Generally speaking D&D is not a PvP game (even if PvP is possible), so balance issues don't get noticed as badly but it definitely unbalances a few classes and would be even worse with the latest implementation of Warlock that multi-classes with way more classes. Hexadin was definitely overpowered, and part of that is definitely getting the full power of Eldritch Blast, for Bard what they sacrifice for what they get is more in-line but for Paladin and Ranger it'll both make them SAD and give them that Eldritch Blast. This said, the Sorlock is a horrendously overpowered creature, since Sorcerer gets quickened spell, allowing them to bonus action cast a stronger spell and then use Eldritch Blast on the same turn, or if you're focusing a single target, you can Eldritch blast twice for up to 8 rays in a single turn, for potentially multiple turns in a row. Of course you don't need to make the dip into Warlock until after you've got level 5 Sorcerer, just to get fireball first, so it's not a tier 1 dip, it's more a tier 2 dip, unlike the Hexadin which is very much a tier 1 dip since need those CHA based attack and damage rolls.
The reason it's more inline for Bard, is Bard has a lot of good concentration spells that they actually want to use which conflicts with Hex and while Eldritch blast outdoes any other cantrips, the amount of damage it'd add isn't going to be equalled out with delayed spell progression.
As someone who has played in groups filled with min/maxers, sorlock, hexadin, etc. are really not overpowered. Those quickened spells are going to cost sorcery points. Even if you wait until T2 for the warlock dip, you are still delaying future spell progression.
Speaking of which; delayed spell progression very much does equal out the EB damage. You are behind a whole spell level for the rest of the campaign, which hurts a lot. As bard, you are also delaying features like magical secrets.
Getting your spells on time matters quite a bit.
For sorcerer maybe, for Paladin, you are only going to basically feel the delayed spell progression every other level (well 2 levels) and most of Paladin's slots usually get used for smiting, where 2 additional 1st level slots that recover on short rest... more than make up for it most of the time. The only real sting you'd get on Paladin really is delaying IDS, not so much for delaying spell casting. For sorcerer, yes it's delayed but 2 sorcery points to be able to do a full spell and Eldritch blast on the same turn really is extremely powerful.
I think you're over selling getting the spells on time actually, getting 3rd level spells yes, it matters a lot because that opens up the first big AoE options like fireball, getting 4th level spells... they aren't that big of a game changer, pretty much the only good ones are all concentration, so you can only benefit from one of them, 5th level.. a few good choices but other than potentially paralysing the BBEG with hold monster, nothing too overly game changing. The first big damage spell that is actually worth using instead of upcasting fireball comes in with Disintegrate, great. Disintegrate which is 6th level, so, level 11. It does an average of of 75 force damage, of course at this point casting a 5th level fireball does an average of 10d6 damage and you add on three rays of Eldritch blast for average 31.5 to get 76.5 average damage.
Of course there are differences between these two options, and it is possible to quicken disintegrate and toss out another cantrip, but no cantrip is as reliable as Eldritch Blast, due to it having multiple rays, it's not just 1 hit or miss and it's average DPR is just higher than other cantrips once Agonizing Blast is in the mix. Fireball too is also guaranteed to cause some damage where disintegrate can fail entirely and do nothing, if it misses.
There are some spells which are nicer to get as soon as possible but I do not buy the argument that delaying spell progression is such a vital thing that the character basically breaks down if they do it. The fact people do multi-class sorcerer and warlock is already counter to that claim. It can be nicer to keep full spell progression but it is over-selling it to say you must get your spells on time, if that were the case, there would be no benefit to being a half-caster, as a half-caster and yet half-casters and even third casters can get utility and power that more than makes up often for not getting other features despite getting their spells many levels later than full casters.
I am going to throw in just 2 cents. The problem isn't so much multiclassing being too strong, rather not enough incentive to STAY warlock. Especially in this iteration where, if you could get agonizing blast + eldritch blast +hex at level 1 full power. Going sorcerer afterwards would get you faster spell progression than staying warlock and better features.
Same with wizard and druid. They needed incentive to keep people monoclass warlock, and they couldn't think of any.
I am going to throw in just 2 cents. The problem isn't so much multiclassing being too strong, rather not enough incentive to STAY warlock. Especially in this iteration where, if you could get agonizing blast + eldritch blast +hex at level 1 full power. Going sorcerer afterwards would get you faster spell progression than staying warlock and better features.
Same with wizard and druid. They needed incentive to keep people monoclass warlock, and they couldn't think of any.
I agree with this. With EB now scaling off Warlock levels it feels like they are expecting people to monoclass Warlock for that feature alone, which is laughable. If they are so hung up on the power of EB I'd be fully on board with WotC nerfing it if it ment they would actually flesh out the class. UA Warlock is a one level dip for Pact of the Blade or.. what? 20 levels to pewpew EBs? How about no..
I am going to throw in just 2 cents. The problem isn't so much multiclassing being too strong, rather not enough incentive to STAY warlock. Especially in this iteration where, if you could get agonizing blast + eldritch blast +hex at level 1 full power. Going sorcerer afterwards would get you faster spell progression than staying warlock and better features.
Same with wizard and druid. They needed incentive to keep people monoclass warlock, and they couldn't think of any.
I agree with this. With EB now scaling off Warlock levels it feels like they are expecting people to monoclass Warlock for that feature alone, which is laughable. If they are so hung up on the power of EB I'd be fully on board with WotC nerfing it if it ment they would actually flesh out the class. UA Warlock is a one level dip for Pact of the Blade or.. what? 20 levels to pewpew EBs? How about no..
That's the issue with this iteration, it fails to be anything that you can't do better with another class as your primary with one level of warlock tacked on as a multi class. Want to be a front liner? 19 levels of paladin 1 of warlock. Ranged DPS? 19 levels of ranger one of warlock. Sturdier caster? 19 levels of wizard one of warlock. Looking for a gish? 19 levels of bard or blade singer and one of warlock. Invocations in the current form are an illusion of choice (there are sets that are required to fill a particular build type) masking a lack of power in the class that makes it worth taking to higher levels.
Sorry for rambling thoughts. I know this is not just HEX and EB but this is on the Mono Class and Multi classing issue.
New Hex Spell Warlock Level 1-8 = +1D6 for one attack Warlock Level 9 - 16 = +2D6 for one attack Warlock Level 17 - 20 = +3D6 to one attack.
