To be honest, it’s wildshape that turns me off to the Druid class. In the stories I’ve read, Druids go on spirit walks and dream quests, use herbalism for much more than just healing, commune with spirits of animals and nature, and often call those spirits or the animals that represent them to their aid. Shapeshifting into animals is only part of a Druid’s repertoire in the stories, and in many stories they don’t do it at all. I know the rest of those abilities are supposed to be represented by their spellcasting, but frankly I wish that D&D Druid subclasses would represent these various other powers, and that the Circle of the Moon would take the shapeshifting mantle off of the Druid class.
so, you'd like to see a witch? same here. if there was, then shapeshifting druids would fit into just one subclasses leaving a lot of space for herb lore, talking to spirits, granny Weatherwax's good old headology, quidditch, etc...
Call it a “witch” if you want, in the stories I’ve read or heard or seen they are often called “Druids.”
To be honest, it’s wildshape that turns me off to the Druid class. In the stories I’ve read, Druids go on spirit walks and dream quests, use herbalism for much more than just healing, commune with spirits of animals and nature, and often call those spirits or the animals that represent them to their aid. Shapeshifting into animals is only part of a Druid’s repertoire in the stories, and in many stories they don’t do it at all. I know the rest of those abilities are supposed to be represented by their spellcasting, but frankly I wish that D&D Druid subclasses would represent these various other powers, and that the Circle of the Moon would take the shapeshifting mantle off of the Druid class.
Sure - if they can't make utility wildshape work for the base druid, then I'd be fine restricting it completely to Moon and having the baseline Channel Nature do more castery things. But I'm fine with Channel Nature doing more castery things regardless of what happens to wildshape.
Question for the people who say "all you need to be a nature mage is Spellcasting, you don't deserve anything else".
Is spellcasting all the cleric needs to be a divine mage? Or do they have a bunch of other class features to help hone in on that class fantasy of the gods-blessed sage or warrior?
I'm with the folks who say Circle of the Moon can be the ONLY Wild Shape subclass, or at least the primary one. Make Moon Wild Shape better, then get the crappy closet furry shapeshifting out of the core class and give us some real goddamn druidic powers. For real - let Moon use spell slots to fuel/empower Wild Shape so Moon folks can go full Doric and solve all their problems with their owlbear hands, and then let the rest of us actually be badass natural sages, scholars, and/or warriors.
To be honest, it’s wildshape that turns me off to the Druid class. In the stories I’ve read, Druids go on spirit walks and dream quests, use herbalism for much more than just healing, commune with spirits of animals and nature, and often call those spirits or the animals that represent them to their aid. Shapeshifting into animals is only part of a Druid’s repertoire in the stories, and in many stories they don’t do it at all. I know the rest of those abilities are supposed to be represented by their spellcasting, but frankly I wish that D&D Druid subclasses would represent these various other powers, and that the Circle of the Moon would take the shapeshifting mantle off of the Druid class.
Sure - if they can't make utility wildshape work for the base druid, then I'd be fine restricting it completely to Moon and having the baseline Channel Nature do more castery things. But I'm fine with Channel Nature doing more castery things regardless of what happens to wildshape.
The class's thematic territory could be easily covered by a Cleric of a Nature Diety/Domain. No need for any sort of shapeshifter class features; just let them have the various polymorph spells and a set of nature-related spells.
Personally that hurts me and I hate it, I know that initially the druid was created from a variant of the priest, a variant of nature, and that it is a partial mixture between priest and magician, but it is not just that anymore, they took on an identity own and acquired some things of his own.
That is why I disliked that healing flowers were based on the class, more than the aesthetic, that is forcing us to go to its origin as a priest with a natural flavor... if I wanted that, I would choose that class and subclass, but It does not attract me, it is not a druid, a distant relative or neighbor yes, but it is not a druid. I see the ranger closer, but still different and depending on which subclass follows something distant, than those subclasses of the priest or others that appear with a theme about nature or the primary elements.
