stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
Hold Monster is a 5th level spell. But none of the Hold spells are a fair comparison because paralyzed is much stronger than stunned and they last for up to a minute. Also it would be a strange and rare circumstance where it’s best to use your action to cure stunned so someone else could use their action. The reason to cure the hold spells is because they could persist. Hold spells will also commonly come from casters with higher save DCs than a Monk’s stunning strike, but since some many classes have access to hold spells that might not always be true.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
Hold Person is cast with the primary combat attribute of the spellcaster since spellcasters use their spellcasting attribute in combat. Monks have to use their non-combat attribute to set save DC (except for Astral Self monks).
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
In normal lower level encounters against a generic group of monsters, Stunning Strike doesn't terribly change the encounter. The problem is that when up against a powerful enemy such as a BBEG or a powerful monster, it essentially turns that monster "off." These powerful enemies usually have counterplay options to spellcasters - resistance to magical effects, improved saves vs magical effects, Legendary Resistance and a host of minions to break a caster's concentration. Stunning Strike bypasses all of these issues except Legendary Resistance, and it can potentially be used far more frequently even at low levels.
The potential outcome of Stunning Strike is so powerful that it warps the entire class around this one ability that is thereafter ignored for the remaining 15 levels of play. Because of this, the next 15 levels are woefully under-developed and railroad you into a strict ASI progression to maximize the chances of a successful Stunning Strike.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
your analysis that they roughly equal in value makes no sense to me..
hold monster gives paralyze, which gives guaranteed crits on any attack that lands. That is a substantial power boost on that basis alone. This essentially doubles spell attacks, and adds 30-50% damage for weapons.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
your analysis that they roughly equal in value makes no sense to me..
hold monster gives paralyze, which gives guaranteed crits on any attack that lands. That is a substantial power boost on that basis alone. This essentially doubles spell attacks, and adds 30-50% damage for weapons.
hold monster targets a weaker save
hold monster can last more than one turn.
(1) You are incorrect, only attacks within 5ft are auto-crits on a paralyzed creature, which means there is like 2 spells in the whole game that can get auto-crits. (2) While Hold Monster could last more than one round, I have never ever seen it last more than 1 round because the enemies very logically focus fire on the caster of Hold Monster to break their concentration. Or an enemy caster will end it on their turn through Dispel Magic, or Lesser Restoration.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
your analysis that they roughly equal in value makes no sense to me..
hold monster gives paralyze, which gives guaranteed crits on any attack that lands. That is a substantial power boost on that basis alone. This essentially doubles spell attacks, and adds 30-50% damage for weapons.
hold monster targets a weaker save
hold monster can last more than one turn.
(1) You are incorrect, only attacks within 5ft are auto-crits on a paralyzed creature, which means there is like 2 spells in the whole game that can get auto-crits. (2) While Hold Monster could last more than one round, I have never ever seen it last more than 1 round because the enemies very logically focus fire on the caster of Hold Monster to break their concentration. Or an enemy caster will end it on their turn through Dispel Magic, or Lesser Restoration.
uh, anyone can be within five ft of the enemy. I would get close for double damage. It doesnt say melee attacks it says five feet range. Scorching ray critical is pretty strong at any level. And its a spell meant to set up team dps.
you apparently engage in fights where the monsters have every thing they need to do whatever they want in all situations, because many monsters and encounters couldn't or wouldbt focus a caster in one turn. Your casters are also surprisingly paper, because casters i see, who go concentration, are extremely difficult to break concentration. I was tanking like a champ on sorcerer and bard with concentration spells.
uh, anyone can be within five ft of the enemy. I would get close for double damage. It doesnt say melee attacks it says five feet range. Scorching ray critical is pretty strong at any level. And its a spell meant to set up team dps.
you apparently engage in fights where the monsters have every thing they need to do whatever they want in all situations, because many monsters and encounters couldn't or wouldbt focus a caster in one turn. Your casters are also surprisingly paper, because casters i see, who go concentration, are extremely difficult to break concentration. I was tanking like a champ on sorcerer and bard with concentration spells.
That could certainly be the case, but we tend to play almost exclusively Deadly combats because you kind of need to for short adventuring days to feel challenging, so the average enemy round can drop any character to 0 hp if the enemies focus fire.
Mathematically, stunning strike is usually more valuable than an extra use of flurry of blows when the target is CR 3 or higher (though it varies somewhat with the monster); it's not worthwhile on chaff.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
I don't know that I'd call 29% (13/45) of their core spell list outliers. It's certainly not any way I've ever seen the word used before, but I suppose that's beside the point. The 2014 version of Banishing Smite never forced a saving throw. Charisma is still the second-most-important ability score for paladins. It affects not only it's spell save DC, but also the number of spells it can prepare, the relative strength of Aura of Protection, and one of its two saving throw proficiencies.
