They're asking for everyone's opinions. Ergo they want to know if the majority of the players want changes. As I've said before, please don't gatekeep this just because you're not getting what you want from it. The entire point of all this is them polling the entire playerbase, not just the people who want a systemic overhaul.
Tyranny of the Majority, Ace. When "A Majority" of people are given absolute ironclad control over what happens to everybody the people not in that majority are left to rot and die without any support or aid. You are effectively saying "if you don't consent to the majority opinion you don't deserve to play D&D and should quit and leave." Simply citing "But majority! Majority!" at me is not, in fact, a valid counter-argument to the fact that the 2014 game already exists, it will continue to exist, and everybody who hates and despises all forms of change forever can just play the 2014 game without constantly destroying EVERY. SINGLE. DOCUMENT! For the people who actually wanted what Wizards promised us and you all are stealing from us when Wizards said they would make the 2024 book cycle a true evolution of 5e.
All the people I know loved the new Warlock as half-caster, damn we are plenty of full-casters, specially on Arcane domain. It only required some attunement for balance.
Instead wipe everything, if majority don’t want changes OK, but register those changes in some kind of DMG or alternative PHB for those who like them.
Probably at this point it would fit more for me as seems I’d be applying more homebrew than rules at this rate (as already mentioned at some post), and all those alternatives are perfect for that. So don’t touch much the rules, as seems is going to happen, but open our minds with plenty of possibilities and then each one apply the desired ones adapting to their games.
They're asking for everyone's opinions. Ergo they want to know if the majority of the players want changes. As I've said before, please don't gatekeep this just because you're not getting what you want from it. The entire point of all this is them polling the entire playerbase, not just the people who want a systemic overhaul.
Tyranny of the Majority, Ace. When "A Majority" of people are given absolute ironclad control over what happens to everybody the people not in that majority are left to rot and die without any support or aid. You are effectively saying "if you don't consent to the majority opinion you don't deserve to play D&D and should quit and leave." Simply citing "But majority! Majority!" at me is not, in fact, a valid counter-argument to the fact that the 2014 game already exists, it will continue to exist, and everybody who hates and despises all forms of change forever can just play the 2014 game without constantly destroying EVERY. SINGLE. DOCUMENT! For the people who actually wanted what Wizards promised us and you all are stealing from us when Wizards said they would make the 2024 book cycle a true evolution of 5e.
Yet here's the thing, if all the changes you wanted were a part of the majority opinion, you would obviously be fine with it and wouldn't be trying to start a forum fire right now. Obviously it's imperfect, but the survey system still does an excellent job at determining what most players want from and for D&D.
Tyranny of the Majority is when 51% or more of a group want something that is brutally oppressive or actively awful for the minority. This is not the case whatsoever in this situation, and you can always keep enjoying 5e if One D&D seems terrible to you. Additionally, it isn't oppressive for people to have a differing opinions or preferences on aspects of D&D.
And to be brutally honest, the majority doesn't hate every change and want nothing but a few spelling corrections and maybe one or two minor rules tweaks. I mean, for all your assertions about how "the majority" loathes Weapon Mastery, J Craw said that well above 80% of fans supported it. Just because some think the mechanics could be improved doesn't mean they think it should be scrapped and thrown into a trash dump, as this pretty clearly conveys.
I mean, I was pretty ambivalent about it; it was honestly more a boondoggle feature than a significant change for me. You can make arguments for and against any of the mental stats being applicable (does INT fit because there’s an element of independent research to the class, or does it not really work because compared to a Wizard they’re not doing nearly as much personal application, for instance).
There are currently three hundred and seventeen Charisma-based classes for people who want to be null-IQ sex pests. There is currently ONE class for people who do not think the Intelligence score and characters with the reasoning abilities of a turgid squirrel is actively detrimental to D&D.
Honestly, I wish the Stats were balanced in a different way so that we could spread the casting out even further. Bard and Paladin as Charisma full and half-casters, Wizard and Warlock as Intelligence full and half-casters, Cleric and Druid as Wisdom full and half-casters, Sorcerer and Ranger as Constitution full and half-casters (with Ranger being redesigned to accept a Blood Hunter-like subclass)... I want to keep going, but while I can kinda process what a Dexterity caster would be like (Artificer, maybe?), I've got no idea what do to with 'casting with Strength'... I want to, because I really like symmetry, but I'm just not seeing it.