So I don't agree with your approach, much less as an option or solution. Like others, they would not like to be told to eliminate certain classes because some do not see the point, that they are only a subclass of others with which they only shared some things.
i don't think anyone believes that they'd actually re-absorb druids into the cleric class. among other reasons, Doric was way too popular in the movie.
what they really need to do instead is work to move druid farther away from cleric. give nature domain it's own room to breathe. the trick is finding another direction to lean. i've always had a head-canon for druids that was more akin to paladin oaths (defense and vengeance especially) but with more moonbeam pew pew. auras would be fun too.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
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...No? I mean stuff like Divine Spark, Harness Divine Power, Potent Spellcasting etc. Stuff that's useful for a non-melee druid's combat prowess in other words.
Also I don't think Nature Cleric should be in the PHB anyway, if they add Dreams Druid then that covers off on the "nature healer" niche they occupied.
IMO druid / primal spell list needs more of a clear identity rather than being a mishmash of Arcane & Divine lists. I mean look at the overlap in spells between Divine & Arcane, then look at the overlap between Primal and either Divine or Arcane....
What I want to see on the Primal spell list:
Terrain manipulation - Entangle, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Transmute Rock, Erupting Earth are all good
Weather manipulation - All the wind-based spells suck and need fixing, and there needs to be way more thunder based spells (1x 1st level spell that deals Thunder damage is not enough for a Druid!), I want to see spells like Storm Sphere on the Druid spell list, not the Wizard spell list!!
Conjuration that works - Not spells that require 1 minute to cast and then turn on the party before we've even encountered the enemy.
Transportation spells - Why is teleportation the only way to get around using magic? Give me spells that reinvigorate horses doubling their daily travel speed, give me spells that generate wind to power our sailing ship. Windwalk is good but only comes online at level 13, give us a lesser version that we can use during a normal campaign.
Shelter spells - Why should the party be safer in a wizard's magic dome, than around a druid's campfire? Let me make the party's campsite invisible without blowing a 4th level spell slot on it.
Have nature magic lean more into summoning, terrain manipulation/control, passive effects, and the like.
Yes, that is consistent with several of the aspects/themes of the druid, but also some immediate spells at each level and/or improve it with the channel, I mean, the druid is full of circumstantial spells and especially concentration.
Speaking of concentration, I don't know why the druid is proficient in intelligence saving, if it were up to me I would change it to build, I mean, if they tend to focus often (Most of their spells are concentration spells), they should also be slightly adapted to sustain Focus and not lose it.
IMO druid / primal spell list needs more of a clear identity rather than being a mishmash of Arcane & Divine lists. I mean look at the overlap in spells between Divine & Arcane, then look at the overlap between Primal and either Divine or Arcane....
What I want to see on the Primal spell list:
Terrain manipulation - Entangle, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Transmute Rock, Erupting Earth are all good
Weather manipulation - All the wind-based spells suck and need fixing, and there needs to be way more thunder based spells (1x 1st level spell that deals Thunder damage is not enough for a Druid!), I want to see spells like Storm Sphere on the Druid spell list, not the Wizard spell list!!
Conjuration that works - Not spells that require 1 minute to cast and then turn on the party before we've even encountered the enemy.
Transportation spells - Why is teleportation the only way to get around using magic? Give me spells that reinvigorate horses doubling their daily travel speed, give me spells that generate wind to power our sailing ship. Windwalk is good but only comes online at level 13, give us a lesser version that we can use during a normal campaign.
Shelter spells - Why should the party be safer in a wizard's magic dome, than around a druid's campfire? Let me make the party's campsite invisible without blowing a 4th level spell slot on it.
I agree, good list, there would be a lack of some types of protection from nature and the elements, such as the fire shield (Absent in his 5e list and in AU, but added in tasha.) or something similar, preferably not It requires concentration, not because I don't want the last thing, but because you have many with it and if you did, they couldn't be used with the rest, I mean, what would be the point, do I protect myself without being able to do anything else?
i don't think anyone believes that they'd actually re-absorb druids into the cleric class.