Make the Hex spell add to each weapon attack and only once per turn for a spell no matter how many To Hit rolls the spell produces.
Needs minimum of STR or DEX & WIS or CHA or INT (Depending on pact) ***With BLADE Warlock does the extra attack from the pact cantrip add to the Extra attack from fighter class feature. 2 sources (cantrip / Class feature) ***
BLADE Warlock 5 = 2 attacks with +1D6 to one attack BLADE Warlock 5 / Fighter 5 = 2 attacks (4 with surge) with +1D6 to one attack BLADE Warlock 5 / Fighter 11 = 3 attacks (6 with surge) with +1 D6 to one attack
Warlock 1 / Fighter 5 = 2 attacks (4 with surge) with +1D6 HEX for 1 attack. Warlock 1/ Fighter 11 = 3 Attacks (6 with surge) with +1D6 HEX for 1 attack Warlock 1/Fighter 18 = 4 attacks (8 with Surge / 12 with improved surge) with +1D6 HEX for 1 attack
Needs minimum DEX & WIS of 13
Ranger 1 Fighter 5 = 2 attacks (4 with Surge) with Hunters mark for 2 attacks (4 With Surge) Ranger 1/Fighter 11 = 3 attacks (6 with Surge) with hunter's mark for 3 attacks (6 with Surge) Ranger 1/Fighter 18 = 4 attacks (8 with Surge/ 12 with improved surge)) with hunter's mark for 4 attacks (8 with Surge /12 with improved surge)
Sorry for rambling thoughts. I know this is not just HEX and EB but this is on the Mono Class and Multi classing issue.
New Hex Spell Warlock Level 1-8 = +1D6 for one attack Warlock Level 9 - 16 = +2D6 for one attack Warlock Level 17 - 20 = +3D6 to one attack.
Make the Hex spell add to each weapon attack and only once per turn for a spell no matter how many To Hit rolls the spell produces.
Why would hexing people be better for gish builds than caster builds? I'd say hexing people is more classic(all literature warlocks not specifically d&D) spell caster warlock style than stabby dudes.
The old hex worked, I don't think it needed changing outside adding no concentration. But if they are increasing the d6 across levels based on warlock levels is better than spell level on a 1/2 caster lock. If the lock goes back to pact magic I don't think it matters much. Either way whether its spell attack or melee it should use the same attack rate of either per attack or per turn.
Edit to add, I'd consider removing it from spells and just making it a class feature X times per day that scales with level.
That's the issue with this iteration, it fails to be anything that you can't do better with another class as your primary with one level of warlock tacked on as a multi class. Want to be a front liner? 19 levels of paladin 1 of warlock. Ranged DPS? 19 levels of ranger one of warlock. Sturdier caster? 19 levels of wizard one of warlock. Looking for a gish? 19 levels of bard or blade singer and one of warlock. Invocations in the current form are an illusion of choice (there are sets that are required to fill a particular build type) masking a lack of power in the class that makes it worth taking to higher levels.
That isn't accurate.
You don't get invocations with 1 level of warlock and without agonizing blast, eldritch blast doesn't do great damage. The reasons why people take a 1lv dip in warlock is for the Hexblade subclass features, not the baseline warlock or the EB+hex. Even something like Paladin + Hexblade are hard to implement if you aren't starting at about level 6. If you start as a warlock you get to use CHA for attacks but dont get heavy armor, and you are behind on getting extra attack, auras etc. If you start out as a paladin then you need to use STR to hit until you get your warlock level.
Some of the combos you mentioned don't make any sense, what benefit would a ranger get from a warlock dip? Now they need Dex,Wis,Con, and a min 13 Cha too. Why would a wizard take a level in warlock instead of taking 1 level in Artificer first, getting Con save prof, no penalty to spell slots progression along with armor and shields and no need for a min 13 Cha.
Warlock dips are very common but taking extra levels in warlock actually offer a lot at every step and there is a big trade off for not taking another step into warlock at every level up to 5 or 6th. The issue is that Hexblade is incredibly powerful and useful for the 3 other CHA based classes.
That's the issue with this iteration, it fails to be anything that you can't do better with another class as your primary with one level of warlock tacked on as a multi class. Want to be a front liner? 19 levels of paladin 1 of warlock. Ranged DPS? 19 levels of ranger one of warlock. Sturdier caster? 19 levels of wizard one of warlock. Looking for a gish? 19 levels of bard or blade singer and one of warlock. Invocations in the current form are an illusion of choice (there are sets that are required to fill a particular build type) masking a lack of power in the class that makes it worth taking to higher levels.
That isn't accurate.
You don't get invocations with 1 level of warlock and without agonizing blast, eldritch blast doesn't do great damage. The reasons why people take a 1lv dip in warlock is for the Hexblade subclass features, not the baseline warlock or the EB+hex. Even something like Paladin + Hexblade are hard to implement if you aren't starting at about level 6. If you start as a warlock you get to use CHA for attacks but dont get heavy armor, and you are behind on getting extra attack, auras etc. If you start out as a paladin then you need to use STR to hit until you get your warlock level.
Some of the combos you mentioned don't make any sense, what benefit would a ranger get from a warlock dip? Now they need Dex,Wis,Con, and a min 13 Cha too. Why would a wizard take a level in warlock instead of taking 1 level in Artificer first, getting Con save prof, no penalty to spell slots progression along with armor and shields and no need for a min 13 Cha.
Warlock dips are very common but taking extra levels in warlock actually offer a lot at every step and there is a big trade off for not taking another step into warlock at every level up to 5 or 6th. The issue is that Hexblade is incredibly powerful and useful for the 3 other CHA based classes.
That's the issue with this iteration, it fails to be anything that you can't do better with another class as your primary with one level of warlock tacked on as a multi class. Want to be a front liner? 19 levels of paladin 1 of warlock. Ranged DPS? 19 levels of ranger one of warlock. Sturdier caster? 19 levels of wizard one of warlock. Looking for a gish? 19 levels of bard or blade singer and one of warlock. Invocations in the current form are an illusion of choice (there are sets that are required to fill a particular build type) masking a lack of power in the class that makes it worth taking to higher levels.
That isn't accurate.