Sorry for the rabbit trail, but why so dismissive of secondary statistics? Whether it's the monk's Wisdom or the paladin's Charisma, both are important to their respective classes. Again, allow me to repeat my point...this time, in context.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Since others keep bringing up hold spells, I would think this seems rather apropos.
A lot of the reason attack is higher priority than save DC is because physical attack stats generally add to both damage and success chance, whereas save modifiers only affect success chance. For a first level fighter attacking with a d8 weapon and dueling fighting style, going from a 14 strength to a 16 changes your damage from +4/1d8+4 to +5/1d8+5. Against an AC 12 target, the first is 5.75 damage on average, the second is 6.875 damage (+20%) average damage. By comparison, going from save stat 14 to Int 16 against a target with a +0 save is
+9% (55% -> 60%) on an effect that is save negates, such as command
+3% (average effect 77.5% -> 80%) on an effect that is save for half, such as burning hands
+23% (average duration 1.22 -> 1.50) on an effect that is save ends, such as hideous laughter (though a lot of the difference in duration is caused by a long tail that rarely matters in combat; if you only count the first two turns it's 0.8525 -> 0.96, or +12%).
Thus, other than save ends effects, which there aren't a ton of on half-caster lists (though there are outliers such as hold person on oath of vengeance) it's really not that critical to crank up save DC.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
I don't know that I'd call 29% (13/45) of their core spell list outliers. It's certainly not any way I've ever seen the word used before, but I suppose that's beside the point. The 2014 version of Banishing Smite never forced a saving throw. Charisma is still the second-most-important ability score for paladins. It affects not only it's spell save DC, but also the number of spells it can prepare, the relative strength of Aura of Protection, and one of its two saving throw proficiencies.
Sorry for the rabbit trail, but why so dismissive of secondary statistics? Whether it's the monk's Wisdom or the paladin's Charisma, both are important to their respective classes. Again, allow me to repeat my point...this time, in context.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Since others keep bringing up hold spells, I would think this seems rather apropos.
Ok but I wasn't bringing up hold spells. I was bringing up secondary stats.
In UA6, nearly all of the Paladin spells with a save DC listed are subclass spells. There is no other Paladin besides Vengeance in UA6 that has save DC spells like Hold Person or Hold Monster. Most generic Paladin spells do not have a save DC at all. The generic Paladin is not balanced around it's extensive selection of spells with save DCs. The Paladin is balanced around it's collection of Smite spells, which are massive Nova damage dealers.
The Monk, as a core class, is entirely balanced around the 5th level feature Stunning Strike. The core Monk is balanced around it. The Shadow Monk is balanced around it. Mercy. Astral Self. Long Death. Four Elements. Sunsoul. They are *all* balanced around every Monk potentially inflicting the Stunned condition multiple times per rest. But unlike other classes that build this much around a single feature, this feature is dependent on 2 different attributes to inflict in 90% of all cases (Astral Self being the single exception with its ability to attack with Wisdom). So you have something like a 60% chance to hit on average in the first place, and then only a roughly 50% chance at best to inflict Stunned when they made a saving throw against Monk Wisdom. And that's only if you optimize your attribute distribution and ASIs.
Monk players have on average a 30% chance or less to successfully inflict the Stunned condition. This is why the 2014 PHB allowed players to SS with every melee attack - it was the only reliable way to get a Stunning Strike through at all. But now the Monk has been de facto nerfed because 99% chance was too much. However 30% or less is almost useless. This would be fixed a bit better if players could invest a single attribute into both their attack and save DC like the other battlefield controllers (nearly all full spellcasters) who can raise their main attribute every 4 levels. Instead Monk must hope that whichever attribute deficiency it is currently dealing with is not the one which will soon it's next Stunning Strike attempt.
Just going to say that with the only once per turn factor the hit chance of the attacks is not super relevant for whether or not stunning strike lands. Only one attack needs to land and then you spend the ki point, you don't spend it before hand. So the only % that is really relevant is the % chance for them to fail the save. This was slightly different before because it could be used on every attack so the odds of landing it would go much higher than just the % one try. Either way con is usually one of the highest saves and one of the highest stats for monsters meaning even with max dedication the odds of landing it is still 50%. However, the monks power with this feature is to gauge when and when not to use it. If you are fighting a big beefy guy, probably don't use it on him. If you see a spell caster go shut it down with stunning strike, they historically have very low con saves.
