It’s always helpful to see what others want out of the Monk class. I can see places were you took ideas that were previously posted. I saw some fresh ideas in there I liked and some I was toying with myself this morning. Let’s start with what I think is Bad so I can end with the Good.
BAD
Most people want more damage out of the monk, the d6 to d12 scaling will never achieve this goal. (More on this later)
You added another feature to level 1 which has a bunch of features already. Moving it to 2nd Level fixes that problem.
I don’t like Redirect Strike, but I think it is just a me thing. I think I associate it with uncanny dodge, but it’s different enough to be its own thing. It’s not bad, it’s me.
Discipline Attack could just be called Focused Aim straight out of Tasha’s. With 3 features at 3rd level this is looking feature heavy.
Enhanced Metabolism is looking too strong on your Monk (more on this later)
Pulverizing Strikes is overpowered compared to the other choices and if a person doesn’t choose this and Quick Martial Arts they are playing your Monk wrong. 5 attacks with 2d8 is far better than 6 attacks with 1d8 and eventually we are talking about 2d12.
The fact that some of those options have prerequisites is bad. Remember this was a first level choice effecting a 10th level choice.
Having a Feature at 11th breaks typical Monk design. Even Tasha’s doesn’t do that. Monks only get a subclass feature at 11th.
You 15th level Perfect Discipline should read you no longer need to track Discipline points unless you avoided the Wisdom modifier completely. Also with Enhanced Metabolism giving you a one minute short rest. If you have too many points there is no point in tracking points.
Your Capstone is just a clone of the Barbarian capstone and that’s boring.
Medium
Anything I didn’t directly mention is okay
Good
Martial Styles are cool, but aI would move them to 2nd level.
Using movement as a resource is a great idea. I think you used it for a type of disengage and an attack power up. A lot could be done with this considering the monks movement is often wasted in dungeons.
I liked using Wisdom for Charisma checks, but 14th is far too late
My best guess is wotc thought stunning strike was so overpowered they needed to cut back a bit but went too far. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. With one or two exceptions, ever notice how all the monk level 6 subclass features are all fairly weak? I think they do that deliberately to rebalance stunning strike at level 5.
If you mean in the UA, well, Elements kinda got the short end of the stick since its damage is kinda low, but at least the subclass is functional now; Shadow Step is still the same since it has always been good (even more so now that you can see in your own Darkness), so why change it? And Hand... rather than the short end of the stick, it wasn't even handed a stick to begin with; if the UA Stunning Strike is better or more useful than what the subclass offers at level 3 and 6, then the subclass is not worth it.
I was referring to most of the currently published 5e monk features at 6th level. Not UA. Visage of astral self, wings unfurled, one with the blade, searing arc strike etc... physicians touch is decent, but for the most part it seems like in the past they have deliberatly kept level 6 monk subclass features on the weak side. Or it could just be that the monk designers are just bad all around....
-a return to monk weapons, but the martial arts die goes back to start at 1d4 and scales to 1d10. (This means the nick attack now scales better.)
-tashas dedicated weapon, Maybe even ki fueled attack
-Deflect missiles goes back to an attack roll and does not cost a ki point!
-A Brand new 20th level capstone.
Thats it. Nothing else.
What we won't see is:
-an increase in ki.
-moving heightened metabolism to level 2.
-any changes to unarmored AC, hit dice or anything else like a reaction parry that would help the monks defense in melee
-there will be no weapon masteries added to unarmed strikes (except for perhaps in a new version of open hand technique).
-No dexterity as save dc for grapple and shoves
-stunning strike will not go back to the previous version
-there will be no returning to poison immunity
-any unclogging of the bonus action
Open Hand Monk
Open hand technique will get some weapon mastery options added to unarmed strikes. BUT…. it will only work with flurry of blows so you will still have to pay a ki for it when fighters will still weapon masteries for free.
Wholeness of body will have either the ki cost or the restriction on number of uses removed but otherwise the healing amount will be the same as previous UA.
Fleet step. This will be rewritten as a new feature.
Quivering palm. Status quo.
I realky hope they bring in something new to the main monk class as clearly the monk feedback was not very good. But since i believe that wotc truly does not get the monk, that is about the best i think we can expect.
I hate that I believe you are correct. I’m finishing up another mock up monk with new ideas from post on this thread and I know it’s futile. It’s just something to do while passing the time. I think a major problem WotC has is that we the players don’t have a consensus of what we want the Monk to be. Some of us want skirmishers, some of us want anime characters, some of us want Bruce Lee, some of us want an improved version of 3e monk, and some of us want something completely different than all of this.