Don't worry, I know they won't remove it, even so it doesn't change what hurts or annoys a little, if one of the classes you like the most is despised or considered to be replaceable filler by a subclass. I'm not angry anyway, I just wanted to mention that it didn't feel good, sorry if my reaction seemed exaggerated.
IMO druid / primal spell list needs more of a clear identity rather than being a mishmash of Arcane & Divine lists. I mean look at the overlap in spells between Divine & Arcane, then look at the overlap between Primal and either Divine or Arcane....
What I want to see on the Primal spell list:
Terrain manipulation - Entangle, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Transmute Rock, Erupting Earth are all good
Weather manipulation - All the wind-based spells suck and need fixing, and there needs to be way more thunder based spells (1x 1st level spell that deals Thunder damage is not enough for a Druid!), I want to see spells like Storm Sphere on the Druid spell list, not the Wizard spell list!!
Conjuration that works - Not spells that require 1 minute to cast and then turn on the party before we've even encountered the enemy.
Transportation spells - Why is teleportation the only way to get around using magic? Give me spells that reinvigorate horses doubling their daily travel speed, give me spells that generate wind to power our sailing ship. Windwalk is good but only comes online at level 13, give us a lesser version that we can use during a normal campaign.
Shelter spells - Why should the party be safer in a wizard's magic dome, than around a druid's campfire? Let me make the party's campsite invisible without blowing a 4th level spell slot on it.
This I like. Also, Druids should have many of the mind manipulation of perceived terrain spells - things like maze. Then things that turn plants into actively thinking creatures temporarily- turn an oak into a friendly treat for a few minutes ( maybe without having to maintain concentration), turn a saguaro cactus into a living thinking needled ally, etc.
Druids were, historically, the priests of the various Celtic groups of Northern Europe before the Roman conquest. Sadly we don’t really know much about them as what little we have is from Roman and Greek (enemy) texts and so they are vilified. We do know that they weren’t the “preservers” of nature - that roll is strictly modern not ancient. They did seem to cover the connections between Man, Nature and Spirit so giving them access to both the Fey courts would seem to make sense. Also giving them access to elemental/paraelemental magics would seem to make sense. To me Druids were the first spellcasters with all others shifting away over time as they got “specialized”. In that sense Druids are more like sorcerors with their internal magical connections. Druids develop an innate primal connection to living world(s) drawing on and shaping the primal energies with their will. Part of this is forcing their own body to change (shape shifting/wildshaping) other parts include summoning from this and other connected worlds (Feywild) and part is spellcasting but potentially as even better casters in some ways than mages.( wizards have broken their internal connections to the mystical energies and force compliance via spell formulae, sorcerors just will the effects through their internal connections, clerics, like mages, have broken their own links and use formulaic “prayers” to “deities”, warlocks access the powers thru pacts that reconnect them to the primal forces through their patrons. Druids ( and rangers) have retained that direct personal link to the magic of the world drawing on all these techniques and more. They actually should have every spell not just the primal list with the other lists being what the various other groups have extracted from the Druidic actions. And as such the Druidic versions could well be more powerful ( not hugely for game balance sake but something like PB times /LR the Druid can add its wisdom bonus or maybe their Druid level to the damage or duration of a spell they cast. so things like wildshape become spells much like the new sorceror spells that can prove when upcast. Channel nature might include the extra damage/duration, bringing plants of various sizes (based on level) to life and action for a while etc.
IMO druid / primal spell list needs more of a clear identity rather than being a mishmash of Arcane & Divine lists. I mean look at the overlap in spells between Divine & Arcane, then look at the overlap between Primal and either Divine or Arcane....