Edit: further there is the issue where there isn't much, if anything, in terms of magic items that can boost the monk's DC's. But there are magic items to boost attacks. Honestly, it is why sometimes i feel boosting wisdom is more important than boosting dex, because you have enough attacks that one is going to land and wisdom bumps your AC just as much as dex does anyway, you are never going to out damage the other martials anyway that stunning strike is the whole reason for the class in its current iteration as far as I can tell.
Change to a wisdom-based spellcaster (probably half) with some special abilities that boost functioning as desired -- for example, might be "monk spells that normally take an action to cast, when cast on the monk and no other targets, may be cast as a bonus action".
Unarmored Defense -> Mage Armor on spell list.
Flurry of Blows -> new custom spell.
Patient Defense -> Shield of Faith on spell list.. Or a new spell. Or Shield.
Step of the Wind -> Expeditious Retreat on spell list..
Unarmored Movement -> Longstrider on spell list.
Deflect Missiles -> Shield on spell list (or a new spell)
Slow Fall -> Feather Fall on spell list.
Stunning Strike -> new Smite type spell.
Acrobatic Movement -> Spider Climb and Walk on Water on spell list.
Self-Restoration -> Lesser Restoration on spell list.
Deflect Energy -> Mostly covered by Shield, but we can add Absorb Elements or Protection from Energy to the spell list.
The ease of doing this mapping ... says something about the martial/caster divide.
I really like the idea of monk as half caster with a few monk custom spells. Since other half casters are also MAD it fits with precedent. Spell slots are great to make up for the lack of feats monk can take. Spell slots are a tried, tested and true resource pool where ki/discipline points are a BIG work in progress. I would be quite happy if they blew up the monk and made them a half caster.
I rather like the idea of the Monk as a half martial / half caster. And it parallels the broad strokes comparison of the Monk and Paladin (spiritual monastic warriors).
And since so many of those spells are Arcane, it would also do well as the “missing” Martial/Arcane hybrid class.
I think ss dominating the power budget of monks is one reason they suck.
id rather they put in on a subclass or make it an option. A monk having to be a stun Bot is kind of lame especially cause a caster has better control and doesn't lose the ability to have damage in Exhange .
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
I don't know that I'd call 29% (13/45) of their core spell list outliers. It's certainly not any way I've ever seen the word used before, but I suppose that's beside the point. The 2014 version of Banishing Smite never forced a saving throw. Charisma is still the second-most-important ability score for paladins. It affects not only it's spell save DC, but also the number of spells it can prepare, the relative strength of Aura of Protection, and one of its two saving throw proficiencies.
Sorry for the rabbit trail, but why so dismissive of secondary statistics? Whether it's the monk's Wisdom or the paladin's Charisma, both are important to their respective classes. Again, allow me to repeat my point...this time, in context.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Since others keep bringing up hold spells, I would think this seems rather apropos.
Ok but I wasn't bringing up hold spells. I was bringing up secondary stats.
In UA6, nearly all of the Paladin spells with a save DC listed are subclass spells. There is no other Paladin besides Vengeance in UA6 that has save DC spells like Hold Person or Hold Monster. Most generic Paladin spells do not have a save DC at all. The generic Paladin is not balanced around it's extensive selection of spells with save DCs. The Paladin is balanced around it's collection of Smite spells, which are massive Nova damage dealers.
The Monk, as a core class, is entirely balanced around the 5th level feature Stunning Strike. The core Monk is balanced around it. The Shadow Monk is balanced around it. Mercy. Astral Self. Long Death. Four Elements. Sunsoul. They are *all* balanced around every Monk potentially inflicting the Stunned condition multiple times per rest. But unlike other classes that build this much around a single feature, this feature is dependent on 2 different attributes to inflict in 90% of all cases (Astral Self being the single exception with its ability to attack with Wisdom). So you have something like a 60% chance to hit on average in the first place, and then only a roughly 50% chance at best to inflict Stunned when they made a saving throw against Monk Wisdom. And that's only if you optimize your attribute distribution and ASIs.
Monk players have on average a 30% chance or less to successfully inflict the Stunned condition. This is why the 2014 PHB allowed players to SS with every melee attack - it was the only reliable way to get a Stunning Strike through at all. But now the Monk has been de facto nerfed because 99% chance was too much. However 30% or less is almost useless. This would be fixed a bit better if players could invest a single attribute into both their attack and save DC like the other battlefield controllers (nearly all full spellcasters) who can raise their main attribute every 4 levels. Instead Monk must hope that whichever attribute deficiency it is currently dealing with is not the one which will soon it's next Stunning Strike attempt.