I dont know if this is the right thread for this question tbh, but does anyone have a solid idea for keeping the general vibe of pact magic, but changing it to a long rest recharge instead of short rests? Personally I like the uniqueness of how the warlocks spell slots work, but I dont enjoy the very different relationship warlocks have to short rests compared to the rest of the party.
Other option would be an ability to regen all your pact magic slots, make it a 1 minute casting time and have a number of uses like PB number of uses per long rest.
Doesn't necessarily solve everything but it would be an option.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I 100% get your frustration. It's really disheartening to see interesting changes just get completely discarded. In many ways I feel the same as you. However I think you may be a bit too invested in this. Don't get me wrong, its not bad that you care for this game. I'd say its a good thing overall. But I can't help but feel like your putting too much of yourself into this.
It may be worth considering at what point you need to step back. This may be our hobby, but it's not our lives.
100% this.
I dislike the fact that the warlock changes are being rolled back. I feel like people who loved pact magic could have continued to play the 2014 warlock and been just fine. I dislike the idea that warlocks will be 100% locked into charisma again. If we're going to be locked in to a single stat, for the love of all that is (un)holy make it INT like it was in the original 2014 playtest.
That said, changes that I don't like are not the end of the world. You win some and lose some. Anyone who looked at the outrage of "but muh unique system" who didn't think that it wouldn't be tossed was deluding themselves. While I like pact magic, I like half casting better. Much better. But I'll deal with it. Hopefully they'll come up with something that doesn't make me feel like I have to multiclass just to make it feel good. I'm much more butthurt over territorial crybaby wizards getting my access to spells re-capped than I am losing the arcane half caster I have been wanting since 2014.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Or, spell points instead of slots with some limited recharge mechanism that would give you points per day equivalent to the old ability to cast your max level spells X times per day where X includes the average number of rests WotC assumed in the old design. If you want to use lower numbers of max level spells that's fine. If you want to use a larger volume of lower level spells that's also fine. All the flavor of the existing pact system, plus the increased flexibility some want.
The playtest warlock was an interesting class, and with some tweaks might have been a good class, but it was not the same class, so I can understand fans of the 2014 warlock being pretty unenthusiastic.
the 2014 warlock was more interesting than it was good. The new one solved most of the problems (while creating a few new ones). hopefully they will solve the old problems in a new way, but I really rather doubt it. Being able to slotless cast mask of many faces isn't the kind of fix that hold even a bit of interest. Let me slotlessly cast hex prof bonuses per day however, might gain my attention. Implementation will be key.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
much like statistics, poll results can be skewed by the people reading it. these guys in the video are employees and if their boss says the info reads differently on a second glance, then oh gosh boss you sure are smart. those "people who don't want a massive overhaul" are the shareholders. if anything, these guys probably had to sit through tense camera-on teams meetings asking why big changes were being tested if the (corporate) desired product was supposed to be a polished and inoffensive version as the bedrock to build off into the future. not calling anyone an unsung hero, I'm just saying maybe "your opinion matters" was for a smaller subset of items than playtesters (and maybe devs too) expected going in.
i feel lucky that they didn't just update the art and run an ai refresh across the text. significant changes for another day, in another book.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
I dont know if this is the right thread for this question tbh, but does anyone have a solid idea for keeping the general vibe of pact magic, but changing it to a long rest recharge instead of short rests? Personally I like the uniqueness of how the warlocks spell slots work, but I dont enjoy the very different relationship warlocks have to short rests compared to the rest of the party.
Other option would be an ability to regen all your pact magic slots, make it a 1 minute casting time and have a number of uses like PB number of uses per long rest.
Doesn't necessarily solve everything but it would be an option.
witches brew. during downtime or a long rest the warlock may infuse a random-seeming mix of common (and uncommon) herbs with carefully siphoned power from a major pact bond. this results in warlock level / 5 (rounded up) servings of brew. imbibing one causes the warlock to go stiff as a board (dazed) for a minute. immediately afterward they regain 1hp and refresh all pact slots. anyone else who drinks one is unaffected except to have tasted something entirely unpleasant.
