept that their damage dealing spells were terrible compared to other casters if we only had the 2014 phb. All druids have access to blight, erupting earth, wither and bloom, fire storm, ice storm, and ice knife. Circle of land gets access to cone of cold, or lightning bolt. Circle of stars gets guiding bolt.
(2)Druid cantrips are weak compared to fire bolt and toll the dead, but those are some of the best damage cantrips in the game other than eldritch blast. Cantrips are honestly too strong in this game and add to the martial caster parity, but that’s another debate.
(3)None of the damage dealing spells I named in (1) are concentration. There is plenty to do. Also since all 5e druids can Wild shape and concentrate on spells maybe the best thing to do is to shift into something fast or that can fly (8th and above) and get to safety and let you summons fight for you, but that’s a play style choice.
(1) Ice knife is terrible even for a 1st level spell for reliable DPR, it is barely better than a cantrip even at level 1-4. Wither & Bloom is not worth a 2nd level slot unless you are getting both the healing & damage portions so again turning the druid into primarily a healer. Erupting earth is ok clearly subpar compared to Fireball or Lightning bolt or Spirit Guardians leaving the poor druid just slightly outperforming the bard in terms of damage. Blight is a CON save and single-target so on average is outperformed by an upcast Fireball or Lightning Bolt. Ice Storm is 4th level and does less damage than a 3rd level Fireball.
(2) Firebolt, Ray of Frost, Chill Touch, Toll the Dead and even Sacred Flame deal more damage than any druid cantrip after level 5 (Shillelagh and Magic Stone are great at low levels but don't scale so end up worthless in the long run). And Vicious Mockery has a great rider and a damage type with low resistance despite being low damage. So again the druid is barely outperforming the bard.
(3) Casting Conjure Animals then WSing into a giant badger and hiding the rest of the fight is BORING! It's a much less interesting playstyle than even fighters or barbarians. Having a whole class where their shtick is "I just hide from combat" when all the other classes focus a ton on combat is awful and unfun.
At level 11 with my Moon Druid I MCed into Wizard mainly to get Magic Missile because Magic Missile was the best use I could get out of my 1st & 2nd level spell slots when I wasn't using them for Healing Word.
This is false because the number one thing that druids can’t do while in Wild Shape, until much later in the game, is cast spells.
It's not false because that's precisely the point; when you're done with wildshape you still have just as many spell slots as you had before you wildshaped, except you've achieved everything that the wildshape let you achieve. In other words, when your wildshape is over, you go right back to being every bit as capable a spellcaster as you were, all it cost you was a use of wildshape.
How much value you get out of that depends on what you use wildshape for; a Circle of the Moon druid may be able to use wildshape for an entire combat, without expending any other resources, whereas another caster might have had to cast at least some spells to achieve the same thing (or to compete in other ways).
To scout or infiltrate, or to bypass obstacles etc. another caster will usually want to cast some spells to help themselves, but the Druid just needs to spend one use of wildshape. There's no need to cast spider climb when you can simply become a spider, no need to cast fly when you can become an actual fly etc. And all it takes is a short rest to get wildshape back again.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It's not contradictory; simply having the Spellcasting feature with full-caster slot progression makes every Druid a capable mage in theory (see Agilemind's post about why it's different in practice). You could ignore your sub-class features entirely and with the right mix of spells (which you can change on long rest) can still be plenty useful to the party. That sub-classes can boost this further doesn't change that the baseline casting ability is already pretty good.
I think the point is that Moon Druid gains features that are entirely separate from the spellcasting, and no matter how much they use these they still have that same baseline spellcasting ability on top, so even if you burn your combat wildshapes, you still have a full complement of spell slots to fall back to. Meanwhile a Druid focusing on being a nature mage will have already spent some of these, so in that respect a Moon Druid is the "better" nature mage because they may not have spent any of their spellcasting resources by the time they finally need to.
Personally I don't want to see Moon Druid become weak; I like the idea of a Druid who can hold their own on the front-line if that's what they want to do (or what their party needs), at least in terms of dishing out some damage and taking a fair bit in return (Barbarians and Fighters should still have the edge overall). But for that to remain strong throughout every tier of play it needs to come at an additional cost so it remains balanced.