If they would improve other aspects of the Monk I would be okay with stunning strike becoming a once per short rest ability. That would be a drastic change from 5e so I don’t see that happening. I think you are correct in your predictions.
-a return to monk weapons, but the martial arts die goes back to start at 1d4 and scales to 1d10. (This means the nick attack now scales better.)
-tashas dedicated weapon, Maybe even ki fueled attack
-Deflect missiles goes back to an attack roll and does not cost a ki point!
-A Brand new 20th level capstone.
Thats it. Nothing else.
What we won't see is:
-an increase in ki.
-moving heightened metabolism to level 2.
-any changes to unarmored AC, hit dice or anything else like a reaction parry that would help the monks defense in melee
-there will be no weapon masteries added to unarmed strikes (except for perhaps in a new version of open hand technique).
-No dexterity as save dc for grapple and shoves
-stunning strike will not go back to the previous version
-there will be no returning to poison immunity
-any unclogging of the bonus action
Open Hand Monk
Open hand technique will get some weapon mastery options added to unarmed strikes. BUT…. it will only work with flurry of blows so you will still have to pay a ki for it when fighters will still weapon masteries for free.
Wholeness of body will have either the ki cost or the restriction on number of uses removed but otherwise the healing amount will be the same as previous UA.
Fleet step. This will be rewritten as a new feature.
Quivering palm. Status quo.
I realky hope they bring in something new to the main monk class as clearly the monk feedback was not very good. But since i believe that wotc truly does not get the monk, that is about the best i think we can expect.
What are your predictions?
if that is all they give ill be pissed. they need a proper buff
-a return to monk weapons, but the martial arts die goes back to start at 1d4 and scales to 1d10. (This means the nick attack now scales better.)
-tashas dedicated weapon, Maybe even ki fueled attack
-Deflect missiles goes back to an attack roll and does not cost a ki point!
-A Brand new 20th level capstone.
Thats it. Nothing else.
What we won't see is:
-an increase in ki.
-moving heightened metabolism to level 2.
-any changes to unarmored AC, hit dice or anything else like a reaction parry that would help the monks defense in melee
-there will be no weapon masteries added to unarmed strikes (except for perhaps in a new version of open hand technique).
-No dexterity as save dc for grapple and shoves
-stunning strike will not go back to the previous version
-there will be no returning to poison immunity
-any unclogging of the bonus action
Open Hand Monk
Open hand technique will get some weapon mastery options added to unarmed strikes. BUT…. it will only work with flurry of blows so you will still have to pay a ki for it when fighters will still weapon masteries for free.
Wholeness of body will have either the ki cost or the restriction on number of uses removed but otherwise the healing amount will be the same as previous UA.
Fleet step. This will be rewritten as a new feature.
Quivering palm. Status quo.
I realky hope they bring in something new to the main monk class as clearly the monk feedback was not very good. But since i believe that wotc truly does not get the monk, that is about the best i think we can expect.
What are your predictions?
they basically said they are going to make metabolism occur earlier, and have its power scale. like warlock. They also said they would be looking for places to reduce ki costs in general.
I hate that I believe you are correct. I’m finishing up another mock up monk with new ideas from post on this thread and I know it’s futile. It’s just something to do while passing the time. I think a major problem WotC has is that we the players don’t have a consensus of what we want the Monk to be. Some of us want skirmishers, some of us want anime characters, some of us want Bruce Lee, some of us want an improved version of 3e monk, and some of us want something completely different than all of this.
If they would improve other aspects of the Monk I would be okay with stunning strike becoming a once per short rest ability. That would be a drastic change from 5e so I don’t see that happening. I think you are correct in your predictions.
You are correct. There are so many variations on what people think a monk is, it does make it difficult to design for. Thats why i think customization options in the basic monk class would be great. But that would require a complete re design and they will never fo that.
-a return to monk weapons, but the martial arts die goes back to start at 1d4 and scales to 1d10. (This means the nick attack now scales better.)
-tashas dedicated weapon, Maybe even ki fueled attack
-Deflect missiles goes back to an attack roll and does not cost a ki point!
-A Brand new 20th level capstone.
Thats it. Nothing else.
What we won't see is:
-an increase in ki.
-moving heightened metabolism to level 2.
-any changes to unarmored AC, hit dice or anything else like a reaction parry that would help the monks defense in melee
-there will be no weapon masteries added to unarmed strikes (except for perhaps in a new version of open hand technique).