You don't get invocations with 1 level of warlock and without agonizing blast, eldritch blast doesn't do great damage. The reasons why people take a 1lv dip in warlock is for the Hexblade subclass features, not the baseline warlock or the EB+hex. Even something like Paladin + Hexblade are hard to implement if you aren't starting at about level 6. If you start as a warlock you get to use CHA for attacks but dont get heavy armor, and you are behind on getting extra attack, auras etc. If you start out as a paladin then you need to use STR to hit until you get your warlock level.
Some of the combos you mentioned don't make any sense, what benefit would a ranger get from a warlock dip? Now they need Dex,Wis,Con, and a min 13 Cha too. Why would a wizard take a level in warlock instead of taking 1 level in Artificer first, getting Con save prof, no penalty to spell slots progression along with armor and shields and no need for a min 13 Cha.
Warlock dips are very common but taking extra levels in warlock actually offer a lot at every step and there is a big trade off for not taking another step into warlock at every level up to 5 or 6th. The issue is that Hexblade is incredibly powerful and useful for the 3 other CHA based classes.
That's the issue with this iteration, it fails to be anything that you can't do better with another class as your primary with one level of warlock tacked on as a multi class. Want to be a front liner? 19 levels of paladin 1 of warlock. Ranged DPS? 19 levels of ranger one of warlock. Sturdier caster? 19 levels of wizard one of warlock. Looking for a gish? 19 levels of bard or blade singer and one of warlock. Invocations in the current form are an illusion of choice (there are sets that are required to fill a particular build type) masking a lack of power in the class that makes it worth taking to higher levels.
That isn't accurate.
You don't get invocations with 1 level of warlock and without agonizing blast, eldritch blast doesn't do great damage. The reasons why people take a 1lv dip in warlock is for the Hexblade subclass features, not the baseline warlock or the EB+hex. Even something like Paladin + Hexblade are hard to implement if you aren't starting at about level 6. If you start as a warlock you get to use CHA for attacks but dont get heavy armor, and you are behind on getting extra attack, auras etc. If you start out as a paladin then you need to use STR to hit until you get your warlock level.
Some of the combos you mentioned don't make any sense, what benefit would a ranger get from a warlock dip? Now they need Dex,Wis,Con, and a min 13 Cha too. Why would a wizard take a level in warlock instead of taking 1 level in Artificer first, getting Con save prof, no penalty to spell slots progression along with armor and shields and no need for a min 13 Cha.
Warlock dips are very common but taking extra levels in warlock actually offer a lot at every step and there is a big trade off for not taking another step into warlock at every level up to 5 or 6th. The issue is that Hexblade is incredibly powerful and useful for the 3 other CHA based classes.
New warlock doesn't need a 13 in cha to multiclass. Agonizing blast is available at 2.
So why are you talking about 1 level warlock dips? Without invocations EB is a weak options and definitely doesn't need to be nerfed.
I didn't.
If Eb scaled with character level and not warlock level with this current warlock there would be no reason to continue with warlock past level 2. Other classes have faster spell progression and better features.
If Eb scaled with character level and not warlock level with this current warlock there would be no reason to continue with warlock past level 2. Other classes have faster spell progression and better features.
First you said you only need a 1 level dip -That is not true, you'd need at least 2 to get agonizing blast to EB any good.
Now you said there is no reason to go past level 2 -Also not true, you get the subclass at 3, and then at level 4 you'd have to choose between multiclassing and a feat.
The point I'm making is that eldritch blast scaling with level, not warlock level was never a problem and still wouldn't be one. Now they have made not only EB not scale like other cantrips, but also made hex need to be upcasted in order to do more damage for some reason. To get hex to do 2d6 once per round, you'd need a 3rd level slot, which the new warlocks don't get until level 9 as half casters.
If Eb scaled with character level and not warlock level with this current warlock there would be no reason to continue with warlock past level 2. Other classes have faster spell progression and better features.
First you said you only need a 1 level dip -That is not true, you'd need at least 2 to get agonizing blast to EB any good.
Now you said there is no reason to go past level 2 -Also not true, you get the subclass at 3, and then at level 4 you'd have to choose between multiclassing and a feat.
The point I'm making is that eldritch blast scaling with level, not warlock level was never a problem and still wouldn't be one. Now they have made not only EB not scale like other cantrips, but also made hex need to be upcasted in order to do more damage for some reason. To get hex to do 2d6 once per round, you'd need a 3rd level slot, which the new warlocks don't get until level 9 as half casters.
So what is your subclass providing you that you wouldn't get better from another class?
New Warlock is a half-caster, just multi-class into a full caster and you get better features, and better spell progression. If EB scales with total level and not warlock level you are making a character weaker by staying warlock past 2 MAYBE 3 if there is a banger subclass feature. You are right you aren't getting 3rd level slots until 9. Unless you multi-class and then you can have 3rd level slots at 6, 4th level slots at 8 and 5th level slots by 10. If EB scaled with character level and not warlock level why on earth would you ever stay warlock past 2.
If Eb scaled with character level and not warlock level with this current warlock there would be no reason to continue with warlock past level 2. Other classes have faster spell progression and better features.
First you said you only need a 1 level dip -That is not true, you'd need at least 2 to get agonizing blast to EB any good.
Now you said there is no reason to go past level 2 -Also not true, you get the subclass at 3, and then at level 4 you'd have to choose between multiclassing and a feat.
The point I'm making is that eldritch blast scaling with level, not warlock level was never a problem and still wouldn't be one. Now they have made not only EB not scale like other cantrips, but also made hex need to be upcasted in order to do more damage for some reason. To get hex to do 2d6 once per round, you'd need a 3rd level slot, which the new warlocks don't get until level 9 as half casters.
So what is your subclass providing you that you wouldn't get better from another class?
New Warlock is a half-caster, just multi-class into a full caster and you get better features, and better spell progression. If EB scales with total level and not warlock level you are making a character weaker by staying warlock past 2 MAYBE 3 if there is a banger subclass feature. You are right you aren't getting 3rd level slots until 9. Unless you multi-class and then you can have 3rd level slots at 6, 4th level slots at 8 and 5th level slots by 10. If EB scaled with character level and not warlock level why on earth would you ever stay warlock past 2.