I'm also an advocate of Druids getting a bit of built-in nature mage potential as an alternative to wild-shaping, and this would also help (because it's something a wildshaping Moon Druid won't be using). This shouldn't necessarily make them more powerful as such, just help with resource use, make it easier to juggle the concentration heavy Primal list etc.
This is false because the number one thing that druids can’t do while in Wild Shape, until much later in the game, is cast spells. Even if they can still concentrate on a spell if they lose concentration they would have to drop their Wild shape form to cast another spell. Also let’s be honest. At high levels of play the beast they can turn into don’t give them the greatest melee damage. They get to become massive meat shields not damage dealers. At level 20 I will say they are Gods because they have infinite hp, but still don’t have great damage for that level of play.
(1) Ice knife is terrible even for a 1st level spell for reliable DPR, it is barely better than a cantrip even at level 1-4. Wither & Bloom is not worth a 2nd level slot unless you are getting both the healing & damage portions so again turning the druid into primarily a healer. Erupting earth is ok clearly subpar compared to Fireball or Lightning bolt or Spirit Guardians leaving the poor druid just slightly outperforming the bard in terms of damage. Blight is a CON save and single-target so on average is outperformed by an upcast Fireball or Lightning Bolt. Ice Storm is 4th level and does less damage than a 3rd level Fireball.
(2) Firebolt, Ray of Frost, Chill Touch, Toll the Dead and even Sacred Flame deal more damage than any druid cantrip after level 5 (Shillelagh and Magic Stone are great at low levels but don't scale so end up worthless in the long run). And Vicious Mockery has a great rider and a damage type with low resistance despite being low damage. So again the druid is barely outperforming the bard.
(3) Casting Conjure Animals then WSing into a giant badger and hiding the rest of the fight is BORING! It's a much less interesting playstyle than even fighters or barbarians. Having a whole class where their shtick is "I just hide from combat" when all the other classes focus a ton on combat is awful and unfun.
At level 11 with my Moon Druid I MCed into Wizard mainly to get Magic Missile because Magic Missile was the best use I could get out of my 1st & 2nd level spell slots when I wasn't using them for Healing Word.
1) But a land Mountain Druid gets lightning bolt. Also fireball and lighting bolt are over tuned for there level. The developers have stated this. They did it because they are iconic spells. So you shouldn’t be comparing other spells to those two because all other spells will short. Ice knife doesn’t scale well so it’s pointless to upcast, but it is definitely better than a 1-4 cantrip and the second part hits multiple creatures. Also if we are including concentration damaging spells Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Moonbeam, Insect Plague, Maelstrom, and some pretty strong high level stuff.
2) Primal Savagery is a 1d10 but it’s a melee spell. Poison spray is a d12 but it’s poison damage and short range. Produce flame does the same damage as Ray of Frost and acts as the light spell. Frostbite has a pretty good rider for a d6 damage cantrip.
3) Love how you ignored the fact that you could cast other spells I named. I even said that it was a play style choice. You don’t have to choose it. Also thank you. I’m having another argument with people saying the moon Druid needs a nerf because it can do it all, but clearly that wasn’t your experience. Even though I would think most Moon Druid players wouldn’t MC at 11 since at 10 they can drop a concentration spell and become an Elemental. At 11th you get your 6th level spell which is great for conjure elemental if you know ahead of time a battle is likely. That gives you an invisible stalker. Then you can support that from range with spells or transform into an elemental yourself. Earth is great for concentration checks +5 con. If you happen to be on unworked earth earth glide is OP because you can move into the ground at the end of your turn. If you don’t want to conjure an invisible stalker 6th level spells include sunbeam, and wall of thorns.
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I think this is a good argument for more of Moon Druid's buffs to wildshape to be fuelled by spell slots; this could allow it to scale up to still be strong at higher levels, but at the cost of sacrificing your spellcasting to do so.
If we assume they'll revert wildshape to be a but more like 5e but probably still template based, i.e- give the templates their own hit-points based on size so you can once again be knocked out of Tiny form easily, but more combat appropriate forms can give you a bit of extra durability.
The issue for Moon Druid will be how to scale up that durability, because if they just do for free as a sub-class feature we'll be right back to the same problems as before. However, if their basic feature is wildshaping as a bonus action (already a big boost), then they could also add durability by spending a spell slot when you transform in order to add more hit-points to the new form. When they get elemental form it might add a modest boost of elemental damage, increased by any spell slot you spend to transform, later on they may gain the ability to spend slots while transformed to heal (to keep the form going longer)?
