It has been brought up in the Monk threads that the recent Weapon Masteries make Unarmed Strikes Grapple/Shove virtually obsolete. Topple provides damage and the possibility of prone. The Push Weapon Mastery provides damage and distance with no save. Therefore I believe Unarmed Strikes Grapple/Shove need to be slightly improved to be viable compared to Weapon Mastery.
As a historical reminder, 5E PHB Grappling/Shoving used opposed skill checks "a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use)". Niche builds of Barbarian Rage + Athletics Expertise or Rune Knight Giant Might + Expertise or Shield Master exist with very high chances of winning opposed skill checks. Against minor enemies or hordes Grappling does not make sense, as dealing damage to slay monsters is more effective. Yet this strategy can reliably shutdown solitary high level monsters (bosses) [yes, I know as a DM that throwing a single monster at a party is a disaster]. Also Grapple or Prone causes flying creatures to fall, making it the prime tactic for aerial combat.
Thus in 1DND UA the initial Grapple/Shove attempt was changed to a save in addition to the removal of other opposed skill checks. Few monsters have Athletics/Acrobatics skills, but many have STR/DEX saves. High level monsters can use Legendary Resistances. Yet because the target chooses the STR/DEX save, Shoves and Grapples are unreliable.
UA6 Unarmed Strike Reference
An Unarmed Strike is a Melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you. Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect:
Damage. You make an attack roll against the target. Your bonus to hit equals your Strength modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. On a hit, the target takes Bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.
Grapple. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or it has the Grappled condition. The DC for the saving throw and any escape attempts equals 8 + your Strength modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab it.
Shove. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push the target 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition. The DC for the saving throw equals 8 + your Strength modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. This shove is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you.
GRAPPLED [CONDITION]
While Grappled, you experience the following effects:
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on attack rolls against any target other than the grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you when it Moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1 extra foot, unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than the grappler.
Escape. While Grappled, you can use your action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on yourself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between you and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
Proposed changes
Shove Prone and Shove Push should be listed separately. Making an enemy Prone is generally better than moving them, with the exceptions of environmental hazards. Shove Prone could be renamed Trip (or something else to not clash with Rogue's new Cunning Strike by the same name). Shove Push could keep the name Shove.
Shove Push should not require a save. A disclaimer of "This cannot be used to break grapples" would be needed. STR criteria can be given such as "You may use this Shove against a Medium sized creature if your Strength score is 11 or higher. You may use this Shove against a Large sized creature if your Strength score is 15 or higher." where the numbers could be tweaked.
Shove Prone (Trip) "The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw". Removing the STR save makes this practical on large clumsy creatures like Ogres or heavily armored humanoids. Using only the DEX save makes this attack different from Topple which uses a STR save.
Grapple "The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw". Removing the DEX save makes this practical on highly mobile monsters like Goblins or Rogues.
Monsters (and Druids) with Multi-attack can replace any one of their attacks with an Unarmed Strike. Such as a Dragon using a claw attack to Grapple a player character.
Monks can use DEX or WIS for their Unarmed Strike DC.
During a Barbarian's Rage, the save or skill check against Grapple/Shove are made with Disadvantage.
DC = 8 + your Athletics bonus. This would make Athletics proficiency and expertise useful in building a character. Monks could be changed to use Acrobatics or Insight. The downsides to this are that it would be a unique calculation of DC that could go higher than usual. Which makes me hesitant about this idea.
I think no changes should be made to the Grappled condition or the Unarmed Strikes for Damage.
With these changes, Unarmed Strikes for Grappling and Shoving can make tactical sense. Causing either Grappled or Prone are more reliable. Causing both Grappled and Prone is less likely because a monster will likely have either STR or DEX save proficiency.
Is this sufficient to make Unarmed Strikes Grapples & Shoves viable compared to Weapon Masteries? Does this make Grapple builds too strong against bosses?
In the current environment I think you are certainly on the right path. Grappling options being included in weapon masteries feels like it dilutes any point to most grappling features.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Shoving is dead, there is no saving it. Shove was already extremely niche and it's only advantage was the high success rate from it being a check, but there are so many otherways to produced a more impactful forced movement from spells to warlock invocations to Telekinesis feat to Shield Master etc... etc....
Grappling is still valid since it prevents enemies from moving and allows you to move them, it's just really sad that you can't build for it anymore.
the first grapple rules, that made it attack based, and feats around grapple were probably designed to give unarmed strikes comparable value to weapons/mastery.
however its still kind of inferior because A, everyone has it, B its not damage +effect, its damage or effect. And lastly weapon mastery creates tactical options, the monk of UA 6 only has simple weapon options, and simple weapons are all designed to be inferior weapons for non martials.
even that said, they walked back those changes, and now grapples/shoves are extremely bad for monks, and even more inferior to masteries.
