To make Bard a half-caster they'd need a significant boost to their other combat options, or it will end up like the Artificer - Alchemist.
Alchemist's problem is that their main feature is not only weak, but also unreliable to the point of being unusable. Wild Magic might be random, but you can at least be certain that you cast the spell you cast and what comes after is just an extra; Experimental Elixir is random to begin with, you don't even know if you'll have a use for what you get. And the artificer spell list is... weird.
To make Bard a half-caster they'd need a significant boost to their other combat options, or it will end up like the Artificer - Alchemist.
Half-caster doesn't need to mean combat as the other half; if the purpose of a Bard is support then the other "half" can be support focused, via much more inspiration etc. College of Swords/Valor can provide further combat ability for going down that route, i.e- spend the extra inspiration resources to be better at fighting, basically how Swords is now but more of it.
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You can inspire others through stirring words or music. To do so, you use a bonus action on your turn to choose one creature other than yourself within 60 feet of you who can hear you. That creature gains one Bardic Inspiration die, a d6. You can use this feature at will but using this feature reveals your location as if you had cast a spell with verbal components.
Once within the next minute, the creature can roll the die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes. The creature can wait until after it rolls the d20 before deciding to use the Bardic Inspiration die. Once the Bardic Inspiration die is rolled, it is lost. A creature can have only one Bardic Inspiration die at a time.
Your Bardic Inspiration die changes when you reach certain levels in this class. The die becomes a d8 at 5th level, a d10 at 10th level, and a d12 at 15th level.
Level 1: Spellcasting
You have learned to untangle and reshape the fabric of reality in harmony with your wishes and music. Your spells are part of your vast repertoire, magic that you can tune to different situations.
Cantrips
You know four cantrips of your choice from the Divine, Primal or Arcane spell lists. You can change one of these cantrips for another each time you complete a Long Rest.
Spell Slots - Half-caster progression
Spells Prepared - Full-caster progression
You know four 1st-level spells of your choice from the Divine, Primal or Arcane spell list. Whenever you complete a Long Rest you can change a number of spell you have prepared equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) for another spell from these lists.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Ritual Casting
You can cast any spell you have prepared as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag.
Spellcasting Focus
You can use a musical instrument (see the Tools section) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
Level 1: Charming Innocence
While you are not wearing armour, your AC = 10 + your Dexterity Modifier + your Charisma Modifier.
Level 2 : Jack of All Trades
You can add half your Proficiency Bonus (round down) to any ability check you make that uses a skill proficiency you lack and that doesn’t otherwise use your Proficiency Bonus.
Level 3 : Expertise
You gain Expertise in two of your skill proficiencies of your choice.
Level 3: Subclass Feature
Level 4: ASI/Feat
Level 5: Self-Confidence
When you deal damage to a creature using a weapon, unarmed strike, or a cantrip, that creature takes additional psychic damage equal to one roll of your Bardic Inspiration die. You can only deal this damage to one creature per turn.
In addition, when you are hit by an attack or required to make a saving throw, you can use your reaction to add one roll of your Bardic Inspiration die to your AC or saving throw potentially causing the attack to miss, or turning a failed save into a success.
Level 6: Subclass Feature
Level 6: Magical Secrets
You learn two spells of 3rd level or lower from the Divine, Primal, or Arcane spell list. You always have these spells prepared, and can cast each of these spells once without expending a spell slot, you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest.
Level 7: Countercharm
You can use musical notes or words of power to disrupt mind-influencing effects. If you or a creature within 60 feet of you fails a saving throw against an effect that applies the Charmed or Frightened condition, you can use your Reaction to cause the save to be rerolled, and the new roll has Advantage.
Level 8: ASI/Feat
Level 9: Expertise
You gain Expertise in two of your skill proficiencies of your choice.
Level 9: Shared Spells
When you cast a spell that targets another creature, you can choose to also have that spell target yourself.
Level 10: Magical Secrets
You learn two spells of 5th level or lower from the Divine, Primal, or Arcane spell list. You always have these spells prepared, and can cast each of these spells once without expending a spell slot, you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest.
Level 11: Universal Talent
As an action, you can touch one item that you normally cannot attune to and/or are not proficient in using and instantly attune that item and/or gain proficiency in using it. This attunement and/or proficiency lasts until you finish a short or long rest. When you attune an item in this way it does not count against the maximum number of items you have attuned.
Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest
Level 12: Feat/ASI
Level 14: Subclass Feature
Level 14: Magical Secrets
You learn two spells of 7th level or lower from the Divine, Primal, or Arcane spell list. You always have these spells prepared, and can cast each of these spells once without expending a spell slot, you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest.
Level 15: Improved Shared Spells
When you cast a spell that targets a friendly creature other than yourself, you can choose to have that spell target a number of friendly creatures (including yourself) equal to your Charisma modifier. All the creatures you target in this way must be within range of the spell you cast.
Once you have used this feature you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.
Level 16: Feat/ASI
Level 17: Subclass Feature
Level 18: Magical Secrets
You learn two spells of 9th level or lower from the Divine, Primal, or Arcane spell list. You always have these spells prepared, and can cast each of these spells once without expending a spell slot, you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest.
Level 19: Feat/ASI
Level 20: Improved Jack of All Trades
You gain Expertise in all skills that you have proficiency with, and you gain proficiency with all skills with which you are not currently proficient.
IMO, the Bard exposes the weakness of cramming all spell lists into three lists. That works fine for sorcerers and Wizards, and mostly for clerics and paladins,, but for bards, just give them their own separate list. Artificer will need that eventually anyway.
IMO, the Bard exposes the weakness of cramming all spell lists into three lists. That works fine for sorcerers and Wizards, and mostly for clerics and paladins,, but for bards, just give them their own separate list. Artificer will need that eventually anyway.
Mostly agree. I get their future proofing argument but I think the lack of identity it causes is a worse trade off.
It's pretty comical how much they screwed themselves over when it comes to Bard with the simplified spell lists.