Look at getting a warlock subclass vs what you get by multiclassing into 1st level classes and tell me what is so great? There is a definite reason to keep going warlock vs taking a 1st level in another class.
The thing is this change to EB+hex is so bad that there isn't any reason to multiclass warlock or monoclass warlock.
EB+hex+agonizing put warlocks in a kind of middle of the road area for damage. If you had a slot for Hex, you would do OK damage, not good, just ok. Now hex can't do more than 1d6 at level 5, where it use to do up to 2d6. At level 11 hex use to do up to 3d6, now if up cast you can get it to do 2d6 if you burn a 3rd level slot on it. And where EB use to get 4 bolts at 17 now it just doesn't. And what did warlocks get to compensate? Instead of getting 2 3rd level slots on short rest resets at level 5, they now have to wait until level 9 to get 3rd level spells. Where they use to get mystic acanum as they leveled in place of high level spells, now they have to spend up their invocations to get them.
And they are doing this for no reason. People thinking EB+hex being too strong has never been a thing, and I don't see anything in any of the play test that could make it into an issue.
If Eb scaled with character level and not warlock level with this current warlock there would be no reason to continue with warlock past level 2. Other classes have faster spell progression and better features.
First you said you only need a 1 level dip -That is not true, you'd need at least 2 to get agonizing blast to EB any good.
Now you said there is no reason to go past level 2 -Also not true, you get the subclass at 3, and then at level 4 you'd have to choose between multiclassing and a feat.
The point I'm making is that eldritch blast scaling with level, not warlock level was never a problem and still wouldn't be one. Now they have made not only EB not scale like other cantrips, but also made hex need to be upcasted in order to do more damage for some reason. To get hex to do 2d6 once per round, you'd need a 3rd level slot, which the new warlocks don't get until level 9 as half casters.
So what is your subclass providing you that you wouldn't get better from another class?
New Warlock is a half-caster, just multi-class into a full caster and you get better features, and better spell progression. If EB scales with total level and not warlock level you are making a character weaker by staying warlock past 2 MAYBE 3 if there is a banger subclass feature. You are right you aren't getting 3rd level slots until 9. Unless you multi-class and then you can have 3rd level slots at 6, 4th level slots at 8 and 5th level slots by 10. If EB scaled with character level and not warlock level why on earth would you ever stay warlock past 2.
Look at getting a warlock subclass vs what you get by multiclassing into 1st level classes and tell me what is so great? There is a definite reason to keep going warlock vs taking a 1st level in another class.
The thing is this change to EB+hex is so bad that there isn't any reason to multiclass warlock or monoclass warlock.
EB+hex+agonizing put warlocks in a kind of middle of the road area for damage. If you had a slot for Hex, you would do OK damage, not good, just ok. Now hex can't do more than 1d6 at level 5, where it use to do up to 2d6. At level 11 hex use to do up to 3d6, now if up cast you can get it to do 2d6 if you burn a 3rd level slot on it. And where EB use to get 4 bolts at 17 now it just doesn't. And what did warlocks get to compensate? Instead of getting 2 3rd level slots on short rest resets at level 5, they now have to wait until level 9 to get 3rd level spells. Where they use to get mystic acanum as they leveled in place of high level spells, now they have to spend up their invocations to get them.
And they are doing this for no reason. People thinking EB+hex being too strong has never been a thing, and I don't see anything in any of the play test that could make it into an issue.
Lets see. Sorcerer for another 18 levels gets wish, which they can use with a lower level slot. They get meta magic and at level 4 you will be a 3rd level caster as opposed to staying warlock and effectively still being a second level caster.
If you make EB scale with character level the problem ISNT how strong EB is, the problem is Warlock doesnt have anything to offer except worse spell casting past level 2.
If Eb scaled with character level and not warlock level with this current warlock there would be no reason to continue with warlock past level 2. Other classes have faster spell progression and better features.
First you said you only need a 1 level dip -That is not true, you'd need at least 2 to get agonizing blast to EB any good.
Now you said there is no reason to go past level 2 -Also not true, you get the subclass at 3, and then at level 4 you'd have to choose between multiclassing and a feat.
The point I'm making is that eldritch blast scaling with level, not warlock level was never a problem and still wouldn't be one. Now they have made not only EB not scale like other cantrips, but also made hex need to be upcasted in order to do more damage for some reason. To get hex to do 2d6 once per round, you'd need a 3rd level slot, which the new warlocks don't get until level 9 as half casters.
So what is your subclass providing you that you wouldn't get better from another class?
New Warlock is a half-caster, just multi-class into a full caster and you get better features, and better spell progression. If EB scales with total level and not warlock level you are making a character weaker by staying warlock past 2 MAYBE 3 if there is a banger subclass feature. You are right you aren't getting 3rd level slots until 9. Unless you multi-class and then you can have 3rd level slots at 6, 4th level slots at 8 and 5th level slots by 10. If EB scaled with character level and not warlock level why on earth would you ever stay warlock past 2.
Look at getting a warlock subclass vs what you get by multiclassing into 1st level classes and tell me what is so great? There is a definite reason to keep going warlock vs taking a 1st level in another class.
The thing is this change to EB+hex is so bad that there isn't any reason to multiclass warlock or monoclass warlock.
EB+hex+agonizing put warlocks in a kind of middle of the road area for damage. If you had a slot for Hex, you would do OK damage, not good, just ok. Now hex can't do more than 1d6 at level 5, where it use to do up to 2d6. At level 11 hex use to do up to 3d6, now if up cast you can get it to do 2d6 if you burn a 3rd level slot on it. And where EB use to get 4 bolts at 17 now it just doesn't. And what did warlocks get to compensate? Instead of getting 2 3rd level slots on short rest resets at level 5, they now have to wait until level 9 to get 3rd level spells. Where they use to get mystic acanum as they leveled in place of high level spells, now they have to spend up their invocations to get them.
And they are doing this for no reason. People thinking EB+hex being too strong has never been a thing, and I don't see anything in any of the play test that could make it into an issue.
Lets see. Sorcerer for another 18 levels gets wish, which they can use with a lower level slot. They get meta magic and at level 4 you will be a 3rd level caster as opposed to staying warlock and effectively still being a second level caster.
If you make EB scale with character level the problem ISNT how strong EB is, the problem is Warlock doesnt have anything to offer except worse spell casting past level 2.
wtf? Why are you comparing 18 levels in sorcerer to a 3rd level subclass?