-No dexterity as save dc for grapple and shoves
-stunning strike will not go back to the previous version
-there will be no returning to poison immunity
-any unclogging of the bonus action
Open Hand Monk
Open hand technique will get some weapon mastery options added to unarmed strikes. BUT…. it will only work with flurry of blows so you will still have to pay a ki for it when fighters will still weapon masteries for free.
Wholeness of body will have either the ki cost or the restriction on number of uses removed but otherwise the healing amount will be the same as previous UA.
Fleet step. This will be rewritten as a new feature.
Quivering palm. Status quo.
I realky hope they bring in something new to the main monk class as clearly the monk feedback was not very good. But since i believe that wotc truly does not get the monk, that is about the best i think we can expect.
What are your predictions?
they basically said they are going to make metabolism occur earlier, and have its power scale. like warlock. They also said they would be looking for places to reduce ki costs in general.
If they did do heightened metabolism earlier i would be thrilled. Where did you hear that?
It’s always helpful to see what others want out of the Monk class. I can see places were you took ideas that were previously posted. I saw some fresh ideas in there I liked and some I was toying with myself this morning. Let’s start with what I think is Bad so I can end with the Good.
BAD
Most people want more damage out of the monk, the d6 to d12 scaling will never achieve this goal. (More on this later)
I mean, that's why I added further damage scaling on features other than Martial Arts, like now Mystic Strikes (OG Stunning Strike) always deal more damage, regardless of the save or the further increase in Defensive Stance or some Martial Styles. The main idea was that your damage is improved by the normal progression of the class (even the capstone does this) and further more by using DP.
You added another feature to level 1 which has a bunch of features already. Moving it to 2nd Level fixes that problem.
I can see that and agree almost completely. The thing is, I don't like leaving alone a feature (Weapon Mastery) that is not functional if it doesn't have an immediate remedy (the Weapon Training Style). I didn't want to change Weapon Mastery directly, that's why the fix is in a style, but I have no problem with moving it to 2nd level.
I don’t like Redirect Strike, but I think it is just a me thing. I think I associate it with uncanny dodge, but it’s different enough to be its own thing. It’s not bad, it’s me.
Thinking back on it, Defensive Stance is too wordy, I should rewrite it to reduce the damage of any attack that deals BPS and then make the distinction of 60' for range attacks and 5' for melee attacks.
Discipline Attack could just be called Focused Aim straight out of Tasha’s. With 3 features at 3rd level this is looking feature heavy.
I wasn't going to add Ki-Fueled attack until I remembered that some subclasses screw their bonus action attack if they didn't attack, so I included it on the same spot as Tasha's.
Enhanced Metabolism is looking too strong on your Monk (more on this later)
Is it really? It's almost the same as the UA version, the only thing added is the Hit Die healing that can be used with the Refresh bonus action I added at level 2. So at level 7, the most this is doing is recovering 4 DP and a d8 of healing, and this is limited by your Wisdom mod. Huh, I didn't think of it, but I kinda overstepped into Wholeness of Body territory, guess that one's getting a rework as well.
Pulverizing Strikes is overpowered compared to the other choices and if a person doesn’t choose this and Quick Martial Arts they are playing your Monk wrong. 5 attacks with 2d8 is far better than 6 attacks with 1d8 and eventually we are talking about 2d12.
I'm confused, do you think I have to bring the other lvl 10 styles up? or bring Pulverizing Strikes a bit down? I guess I could also add some bonus to the rest (like a bonus to attack rolls or something).
The fact that some of those options have prerequisites is bad. Remember this was a first level choice effecting a 10th level choice.
Ok, I agree with this now that I reread Pulverizing Strikes being more powerful than the rest, prerrequisites are pointless.
Having a Feature at 11th breaks typical Monk design. Even Tasha’s doesn’t do that. Monks only get a subclass feature at 11th.
I wasn't too concerned about breaking the mold (or typical desing in this case), after all Martial Style is already doing that. But I wanted to push Diamond Soul earlier, even if only for a few levels.
You 15th level Perfect Discipline should read you no longer need to track Discipline points unless you avoided the Wisdom modifier completely. Also with Enhanced Metabolism giving you a one minute short rest. If you have too many points there is no point in tracking points.
I guess I could just erase Perfect Discipline completely since by this point the monk has more than enough DP and the bonus action added at level 2 + Enhanced Metabolism already fulfill the DP recovery part
Your Capstone is just a clone of the Barbarian capstone and that’s boring.