Short of making Bards a proper spell list, I think the best solution is to make Healing Word an Enchantment spell (like they did Power Word Heal) and give Bards Enchantment, Illusion, and Divination spells from any list. Then change Magical Secrets back to a limited number of spells that can ignore the school restriction and there ya go, keep their "Jack of All Trades" theme in tact and give them their flavorful spells as a baseline.
Am I the only one who's confused by the idea that the most iconic jack-of-all-trades class is actually an ace in magic? I always thought bards were supposed to be half-casters, half-experts, half-warriors, capable of leaning into either direction with subclass choice.
I'm not sure why you thought any of that, tbh. Bards are supposed to be bards. The rest is an interjection of opinion into game mechanics. A bard can mean different things to different people and that's why the design should be capable of encompassing as much of those tropes as possible. You can entirely create a 1e bard by taking fighter, rogue, and druid levels and the musician feat. Or you can use the UA bard to start with primal spells, add the valor college, and use skills inherent to the class. A 2e bard is easier to replicate now.
Regarding the "jack of all trades class", however, isn't half anything. A jack of all trades than cannot do anything well has no appeal at all. That style needs to be capable of doing many things well enough to be worth taking over a specialist class. That leads into the "ace in magic" comment that is incredibly inaccurate.
Knowing a variety of spells is part of the bard identity. By removing the daily preparation in favor of preparation by level advancement (ie spells known) the entire spell list becomes limited at the same time as it any spell becomes potentially available. It's a schrodinger's bard argument because the potential spells become essentially locked in.
Compare the bard to a cleric, for example. The bard can begin with divine spells and that's fine. The cleric will still have more cantrips, add more spells via domain, can add potent cantrip, can very much more easily swap out spells to access spell the bard would need to level up to change to, adds more spell power with the divine intervention abilities, and the subclasses add magical power. There is no way for a bard regardless of subclass to match the life cleric in that cleric's role because of those differences. The bard casts the spells at their basic level and the cleric casts those spells as enhanced by the cleric abilities.
The bard having access to more spells is a jack of all trades trait.
Magical secrets doesn't take place until 10th level. At that point the bard will have access to adding 8 spells over 11 levels from 3 lists through advancement when other classes can take from all of them daily. The bard can also replace 9 spells already taken with spells from 2 other lists, but to what end? If they wanted a lot of spells from those lists they would have started with them.
The reality is the bard starts with the list they want, cast spells equal to (at best) or less than (based on player build focus) other classes using that same list, and then they add a few spells from other lists like 5e bards can do now with magical secrets, but without the mixed starting list bards currently have. Almost nothing has changed in that regard, but it's clear bards who want to be healers won't heal like clerics who want to be healers, and bards who want to be nukers won't nuke like wizards who want to be nukers, and bards still won't have metamagic or invocations.
Regarding the "jack of all trades class", however, isn't half anything. A jack of all trades than cannot do anything well has no appeal at all. That style needs to be capable of doing many things well enough to be worth taking over a specialist class. That leads into the "ace in magic" comment that is incredibly inaccurate.
Then what's the point of specialist classes if there's an alternative that is just as good in what they specialuze in, but also has other roles covered? Sorcerers got metamagic, but bard is just a way more versatile sorcerer than sorcerer.
Compare the bard to a cleric, for example. The bard can begin with divine spells and that's fine. The cleric will still have more cantrips, add more spells via domain, can add potent cantrip, can very much more easily swap out spells to access spell the bard would need to level up to change to, adds more spell power with the divine intervention abilities, and the subclasses add magical power. There is no way for a bard regardless of subclass to match the life cleric in that cleric's role because of those differences. The bard casts the spells at their basic level and the cleric casts those spells as enhanced by the cleric abilities.
I'm assuming you haven't seen the College of Glamour subclass. Because it has abilities that enhance spells.
The bard having access to more spells is a jack of all trades trait.
Magical secrets doesn't take place until 10th level. At that point the bard will have access to adding 8 spells over 11 levels from 3 lists through advancement when other classes can take from all of them daily. The bard can also replace 9 spells already taken with spells from 2 other lists, but to what end? If they wanted a lot of spells from those lists they would have started with them.
The reality is the bard starts with the list they want, cast spells equal to (at best) or less than (based on player build focus) other classes using that same list, and then they add a few spells from other lists like 5e bards can do now with magical secrets, but without the mixed starting list bards currently have. Almost nothing has changed in that regard, but it's clear bards who want to be healers won't heal like clerics who want to be healers, and bards who want to be nukers won't nuke like wizards who want to be nukers, and bards still won't have metamagic or invocations.
I don't mind them having access to all spell lists, I think it's a good idea in line with the idea of bards' versatility. But the difference between bards and other fullcasters isn't that significant. In 5e, their spell list limited them to a more of support/control role, but now... Like I said, sorcerer has metamagic, but bard has higher HP and AC, plenty of skills with expertise, etc. I wouldn't call that OP, but what's the point of sorcerer other than metamagic now? That is my main concern, bard kind of invades on sorcerer territory a bit too much..
Regarding the "jack of all trades class", however, isn't half anything. A jack of all trades than cannot do anything well has no appeal at all. That style needs to be capable of doing many things well enough to be worth taking over a specialist class. That leads into the "ace in magic" comment that is incredibly inaccurate.
Then what's the point of specialist classes if there's an alternative that is just as good in what they specialuze in, but also has other roles covered? Sorcerers got metamagic, but bard is just a way more versatile sorcerer than sorcerer.
Compare the bard to a cleric, for example. The bard can begin with divine spells and that's fine. The cleric will still have more cantrips, add more spells via domain, can add potent cantrip, can very much more easily swap out spells to access spell the bard would need to level up to change to, adds more spell power with the divine intervention abilities, and the subclasses add magical power. There is no way for a bard regardless of subclass to match the life cleric in that cleric's role because of those differences. The bard casts the spells at their basic level and the cleric casts those spells as enhanced by the cleric abilities.
I'm assuming you haven't seen the College of Glamour subclass. Because it has abilities that enhance spells.