If you take 2 levels in warlock, on your 3rd level your choice is: 3rd level warlock for subclass vs muliclassing for 1st level features of X class.
I think I kind of get what you are saying, which is EB is the one functional part of the new warlock, and outside of that there really isn't any reason to put levels in warlock over other classes if EB didn't scale off warlock levels.
You also said EB isn't strong, and are also saying the rest of warlock is too weak to even consider if you don't need warlock levels to scale EB.
So overall I think we might just both saying the same thing in a different way, which is that this version of warlock kinda sucks.
Generally speaking D&D is not a PvP game (even if PvP is possible), so balance issues don't get noticed as badly but it definitely unbalances a few classes and would be even worse with the latest implementation of Warlock that multi-classes with way more classes. Hexadin was definitely overpowered, and part of that is definitely getting the full power of Eldritch Blast, for Bard what they sacrifice for what they get is more in-line but for Paladin and Ranger it'll both make them SAD and give them that Eldritch Blast. This said, the Sorlock is a horrendously overpowered creature, since Sorcerer gets quickened spell, allowing them to bonus action cast a stronger spell and then use Eldritch Blast on the same turn, or if you're focusing a single target, you can Eldritch blast twice for up to 8 rays in a single turn, for potentially multiple turns in a row. Of course you don't need to make the dip into Warlock until after you've got level 5 Sorcerer, just to get fireball first, so it's not a tier 1 dip, it's more a tier 2 dip, unlike the Hexadin which is very much a tier 1 dip since need those CHA based attack and damage rolls.
The reason it's more inline for Bard, is Bard has a lot of good concentration spells that they actually want to use which conflicts with Hex and while Eldritch blast outdoes any other cantrips, the amount of damage it'd add isn't going to be equalled out with delayed spell progression.
As someone who has played in groups filled with min/maxers, sorlock, hexadin, etc. are really not overpowered. Those quickened spells are going to cost sorcery points. Even if you wait until T2 for the warlock dip, you are still delaying future spell progression.
Speaking of which; delayed spell progression very much does equal out the EB damage. You are behind a whole spell level for the rest of the campaign, which hurts a lot. As bard, you are also delaying features like magical secrets.
Getting your spells on time matters quite a bit.
For sorcerer maybe, for Paladin, you are only going to basically feel the delayed spell progression every other level (well 2 levels) and most of Paladin's slots usually get used for smiting, where 2 additional 1st level slots that recover on short rest... more than make up for it most of the time. The only real sting you'd get on Paladin really is delaying IDS, not so much for delaying spell casting. For sorcerer, yes it's delayed but 2 sorcery points to be able to do a full spell and Eldritch blast on the same turn really is extremely powerful.
I think you're over selling getting the spells on time actually, getting 3rd level spells yes, it matters a lot because that opens up the first big AoE options like fireball, getting 4th level spells... they aren't that big of a game changer, pretty much the only good ones are all concentration, so you can only benefit from one of them, 5th level.. a few good choices but other than potentially paralysing the BBEG with hold monster, nothing too overly game changing. The first big damage spell that is actually worth using instead of upcasting fireball comes in with Disintegrate, great. Disintegrate which is 6th level, so, level 11. It does an average of of 75 force damage, of course at this point casting a 5th level fireball does an average of 10d6 damage and you add on three rays of Eldritch blast for average 31.5 to get 76.5 average damage.
Of course there are differences between these two options, and it is possible to quicken disintegrate and toss out another cantrip, but no cantrip is as reliable as Eldritch Blast, due to it having multiple rays, it's not just 1 hit or miss and it's average DPR is just higher than other cantrips once Agonizing Blast is in the mix. Fireball too is also guaranteed to cause some damage where disintegrate can fail entirely and do nothing, if it misses.
There are some spells which are nicer to get as soon as possible but I do not buy the argument that delaying spell progression is such a vital thing that the character basically breaks down if they do it. The fact people do multi-class sorcerer and warlock is already counter to that claim. It can be nicer to keep full spell progression but it is over-selling it to say you must get your spells on time, if that were the case, there would be no benefit to being a half-caster, as a half-caster and yet half-casters and even third casters can get utility and power that more than makes up often for not getting other features despite getting their spells many levels later than full casters.
For Paladin, the main reason to dip warlock is for SAD, which is now included in the base warlock class.
Also, I am not overselling on getting spells on time. You also missed out on some key 5th level spells such as Wall of Stone, War of Force (you can pick it up as either Clockwork Soul Sorcerer or Bard via Magical Secrets), Synaptic Static, Seeming, Bigby's Hand. 5th level has a plethora of choices that are quite significant; it is not just Hold Monster, which I don't consider reliable. I've done multiple 1-20 campaigns and you really end up feeling that delay in spell progression.
I also never stated it was something characters must get, definitely not to the point where the character breaks down without it, but that it is a significant trade off and it is very much felt (especially at the tier break points). If anything, I think you are underselling the severity of the trade offs for multiclassing.
If Eb scaled with character level and not warlock level with this current warlock there would be no reason to continue with warlock past level 2. Other classes have faster spell progression and better features.
First you said you only need a 1 level dip -That is not true, you'd need at least 2 to get agonizing blast to EB any good.
Now you said there is no reason to go past level 2 -Also not true, you get the subclass at 3, and then at level 4 you'd have to choose between multiclassing and a feat.
The point I'm making is that eldritch blast scaling with level, not warlock level was never a problem and still wouldn't be one. Now they have made not only EB not scale like other cantrips, but also made hex need to be upcasted in order to do more damage for some reason. To get hex to do 2d6 once per round, you'd need a 3rd level slot, which the new warlocks don't get until level 9 as half casters.
So what is your subclass providing you that you wouldn't get better from another class?
New Warlock is a half-caster, just multi-class into a full caster and you get better features, and better spell progression. If EB scales with total level and not warlock level you are making a character weaker by staying warlock past 2 MAYBE 3 if there is a banger subclass feature. You are right you aren't getting 3rd level slots until 9. Unless you multi-class and then you can have 3rd level slots at 6, 4th level slots at 8 and 5th level slots by 10. If EB scaled with character level and not warlock level why on earth would you ever stay warlock past 2.