What I want to see on the Primal spell list:
Terrain manipulation - Entangle, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Transmute Rock, Erupting Earth are all good
Weather manipulation - All the wind-based spells suck and need fixing, and there needs to be way more thunder based spells (1x 1st level spell that deals Thunder damage is not enough for a Druid!), I want to see spells like Storm Sphere on the Druid spell list, not the Wizard spell list!!
Conjuration that works - Not spells that require 1 minute to cast and then turn on the party before we've even encountered the enemy.
Transportation spells - Why is teleportation the only way to get around using magic? Give me spells that reinvigorate horses doubling their daily travel speed, give me spells that generate wind to power our sailing ship. Windwalk is good but only comes online at level 13, give us a lesser version that we can use during a normal campaign.
Shelter spells - Why should the party be safer in a wizard's magic dome, than around a druid's campfire? Let me make the party's campsite invisible without blowing a 4th level spell slot on it.
To be fair I think Druids do have most of the items on this list. Transportation is a weaker point for them, but they can in fact travel long distances, as well as buff and reinvigorate horses. Terrain, Weather, and Summoning are all strong. Shelter is a weak point for them in 5e but given the options that existed in other editions (like Web Shelter or Wall of Wood) I expect they'll get that part of the portfolio beefed up via splat before too long.
The class's thematic territory could be easily covered by a Cleric of a Nature Diety/Domain. No need for any sort of shapeshifter class features; just let them have the various polymorph spells and a set of nature-related spells.
Personally that hurts me and I hate it, I know that initially the druid was created from a variant of the priest, a variant of nature, and that it is a partial mixture between priest and magician, but it is not just that anymore, they took on an identity own and acquired some things of his own.
That is why I disliked that healing flowers were based on the class, more than the aesthetic, that is forcing us to go to its origin as a priest with a natural flavor... if I wanted that, I would choose that class and subclass, but It does not attract me, it is not a druid, a distant relative or neighbor yes, but it is not a druid. I see the ranger closer, but still different and depending on which subclass follows something distant, than those subclasses of the priest or others that appear with a theme about nature or the primary elements.
So I don't agree with your approach, much less as an option or solution. Like others, they would not like to be told to eliminate certain classes because some do not see the point, that they are only a subclass of others with which they only shared some things.
i don't think anyone believes that they'd actually re-absorb druids into the cleric class.
Don't worry, I know they won't remove it, even so it doesn't change what hurts or annoys a little, if one of the classes you like the most is despised or considered to be replaceable filler by a subclass. I'm not angry anyway, I just wanted to mention that it didn't feel good, sorry if my reaction seemed exaggerated.
i'm confident neither will be phased out. nature cleric and the druid come at this from two different angles. the cleric is of the people and can navigate, charm, or negotiate with the wilds. whereas if the druid really wants "a region of unspoiled nature" to remain unspoiled then... they're going to sit tight and entertain zero sharing of borders or bridging of gaps. these aren't mirrors of each other. sure, druids can also be leaders of a village and balance elementals or whatnot, but that's really, really cleric adjacent! less of that in the future, please. if you're feeling bad that the two things are being equated it's because they've grown together with neglect. WotC needs to put a little effort into separating druids and clerics (of all stripes) (and rangers too, probably). i've mentioned 'witches' as an intersection between hippy hermit, powerful mage, and steward of the balance of nature. i won't belabor that or get my hopes up, but i mention it to show that there directions yet to explore. just keep watch as you have, and it'll work itself out.
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For the folks who are complaining about Druids lacking power, I cautiously disagree. Would I like a bit more spellcasy flexibility on the Primal list? Sure. Mobility and in-combat position change abilities often useful and not too flashy. And boosting their concentration spells a bit would be fair, esp those level 4 to 6 damages spells.
However, I highly doubt Druids will ever get Lightning Bolt, Fireball, or any of the "BAMF Boom" spells. Nor do I really think they ahould. Druids were known as being OP in 3.5 edition. Sure that was before concentration became a mechanic, but I sense that the devs are leery of making Druids too much like Wizards precisely because of how strong Druids were in 3.5. That's why I think we should be more creative in expanding the definition of "nature" to enable more out-of-the -cubicle ideas rather than using "nature mages" or "nature priests" in a literal way.