The bard having access to more spells is a jack of all trades trait.
Magical secrets doesn't take place until 10th level. At that point the bard will have access to adding 8 spells over 11 levels from 3 lists through advancement when other classes can take from all of them daily. The bard can also replace 9 spells already taken with spells from 2 other lists, but to what end? If they wanted a lot of spells from those lists they would have started with them.
The reality is the bard starts with the list they want, cast spells equal to (at best) or less than (based on player build focus) other classes using that same list, and then they add a few spells from other lists like 5e bards can do now with magical secrets, but without the mixed starting list bards currently have. Almost nothing has changed in that regard, but it's clear bards who want to be healers won't heal like clerics who want to be healers, and bards who want to be nukers won't nuke like wizards who want to be nukers, and bards still won't have metamagic or invocations.
I don't mind them having access to all spell lists, I think it's a good idea in line with the idea of bards' versatility. But the difference between bards and other fullcasters isn't that significant. In 5e, their spell list limited them to a more of support/control role, but now... Like I said, sorcerer has metamagic, but bard has higher HP and AC, plenty of skills with expertise, etc. I wouldn't call that OP, but what's the point of sorcerer other than metamagic now? That is my main concern, bard kind of invades on sorcerer territory a bit too much..
In order....
Then what's the point of specialist classes if there's an alternative that is just as good in what they specialuze in, but also has other roles covered? Sorcerers got metamagic, but bard is just a way more versatile sorcerer than sorcerer.
That begs the question of whether there is an alternative that is just a good in what they specialize in. That's false. Again, try to make a healing bard that heals like a cleric or a nuker than nukes like a wizard or sorcerer. It's not possible. Bards aren't even capable of qualifying for priest or mage tagged feats. GG.
I'm assuming you haven't seen the College of Glamour subclass. Because it has abilities that enhance spells.
That argument looks like cherry-picking the most magical subclass as an over-all representation after bringing up the sorcerer as an example of a class without that broad range as an over-all representation of spellcasters. I think sorcerers should have the same choice of arcane, divine, or primal spells at first level as representative of their bloodline or origin story but that's getting off topic. ;-)
To me it looks like a classic bard enchanter trope and I'm not seeing how the bard suddenly is capable of healing better than a cleric or nuking better than a wizard etc in having a bonus charm or command. The reliance on the charm or illusion spells leads the bard into a focus instead of broader diversity. What class and subclass is the glamor bard outperforming with their spells?
I don't mind them having access to all spell lists, I think it's a good idea in line with the idea of bards' versatility. But the difference between bards and other fullcasters isn't that significant. In 5e, their spell list limited them to a more of support/control role, but now... Like I said, sorcerer has metamagic, but bard has higher HP and AC, plenty of skills with expertise, etc. I wouldn't call that OP, but what's the point of sorcerer other than metamagic now? That is my main concern, bard kind of invades on sorcerer territory a bit too much..
Is the concern "ace in magic" or is it a comparison to sorcerers? Because those are not the same thing.
Bard vs Wizard: The wizard has the ability to swap out to a larger range of spells daily instead of by level, has an extra cantrip, arcane recovery to cast more spells per day, casts rituals from the spell book, modifies spells that remain exclusive, adds spell mastery, adds signature spells within the base class before adding a subclass, and can take feats with the mage tag. A bard needing to learn rituals spells to use them creates a situation where the wizard has access to more spells and recovery means casting them more often. Evoker is the only subclass presented so far and scupt spells, potent cantrip, empowered evocation, and overchannel are obviously well beyond what a bard can accomplish by gaining access to divine and primal spell lists at higher levels.
Bard vs Cleric: The cleric has the ability to swap out to a larger range of spells daily instead of by level, has an extra cantrip, can add another extra cantrip through thaumaturge, can add potent spellcasting, adds 10 prepared spells through domain before bards even gain magical secrets, adds a spell from divine intervention, adds a better version of wish through greater divine intervention, and can take feats with the priest tag. Domain spells can add a lot to versatility and gives more room for preparing rituals. Clerics are the iconic healer and there is no way for a bard to heal as well because of the divine spark aspect of channel divinity. There is no way for the bard to try and maintain the same level of healing on the non-healing focused cleric domains because of divine spark and larger number of spells available in gameplay. A bard who matches 8/10 of those healing spells (or other domain spells) has taken a serious hit on spells known leaving little to cover the rest of the basic spell list. A life cleric can create spell slots for abjuration spells by using channel divinity uses, which also recover on a short rest to enable extra spell slots per day on top of abilities like disciple of life, blessed healer, and supreme healing. Bards are closer to this class as support through bardic inspiration but even the base AC would still give clerics the advantage looking at the rest of the class.
Bard vs Druid: The druid has the ability to swap out to a larger range of spells daily instead of by level, can add an extra cantrip through magician that also adds a massive range boost later, can add an extra spell slot with wild resurgence, adds a lot of spells prepared with circle spells, can add potent cantrip, and can take feats with the priest tag. I went over the benefits of extra spell preparation already, so I'll skip to a comparison the circle of land. Land druids can change their circle spells on a long rest, recover spell slots with natural recovery, and gain a free use of a circle spell. Between natural recovery, the bonus spell, nature's resurgence, and nature magician the druid can cast a significantly larger number of spells per day than the bard can.
All three of those classes can swap spells withing a broad range far faster than a bard can level up and each has access to more spells prepared than the bard knows. The bard starts to add spells from other lists very slowing at higher levels in comparison. The best thing that magical secrets can do is slowly add spells that are already available to the players'. There's nothing inherently more powerful about also giving them to bards (there can be a benefit from spells that interact with skill proficiencies, however). Choosing a spell list creates the bard style. Magical secrets plays into the jack of all trades by allowing that slow incorporation with other spell lists.
Bard vs Warlock: Even with the change from pact magic to the UA spell progression mystic arcanum enables spell progression into the higher level spells while patron spells give warlocks more options to use with their spell slots than bards, and invocations continue to give at-will spells and/or create eldritch blast benefits beyond what bards replicate with other cantrip attacks. The warlock can also take mage tagged feats.