Yeah, but what else was there to add? I even included Baldur's Gate Tavern Brawler into the capstone (except that this one works for Dex and Wis as well). Maybe making the basic disciplines and Mystic Strikes for free?
Medium
Anything I didn’t directly mention is okay
Good
Martial Styles are cool, but aI would move them to 2nd level.
Using movement as a resource is a great idea. I think you used it for a type of disengage and an attack power up. A lot could be done with this considering the monks movement is often wasted in dungeons.
I liked using Wisdom for Charisma checks, but 14th is far too late
The problem is where to fit Calm Connection then, Pushing it to levels 1-4 would overload the player, I guess level 5 would be okay? It will see far more use from that point onwards.
I have another mock up I was working on were I stole some of your ideas and incorporated them into other features. I ended up not posting it because at this point it’s just for fun. None of these ideas will make it into the official books, or the next Monk UA, and sure I can offer my Monk to my table, but if they ever get to play with someone else they wouldn’t be able to play it there. Also I would never be able to play my monk because I wouldn’t have it in me to ask a DM to let me play a class I built, no matter how balanced I thought it was. I think the best we can hope for is WotC gives Monk a way to recharge DP at 2nd level, and Open Hand to get a proper rework. If they are good with Shadow and Elements they aren’t changing the base Monk that much.
Also I still really like movement speed as a resource. It’s only in one place on my reworked mock up, but I want to put it somewhere else too. I just can’t find the the place. It will come to me.
-a return to monk weapons, but the martial arts die goes back to start at 1d4 and scales to 1d10. (This means the nick attack now scales better.)
-tashas dedicated weapon, Maybe even ki fueled attack
-Deflect missiles goes back to an attack roll and does not cost a ki point!
-A Brand new 20th level capstone.
Thats it. Nothing else.
What we won't see is:
-an increase in ki.
-moving heightened metabolism to level 2.
-any changes to unarmored AC, hit dice or anything else like a reaction parry that would help the monks defense in melee
-there will be no weapon masteries added to unarmed strikes (except for perhaps in a new version of open hand technique).
-No dexterity as save dc for grapple and shoves
-stunning strike will not go back to the previous version
-there will be no returning to poison immunity
-any unclogging of the bonus action
Open Hand Monk
Open hand technique will get some weapon mastery options added to unarmed strikes. BUT…. it will only work with flurry of blows so you will still have to pay a ki for it when fighters will still weapon masteries for free.
Wholeness of body will have either the ki cost or the restriction on number of uses removed but otherwise the healing amount will be the same as previous UA.
Fleet step. This will be rewritten as a new feature.
Quivering palm. Status quo.
I realky hope they bring in something new to the main monk class as clearly the monk feedback was not very good. But since i believe that wotc truly does not get the monk, that is about the best i think we can expect.
What are your predictions?
they basically said they are going to make metabolism occur earlier, and have its power scale. like warlock. They also said they would be looking for places to reduce ki costs in general.
If they did do heightened metabolism earlier i would be thrilled. Where did you hear that?
uhh, the discussion of the new warlock getting scaling resource return, and the plan to do something similar with monk for Ki. They haven't said how they plan on scaling it. it could be resource early, hit dice later, or 1 early and another later. Who knows, but they basically said expect a ki mechanic earlier that will scale.
I think/hope we'll see the Warrior of Weapons (as the new name for the Kensei).
I hope we'll see some way of addressing the Weapon Masteries for Unarmed Strikes (either via the Weapon Mastery mechanic, or an adaptation of the Cunning Strikes mechanic (which has some overlaps with Weapon Masteries) ; I hope for the latter, but expect it will be the former ... I would much rather see Cunning Strikes like mechanics replace Weapon Mastery entirely).
There's too much up in the air for me to say anything more than that.
I hate that I believe you are correct. I’m finishing up another mock up monk with new ideas from post on this thread and I know it’s futile. It’s just something to do while passing the time. I think a major problem WotC has is that we the players don’t have a consensus of what we want the Monk to be. Some of us want skirmishers, some of us want anime characters, some of us want Bruce Lee, some of us want an improved version of 3e monk, and some of us want something completely different than all of this.
If they would improve other aspects of the Monk I would be okay with stunning strike becoming a once per short rest ability. That would be a drastic change from 5e so I don’t see that happening. I think you are correct in your predictions.
You are correct. There are so many variations on what people think a monk is, it does make it difficult to design for. Thats why i think customization options in the basic monk class would be great. But that would require a complete re design and they will never fo that.