No, you weren't bringing up hold spells. You've been dismissing them, and spellcasting in general, out of hand. You aren't engaging in the same conversation as everyone else is.
And you're dead wrong about the spell lists for paladin subclasses in UA6. The Oath of Vengeance has three, excluding Hold Person and Hold Monster. Oath of the Ancients has three such spells. Hell, even Oath of Glory has one. And this is before we start including any uses of Channel Divinity which force a saving throw.
I have to hand it to you. The sheer confidence with which you're spitting falsehoods, whether you intend to or not, is impressive. Having said that, it's making it rather difficult to take your other tanking points seriously.
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Hold Monster is a 5th level spell. But none of the Hold spells are a fair comparison because paralyzed is much stronger than stunned and they last for up to a minute. Also it would be a strange and rare circumstance where it’s best to use your action to cure stunned so someone else could use their action. The reason to cure the hold spells is because they could persist. Hold spells will also commonly come from casters with higher save DCs than a Monk’s stunning strike, but since some many classes have access to hold spells that might not always be true.
Hold Person is cast with the primary combat attribute of the spellcaster since spellcasters use their spellcasting attribute in combat. Monks have to use their non-combat attribute to set save DC (except for Astral Self monks).
In normal lower level encounters against a generic group of monsters, Stunning Strike doesn't terribly change the encounter. The problem is that when up against a powerful enemy such as a BBEG or a powerful monster, it essentially turns that monster "off." These powerful enemies usually have counterplay options to spellcasters - resistance to magical effects, improved saves vs magical effects, Legendary Resistance and a host of minions to break a caster's concentration. Stunning Strike bypasses all of these issues except Legendary Resistance, and it can potentially be used far more frequently even at low levels.
The potential outcome of Stunning Strike is so powerful that it warps the entire class around this one ability that is thereafter ignored for the remaining 15 levels of play. Because of this, the next 15 levels are woefully under-developed and railroad you into a strict ASI progression to maximize the chances of a successful Stunning Strike.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
your analysis that they roughly equal in value makes no sense to me..
hold monster gives paralyze, which gives guaranteed crits on any attack that lands. That is a substantial power boost on that basis alone. This essentially doubles spell attacks, and adds 30-50% damage for weapons.
hold monster targets a weaker save
hold monster can last more than one turn.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
(1) You are incorrect, only attacks within 5ft are auto-crits on a paralyzed creature, which means there is like 2 spells in the whole game that can get auto-crits.
(2) While Hold Monster could last more than one round, I have never ever seen it last more than 1 round because the enemies very logically focus fire on the caster of Hold Monster to break their concentration. Or an enemy caster will end it on their turn through Dispel Magic, or Lesser Restoration.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
Paladins have smite slots, not spell slots. If you're using your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
uh, anyone can be within five ft of the enemy. I would get close for double damage. It doesnt say melee attacks it says five feet range. Scorching ray critical is pretty strong at any level. And its a spell meant to set up team dps.
you apparently engage in fights where the monsters have every thing they need to do whatever they want in all situations, because many monsters and encounters couldn't or wouldbt focus a caster in one turn. Your casters are also surprisingly paper, because casters i see, who go concentration, are extremely difficult to break concentration. I was tanking like a champ on sorcerer and bard with concentration spells.
That could certainly be the case, but we tend to play almost exclusively Deadly combats because you kind of need to for short adventuring days to feel challenging, so the average enemy round can drop any character to 0 hp if the enemies focus fire.
Mathematically, stunning strike is usually more valuable than an extra use of flurry of blows when the target is CR 3 or higher (though it varies somewhat with the monster); it's not worthwhile on chaff.
I don't know that I'd call 29% (13/45) of their core spell list outliers. It's certainly not any way I've ever seen the word used before, but I suppose that's beside the point. The 2014 version of Banishing Smite never forced a saving throw. Charisma is still the second-most-important ability score for paladins. It affects not only it's spell save DC, but also the number of spells it can prepare, the relative strength of Aura of Protection, and one of its two saving throw proficiencies.
Sorry for the rabbit trail, but why so dismissive of secondary statistics? Whether it's the monk's Wisdom or the paladin's Charisma, both are important to their respective classes. Again, allow me to repeat my point...this time, in context.
Since others keep bringing up hold spells, I would think this seems rather apropos.