Bard vs Paladin: Paladins are worth a mention here for the same reason domain, circle, or patron spells matter. Paladins add smite spells and oath spells to spells prepared as well as some additional class spells. Prepping 15 spells and knowing 6 class spells (smites) and adding 10 oath spells is a lot more options with which to use the 7 less spell slots. Paladins can change a prepared spell on a long rest. Paladins can take priest tagged feats. Here is a table of spells known to stress how much a paladin can do in comparison:
Level
Bard
Warlock
Paladin
1
4
4
2
2
5
6
5
3
6
9
8
4
7
10
10
5
9
14
13
6
10
14
13
7
11
16
14
8
12
16
14
9
14
20
19
10
15
20
19
11
16
22
20
12
16
22
20
13
17
26
24
14
17
26
24
15
18
27
25
16
18
27
25
17
19
31
30
18
20
31
30
19
21
32
31
20
22
32
31
The paladin has the smites and oath spells added. Additional magic actions from the class table are not included. The warlock has the tome as the standard spell caster style and includes patron spells. 1 SLA invocation and up to 4 mystic arcanum are assumed and additional invocations are available. Other magic actions from the class table are not included.
These classes are getting into a category that can be argued with benefits as spell casters over bards and magical secrets despite the difference in progression. In gameplay, paladins and warlocks tend to be sturdier and apply more damage with at-will attack options. They have more spells at any given time in game play to have a wider variety of options in game play. Magical secrets gives more options in the character design space but it doesn't give more options in the game play space. This allows both of those classes to be more combat effective most of the time, gives room for a lot of rituals that are mostly low level already, and use most of their other spells just as effectively as a bard can. The bard benefit in spell casting is the limited opportunity to shine with a few high level slots and spells.
There are bard subclasses that can add a few more spells but not many spells. And, again, magical secrets is a slow gain over a long time at high levels. It's an exercise in catching up dressed up to look good. That leads to the sorcerer...
Bard vs Sorcerer: If a bard starts with the arcane spell list they have a very similar spell list to the sorcerer, true. The sorcerer did not gain bonus spells known through the bloodline in the draconic subclass in the UA5 release so they have similar spells known using a similar mechanic for those spells known. There is a slight difference in the spell list created by the class, however. Bards have the option to learn the vicious mockery cantrip as one of their two cantrips. Sorcerers gain sorcerous burst as an additional cantrip unavailable to bards for five cantrips at 1st level to the bard's two. That means a lot at low levels. Sorcerers also learn chaos bolt, sorcerous vitality, arcane eruption, sorcery incarnate, and arcane apotheosis spells unavailable to bards for a total of 7 cantrips to the bard's 4 and 27 spells known compared to the bard's 22. The sorcerer also has font of magic, metamagic, and can learn feats with the mage tag.
A sorcerer is immediately better than a bard with the gap in cantrips and can take any arcane spell the bard can, have a few more spell options, use font of magic on spell slot creation only, and the extra spells known and spells cast would make for a better spell caster than the bard. Using metamagic mean the sorcerer can instead cast every spell the bard can and make it better, plus have a few more spells available. The bard benefits by skills and bardic inspiration. IME, metamagic is more impactful used less often.
A final reminder, bards don't get magical secrets until higher levels. The first 9 levels all they do with spells is cast basic spells of the same list as another class. Magical secrets following spells know progression give one at levels 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, and 20. One of these is going to be wish so a bard compared to a sorcerer isn't taking a secret outside of the base spell list and cannot cast wish as well as that sorcerer (who gained it for free). Many of those secrets are still like to come from the primary spell list because they fit in with the original them of the character.
The player can trade off spells from the original spell list but why would they invest heavily in that instead of taking a different spell list in the first place and how would doing so change anything? That's giving up a presumably useful spell for an different useful spell as more of a side grade than an upgrade given the limitation on high level spell slots too. It's not the huge advantage some people think it is.
I hope that helps. Spellcasting is a very strong ability but giving high level bards a strong selection that they acquire slowing doesn't give them the potency within those spells that other classes can give; it doesn't grant spell slot replenishment that casters like wizards, druids, and sorcerer enjoy; and it doesn't give the in play spell variety most spell casters enjoy over bards.
I rather like it, but I have a question. It doesn't explicitly say what list they use as they level up and gain known spells/known cantrips. I assume from what you said for first level that it's any of the 3 lists, but I think it should be explicit.
And, just to be sure I understand the purpose of Magical Secrets in this context: It's not so much that you get to learn spells outside your usual scope (like a 5e Bard), but that you gain extra spells known, that come with 1 free casting each. Right?
(re-reading) oh...wait... it's also giving them access to high level spells that they otherwise can't get via the half-caster progression. Sort of like the Warlock's mystic arcanum. I like that idea.
I like a lot of these ideas, only thing I'd maybe tweak is if they have access to all spell lists, they should maybe be restricted to a choice of schools of magic instead (excluding evocation?) which makes the magical secrets choices even more important if they ignore this restriction.
I'd start at three schools initially, with a recommendation of abjuration, enchantment and illusion (pretty close to what a Bard's list looks like now) and a fourth choice later on. Swapping for divination can make a more spiritual/mystical bard, necromancy could really benefit spirits and so-on.
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I'm not fond of per-school limitations. I thought it was the most annoying wrinkle to the first attempt at a OneD&D Bard.
The school restrictions would be instead of spell list restrictions, i.e- it's essentially a "build your own spell-list".
Abjuration, Enchantment and Illusion covers most of what 5e Bards currently get, with a bunch of new spells, and you'd still have Magical Secrets and a later fourth school choice to fill in any gaps or areas you'd like to specialise in.
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I like a lot of these ideas, only thing I'd maybe tweak is if they have access to all spell lists, they should maybe be restricted to a choice of schools of magic instead (excluding evocation?) which makes the magical secrets choices even more important if they ignore this restriction.