The thing is, if monk didn't have almost 10 years of being subpar, especially in the upper tiers, or Ki point issues, or could access feats instead of needing their ASI's mostly for stats, I don't think there would be as many complaints, and variations on what a monk should be, to begin with. Then the various "I want monks to be more like X, Y, or Z" could fit into subclasses. Look at Sun Soul or Open Hand or Shadow. I think these subclasses aimed to fit these versions of what players want. And if the base class was great, then 1DD UA's could have been just about boosts and quality of life improvements like we've seen with so many of the other classes and subclasses.
Barbarians have some similar issues where they start to fall off at Tiers 3 & 4, but because they do have a solid foundation you don't get the same reactions to what a barbarian should be.
I hate that I believe you are correct. I’m finishing up another mock up monk with new ideas from post on this thread and I know it’s futile. It’s just something to do while passing the time. I think a major problem WotC has is that we the players don’t have a consensus of what we want the Monk to be. Some of us want skirmishers, some of us want anime characters, some of us want Bruce Lee, some of us want an improved version of 3e monk, and some of us want something completely different than all of this.
If they would improve other aspects of the Monk I would be okay with stunning strike becoming a once per short rest ability. That would be a drastic change from 5e so I don’t see that happening. I think you are correct in your predictions.
You are correct. There are so many variations on what people think a monk is, it does make it difficult to design for. Thats why i think customization options in the basic monk class would be great. But that would require a complete re design and they will never fo that.
The thing is, if monk didn't have almost 10 years of being subpar, especially in the upper tiers, or Ki point issues, or could access feats instead of needing their ASI's mostly for stats, I don't think there would be as many complaints, and variations on what a monk should be, to begin with. Then the various "I want monks to be more like X, Y, or Z" could fit into subclasses. Look at Sun Soul or Open Hand or Shadow. I think these subclasses aimed to fit these versions of what players want. And if the base class was great, then 1DD UA's could have been just about boosts and quality of life improvements like we've seen with so many of the other classes and subclasses.
Barbarians have some similar issues where they start to fall off at Tiers 3 & 4, but because they do have a solid foundation you don't get the same reactions to what a barbarian should be.
I believe the optimal way to fix it is to give it modular features that are up to the player to choose between 3 different ways to go about it, like pacts/divine orders or fighting styles. This will let players play the monk the way they want and also emphasize the versatility of the monk.
Modular features are the ultimate way to build characters so they don't feel repetitive and make them flexible, also letting you build into them on future updates. An example would be at a certain lvl in another book. Instead of a subclass, WOTC can offer options in the base class features, adding customization to the base class and adding extra value to the current subclasses, which makes everything feel new; we saw on Tasha how many classes changed, and if you did not like the one change use the other.
This also fixes the problem when players believe one version is better than the other, leaving the choice for when creating the character instead of when creating the Book.
With that idea, I guess it would be a Class-specific ASI/ feature.
I hate that I believe you are correct. I’m finishing up another mock up monk with new ideas from post on this thread and I know it’s futile. It’s just something to do while passing the time. I think a major problem WotC has is that we the players don’t have a consensus of what we want the Monk to be. Some of us want skirmishers, some of us want anime characters, some of us want Bruce Lee, some of us want an improved version of 3e monk, and some of us want something completely different than all of this.
Respectfully, I couldn't care less that the players don't have a unified idea of what the class should be. I'm not interested in playing a Bard or a Wizard but I'm 100% on board with how WOTC portrays those classes. They're iconic to the point where like many others I missed that the Bard was unplayable in UA7 until after the review period had closed. It's not a good sign for 2024 but also it really shows that players trust WOTC to comprehend what the Bard is at a fundamental level and the mechanics don't need to be scrutinized with every revision.
With the Monk, it is maddeningly clear that WOTC doesn't have a core vision for the class beyond the most rudimentary mechanics. There's no fundamentally unique spark that separated them from the other martial classes. Which is absolutely insane when one considered the incredible width and depth of the options players have to choose from for appropriate martial arts and philosophical inspirations. Never mind anime I really can't even see a modern Western take on what the Monk should be in D&D. The Monk was apparently based on an obscure sci-fi novel? Well then where is Honor Harrington? Where is Jet Li or Jackie Chan? Where is One Punch Man or Mob? Where is JoJo or even Ranma Saotome? The complete absence of inspirations beyond Avatar and generic 70s martial arts cinema as subclasses really stands out.