A lot of the reason attack is higher priority than save DC is because physical attack stats generally add to both damage and success chance, whereas save modifiers only affect success chance. For a first level fighter attacking with a d8 weapon and dueling fighting style, going from a 14 strength to a 16 changes your damage from +4/1d8+4 to +5/1d8+5. Against an AC 12 target, the first is 5.75 damage on average, the second is 6.875 damage (+20%) average damage. By comparison, going from save stat 14 to Int 16 against a target with a +0 save is
Thus, other than save ends effects, which there aren't a ton of on half-caster lists (though there are outliers such as hold person on oath of vengeance) it's really not that critical to crank up save DC.
Ok but I wasn't bringing up hold spells. I was bringing up secondary stats.
In UA6, nearly all of the Paladin spells with a save DC listed are subclass spells. There is no other Paladin besides Vengeance in UA6 that has save DC spells like Hold Person or Hold Monster. Most generic Paladin spells do not have a save DC at all. The generic Paladin is not balanced around it's extensive selection of spells with save DCs. The Paladin is balanced around it's collection of Smite spells, which are massive Nova damage dealers.
The Monk, as a core class, is entirely balanced around the 5th level feature Stunning Strike. The core Monk is balanced around it. The Shadow Monk is balanced around it. Mercy. Astral Self. Long Death. Four Elements. Sunsoul. They are *all* balanced around every Monk potentially inflicting the Stunned condition multiple times per rest. But unlike other classes that build this much around a single feature, this feature is dependent on 2 different attributes to inflict in 90% of all cases (Astral Self being the single exception with its ability to attack with Wisdom). So you have something like a 60% chance to hit on average in the first place, and then only a roughly 50% chance at best to inflict Stunned when they made a saving throw against Monk Wisdom. And that's only if you optimize your attribute distribution and ASIs.
Monk players have on average a 30% chance or less to successfully inflict the Stunned condition. This is why the 2014 PHB allowed players to SS with every melee attack - it was the only reliable way to get a Stunning Strike through at all. But now the Monk has been de facto nerfed because 99% chance was too much. However 30% or less is almost useless. This would be fixed a bit better if players could invest a single attribute into both their attack and save DC like the other battlefield controllers (nearly all full spellcasters) who can raise their main attribute every 4 levels. Instead Monk must hope that whichever attribute deficiency it is currently dealing with is not the one which will soon it's next Stunning Strike attempt.
Just going to say that with the only once per turn factor the hit chance of the attacks is not super relevant for whether or not stunning strike lands. Only one attack needs to land and then you spend the ki point, you don't spend it before hand. So the only % that is really relevant is the % chance for them to fail the save. This was slightly different before because it could be used on every attack so the odds of landing it would go much higher than just the % one try. Either way con is usually one of the highest saves and one of the highest stats for monsters meaning even with max dedication the odds of landing it is still 50%. However, the monks power with this feature is to gauge when and when not to use it. If you are fighting a big beefy guy, probably don't use it on him. If you see a spell caster go shut it down with stunning strike, they historically have very low con saves.
Edit: further there is the issue where there isn't much, if anything, in terms of magic items that can boost the monk's DC's. But there are magic items to boost attacks. Honestly, it is why sometimes i feel boosting wisdom is more important than boosting dex, because you have enough attacks that one is going to land and wisdom bumps your AC just as much as dex does anyway, you are never going to out damage the other martials anyway that stunning strike is the whole reason for the class in its current iteration as far as I can tell.
I rather like the idea of the Monk as a half martial / half caster. And it parallels the broad strokes comparison of the Monk and Paladin (spiritual monastic warriors).
And since so many of those spells are Arcane, it would also do well as the “missing” Martial/Arcane hybrid class.
I think ss dominating the power budget of monks is one reason they suck.
id rather they put in on a subclass or make it an option. A monk having to be a stun Bot is kind of lame especially cause a caster has better control and doesn't lose the ability to have damage in Exhange .
It IS comparable to a 4th level spell, but not that spell.
Staggering Smite is Stunning Strike plus extra damage.
No, you weren't bringing up hold spells. You've been dismissing them, and spellcasting in general, out of hand. You aren't engaging in the same conversation as everyone else is.
And you're dead wrong about the spell lists for paladin subclasses in UA6. The Oath of Vengeance has three, excluding Hold Person and Hold Monster. Oath of the Ancients has three such spells. Hell, even Oath of Glory has one. And this is before we start including any uses of Channel Divinity which force a saving throw.
I have to hand it to you. The sheer confidence with which you're spitting falsehoods, whether you intend to or not, is impressive. Having said that, it's making it rather difficult to take your other tanking points seriously.