I'd start at three schools initially, with a recommendation of abjuration, enchantment and illusion (pretty close to what a Bard's list looks like now) and a fourth choice later on. Swapping for divination can make a more spiritual/mystical bard, necromancy could really benefit spirits and so-on.
Excluding evocation is not necessary for a half-caster Bard because the slow spell level progression means evocation spells will suck for them anyway. Getting Fireball at level 9 is not an impressive thing and they'd be way better off taking Hypnotic Pattern instead simply from a pure power stand point, the handful that aren't terrible for them - e.g. Magic Missile, or ones with debuffs attached - don't break the "feel" of a bard. Plus there are spells like Thunderwave, Shatter, Thunderstep, and Sending that are evocation but super-thematic for bards, not to mention that heavy-metal themed bards will totally want Wall of Fire and other pyrotechnics-flavourful spells. The half-caster bard is limited to buff and save-or-suck spells purely by the nature of the scalability of those spells compared to the flashy evocation ones which will always be massively sub-par compared to a full caster. So just let them have access to all the spells and build what they want.
I'm not sure I'm sold on the story of Primal or Divine Bards.
Divine Bards are:
preachers (preachers are absolutely NOT Clerics, they're best modeled as Eloquence Bards, and OneD&D having them go full Divine Spell list is actually a great way to double down on that)
non-militant monastic orders (monastic cloistered scribes/scholars, who maintained knowledge during the dark ages, and that sort of religious scholar as Lore Bards)
priests who get into the political and scheming part of church administration
Militant monastic orders are Clerics (especially, but not exclusively, War Domain Clerics) and pre-5e Paladins.
Clerics lack the social skill options for the Preacher and Political parts of Ordained Church life. Some Clerical domains can embrace the scholarly angles, so (IMO) that's a 50/50 split on Divine Bards vs Clerics.
I'm not sure I'm sold on the story of Primal or Divine Bards.
Divine Bards are:
preachers (preachers are absolutely NOT Clerics, they're best modeled as Eloquence Bards, and OneD&D having them go full Divine Spell list is actually a great way to double down on that)
non-militant monastic orders (monastic cloistered scribes/scholars, who maintained knowledge during the dark ages, and that sort of religious scholar as Lore Bards)
priests who get into the political and scheming part of church administration
Militant monastic orders are Clerics (especially, but not exclusively, War Domain Clerics) and pre-5e Paladins.
Clerics lack the social skill options for the Preacher and Political parts of Ordained Church life. Some Clerical domains can embrace the scholarly angles, so (IMO) that's a 50/50 split on Divine Bards vs Clerics.
To say nothing of Priests of a God/Goddess of Music, the person in charge of the choir at a standard church, a better option for a priesthood that focuses on deceit, and so on. Or take inspiration from the Kalevala - magic and music are intertwined in the Finnish Epic,
The Primal spell list is a throwback to 1rst edition, when Bards (after several levels as a fighter, then a thief) got access to the Druid spell list as standard (arcane bards came about in 2nd edition). But add in a Fey focused bard and Primal is an excellent list for them. Possibly even the priest class of a society where knowledge is passed on in song.
Primal domain should work well for Valour bards: access to Shillelagh enables a SAD melee build (benefiting from training with medium armour and shields).
Unless the character 2-3 Levels into Cleric I do not see them getting some CLASS feature to heal. At later levels they get access to Divine spells to heal. (Why. No idea)
A Divine spell draws on the power of gods and the Outer Planes. Clerics and Paladins harness this magic. - SO let us also give it to the BARD.
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Alchemist's problem is that their main feature is not only weak, but also unreliable to the point of being unusable. Wild Magic might be random, but you can at least be certain that you cast the spell you cast and what comes after is just an extra; Experimental Elixir is random to begin with, you don't even know if you'll have a use for what you get. And the artificer spell list is... weird.
Half-caster doesn't need to mean combat as the other half; if the purpose of a Bard is support then the other "half" can be support focused, via much more inspiration etc. College of Swords/Valor can provide further combat ability for going down that route, i.e- spend the extra inspiration resources to be better at fighting, basically how Swords is now but more of it.
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Here's my take on a half-caster Bard:
Level 1: Bardic Inspiration
You can inspire others through stirring words or music. To do so, you use a bonus action on your turn to choose one creature other than yourself within 60 feet of you who can hear you. That creature gains one Bardic Inspiration die, a d6. You can use this feature at will but using this feature reveals your location as if you had cast a spell with verbal components.
Once within the next minute, the creature can roll the die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes. The creature can wait until after it rolls the d20 before deciding to use the Bardic Inspiration die. Once the Bardic Inspiration die is rolled, it is lost. A creature can have only one Bardic Inspiration die at a time.
Your Bardic Inspiration die changes when you reach certain levels in this class. The die becomes a d8 at 5th level, a d10 at 10th level, and a d12 at 15th level.
Level 1: Spellcasting
You have learned to untangle and reshape the fabric of reality in harmony with your wishes and music. Your spells are part of your vast repertoire, magic that you can tune to different situations.
Cantrips
You know four cantrips of your choice from the Divine, Primal or Arcane spell lists. You can change one of these cantrips for another each time you complete a Long Rest.
Spell Slots - Half-caster progression
Spells Prepared - Full-caster progression
You know four 1st-level spells of your choice from the Divine, Primal or Arcane spell list. Whenever you complete a Long Rest you can change a number of spell you have prepared equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) for another spell from these lists.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier
Ritual Casting
You can cast any spell you have prepared as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag.
Spellcasting Focus
You can use a musical instrument (see the Tools section) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.
Level 1: Charming Innocence
While you are not wearing armour, your AC = 10 + your Dexterity Modifier + your Charisma Modifier.
Level 2 : Jack of All Trades
You can add half your Proficiency Bonus (round down) to any ability check you make that uses a skill proficiency you lack and that doesn’t otherwise use your Proficiency Bonus.
Level 3 : Expertise
You gain Expertise in two of your skill proficiencies of your choice.