The thing is this change to EB+hex is so bad that there isn't any reason to multiclass warlock or monoclass warlock.
EB+hex+agonizing put warlocks in a kind of middle of the road area for damage. If you had a slot for Hex, you would do OK damage, not good, just ok. Now hex can't do more than 1d6 at level 5, where it use to do up to 2d6. At level 11 hex use to do up to 3d6, now if up cast you can get it to do 2d6 if you burn a 3rd level slot on it. And where EB use to get 4 bolts at 17 now it just doesn't. And what did warlocks get to compensate? Instead of getting 2 3rd level slots on short rest resets at level 5, they now have to wait until level 9 to get 3rd level spells. Where they use to get mystic acanum as they leveled in place of high level spells, now they have to spend up their invocations to get them.
And they are doing this for no reason. People thinking EB+hex being too strong has never been a thing, and I don't see anything in any of the play test that could make it into an issue.
At level 5, the drop in hex-power isn't so bad because odds are decent you'd only hit one of the Eldritch Blasts anyways, in which case hex would add the same amount of damage. It's definitely a nerf, but not as much as you seem to think. Level 11 is even less of a nerf, since the odds of hitting all three Eldritch Blasts to get the 3d6 are pretty low, and there's always a chance that you only hit one Eldritch Blast, in which case 1D&D hex does more damage. I don't know why you think that EB doesn't get 4 rays at 17th anymore, the spell very clearly says that it does. Anyways, it should probably be 18th because that's when Fighters get 4 attacks, but whatever.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
If Eb scaled with character level and not warlock level with this current warlock there would be no reason to continue with warlock past level 2. Other classes have faster spell progression and better features.
First you said you only need a 1 level dip -That is not true, you'd need at least 2 to get agonizing blast to EB any good.
Now you said there is no reason to go past level 2 -Also not true, you get the subclass at 3, and then at level 4 you'd have to choose between multiclassing and a feat.
The point I'm making is that eldritch blast scaling with level, not warlock level was never a problem and still wouldn't be one. Now they have made not only EB not scale like other cantrips, but also made hex need to be upcasted in order to do more damage for some reason. To get hex to do 2d6 once per round, you'd need a 3rd level slot, which the new warlocks don't get until level 9 as half casters.
So what is your subclass providing you that you wouldn't get better from another class?
New Warlock is a half-caster, just multi-class into a full caster and you get better features, and better spell progression. If EB scales with total level and not warlock level you are making a character weaker by staying warlock past 2 MAYBE 3 if there is a banger subclass feature. You are right you aren't getting 3rd level slots until 9. Unless you multi-class and then you can have 3rd level slots at 6, 4th level slots at 8 and 5th level slots by 10. If EB scaled with character level and not warlock level why on earth would you ever stay warlock past 2.
Look at getting a warlock subclass vs what you get by multiclassing into 1st level classes and tell me what is so great? There is a definite reason to keep going warlock vs taking a 1st level in another class.
The thing is this change to EB+hex is so bad that there isn't any reason to multiclass warlock or monoclass warlock.
EB+hex+agonizing put warlocks in a kind of middle of the road area for damage. If you had a slot for Hex, you would do OK damage, not good, just ok. Now hex can't do more than 1d6 at level 5, where it use to do up to 2d6. At level 11 hex use to do up to 3d6, now if up cast you can get it to do 2d6 if you burn a 3rd level slot on it. And where EB use to get 4 bolts at 17 now it just doesn't. And what did warlocks get to compensate? Instead of getting 2 3rd level slots on short rest resets at level 5, they now have to wait until level 9 to get 3rd level spells. Where they use to get mystic acanum as they leveled in place of high level spells, now they have to spend up their invocations to get them.
And they are doing this for no reason. People thinking EB+hex being too strong has never been a thing, and I don't see anything in any of the play test that could make it into an issue.
Lets see. Sorcerer for another 18 levels gets wish, which they can use with a lower level slot. They get meta magic and at level 4 you will be a 3rd level caster as opposed to staying warlock and effectively still being a second level caster.
If you make EB scale with character level the problem ISNT how strong EB is, the problem is Warlock doesnt have anything to offer except worse spell casting past level 2.
wtf? Why are you comparing 18 levels in sorcerer to a 3rd level subclass?
If you take 2 levels in warlock, on your 3rd level your choice is: 3rd level warlock for subclass vs muliclassing for 1st level features of X class.
I think I kind of get what you are saying, which is EB is the one functional part of the new warlock, and outside of that there really isn't any reason to put levels in warlock over other classes if EB didn't scale off warlock levels.
You also said EB isn't strong, and are also saying the rest of warlock is too weak to even consider if you don't need warlock levels to scale EB.
So overall I think we might just both saying the same thing in a different way, which is that this version of warlock kinda sucks.
And then after your choice at level 3 you go to level 4 and if you picked warlock on the previous choice it is now feat vs level 1 features, but if you picked the other class it is subclass vs 2nd level features. When you choose to dip out doesnt affect just 1 level it affects every level after that.
What is level 3 of warlock providing? 2 first level spells always known that you can cast once without a slot. And fiend is giving occasional 5 temp HP. Is that worth delaying, 2nd level, 3rd level, 4th level ect ect spells. How about delaying the multiclasses 6th level subclass feature.
If EB is not pinned to Warlock levels no one in their right mind who understands the numbers is going to stay warlock past level 2.
Finally this entire conversation shows a grave misunderstanding of what EB is from a MECHANICAL standpoint not a narrative one.
From a mechanical standpoint EB is not a cantrip, it isnt a spell. It is a martial attack. Imagine if fighter, with just a 2 level dip allowed you to get 3 attacks with a long bow at character level 11 without any additional investment in fighter. Now imagine that long bow allowed you to use any stat you wanted for damage and to hit, and than you have EB. You would need absolutely broken higher level features for someone to stay fighter at that point.
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For sorcerer maybe, for Paladin, you are only going to basically feel the delayed spell progression every other level (well 2 levels) and most of Paladin's slots usually get used for smiting, where 2 additional 1st level slots that recover on short rest... more than make up for it most of the time. The only real sting you'd get on Paladin really is delaying IDS, not so much for delaying spell casting. For sorcerer, yes it's delayed but 2 sorcery points to be able to do a full spell and Eldritch blast on the same turn really is extremely powerful.