Would love druid to get split into a nature mage class and a shapeshifter class. Trying to squeeze them together isn't doing either concept any favours. Maybe different subclasses focusing on turning into different creature types.
But 5e is so utterly terrified of new classes that it's now trying to ruin the warlock by making it into a swordmage, so I have no hope at all for it.
I've always felt that the Druid class was a needless redundancy.
Hear me out.
The class's thematic territory could be easily covered by a Cleric of a Nature Diety/Domain. No need for any sort of shapeshifter class features; just let them have the various polymorph spells and a set of nature-related spells.
Problem solved.
Well... the druid has come a long way since it branched out from the cleric. Just as ranger and barbarian, which used to be fighter subclasses. While divine magic is about healing, protection and clairvoyance in all its forms, primal magic is material, elemental, and tends to work off your surroundings, "amplifying" nature in some ways. Some cleric subclasses have access to destructive spells, but these are just that, specific subclasses.
Personally, I think Druids are more mages than shapeshifters, they are more on the nature side. There was of course Moon Druid in 5E being very wild shape based and that wasn't entirely balanced since they still got full spell progression while also getting wild shape, multi-classing barbarian 3 levels with moon druid got very tanky.
Do I think we need 5 full casters? Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and Bard? Probably not. I do think instead Druid could be made a half-caster with subclasses that are full-casters, that would likely help balance out the moon druid and other shape shifting druid subclasses. So your Circle of the Land Druid is still a full caster and gets full caster progression while Circle of the Moon gets half-caster progression and a simply better wild shape.
Personally, I think Druids are more mages than shapeshifters, they are more on the nature side. There was of course Moon Druid in 5E being very wild shape based and that wasn't entirely balanced since they still got full spell progression while also getting wild shape, multi-classing barbarian 3 levels with moon druid got very tanky.
Do I think we need 5 full casters? Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and Bard? Probably not. I do think instead Druid could be made a half-caster with subclasses that are full-casters, that would likely help balance out the moon druid and other shape shifting druid subclasses. So your Circle of the Land Druid is still a full caster and gets full caster progression while Circle of the Moon gets half-caster progression and a simply better wild shape.
Have you played a moon druid? So many comments are about balance and casting plus wildshape, but in game play it's important to understand that the price of wildshape is not being able to cast spells. Moon Druids can wildshape more effectively but that doesn't allow them to be a full caster while wildshaped.
Having a "full caster" class focused on nature seems a no-brainer, and however wildshape works into that it's not any more useful or powerful than other caster's abilities, just a different flavour.
Would love druid to get split into a nature mage class and a shapeshifter class. Trying to squeeze them together isn't doing either concept any favours. Maybe different subclasses focusing on turning into different creature types.
But 5e is so utterly terrified of new classes that it's now trying to ruin the warlock by making it into a swordmage, so I have no hope at all for it.
Again, missing the point that wildshape is something that takes away casting ability, so they are already separate states of the druid. They can be used in concert somewhat, but subject to concentration on spells, and I don't think anyone would argue a Druid is stronger than an equal level Wizard or Sorcerer. Wildshape and Druid Mage are not separate. They've been part of the Druid for a very long time.
Personally, I think Druids are more mages than shapeshifters, they are more on the nature side. There was of course Moon Druid in 5E being very wild shape based and that wasn't entirely balanced since they still got full spell progression while also getting wild shape, multi-classing barbarian 3 levels with moon druid got very tanky.
Do I think we need 5 full casters? Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and Bard? Probably not. I do think instead Druid could be made a half-caster with subclasses that are full-casters, that would likely help balance out the moon druid and other shape shifting druid subclasses. So your Circle of the Land Druid is still a full caster and gets full caster progression while Circle of the Moon gets half-caster progression and a simply better wild shape.