Level 3: Subclass Feature
Level 4: ASI/Feat
Level 5: Self-Confidence
When you deal damage to a creature using a weapon, unarmed strike, or a cantrip, that creature takes additional psychic damage equal to one roll of your Bardic Inspiration die. You can only deal this damage to one creature per turn.
In addition, when you are hit by an attack or required to make a saving throw, you can use your reaction to add one roll of your Bardic Inspiration die to your AC or saving throw potentially causing the attack to miss, or turning a failed save into a success.
Level 6: Subclass Feature
Level 6: Magical Secrets
You learn two spells of 3rd level or lower from the Divine, Primal, or Arcane spell list. You always have these spells prepared, and can cast each of these spells once without expending a spell slot, you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest.
Level 7: Countercharm
You can use musical notes or words of power to disrupt mind-influencing effects. If you or a creature within 60 feet of you fails a saving throw against an effect that applies the Charmed or Frightened condition, you can use your Reaction to cause the save to be rerolled, and the new roll has Advantage.
Level 8: ASI/Feat
Level 9: Expertise
You gain Expertise in two of your skill proficiencies of your choice.
Level 9: Shared Spells
When you cast a spell that targets another creature, you can choose to also have that spell target yourself.
Level 10: Magical Secrets
You learn two spells of 5th level or lower from the Divine, Primal, or Arcane spell list. You always have these spells prepared, and can cast each of these spells once without expending a spell slot, you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest.
Level 11: Universal Talent
As an action, you can touch one item that you normally cannot attune to and/or are not proficient in using and instantly attune that item and/or gain proficiency in using it. This attunement and/or proficiency lasts until you finish a short or long rest. When you attune an item in this way it does not count against the maximum number of items you have attuned.
Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest
Level 12: Feat/ASI
Level 14: Subclass Feature
Level 14: Magical Secrets
You learn two spells of 7th level or lower from the Divine, Primal, or Arcane spell list. You always have these spells prepared, and can cast each of these spells once without expending a spell slot, you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest.
Level 15: Improved Shared Spells
When you cast a spell that targets a friendly creature other than yourself, you can choose to have that spell target a number of friendly creatures (including yourself) equal to your Charisma modifier. All the creatures you target in this way must be within range of the spell you cast.
Once you have used this feature you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.
Level 16: Feat/ASI
Level 17: Subclass Feature
Level 18: Magical Secrets
You learn two spells of 9th level or lower from the Divine, Primal, or Arcane spell list. You always have these spells prepared, and can cast each of these spells once without expending a spell slot, you regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest.
Level 19: Feat/ASI
Level 20: Improved Jack of All Trades
You gain Expertise in all skills that you have proficiency with, and you gain proficiency with all skills with which you are not currently proficient.
Its terrible that bards have to wait until level 10 to become all powerful.
IMO, the Bard exposes the weakness of cramming all spell lists into three lists. That works fine for sorcerers and Wizards, and mostly for clerics and paladins,, but for bards, just give them their own separate list. Artificer will need that eventually anyway.
Mostly agree. I get their future proofing argument but I think the lack of identity it causes is a worse trade off.
It's pretty comical how much they screwed themselves over when it comes to Bard with the simplified spell lists.
Short of making Bards a proper spell list, I think the best solution is to make Healing Word an Enchantment spell (like they did Power Word Heal) and give Bards Enchantment, Illusion, and Divination spells from any list. Then change Magical Secrets back to a limited number of spells that can ignore the school restriction and there ya go, keep their "Jack of All Trades" theme in tact and give them their flavorful spells as a baseline.
I can’t stand the restriction by spell schools for any casters and hope they do away with it entirely.
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I'm not sure why you thought any of that, tbh. Bards are supposed to be bards. The rest is an interjection of opinion into game mechanics. A bard can mean different things to different people and that's why the design should be capable of encompassing as much of those tropes as possible. You can entirely create a 1e bard by taking fighter, rogue, and druid levels and the musician feat. Or you can use the UA bard to start with primal spells, add the valor college, and use skills inherent to the class. A 2e bard is easier to replicate now.
Regarding the "jack of all trades class", however, isn't half anything. A jack of all trades than cannot do anything well has no appeal at all. That style needs to be capable of doing many things well enough to be worth taking over a specialist class. That leads into the "ace in magic" comment that is incredibly inaccurate.
Knowing a variety of spells is part of the bard identity. By removing the daily preparation in favor of preparation by level advancement (ie spells known) the entire spell list becomes limited at the same time as it any spell becomes potentially available. It's a schrodinger's bard argument because the potential spells become essentially locked in.
Compare the bard to a cleric, for example. The bard can begin with divine spells and that's fine. The cleric will still have more cantrips, add more spells via domain, can add potent cantrip, can very much more easily swap out spells to access spell the bard would need to level up to change to, adds more spell power with the divine intervention abilities, and the subclasses add magical power. There is no way for a bard regardless of subclass to match the life cleric in that cleric's role because of those differences. The bard casts the spells at their basic level and the cleric casts those spells as enhanced by the cleric abilities.
The bard having access to more spells is a jack of all trades trait.
Magical secrets doesn't take place until 10th level. At that point the bard will have access to adding 8 spells over 11 levels from 3 lists through advancement when other classes can take from all of them daily. The bard can also replace 9 spells already taken with spells from 2 other lists, but to what end? If they wanted a lot of spells from those lists they would have started with them.
The reality is the bard starts with the list they want, cast spells equal to (at best) or less than (based on player build focus) other classes using that same list, and then they add a few spells from other lists like 5e bards can do now with magical secrets, but without the mixed starting list bards currently have. Almost nothing has changed in that regard, but it's clear bards who want to be healers won't heal like clerics who want to be healers, and bards who want to be nukers won't nuke like wizards who want to be nukers, and bards still won't have metamagic or invocations.
Post your OP UA bard build and we can look at it.
Then what's the point of specialist classes if there's an alternative that is just as good in what they specialuze in, but also has other roles covered? Sorcerers got metamagic, but bard is just a way more versatile sorcerer than sorcerer.