I think you're over selling getting the spells on time actually, getting 3rd level spells yes, it matters a lot because that opens up the first big AoE options like fireball, getting 4th level spells... they aren't that big of a game changer, pretty much the only good ones are all concentration, so you can only benefit from one of them, 5th level.. a few good choices but other than potentially paralysing the BBEG with hold monster, nothing too overly game changing. The first big damage spell that is actually worth using instead of upcasting fireball comes in with Disintegrate, great. Disintegrate which is 6th level, so, level 11. It does an average of of 75 force damage, of course at this point casting a 5th level fireball does an average of 10d6 damage and you add on three rays of Eldritch blast for average 31.5 to get 76.5 average damage.
Of course there are differences between these two options, and it is possible to quicken disintegrate and toss out another cantrip, but no cantrip is as reliable as Eldritch Blast, due to it having multiple rays, it's not just 1 hit or miss and it's average DPR is just higher than other cantrips once Agonizing Blast is in the mix. Fireball too is also guaranteed to cause some damage where disintegrate can fail entirely and do nothing, if it misses.
There are some spells which are nicer to get as soon as possible but I do not buy the argument that delaying spell progression is such a vital thing that the character basically breaks down if they do it. The fact people do multi-class sorcerer and warlock is already counter to that claim. It can be nicer to keep full spell progression but it is over-selling it to say you must get your spells on time, if that were the case, there would be no benefit to being a half-caster, as a half-caster and yet half-casters and even third casters can get utility and power that more than makes up often for not getting other features despite getting their spells many levels later than full casters.
I am going to throw in just 2 cents. The problem isn't so much multiclassing being too strong, rather not enough incentive to STAY warlock. Especially in this iteration where, if you could get agonizing blast + eldritch blast +hex at level 1 full power. Going sorcerer afterwards would get you faster spell progression than staying warlock and better features.
Same with wizard and druid. They needed incentive to keep people monoclass warlock, and they couldn't think of any.
I agree with this. With EB now scaling off Warlock levels it feels like they are expecting people to monoclass Warlock for that feature alone, which is laughable. If they are so hung up on the power of EB I'd be fully on board with WotC nerfing it if it ment they would actually flesh out the class. UA Warlock is a one level dip for Pact of the Blade or.. what? 20 levels to pewpew EBs? How about no..
That's the issue with this iteration, it fails to be anything that you can't do better with another class as your primary with one level of warlock tacked on as a multi class. Want to be a front liner? 19 levels of paladin 1 of warlock. Ranged DPS? 19 levels of ranger one of warlock. Sturdier caster? 19 levels of wizard one of warlock. Looking for a gish? 19 levels of bard or blade singer and one of warlock. Invocations in the current form are an illusion of choice (there are sets that are required to fill a particular build type) masking a lack of power in the class that makes it worth taking to higher levels.
Sorry for rambling thoughts. I know this is not just HEX and EB but this is on the Mono Class and Multi classing issue.
New Hex Spell
Warlock Level 1-8 = +1D6 for one attack
Warlock Level 9 - 16 = +2D6 for one attack
Warlock Level 17 - 20 = +3D6 to one attack.
Make the Hex spell add to each weapon attack and only once per turn for a spell no matter how many To Hit rolls the spell produces.
Needs minimum of STR or DEX & WIS or CHA or INT (Depending on pact)
***With BLADE Warlock does the extra attack from the pact cantrip add to the Extra attack from fighter class feature. 2 sources (cantrip / Class feature) ***
BLADE Warlock 5 = 2 attacks with +1D6 to one attack
BLADE Warlock 5 / Fighter 5 = 2 attacks (4 with surge) with +1D6 to one attack
BLADE Warlock 5 / Fighter 11 = 3 attacks (6 with surge) with +1 D6 to one attack
Warlock 1 / Fighter 5 = 2 attacks (4 with surge) with +1D6 HEX for 1 attack.
Warlock 1/ Fighter 11 = 3 Attacks (6 with surge) with +1D6 HEX for 1 attack
Warlock 1/Fighter 18 = 4 attacks (8 with Surge / 12 with improved surge) with +1D6 HEX for 1 attack
Needs minimum DEX & WIS of 13
Ranger 1 Fighter 5 = 2 attacks (4 with Surge) with Hunters mark for 2 attacks (4 With Surge)
Ranger 1/Fighter 11 = 3 attacks (6 with Surge) with hunter's mark for 3 attacks (6 with Surge)
Ranger 1/Fighter 18 = 4 attacks (8 with Surge/ 12 with improved surge)) with hunter's mark for 4 attacks (8 with Surge /12 with improved surge)
Will we see a change to Hunter's Mark?
I highly suspect there will be a change to Hunter's Mark from how it is in the current UA b/c it makes the 1-Ranger dip unbelievably good.
They only really needed to bump the no concentration to like level 5.
Why would hexing people be better for gish builds than caster builds? I'd say hexing people is more classic(all literature warlocks not specifically d&D) spell caster warlock style than stabby dudes.
The old hex worked, I don't think it needed changing outside adding no concentration. But if they are increasing the d6 across levels based on warlock levels is better than spell level on a 1/2 caster lock. If the lock goes back to pact magic I don't think it matters much. Either way whether its spell attack or melee it should use the same attack rate of either per attack or per turn.
Edit to add, I'd consider removing it from spells and just making it a class feature X times per day that scales with level.
That isn't accurate.
You don't get invocations with 1 level of warlock and without agonizing blast, eldritch blast doesn't do great damage. The reasons why people take a 1lv dip in warlock is for the Hexblade subclass features, not the baseline warlock or the EB+hex.
Even something like Paladin + Hexblade are hard to implement if you aren't starting at about level 6. If you start as a warlock you get to use CHA for attacks but dont get heavy armor, and you are behind on getting extra attack, auras etc. If you start out as a paladin then you need to use STR to hit until you get your warlock level.
Some of the combos you mentioned don't make any sense, what benefit would a ranger get from a warlock dip? Now they need Dex,Wis,Con, and a min 13 Cha too.
Why would a wizard take a level in warlock instead of taking 1 level in Artificer first, getting Con save prof, no penalty to spell slots progression along with armor and shields and no need for a min 13 Cha.