I hate that I believe you are correct. I’m finishing up another mock up monk with new ideas from post on this thread and I know it’s futile. It’s just something to do while passing the time. I think a major problem WotC has is that we the players don’t have a consensus of what we want the Monk to be. Some of us want skirmishers, some of us want anime characters, some of us want Bruce Lee, some of us want an improved version of 3e monk, and some of us want something completely different than all of this.
Respectfully, I couldn't care less that the players don't have a unified idea of what the class should be. I'm not interested in playing a Bard or a Wizard but I'm 100% on board with how WOTC portrays those classes. They're iconic to the point where like many others I missed that the Bard was unplayable in UA7 until after the review period had closed. It's not a good sign for 2024 but also it really shows that players trust WOTC to comprehend what the Bard is at a fundamental level and the mechanics don't need to be scrutinized with every revision.
With the Monk, it is maddeningly clear that WOTC doesn't have a core vision for the class beyond the most rudimentary mechanics. There's no fundamentally unique spark that separated them from the other martial classes. Which is absolutely insane when one considered the incredible width and depth of the options players have to choose from for appropriate martial arts and philosophical inspirations. Never mind anime I really can't even see a modern Western take on what the Monk should be in D&D. The Monk was apparently based on an obscure sci-fi novel? Well then where is Honor Harrington? Where is Jet Li or Jackie Chan? Where is One Punch Man or Mob? Where is JoJo or even Ranma Saotome? The complete absence of inspirations beyond Avatar and generic 70s martial arts cinema as subclasses really stands out.
Do you mean the UA monk, because in 5e JoJo is Astral Self, Dragon Ball is Sun Soul, Jackie Chan is Drunken or Open Hand, Jet Li is Open or Kensei, Mob is not a monk, neither is OPM. I don’t think inspiration is the problem. The problem is mechanics that don’t meet the goal of the fantasy.
It’s always helpful to see what others want out of the Monk class. I can see places were you took ideas that were previously posted. I saw some fresh ideas in there I liked and some I was toying with myself this morning.
Let’s start with what I think is Bad so I can end with the Good.
BAD
Most people want more damage out of the monk, the d6 to d12 scaling will never achieve this goal. (More on this later)
You added another feature to level 1 which has a bunch of features already. Moving it to 2nd Level fixes that problem.
I don’t like Redirect Strike, but I think it is just a me thing. I think I associate it with uncanny dodge, but it’s different enough to be its own thing. It’s not bad, it’s me.
Discipline Attack could just be called Focused Aim straight out of Tasha’s. With 3 features at 3rd level this is looking feature heavy.
Enhanced Metabolism is looking too strong on your Monk (more on this later)
Pulverizing Strikes is overpowered compared to the other choices and if a person doesn’t choose this and Quick Martial Arts they are playing your Monk wrong. 5 attacks with 2d8 is far better than 6 attacks with 1d8 and eventually we are talking about 2d12.
The fact that some of those options have prerequisites is bad. Remember this was a first level choice effecting a 10th level choice.
Having a Feature at 11th breaks typical Monk design. Even Tasha’s doesn’t do that. Monks only get a subclass feature at 11th.
You 15th level Perfect Discipline should read you no longer need to track Discipline points unless you avoided the Wisdom modifier completely. Also with Enhanced Metabolism giving you a one minute short rest. If you have too many points there is no point in tracking points.
Your Capstone is just a clone of the Barbarian capstone and that’s boring.
Medium
Anything I didn’t directly mention is okay
Good
Martial Styles are cool, but aI would move them to 2nd level.
Using movement as a resource is a great idea. I think you used it for a type of disengage and an attack power up. A lot could be done with this considering the monks movement is often wasted in dungeons.
I liked using Wisdom for Charisma checks, but 14th is far too late
I was referring to most of the currently published 5e monk features at 6th level. Not UA. Visage of astral self, wings unfurled, one with the blade, searing arc strike etc... physicians touch is decent, but for the most part it seems like in the past they have deliberatly kept level 6 monk subclass features on the weak side. Or it could just be that the monk designers are just bad all around....
Here are my Monk predictions for next UA:
What i think we will see:
-a return to monk weapons, but the martial arts die goes back to start at 1d4 and scales to 1d10. (This means the nick attack now scales better.)
-tashas dedicated weapon, Maybe even ki fueled attack
-Deflect missiles goes back to an attack roll and does not cost a ki point!
-A Brand new 20th level capstone.
Thats it. Nothing else.
What we won't see is:
-an increase in ki.
-moving heightened metabolism to level 2.