The idea being that a viable combat beast Moon Druid might be more equivalent to a half caster in practice, due to the slots they'll be spending to make the form strong enough to compete as a front-liner?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Making actions and abilities from wild shape use spell slots is another potential solution for circle of the moon, tho it'd really need to be good enough to be demanding the top level slots; making it affect AC and give Temp HP (while wild shaped) would probably be the obvious go too there. So AC=10+WIS+Spell slot and temp HP=Spell slot*5. It'd still need more to use a few more spell slots, making a few of those features around elemental forms also require spell slots to fuel.
You know, there used to be a clean solution for when you wanted casters to have access to a certain option but not force them to have it. It was called... Spells.
If only there was already a spell for turning yourself into an animal. Wait, there is? But it can target others! Well, what if it was split up into Wild Shape (Primal) and Baleful Polymorph (Arcane)?
If it's going to cost spellslots to WS then the form has to compete with other spells in terms of power. We already have spells that turn a caster into a martial : Tenser's Transformation, and ones that turn you into animals: Polymorph & Shapechange. So any new WS spell must be competitive with those to be worth using -> i.e. MORE powerful than the current Moon Druid forms. If Moon druid is to play like a half-caster they need a significant boost to the damage of their WS to keep up with other half-casters and to their AC for the same reason or they need to keep their massively expanded hit point pools.
We have many halfcasters to compare to now:
Hunter Ranger 5th level DPR = 2*(1d8+DEX+1d6)+1d8, Ranged or Melee + Weapon Mastery AC ~16, HP = 44
Devotion Paladin 5th level DPR = 2*(1d10+STR)+2d8 + 1d4+STR, Melee, AC ~18, HP = 44
Warlock 5th level DPR = 2*(1d10+CHA)+2d6, Ranged, AC ~ 18 (+Shield), HP = 38
WS Moon Druid 5th level DPR = 2*(1d8+WIS), AC 10+WIS, Melee, HP = 38
So for the cost of 2x 3rd level spells + 2x 2nd level spell, the Moon Druid needs to gain at minimum 2d6 DPR + 2 AC and ~20 HP every time they WS.
So... use the Beast of the Land template as a 2nd level spell that doesn't require concentration but with AC = 10+Wis+Proficiency bonus, where you gain temporary hp = 5* the level of the spell and that doesn't prevent you from casting spells while in WS allowing them to combo it with Hunter's Mark or all the other fun ranger spells, and give them the Paladin Smite spells as always prepared bonus subclass spells. Voila you have a WSing half-caster Moon Druid that plays like a hybrid of Ranger & Paladin but as an animal.
Having WS cost spell slots is probably the best option if WS is left as a druid feature (if WS should mean half-caster, change it to a ranger subclass. TBH, you could do both; the ranger gets the ability to cast the WS spell at level/2 rounded up).
A lazy option that is somewhat appealing to me is:
I'm sorry, it was probably due to the translator, I meant to refer to blurring the LIMITS between druia and ranger.
That if I see it as an option, that some characteristics of the wildshape only of the circle of the moon, optional but worth it so that they usually spend spaces in it, possibly they do not spend the highest levels but they do drain several.
Wait how did this go from arguing that “Druids need features to support them being nature mages,” to arguing “moon druids can do everything and need to be balanced.” If that was true that means that every other Druid is already a capable nature mage and needs nothing more.
Nah, it's perfectly possible for both to be true. Wild Shape in 5e is an incredible power (WS in One D&D is...not).
It’s contradictory. If the Moon Druid is a functioning nature mage then all druids are because the other subclasses actually have more to help them when it comes to casting. Land has additional spells and natural recovery, Wildfire has additional spells that aren’t concentration and a summoned creature, Stars has a guiding bolt, weal or woe, and start form that have abilities that scale with Spellcasting modifier, and Shepard has summons. Arguing that Moon is effective at everything, while false, highlights that the other subclasses must be fine as nature casters already.
It's not contradictory; simply having the Spellcasting feature with full-caster slot progression makes every Druid a capable mage in theory (see Agilemind's post about why it's different in practice). You could ignore your sub-class features entirely and with the right mix of spells (which you can change on long rest) can still be plenty useful to the party. That sub-classes can boost this further doesn't change that the baseline casting ability is already pretty good.