I'm assuming you haven't seen the College of Glamour subclass. Because it has abilities that enhance spells.
I don't mind them having access to all spell lists, I think it's a good idea in line with the idea of bards' versatility. But the difference between bards and other fullcasters isn't that significant. In 5e, their spell list limited them to a more of support/control role, but now... Like I said, sorcerer has metamagic, but bard has higher HP and AC, plenty of skills with expertise, etc. I wouldn't call that OP, but what's the point of sorcerer other than metamagic now? That is my main concern, bard kind of invades on sorcerer territory a bit too much..
In order....
That begs the question of whether there is an alternative that is just a good in what they specialize in. That's false. Again, try to make a healing bard that heals like a cleric or a nuker than nukes like a wizard or sorcerer. It's not possible. Bards aren't even capable of qualifying for priest or mage tagged feats. GG.
That argument looks like cherry-picking the most magical subclass as an over-all representation after bringing up the sorcerer as an example of a class without that broad range as an over-all representation of spellcasters. I think sorcerers should have the same choice of arcane, divine, or primal spells at first level as representative of their bloodline or origin story but that's getting off topic. ;-)
To me it looks like a classic bard enchanter trope and I'm not seeing how the bard suddenly is capable of healing better than a cleric or nuking better than a wizard etc in having a bonus charm or command. The reliance on the charm or illusion spells leads the bard into a focus instead of broader diversity. What class and subclass is the glamor bard outperforming with their spells?
Is the concern "ace in magic" or is it a comparison to sorcerers? Because those are not the same thing.
Bard vs Wizard: The wizard has the ability to swap out to a larger range of spells daily instead of by level, has an extra cantrip, arcane recovery to cast more spells per day, casts rituals from the spell book, modifies spells that remain exclusive, adds spell mastery, adds signature spells within the base class before adding a subclass, and can take feats with the mage tag. A bard needing to learn rituals spells to use them creates a situation where the wizard has access to more spells and recovery means casting them more often. Evoker is the only subclass presented so far and scupt spells, potent cantrip, empowered evocation, and overchannel are obviously well beyond what a bard can accomplish by gaining access to divine and primal spell lists at higher levels.
Bard vs Cleric: The cleric has the ability to swap out to a larger range of spells daily instead of by level, has an extra cantrip, can add another extra cantrip through thaumaturge, can add potent spellcasting, adds 10 prepared spells through domain before bards even gain magical secrets, adds a spell from divine intervention, adds a better version of wish through greater divine intervention, and can take feats with the priest tag. Domain spells can add a lot to versatility and gives more room for preparing rituals. Clerics are the iconic healer and there is no way for a bard to heal as well because of the divine spark aspect of channel divinity. There is no way for the bard to try and maintain the same level of healing on the non-healing focused cleric domains because of divine spark and larger number of spells available in gameplay. A bard who matches 8/10 of those healing spells (or other domain spells) has taken a serious hit on spells known leaving little to cover the rest of the basic spell list. A life cleric can create spell slots for abjuration spells by using channel divinity uses, which also recover on a short rest to enable extra spell slots per day on top of abilities like disciple of life, blessed healer, and supreme healing. Bards are closer to this class as support through bardic inspiration but even the base AC would still give clerics the advantage looking at the rest of the class.
Bard vs Druid: The druid has the ability to swap out to a larger range of spells daily instead of by level, can add an extra cantrip through magician that also adds a massive range boost later, can add an extra spell slot with wild resurgence, adds a lot of spells prepared with circle spells, can add potent cantrip, and can take feats with the priest tag. I went over the benefits of extra spell preparation already, so I'll skip to a comparison the circle of land. Land druids can change their circle spells on a long rest, recover spell slots with natural recovery, and gain a free use of a circle spell. Between natural recovery, the bonus spell, nature's resurgence, and nature magician the druid can cast a significantly larger number of spells per day than the bard can.
All three of those classes can swap spells withing a broad range far faster than a bard can level up and each has access to more spells prepared than the bard knows. The bard starts to add spells from other lists very slowing at higher levels in comparison. The best thing that magical secrets can do is slowly add spells that are already available to the players'. There's nothing inherently more powerful about also giving them to bards (there can be a benefit from spells that interact with skill proficiencies, however). Choosing a spell list creates the bard style. Magical secrets plays into the jack of all trades by allowing that slow incorporation with other spell lists.
Bard vs Warlock: Even with the change from pact magic to the UA spell progression mystic arcanum enables spell progression into the higher level spells while patron spells give warlocks more options to use with their spell slots than bards, and invocations continue to give at-will spells and/or create eldritch blast benefits beyond what bards replicate with other cantrip attacks. The warlock can also take mage tagged feats.
Bard vs Paladin: Paladins are worth a mention here for the same reason domain, circle, or patron spells matter. Paladins add smite spells and oath spells to spells prepared as well as some additional class spells. Prepping 15 spells and knowing 6 class spells (smites) and adding 10 oath spells is a lot more options with which to use the 7 less spell slots. Paladins can change a prepared spell on a long rest. Paladins can take priest tagged feats. Here is a table of spells known to stress how much a paladin can do in comparison:
The paladin has the smites and oath spells added. Additional magic actions from the class table are not included. The warlock has the tome as the standard spell caster style and includes patron spells. 1 SLA invocation and up to 4 mystic arcanum are assumed and additional invocations are available. Other magic actions from the class table are not included.
These classes are getting into a category that can be argued with benefits as spell casters over bards and magical secrets despite the difference in progression. In gameplay, paladins and warlocks tend to be sturdier and apply more damage with at-will attack options. They have more spells at any given time in game play to have a wider variety of options in game play. Magical secrets gives more options in the character design space but it doesn't give more options in the game play space. This allows both of those classes to be more combat effective most of the time, gives room for a lot of rituals that are mostly low level already, and use most of their other spells just as effectively as a bard can. The bard benefit in spell casting is the limited opportunity to shine with a few high level slots and spells.