-any changes to unarmored AC, hit dice or anything else like a reaction parry that would help the monks defense in melee
-there will be no weapon masteries added to unarmed strikes (except for perhaps in a new version of open hand technique).
-No dexterity as save dc for grapple and shoves
-stunning strike will not go back to the previous version
-there will be no returning to poison immunity
-any unclogging of the bonus action
Open Hand Monk
Open hand technique will get some weapon mastery options added to unarmed strikes. BUT…. it will only work with flurry of blows so you will still have to pay a ki for it when fighters will still weapon masteries for free.
Wholeness of body will have either the ki cost or the restriction on number of uses removed but otherwise the healing amount will be the same as previous UA.
Fleet step. This will be rewritten as a new feature.
Quivering palm. Status quo.
I realky hope they bring in something new to the main monk class as clearly the monk feedback was not very good. But since i believe that wotc truly does not get the monk, that is about the best i think we can expect.
What are your predictions?
I hate that I believe you are correct. I’m finishing up another mock up monk with new ideas from post on this thread and I know it’s futile. It’s just something to do while passing the time. I think a major problem WotC has is that we the players don’t have a consensus of what we want the Monk to be. Some of us want skirmishers, some of us want anime characters, some of us want Bruce Lee, some of us want an improved version of 3e monk, and some of us want something completely different than all of this.
If they would improve other aspects of the Monk I would be okay with stunning strike becoming a once per short rest ability. That would be a drastic change from 5e so I don’t see that happening. I think you are correct in your predictions.
if that is all they give ill be pissed. they need a proper buff
they basically said they are going to make metabolism occur earlier, and have its power scale. like warlock. They also said they would be looking for places to reduce ki costs in general.
You are correct. There are so many variations on what people think a monk is, it does make it difficult to design for. Thats why i think customization options in the basic monk class would be great. But that would require a complete re design and they will never fo that.
If they did do heightened metabolism earlier i would be thrilled. Where did you hear that?
I don’t think they meant heighten metabolism which is a short rest, but something similar to magical cunning which just gives you your resource back.
I mean, that's why I added further damage scaling on features other than Martial Arts, like now Mystic Strikes (OG Stunning Strike) always deal more damage, regardless of the save or the further increase in Defensive Stance or some Martial Styles. The main idea was that your damage is improved by the normal progression of the class (even the capstone does this) and further more by using DP.
I can see that and agree almost completely. The thing is, I don't like leaving alone a feature (Weapon Mastery) that is not functional if it doesn't have an immediate remedy (the Weapon Training Style). I didn't want to change Weapon Mastery directly, that's why the fix is in a style, but I have no problem with moving it to 2nd level.
Thinking back on it, Defensive Stance is too wordy, I should rewrite it to reduce the damage of any attack that deals BPS and then make the distinction of 60' for range attacks and 5' for melee attacks.
I wasn't going to add Ki-Fueled attack until I remembered that some subclasses screw their bonus action attack if they didn't attack, so I included it on the same spot as Tasha's.
Is it really? It's almost the same as the UA version, the only thing added is the Hit Die healing that can be used with the Refresh bonus action I added at level 2. So at level 7, the most this is doing is recovering 4 DP and a d8 of healing, and this is limited by your Wisdom mod. Huh, I didn't think of it, but I kinda overstepped into Wholeness of Body territory, guess that one's getting a rework as well.
I'm confused, do you think I have to bring the other lvl 10 styles up? or bring Pulverizing Strikes a bit down? I guess I could also add some bonus to the rest (like a bonus to attack rolls or something).
Ok, I agree with this now that I reread Pulverizing Strikes being more powerful than the rest, prerrequisites are pointless.
I wasn't too concerned about breaking the mold (or typical desing in this case), after all Martial Style is already doing that. But I wanted to push Diamond Soul earlier, even if only for a few levels.
I guess I could just erase Perfect Discipline completely since by this point the monk has more than enough DP and the bonus action added at level 2 + Enhanced Metabolism already fulfill the DP recovery part
Yeah, but what else was there to add? I even included Baldur's Gate Tavern Brawler into the capstone (except that this one works for Dex and Wis as well). Maybe making the basic disciplines and Mystic Strikes for free?
The problem is where to fit Calm Connection then, Pushing it to levels 1-4 would overload the player, I guess level 5 would be okay? It will see far more use from that point onwards.