I think the point is that Moon Druid gains features that are entirely separate from the spellcasting, and no matter how much they use these they still have that same baseline spellcasting ability on top, so even if you burn your combat wildshapes, you still have a full complement of spell slots to fall back to. Meanwhile a Druid focusing on being a nature mage will have already spent some of these, so in that respect a Moon Druid is the "better" nature mage because they may not have spent any of their spellcasting resources by the time they finally need to.
Personally I don't want to see Moon Druid become weak; I like the idea of a Druid who can hold their own on the front-line if that's what they want to do (or what their party needs), at least in terms of dishing out some damage and taking a fair bit in return (Barbarians and Fighters should still have the edge overall). But for that to remain strong throughout every tier of play it needs to come at an additional cost so it remains balanced.
I'm also an advocate of Druids getting a bit of built-in nature mage potential as an alternative to wild-shaping, and this would also help (because it's something a wildshaping Moon Druid won't be using). This shouldn't necessarily make them more powerful as such, just help with resource use, make it easier to juggle the concentration heavy Primal list etc.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Starry Druid does work as a nature mage for most levels, but the others not so much because of three key problems:
(1) druid spells : druid damage dealing spells are terrible compared to other casters, their battlefield control is significantly worse than Arcane casters, while their healing is about the same as a cleric if that's the spells they so choose. This means most of the caster-druids end up playing primarily as healers not as mages in combat - note that Shepherd, Wildfire, and Dreams all get healing buffs as their best or 2nd best subclass feature.
(2) druid cantrips : druids get the WORST selection of combat cantrips of any caster, which combined with:
(3) almost every decent druid spell requires concentration, means that once you as a druid have cast your concentration spell (80% of the time conjure animals) you have very little worth doing and thus as in (1) end up becoming just a healer b/c all your other options suck.
Well, I don't see it as contradictory, I'm not saying that all the wildshap enhancements exclusive to the circle of the moon can only be used by spending spell slots, in fact it should be useful in combat without spending it, but not that much, and that they give you the chance to improve it even more using your magical energy:
Not all these optional and additional improvements must necessarily be from spending spell slots, they can also be from spending additional uses of the nature channel. The point is to give them a chance to power it up even more, and momentarily compete with the half-spellcasting melee fighters, before losing their form and returning to the rear or recasting Wildshape.
And it should be optional, but clearly attractive so that it's a useful option to spend it on that instead of using it on the rear, you boost your subclass!
Uh... perhaps you have a different definition of battlefield control than I do. I consider that shaping the field, which generally means zoning effects.
I like the druid options there. Of course, you might mean CC rather than zoning, and arcane casters do have a lot better CC.
This is false because the number one thing that druids can’t do while in Wild Shape, until much later in the game, is cast spells. Even if they can still concentrate on a spell if they lose concentration they would have to drop their Wild shape form to cast another spell. Also let’s be honest. At high levels of play the beast they can turn into don’t give them the greatest melee damage. They get to become massive meat shields not damage dealers. At level 20 I will say they are Gods because they have infinite hp, but still don’t have great damage for that level of play.
I know people don’t like circle of the land, but it literally give you non concentration spells from the wizards spell list. I would argue that is truly your nature mage build.
(1) I could accept that their damage dealing spells were terrible compared to other casters if we only had the 2014 phb. All druids have access to blight, erupting earth, wither and bloom, fire storm, ice storm, and ice knife. Circle of land gets access to cone of cold, or lightning bolt. Circle of stars gets guiding bolt.
(2)Druid cantrips are weak compared to fire bolt and toll the dead, but those are some of the best damage cantrips in the game other than eldritch blast. Cantrips are honestly too strong in this game and add to the martial caster parity, but that’s another debate.
(3)None of the damage dealing spells I named in (1) are concentration. There is plenty to do. Also since all 5e druids can Wild shape and concentrate on spells maybe the best thing to do is to shift into something fast or that can fly (8th and above) and get to safety and let you summons fight for you, but that’s a play style choice.