Warlock dips are very common but taking extra levels in warlock actually offer a lot at every step and there is a big trade off for not taking another step into warlock at every level up to 5 or 6th. The issue is that Hexblade is incredibly powerful and useful for the 3 other CHA based classes.
1 Subclass
2 Invocations +1 spell slot
3 Pact boon, Slot level 2
4 Feat/ASI, cantrip
5 Slot level 3, +invocation
New warlock doesn't need a 13 in cha to multiclass. Agonizing blast is available at 2.
So why are you talking about 1 level warlock dips? Without invocations EB is a weak options and definitely doesn't need to be nerfed.
I didn't.
If Eb scaled with character level and not warlock level with this current warlock there would be no reason to continue with warlock past level 2. Other classes have faster spell progression and better features.
First you said you only need a 1 level dip
-That is not true, you'd need at least 2 to get agonizing blast to EB any good.
Now you said there is no reason to go past level 2
-Also not true, you get the subclass at 3, and then at level 4 you'd have to choose between multiclassing and a feat.
The point I'm making is that eldritch blast scaling with level, not warlock level was never a problem and still wouldn't be one. Now they have made not only EB not scale like other cantrips, but also made hex need to be upcasted in order to do more damage for some reason. To get hex to do 2d6 once per round, you'd need a 3rd level slot, which the new warlocks don't get until level 9 as half casters.
So what is your subclass providing you that you wouldn't get better from another class?
New Warlock is a half-caster, just multi-class into a full caster and you get better features, and better spell progression. If EB scales with total level and not warlock level you are making a character weaker by staying warlock past 2 MAYBE 3 if there is a banger subclass feature. You are right you aren't getting 3rd level slots until 9. Unless you multi-class and then you can have 3rd level slots at 6, 4th level slots at 8 and 5th level slots by 10. If EB scaled with character level and not warlock level why on earth would you ever stay warlock past 2.
Look at getting a warlock subclass vs what you get by multiclassing into 1st level classes and tell me what is so great? There is a definite reason to keep going warlock vs taking a 1st level in another class.
The thing is this change to EB+hex is so bad that there isn't any reason to multiclass warlock or monoclass warlock.
EB+hex+agonizing put warlocks in a kind of middle of the road area for damage. If you had a slot for Hex, you would do OK damage, not good, just ok. Now hex can't do more than 1d6 at level 5, where it use to do up to 2d6. At level 11 hex use to do up to 3d6, now if up cast you can get it to do 2d6 if you burn a 3rd level slot on it. And where EB use to get 4 bolts at 17 now it just doesn't. And what did warlocks get to compensate? Instead of getting 2 3rd level slots on short rest resets at level 5, they now have to wait until level 9 to get 3rd level spells. Where they use to get mystic acanum as they leveled in place of high level spells, now they have to spend up their invocations to get them.
And they are doing this for no reason. People thinking EB+hex being too strong has never been a thing, and I don't see anything in any of the play test that could make it into an issue.
Lets see. Sorcerer for another 18 levels gets wish, which they can use with a lower level slot. They get meta magic and at level 4 you will be a 3rd level caster as opposed to staying warlock and effectively still being a second level caster.
If you make EB scale with character level the problem ISNT how strong EB is, the problem is Warlock doesnt have anything to offer except worse spell casting past level 2.
wtf? Why are you comparing 18 levels in sorcerer to a 3rd level subclass?
If you take 2 levels in warlock, on your 3rd level your choice is:
3rd level warlock for subclass
vs
muliclassing for 1st level features of X class.
I think I kind of get what you are saying, which is EB is the one functional part of the new warlock, and outside of that there really isn't any reason to put levels in warlock over other classes if EB didn't scale off warlock levels.
You also said EB isn't strong, and are also saying the rest of warlock is too weak to even consider if you don't need warlock levels to scale EB.
So overall I think we might just both saying the same thing in a different way, which is that this version of warlock kinda sucks.
For Paladin, the main reason to dip warlock is for SAD, which is now included in the base warlock class.
Also, I am not overselling on getting spells on time. You also missed out on some key 5th level spells such as Wall of Stone, War of Force (you can pick it up as either Clockwork Soul Sorcerer or Bard via Magical Secrets), Synaptic Static, Seeming, Bigby's Hand. 5th level has a plethora of choices that are quite significant; it is not just Hold Monster, which I don't consider reliable. I've done multiple 1-20 campaigns and you really end up feeling that delay in spell progression.
I also never stated it was something characters must get, definitely not to the point where the character breaks down without it, but that it is a significant trade off and it is very much felt (especially at the tier break points). If anything, I think you are underselling the severity of the trade offs for multiclassing.
At level 5, the drop in hex-power isn't so bad because odds are decent you'd only hit one of the Eldritch Blasts anyways, in which case hex would add the same amount of damage. It's definitely a nerf, but not as much as you seem to think. Level 11 is even less of a nerf, since the odds of hitting all three Eldritch Blasts to get the 3d6 are pretty low, and there's always a chance that you only hit one Eldritch Blast, in which case 1D&D hex does more damage. I don't know why you think that EB doesn't get 4 rays at 17th anymore, the spell very clearly says that it does. Anyways, it should probably be 18th because that's when Fighters get 4 attacks, but whatever.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
And then after your choice at level 3 you go to level 4 and if you picked warlock on the previous choice it is now feat vs level 1 features, but if you picked the other class it is subclass vs 2nd level features. When you choose to dip out doesnt affect just 1 level it affects every level after that.
What is level 3 of warlock providing? 2 first level spells always known that you can cast once without a slot. And fiend is giving occasional 5 temp HP. Is that worth delaying, 2nd level, 3rd level, 4th level ect ect spells. How about delaying the multiclasses 6th level subclass feature.
If EB is not pinned to Warlock levels no one in their right mind who understands the numbers is going to stay warlock past level 2.
Finally this entire conversation shows a grave misunderstanding of what EB is from a MECHANICAL standpoint not a narrative one.
From a mechanical standpoint EB is not a cantrip, it isnt a spell. It is a martial attack. Imagine if fighter, with just a 2 level dip allowed you to get 3 attacks with a long bow at character level 11 without any additional investment in fighter. Now imagine that long bow allowed you to use any stat you wanted for damage and to hit, and than you have EB. You would need absolutely broken higher level features for someone to stay fighter at that point.