I have another mock up I was working on were I stole some of your ideas and incorporated them into other features. I ended up not posting it because at this point it’s just for fun. None of these ideas will make it into the official books, or the next Monk UA, and sure I can offer my Monk to my table, but if they ever get to play with someone else they wouldn’t be able to play it there. Also I would never be able to play my monk because I wouldn’t have it in me to ask a DM to let me play a class I built, no matter how balanced I thought it was. I think the best we can hope for is WotC gives Monk a way to recharge DP at 2nd level, and Open Hand to get a proper rework. If they are good with Shadow and Elements they aren’t changing the base Monk that much.
Also I still really like movement speed as a resource. It’s only in one place on my reworked mock up, but I want to put it somewhere else too. I just can’t find the the place. It will come to me.
uhh, the discussion of the new warlock getting scaling resource return, and the plan to do something similar with monk for Ki. They haven't said how they plan on scaling it. it could be resource early, hit dice later, or 1 early and another later. Who knows, but they basically said expect a ki mechanic earlier that will scale.
that said, Ki is not monk's biggest issue imo.
I think/hope we'll see the Warrior of Weapons (as the new name for the Kensei).
I hope we'll see some way of addressing the Weapon Masteries for Unarmed Strikes (either via the Weapon Mastery mechanic, or an adaptation of the Cunning Strikes mechanic (which has some overlaps with Weapon Masteries) ; I hope for the latter, but expect it will be the former ... I would much rather see Cunning Strikes like mechanics replace Weapon Mastery entirely).
There's too much up in the air for me to say anything more than that.
The thing is, if monk didn't have almost 10 years of being subpar, especially in the upper tiers, or Ki point issues, or could access feats instead of needing their ASI's mostly for stats, I don't think there would be as many complaints, and variations on what a monk should be, to begin with. Then the various "I want monks to be more like X, Y, or Z" could fit into subclasses. Look at Sun Soul or Open Hand or Shadow. I think these subclasses aimed to fit these versions of what players want. And if the base class was great, then 1DD UA's could have been just about boosts and quality of life improvements like we've seen with so many of the other classes and subclasses.
Barbarians have some similar issues where they start to fall off at Tiers 3 & 4, but because they do have a solid foundation you don't get the same reactions to what a barbarian should be.
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I believe the optimal way to fix it is to give it modular features that are up to the player to choose between 3 different ways to go about it, like pacts/divine orders or fighting styles. This will let players play the monk the way they want and also emphasize the versatility of the monk.
Modular features are the ultimate way to build characters so they don't feel repetitive and make them flexible, also letting you build into them on future updates. An example would be at a certain lvl in another book. Instead of a subclass, WOTC can offer options in the base class features, adding customization to the base class and adding extra value to the current subclasses, which makes everything feel new; we saw on Tasha how many classes changed, and if you did not like the one change use the other.
This also fixes the problem when players believe one version is better than the other, leaving the choice for when creating the character instead of when creating the Book.
With that idea, I guess it would be a Class-specific ASI/ feature.
Ah yes, because a martial artist couldn't possibly be big and beefy
Respectfully, I couldn't care less that the players don't have a unified idea of what the class should be. I'm not interested in playing a Bard or a Wizard but I'm 100% on board with how WOTC portrays those classes. They're iconic to the point where like many others I missed that the Bard was unplayable in UA7 until after the review period had closed. It's not a good sign for 2024 but also it really shows that players trust WOTC to comprehend what the Bard is at a fundamental level and the mechanics don't need to be scrutinized with every revision.
With the Monk, it is maddeningly clear that WOTC doesn't have a core vision for the class beyond the most rudimentary mechanics. There's no fundamentally unique spark that separated them from the other martial classes. Which is absolutely insane when one considered the incredible width and depth of the options players have to choose from for appropriate martial arts and philosophical inspirations. Never mind anime I really can't even see a modern Western take on what the Monk should be in D&D. The Monk was apparently based on an obscure sci-fi novel? Well then where is Honor Harrington? Where is Jet Li or Jackie Chan? Where is One Punch Man or Mob? Where is JoJo or even Ranma Saotome? The complete absence of inspirations beyond Avatar and generic 70s martial arts cinema as subclasses really stands out.
While all monks are martial artists, not all martial artists are monks.
Do you mean the UA monk, because in 5e JoJo is Astral Self, Dragon Ball is Sun Soul, Jackie Chan is Drunken or Open Hand, Jet Li is Open or Kensei, Mob is not a monk, neither is OPM. I don’t think inspiration is the problem. The problem is mechanics that don’t meet the goal of the fantasy.
Hmmm maybe the Monk could be a subclass of an MMA class then.
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