Excellent, I finally discovered that I AM NOT PEOPLE hahahahahahaThe one on earth is my favorite circle, too bad I also make bad decisions in the chosen territory hahahahaWhen I first read the title I thought your disagreement was with druids being called "mages" which Id agree with.. mages, to me, are arcane casters where as druids are nature/primal casters in concept.. However I certainly do not primarily associate druids with shapeshifting, to me they are very much casters first. Of course moon druids are a cool twist which refocuses the class on being primarily shapeshifters which is cool.. although I never understood the elemental thing, surely "moon druid" brings to mind werewolves, not turning into elementals
Hahaha I meant to put most or many people. You are people and I’m glad you like circle of the land. I like some them as well. Coast, Arctic and Mountain can be strong and any can be fun.
(1)
Ice knife is terrible even for a 1st level spell for reliable DPR, it is barely better than a cantrip even at level 1-4.
Wither & Bloom is not worth a 2nd level slot unless you are getting both the healing & damage portions so again turning the druid into primarily a healer.
Erupting earth is ok clearly subpar compared to Fireball or Lightning bolt or Spirit Guardians leaving the poor druid just slightly outperforming the bard in terms of damage.
Blight is a CON save and single-target so on average is outperformed by an upcast Fireball or Lightning Bolt.
Ice Storm is 4th level and does less damage than a 3rd level Fireball.
(2) Firebolt, Ray of Frost, Chill Touch, Toll the Dead and even Sacred Flame deal more damage than any druid cantrip after level 5 (Shillelagh and Magic Stone are great at low levels but don't scale so end up worthless in the long run). And Vicious Mockery has a great rider and a damage type with low resistance despite being low damage. So again the druid is barely outperforming the bard.
(3) Casting Conjure Animals then WSing into a giant badger and hiding the rest of the fight is BORING! It's a much less interesting playstyle than even fighters or barbarians. Having a whole class where their shtick is "I just hide from combat" when all the other classes focus a ton on combat is awful and unfun.
At level 11 with my Moon Druid I MCed into Wizard mainly to get Magic Missile because Magic Missile was the best use I could get out of my 1st & 2nd level spell slots when I wasn't using them for Healing Word.
It's not false because that's precisely the point; when you're done with wildshape you still have just as many spell slots as you had before you wildshaped, except you've achieved everything that the wildshape let you achieve. In other words, when your wildshape is over, you go right back to being every bit as capable a spellcaster as you were, all it cost you was a use of wildshape.
How much value you get out of that depends on what you use wildshape for; a Circle of the Moon druid may be able to use wildshape for an entire combat, without expending any other resources, whereas another caster might have had to cast at least some spells to achieve the same thing (or to compete in other ways).
To scout or infiltrate, or to bypass obstacles etc. another caster will usually want to cast some spells to help themselves, but the Druid just needs to spend one use of wildshape. There's no need to cast spider climb when you can simply become a spider, no need to cast fly when you can become an actual fly etc. And all it takes is a short rest to get wildshape back again.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
1) But a land Mountain Druid gets lightning bolt. Also fireball and lighting bolt are over tuned for there level. The developers have stated this. They did it because they are iconic spells. So you shouldn’t be comparing other spells to those two because all other spells will short. Ice knife doesn’t scale well so it’s pointless to upcast, but it is definitely better than a 1-4 cantrip and the second part hits multiple creatures. Also if we are including concentration damaging spells Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Moonbeam, Insect Plague, Maelstrom, and some pretty strong high level stuff.
2) Primal Savagery is a 1d10 but it’s a melee spell. Poison spray is a d12 but it’s poison damage and short range. Produce flame does the same damage as Ray of Frost and acts as the light spell. Frostbite has a pretty good rider for a d6 damage cantrip.
3) Love how you ignored the fact that you could cast other spells I named. I even said that it was a play style choice. You don’t have to choose it. Also thank you. I’m having another argument with people saying the moon Druid needs a nerf because it can do it all, but clearly that wasn’t your experience. Even though I would think most Moon Druid players wouldn’t MC at 11 since at 10 they can drop a concentration spell and become an Elemental. At 11th you get your 6th level spell which is great for conjure elemental if you know ahead of time a battle is likely. That gives you an invisible stalker. Then you can support that from range with spells or transform into an elemental yourself. Earth is great for concentration checks +5 con. If you happen to be on unworked earth earth glide is OP because you can move into the ground at the end of your turn. If you don’t want to conjure an invisible stalker 6th level spells include sunbeam, and wall of thorns.