There are bard subclasses that can add a few more spells but not many spells. And, again, magical secrets is a slow gain over a long time at high levels. It's an exercise in catching up dressed up to look good. That leads to the sorcerer...
Bard vs Sorcerer: If a bard starts with the arcane spell list they have a very similar spell list to the sorcerer, true. The sorcerer did not gain bonus spells known through the bloodline in the draconic subclass in the UA5 release so they have similar spells known using a similar mechanic for those spells known. There is a slight difference in the spell list created by the class, however. Bards have the option to learn the vicious mockery cantrip as one of their two cantrips. Sorcerers gain sorcerous burst as an additional cantrip unavailable to bards for five cantrips at 1st level to the bard's two. That means a lot at low levels. Sorcerers also learn chaos bolt, sorcerous vitality, arcane eruption, sorcery incarnate, and arcane apotheosis spells unavailable to bards for a total of 7 cantrips to the bard's 4 and 27 spells known compared to the bard's 22. The sorcerer also has font of magic, metamagic, and can learn feats with the mage tag.
A sorcerer is immediately better than a bard with the gap in cantrips and can take any arcane spell the bard can, have a few more spell options, use font of magic on spell slot creation only, and the extra spells known and spells cast would make for a better spell caster than the bard. Using metamagic mean the sorcerer can instead cast every spell the bard can and make it better, plus have a few more spells available. The bard benefits by skills and bardic inspiration. IME, metamagic is more impactful used less often.
A final reminder, bards don't get magical secrets until higher levels. The first 9 levels all they do with spells is cast basic spells of the same list as another class. Magical secrets following spells know progression give one at levels 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, and 20. One of these is going to be wish so a bard compared to a sorcerer isn't taking a secret outside of the base spell list and cannot cast wish as well as that sorcerer (who gained it for free). Many of those secrets are still like to come from the primary spell list because they fit in with the original them of the character.
The player can trade off spells from the original spell list but why would they invest heavily in that instead of taking a different spell list in the first place and how would doing so change anything? That's giving up a presumably useful spell for an different useful spell as more of a side grade than an upgrade given the limitation on high level spell slots too. It's not the huge advantage some people think it is.
I hope that helps. Spellcasting is a very strong ability but giving high level bards a strong selection that they acquire slowing doesn't give them the potency within those spells that other classes can give; it doesn't grant spell slot replenishment that casters like wizards, druids, and sorcerer enjoy; and it doesn't give the in play spell variety most spell casters enjoy over bards.
I rather like it, but I have a question. It doesn't explicitly say what list they use as they level up and gain known spells/known cantrips. I assume from what you said for first level that it's any of the 3 lists, but I think it should be explicit.
And, just to be sure I understand the purpose of Magical Secrets in this context: It's not so much that you get to learn spells outside your usual scope (like a 5e Bard), but that you gain extra spells known, that come with 1 free casting each. Right?
(re-reading) oh...wait... it's also giving them access to high level spells that they otherwise can't get via the half-caster progression. Sort of like the Warlock's mystic arcanum. I like that idea.
I like a lot of these ideas, only thing I'd maybe tweak is if they have access to all spell lists, they should maybe be restricted to a choice of schools of magic instead (
excluding evocation?) which makes the magical secrets choices even more important if they ignore this restriction.I'd start at three schools initially, with a recommendation of abjuration, enchantment and illusion (pretty close to what a Bard's list looks like now) and a fourth choice later on. Swapping for divination can make a more spiritual/mystical bard, necromancy could really benefit spirits and so-on.
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I'm not fond of per-school limitations. I thought it was the most annoying wrinkle to the first attempt at a OneD&D Bard.
The school restrictions would be instead of spell list restrictions, i.e- it's essentially a "build your own spell-list".
Abjuration, Enchantment and Illusion covers most of what 5e Bards currently get, with a bunch of new spells, and you'd still have Magical Secrets and a later fourth school choice to fill in any gaps or areas you'd like to specialise in.
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Excluding evocation is not necessary for a half-caster Bard because the slow spell level progression means evocation spells will suck for them anyway. Getting Fireball at level 9 is not an impressive thing and they'd be way better off taking Hypnotic Pattern instead simply from a pure power stand point, the handful that aren't terrible for them - e.g. Magic Missile, or ones with debuffs attached - don't break the "feel" of a bard. Plus there are spells like Thunderwave, Shatter, Thunderstep, and Sending that are evocation but super-thematic for bards, not to mention that heavy-metal themed bards will totally want Wall of Fire and other pyrotechnics-flavourful spells. The half-caster bard is limited to buff and save-or-suck spells purely by the nature of the scalability of those spells compared to the flashy evocation ones which will always be massively sub-par compared to a full caster. So just let them have access to all the spells and build what they want.
Divine Bards are:
Militant monastic orders are Clerics (especially, but not exclusively, War Domain Clerics) and pre-5e Paladins.
Clerics lack the social skill options for the Preacher and Political parts of Ordained Church life. Some Clerical domains can embrace the scholarly angles, so (IMO) that's a 50/50 split on Divine Bards vs Clerics.
To say nothing of Priests of a God/Goddess of Music, the person in charge of the choir at a standard church, a better option for a priesthood that focuses on deceit, and so on. Or take inspiration from the Kalevala - magic and music are intertwined in the Finnish Epic,
The Primal spell list is a throwback to 1rst edition, when Bards (after several levels as a fighter, then a thief) got access to the Druid spell list as standard (arcane bards came about in 2nd edition). But add in a Fey focused bard and Primal is an excellent list for them. Possibly even the priest class of a society where knowledge is passed on in song.
Primal domain should work well for Valour bards: access to Shillelagh enables a SAD melee build (benefiting from training with medium armour and shields).
Unless the character 2-3 Levels into Cleric I do not see them getting some CLASS feature to heal. At later levels they get access to Divine spells to heal. (Why. No idea)
A Divine spell draws on the power of gods and the Outer Planes. Clerics and Paladins harness this magic. - SO let us also give it to the BARD.