1) I'm really, really hoping their solution isn't just "more pact slots per short rest." Not only is that dreadfully unimaginative, it has power implications too. Say you make it PB pact slots per SR, at level 9 that's four 5th-level slots per short rest, i.e. roughly twelve 5th-level slots per day when other full casters are working with 1-2 at most. Sure they'll have no low level slots, but with that many nukes it hardly matters.
My suspicion is that they will change the way of recovering the spell slot. That you can recover your spell slots x times a day (PB maybe), investing 10 minutes or something similar.
I don't like that solution at all, by the way. But I'm afraid that's what they're going to do. Or maybe you can get more spell slots through EI.
we know they will get more invocations. They said that. I just hope for some mechanically useful invocations and not RP junk like mask of many faces which is an instant non-pick.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
we know they will get more invocations. They said that. I just hope for some mechanically useful invocations and not RP junk like mask of many faces which is an instant non-pick.
I've known people who took mask of many faces and found it pretty useful. The invocations I find utterly worthless are the ones that don't do anything but add a spell to your spell list, such as bewitching whispers.
1) I'm really, really hoping their solution isn't just "more pact slots per short rest." Not only is that dreadfully unimaginative, it has power implications too. Say you make it PB pact slots per SR, at level 9 that's four 5th-level slots per short rest, i.e. roughly twelve 5th-level slots per day when other full casters are working with 1-2 at most. Sure they'll have no low level slots, but with that many nukes it hardly matters.
My suspicion is that they will change the way of recovering the spell slot. That you can recover your spell slots x times a day (PB maybe), investing 10 minutes or something similar.
I don't like that solution at all, by the way. But I'm afraid that's what they're going to do. Or maybe you can get more spell slots through EI.
I am actually figuring we will get the channel divinity treatment.
Recovering 1 spell on a short.
If I were designing it that way.
1 slot at 1st, 2 at 2, 3 at 3 4 at 4 to 9, 5 at 10.
Essentially at level 3 the warlock would have half the slots but 1 more second. And once you reach 4 slots stay there for a while because of how spells scale.
And that is terrible in comparison to half casting
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
My suspicion is that they will change the way of recovering the spell slot. That you can recover your spell slots x times a day (PB maybe), investing 10 minutes or something similar.
I don't like that solution at all, by the way. But I'm afraid that's what they're going to do. Or maybe you can get more spell slots through EI.
I am actually figuring we will get the channel divinity treatment.
Recovering 1 spell on a short.
If I were designing it that way.
1 slot at 1st, 2 at 2, 3 at 3 4 at 4 to 9, 5 at 10.
Essentially at level 3 the warlock would have half the slots but 1 more second. And once you reach 4 slots stay there for a while because of how spells scale.
Given our current playtest, I think what's more likely is that we will just get a "Take a minute long short rest once per day" feature ALA Monk. It would be an AWFUL fix, but I can see them doing that atm.
I am actually figuring we will get the channel divinity treatment.
Recovering 1 spell on a short.
If I were designing it that way.
1 slot at 1st, 2 at 2, 3 at 3 4 at 4 to 9, 5 at 10.
Essentially at level 3 the warlock would have half the slots but 1 more second. And once you reach 4 slots stay there for a while because of how spells scale.
four 3rd-level slots at 5/4th-level slots at 7, with even more if you take short rests, just seems excessive to me. But I won't bother speculating until packet 8, which I'm guessing is not too far off.
we know they will get more invocations. They said that. I just hope for some mechanically useful invocations and not RP junk like mask of many faces which is an instant non-pick.
I've known people who took mask of many faces and found it pretty useful. The invocations I find utterly worthless are the ones that don't do anything but add a spell to your spell list, such as bewitching whispers.
The worst of the worst are the ones that allow the Warlock to cast a spell once per long rest by using a pact slot. At least the ones that allow it to be cast without added one spell per long rest to the total - and those can be improved by allowing pact slots to be used to cast them more than once per long rest.
My suspicion is that they will change the way of recovering the spell slot. That you can recover your spell slots x times a day (PB maybe), investing 10 minutes or something similar.