Have you played a moon druid? So many comments are about balance and casting plus wildshape, but in game play it's important to understand that the price of wildshape is not being able to cast spells. Moon Druids can wildshape more effectively but that doesn't allow them to be a full caster while wildshaped.
Having a "full caster" class focused on nature seems a no-brainer, and however wildshape works into that it's not any more useful or powerful than other caster's abilities, just a different flavour.
Yes, I've played Moon Druid in 5E, up to level 9 and certainly at those levels, Moon Druid is overpowered, getting 4th levelled spells and the ability to be tanking damage up front or tossing out spells when situation open up to it. The thing is you can toss out a spell and wild shape in 1 turn as a moon druid, you can toss out a plant growth or moon beam and transform on the same turn. Heck remember one time using conjure animals and being wild shaped myself to get some broken combos and action economy. You might say spell casting and being wild shaped don't go together but moon druid can just drop wild shape to spell cast and only a bonus action to transform again on their next turn; their flexibility and versatility here is exceptional.
Call it a “witch” if you want, in the stories I’ve read or heard or seen they are often called “Druids.”
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Sure - if they can't make utility wildshape work for the base druid, then I'd be fine restricting it completely to Moon and having the baseline Channel Nature do more castery things. But I'm fine with Channel Nature doing more castery things regardless of what happens to wildshape.
Question for the people who say "all you need to be a nature mage is Spellcasting, you don't deserve anything else".
Is spellcasting all the cleric needs to be a divine mage? Or do they have a bunch of other class features to help hone in on that class fantasy of the gods-blessed sage or warrior?
I'm with the folks who say Circle of the Moon can be the ONLY Wild Shape subclass, or at least the primary one. Make Moon Wild Shape better, then get the crappy closet furry shapeshifting out of the core class and give us some real goddamn druidic powers. For real - let Moon use spell slots to fuel/empower Wild Shape so Moon folks can go full Doric and solve all their problems with their owlbear hands, and then let the rest of us actually be badass natural sages, scholars, and/or warriors.
It's only fair.
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"more castery things" like wear heavy armor and channel
divinitynature to charm plants and animals?unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Personally that hurts me and I hate it, I know that initially the druid was created from a variant of the priest, a variant of nature, and that it is a partial mixture between priest and magician, but it is not just that anymore, they took on an identity own and acquired some things of his own.
That is why I disliked that healing flowers were based on the class, more than the aesthetic, that is forcing us to go to its origin as a priest with a natural flavor... if I wanted that, I would choose that class and subclass, but It does not attract me, it is not a druid, a distant relative or neighbor yes, but it is not a druid. I see the ranger closer, but still different and depending on which subclass follows something distant, than those subclasses of the priest or others that appear with a theme about nature or the primary elements.
So I don't agree with your approach, much less as an option or solution. Like others, they would not like to be told to eliminate certain classes because some do not see the point, that they are only a subclass of others with which they only shared some things.
i don't think anyone believes that they'd actually re-absorb druids into the cleric class. among other reasons, Doric was way too popular in the movie.
what they really need to do instead is work to move druid farther away from cleric. give nature domain it's own room to breathe. the trick is finding another direction to lean. i've always had a head-canon for druids that was more akin to paladin oaths (defense and vengeance especially) but with more moonbeam pew pew. auras would be fun too.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
...No? I mean stuff like Divine Spark, Harness Divine Power, Potent Spellcasting etc. Stuff that's useful for a non-melee druid's combat prowess in other words.
Also I don't think Nature Cleric should be in the PHB anyway, if they add Dreams Druid then that covers off on the "nature healer" niche they occupied.
Have nature magic lean more into summoning, terrain manipulation/control, passive effects, and the like.
I'm fine with all this but I think its fair to say Druids already excel at these options from their spells. Channel could buff these further though.