I don't like that solution at all, by the way. But I'm afraid that's what they're going to do. Or maybe you can get more spell slots through EI.
I am actually figuring we will get the channel divinity treatment.
Recovering 1 spell on a short.
If I were designing it that way.
1 slot at 1st, 2 at 2, 3 at 3 4 at 4 to 9, 5 at 10.
Essentially at level 3 the warlock would have half the slots but 1 more second. And once you reach 4 slots stay there for a while because of how spells scale.
Given our current playtest, I think what's more likely is that we will just get a "Take a minute long short rest once per day" feature ALA Monk. It would be an AWFUL fix, but I can see them doing that atm.
I'm thinking something along the lines of a 3rd pact slot at level 5 or 6, a once per long rest short recovery somewhere in tier 3, and then 1-3 more invocations by level 20. One free casting of Patron spells per tier in the subclass would also go a long ways towards helping the lack of spells people feel without overshadowing traditional casters.
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Tyranny of the Majority, Ace. When "A Majority" of people are given absolute ironclad control over what happens to everybody the people not in that majority are left to rot and die without any support or aid. You are effectively saying "if you don't consent to the majority opinion you don't deserve to play D&D and should quit and leave." Simply citing "But majority! Majority!" at me is not, in fact, a valid counter-argument to the fact that the 2014 game already exists, it will continue to exist, and everybody who hates and despises all forms of change forever can just play the 2014 game without constantly destroying EVERY. SINGLE. DOCUMENT! For the people who actually wanted what Wizards promised us and you all are stealing from us when Wizards said they would make the 2024 book cycle a true evolution of 5e.
Please do not contact or message me.
All the people I know loved the new Warlock as half-caster, damn we are plenty of full-casters, specially on Arcane domain. It only required some attunement for balance.
Instead wipe everything, if majority don’t want changes OK, but register those changes in some kind of DMG or alternative PHB for those who like them.
Probably at this point it would fit more for me as seems I’d be applying more homebrew than rules at this rate (as already mentioned at some post), and all those alternatives are perfect for that. So don’t touch much the rules, as seems is going to happen, but open our minds with plenty of possibilities and then each one apply the desired ones adapting to their games.
Yet here's the thing, if all the changes you wanted were a part of the majority opinion, you would obviously be fine with it and wouldn't be trying to start a forum fire right now. Obviously it's imperfect, but the survey system still does an excellent job at determining what most players want from and for D&D.
Tyranny of the Majority is when 51% or more of a group want something that is brutally oppressive or actively awful for the minority. This is not the case whatsoever in this situation, and you can always keep enjoying 5e if One D&D seems terrible to you. Additionally, it isn't oppressive for people to have a differing opinions or preferences on aspects of D&D.
And to be brutally honest, the majority doesn't hate every change and want nothing but a few spelling corrections and maybe one or two minor rules tweaks. I mean, for all your assertions about how "the majority" loathes Weapon Mastery, J Craw said that well above 80% of fans supported it. Just because some think the mechanics could be improved doesn't mean they think it should be scrapped and thrown into a trash dump, as this pretty clearly conveys.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
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HERE.Honestly, I wish the Stats were balanced in a different way so that we could spread the casting out even further. Bard and Paladin as Charisma full and half-casters, Wizard and Warlock as Intelligence full and half-casters, Cleric and Druid as Wisdom full and half-casters, Sorcerer and Ranger as Constitution full and half-casters (with Ranger being redesigned to accept a Blood Hunter-like subclass)... I want to keep going, but while I can kinda process what a Dexterity caster would be like (Artificer, maybe?), I've got no idea what do to with 'casting with Strength'... I want to, because I really like symmetry, but I'm just not seeing it.
Other option would be an ability to regen all your pact magic slots, make it a 1 minute casting time and have a number of uses like PB number of uses per long rest.
Doesn't necessarily solve everything but it would be an option.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
100% this.
I dislike the fact that the warlock changes are being rolled back. I feel like people who loved pact magic could have continued to play the 2014 warlock and been just fine. I dislike the idea that warlocks will be 100% locked into charisma again. If we're going to be locked in to a single stat, for the love of all that is (un)holy make it INT like it was in the original 2014 playtest.