IMO druid / primal spell list needs more of a clear identity rather than being a mishmash of Arcane & Divine lists. I mean look at the overlap in spells between Divine & Arcane, then look at the overlap between Primal and either Divine or Arcane....
What I want to see on the Primal spell list:
Yes, that is consistent with several of the aspects/themes of the druid, but also some immediate spells at each level and/or improve it with the channel, I mean, the druid is full of circumstantial spells and especially concentration.
Speaking of concentration, I don't know why the druid is proficient in intelligence saving, if it were up to me I would change it to build, I mean, if they tend to focus often (Most of their spells are concentration spells), they should also be slightly adapted to sustain Focus and not lose it.
I agree, good list, there would be a lack of some types of protection from nature and the elements, such as the fire shield (Absent in his 5e list and in AU, but added in tasha.) or something similar, preferably not It requires concentration, not because I don't want the last thing, but because you have many with it and if you did, they couldn't be used with the rest, I mean, what would be the point, do I protect myself without being able to do anything else?
Don't worry, I know they won't remove it, even so it doesn't change what hurts or annoys a little, if one of the classes you like the most is despised or considered to be replaceable filler by a subclass. I'm not angry anyway, I just wanted to mention that it didn't feel good, sorry if my reaction seemed exaggerated.
This I like. Also, Druids should have many of the mind manipulation of perceived terrain spells - things like maze. Then things that turn plants into actively thinking creatures temporarily- turn an oak into a friendly treat for a few minutes ( maybe without having to maintain concentration), turn a saguaro cactus into a living thinking needled ally, etc.
Druids were, historically, the priests of the various Celtic groups of Northern Europe before the Roman conquest. Sadly we don’t really know much about them as what little we have is from Roman and Greek (enemy) texts and so they are vilified. We do know that they weren’t the “preservers” of nature - that roll is strictly modern not ancient. They did seem to cover the connections between Man, Nature and Spirit so giving them access to both the Fey courts would seem to make sense. Also giving them access to elemental/paraelemental magics would seem to make sense. To me Druids were the first spellcasters with all others shifting away over time as they got “specialized”. In that sense Druids are more like sorcerors with their internal magical connections. Druids develop an innate primal connection to living world(s) drawing on and shaping the primal energies with their will. Part of this is forcing their own body to change (shape shifting/wildshaping) other parts include summoning from this and other connected worlds (Feywild) and part is spellcasting but potentially as even better casters in some ways than mages.( wizards have broken their internal connections to the mystical energies and force compliance via spell formulae, sorcerors just will the effects through their internal connections, clerics, like mages, have broken their own links and use formulaic “prayers” to “deities”, warlocks access the powers thru pacts that reconnect them to the primal forces through their patrons. Druids ( and rangers) have retained that direct personal link to the magic of the world drawing on all these techniques and more. They actually should have every spell not just the primal list with the other lists being what the various other groups have extracted from the Druidic actions. And as such the Druidic versions could well be more powerful ( not hugely for game balance sake but something like PB times /LR the Druid can add its wisdom bonus or maybe their Druid level to the damage or duration of a spell they cast.
so things like wildshape become spells much like the new sorceror spells that can prove when upcast. Channel nature might include the extra damage/duration, bringing plants of various sizes (based on level) to life and action for a while etc.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
To be fair I think Druids do have most of the items on this list. Transportation is a weaker point for them, but they can in fact travel long distances, as well as buff and reinvigorate horses. Terrain, Weather, and Summoning are all strong. Shelter is a weak point for them in 5e but given the options that existed in other editions (like Web Shelter or Wall of Wood) I expect they'll get that part of the portfolio beefed up via splat before too long.
i'm confident neither will be phased out. nature cleric and the druid come at this from two different angles. the cleric is of the people and can navigate, charm, or negotiate with the wilds. whereas if the druid really wants "a region of unspoiled nature" to remain unspoiled then... they're going to sit tight and entertain zero sharing of borders or bridging of gaps. these aren't mirrors of each other. sure, druids can also be leaders of a village and balance elementals or whatnot, but that's really, really cleric adjacent! less of that in the future, please. if you're feeling bad that the two things are being equated it's because they've grown together with neglect. WotC needs to put a little effort into separating druids and clerics (of all stripes) (and rangers too, probably). i've mentioned 'witches' as an intersection between hippy hermit, powerful mage, and steward of the balance of nature. i won't belabor that or get my hopes up, but i mention it to show that there directions yet to explore. just keep watch as you have, and it'll work itself out.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
For the folks who are complaining about Druids lacking power, I cautiously disagree. Would I like a bit more spellcasy flexibility on the Primal list? Sure. Mobility and in-combat position change abilities often useful and not too flashy. And boosting their concentration spells a bit would be fair, esp those level 4 to 6 damages spells.
However, I highly doubt Druids will ever get Lightning Bolt, Fireball, or any of the "BAMF Boom" spells. Nor do I really think they ahould. Druids were known as being OP in 3.5 edition. Sure that was before concentration became a mechanic, but I sense that the devs are leery of making Druids too much like Wizards precisely because of how strong Druids were in 3.5. That's why I think we should be more creative in expanding the definition of "nature" to enable more out-of-the -cubicle ideas rather than using "nature mages" or "nature priests" in a literal way.
Would love druid to get split into a nature mage class and a shapeshifter class. Trying to squeeze them together isn't doing either concept any favours. Maybe different subclasses focusing on turning into different creature types.
But 5e is so utterly terrified of new classes that it's now trying to ruin the warlock by making it into a swordmage, so I have no hope at all for it.
Well... the druid has come a long way since it branched out from the cleric. Just as ranger and barbarian, which used to be fighter subclasses. While divine magic is about healing, protection and clairvoyance in all its forms, primal magic is material, elemental, and tends to work off your surroundings, "amplifying" nature in some ways. Some cleric subclasses have access to destructive spells, but these are just that, specific subclasses.
Personally, I think Druids are more mages than shapeshifters, they are more on the nature side. There was of course Moon Druid in 5E being very wild shape based and that wasn't entirely balanced since they still got full spell progression while also getting wild shape, multi-classing barbarian 3 levels with moon druid got very tanky.
Do I think we need 5 full casters? Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and Bard? Probably not. I do think instead Druid could be made a half-caster with subclasses that are full-casters, that would likely help balance out the moon druid and other shape shifting druid subclasses. So your Circle of the Land Druid is still a full caster and gets full caster progression while Circle of the Moon gets half-caster progression and a simply better wild shape.
Have you played a moon druid? So many comments are about balance and casting plus wildshape, but in game play it's important to understand that the price of wildshape is not being able to cast spells. Moon Druids can wildshape more effectively but that doesn't allow them to be a full caster while wildshaped.
Having a "full caster" class focused on nature seems a no-brainer, and however wildshape works into that it's not any more useful or powerful than other caster's abilities, just a different flavour.
Again, missing the point that wildshape is something that takes away casting ability, so they are already separate states of the druid. They can be used in concert somewhat, but subject to concentration on spells, and I don't think anyone would argue a Druid is stronger than an equal level Wizard or Sorcerer. Wildshape and Druid Mage are not separate. They've been part of the Druid for a very long time.
Yes, I've played Moon Druid in 5E, up to level 9 and certainly at those levels, Moon Druid is overpowered, getting 4th levelled spells and the ability to be tanking damage up front or tossing out spells when situation open up to it. The thing is you can toss out a spell and wild shape in 1 turn as a moon druid, you can toss out a plant growth or moon beam and transform on the same turn. Heck remember one time using conjure animals and being wild shaped myself to get some broken combos and action economy. You might say spell casting and being wild shaped don't go together but moon druid can just drop wild shape to spell cast and only a bonus action to transform again on their next turn; their flexibility and versatility here is exceptional.