That said, changes that I don't like are not the end of the world. You win some and lose some. Anyone who looked at the outrage of "but muh unique system" who didn't think that it wouldn't be tossed was deluding themselves. While I like pact magic, I like half casting better. Much better. But I'll deal with it. Hopefully they'll come up with something that doesn't make me feel like I have to multiclass just to make it feel good. I'm much more butthurt over territorial crybaby wizards getting my access to spells re-capped than I am losing the arcane half caster I have been wanting since 2014.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Or, spell points instead of slots with some limited recharge mechanism that would give you points per day equivalent to the old ability to cast your max level spells X times per day where X includes the average number of rests WotC assumed in the old design. If you want to use lower numbers of max level spells that's fine. If you want to use a larger volume of lower level spells that's also fine. All the flavor of the existing pact system, plus the increased flexibility some want.
The playtest warlock was an interesting class, and with some tweaks might have been a good class, but it was not the same class, so I can understand fans of the 2014 warlock being pretty unenthusiastic.
the 2014 warlock was more interesting than it was good. The new one solved most of the problems (while creating a few new ones). hopefully they will solve the old problems in a new way, but I really rather doubt it. Being able to slotless cast mask of many faces isn't the kind of fix that hold even a bit of interest. Let me slotlessly cast hex prof bonuses per day however, might gain my attention. Implementation will be key.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
much like statistics, poll results can be skewed by the people reading it. these guys in the video are employees and if their boss says the info reads differently on a second glance, then oh gosh boss you sure are smart. those "people who don't want a massive overhaul" are the shareholders. if anything, these guys probably had to sit through tense camera-on teams meetings asking why big changes were being tested if the (corporate) desired product was supposed to be a polished and inoffensive version as the bedrock to build off into the future. not calling anyone an unsung hero, I'm just saying maybe "your opinion matters" was for a smaller subset of items than playtesters (and maybe devs too) expected going in.
i feel lucky that they didn't just update the art and run an ai refresh across the text. significant changes for another day, in another book.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
witches brew. during downtime or a long rest the warlock may infuse a random-seeming mix of common (and uncommon) herbs with carefully siphoned power from a major pact bond. this results in warlock level / 5 (rounded up) servings of brew. imbibing one causes the warlock to go stiff as a board (dazed) for a minute. immediately afterward they regain 1hp and refresh all pact slots. anyone else who drinks one is unaffected except to have tasted something entirely unpleasant.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
My suspicion is that they will change the way of recovering the spell slot. That you can recover your spell slots x times a day (PB maybe), investing 10 minutes or something similar.
I don't like that solution at all, by the way. But I'm afraid that's what they're going to do. Or maybe you can get more spell slots through EI.
we know they will get more invocations. They said that. I just hope for some mechanically useful invocations and not RP junk like mask of many faces which is an instant non-pick.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I've known people who took mask of many faces and found it pretty useful. The invocations I find utterly worthless are the ones that don't do anything but add a spell to your spell list, such as bewitching whispers.
I am actually figuring we will get the channel divinity treatment.
Recovering 1 spell on a short.
If I were designing it that way.
1 slot at 1st, 2 at 2, 3 at 3 4 at 4 to 9, 5 at 10.
Essentially at level 3 the warlock would have half the slots but 1 more second. And once you reach 4 slots stay there for a while because of how spells scale.
And that is terrible in comparison to half casting
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Given our current playtest, I think what's more likely is that we will just get a "Take a minute long short rest once per day" feature ALA Monk. It would be an AWFUL fix, but I can see them doing that atm.
four 3rd-level slots at 5/4th-level slots at 7, with even more if you take short rests, just seems excessive to me. But I won't bother speculating until packet 8, which I'm guessing is not too far off.
The worst of the worst are the ones that allow the Warlock to cast a spell once per long rest by using a pact slot. At least the ones that allow it to be cast without added one spell per long rest to the total - and those can be improved by allowing pact slots to be used to cast them more than once per long rest.
I'm thinking something along the lines of a 3rd pact slot at level 5 or 6, a once per long rest short recovery somewhere in tier 3, and then 1-3 more invocations by level 20. One free casting of Patron spells per tier in the subclass would also go a long ways towards helping the lack of spells people feel without overshadowing traditional casters.