To fix it and keep the same concept, for monks, grapple/shove need to be riders, they then need access to martial weapons, so they are not inferior with every non UA mastery. Or they get back their MA dice to monk weapons. Or, they let UA have any one mastery per day.
Open Hand needs a rework, because its features are redundant now. My suggestion; (level 3) two types of MA dice, each gets its own mastery. one is more accurate, and one is more damage. (other Open Hand features also need a rework but thats a different topic)
Monk has many other issues, but one huge one is UA place, and monk's place in a weapon mastery world.
Good point. Shove is already a rider in the Topple and Push masteries. A Grapple mastery might be a good replacement for Flex (except for sword&board). What would Grapple look like as a Weapon Mastery? A STR save similar to Topple? An auto grapple if you exceed the AC by some amount (such as 5, 10, or the target's Proficiency Bonus)?
Good point. Shove is already a rider in the Topple and Push masteries. A Grapple mastery might be a good replacement for Flex (except for sword&board). What would Grapple look like as a Weapon Mastery? A STR save similar to Topple? An auto grapple if you exceed the AC by some amount (such as 5, 10, or the target's Proficiency Bonus)?
Grapple doesn't work as a weapon mastery because it requires an open hand so can't make attacks with your weapon while doing it. Grapple could become a BA for everyone which would be fun (if they returned it to an ability check so it actually has a good chance to succeed).
Good point. Shove is already a rider in the Topple and Push masteries. A Grapple mastery might be a good replacement for Flex (except for sword&board). What would Grapple look like as a Weapon Mastery? A STR save similar to Topple? An auto grapple if you exceed the AC by some amount (such as 5, 10, or the target's Proficiency Bonus)?
Grapple doesn't work as a weapon mastery because it requires an open hand so can't make attacks with your weapon while doing it. Grapple could become a BA for everyone which would be fun (if they returned it to an ability check so it actually has a good chance to succeed).
I think the implication is grapple as a possible unarmed mastery.
BA is kind of inferior to the current implementation for martials which is any unarmed attack, (attack , ba attack or reaction attack)
Good point. Shove is already a rider in the Topple and Push masteries. A Grapple mastery might be a good replacement for Flex (except for sword&board). What would Grapple look like as a Weapon Mastery? A STR save similar to Topple? An auto grapple if you exceed the AC by some amount (such as 5, 10, or the target's Proficiency Bonus)?
Grapple on a weapon : put it on polearms
historically a hook was on many polearms for literally grappling mounted opponents. could be limited to creatures one size larger than you, or mounted opponents
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It has been brought up in the Monk threads that the recent Weapon Masteries make Unarmed Strikes Grapple/Shove virtually obsolete. Topple provides damage and the possibility of prone. The Push Weapon Mastery provides damage and distance with no save. Therefore I believe Unarmed Strikes Grapple/Shove need to be slightly improved to be viable compared to Weapon Mastery.
As a historical reminder, 5E PHB Grappling/Shoving used opposed skill checks "a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use)". Niche builds of Barbarian Rage + Athletics Expertise or Rune Knight Giant Might + Expertise or Shield Master exist with very high chances of winning opposed skill checks. Against minor enemies or hordes Grappling does not make sense, as dealing damage to slay monsters is more effective. Yet this strategy can reliably shutdown solitary high level monsters (bosses) [yes, I know as a DM that throwing a single monster at a party is a disaster]. Also Grapple or Prone causes flying creatures to fall, making it the prime tactic for aerial combat.
Thus in 1DND UA the initial Grapple/Shove attempt was changed to a save in addition to the removal of other opposed skill checks. Few monsters have Athletics/Acrobatics skills, but many have STR/DEX saves. High level monsters can use Legendary Resistances. Yet because the target chooses the STR/DEX save, Shoves and Grapples are unreliable.
UA6 Unarmed Strike Reference
An Unarmed Strike is a Melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you. Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect:
Damage. You make an attack roll against the target. Your bonus to hit equals your Strength modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. On a hit, the target takes Bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.
Grapple. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or it has the Grappled condition. The DC for the saving throw and any escape attempts equals 8 + your Strength modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab it.
Shove. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push the target 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition. The DC for the saving throw equals 8 + your Strength modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. This shove is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you.
GRAPPLED [CONDITION]
While Grappled, you experience the following effects:
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on attack rolls against any target other than the grappler.
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you when it Moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1 extra foot, unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than the grappler.
Escape. While Grappled, you can use your action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on yourself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between you and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
Proposed changes
I think no changes should be made to the Grappled condition or the Unarmed Strikes for Damage.
With these changes, Unarmed Strikes for Grappling and Shoving can make tactical sense. Causing either Grappled or Prone are more reliable. Causing both Grappled and Prone is less likely because a monster will likely have either STR or DEX save proficiency.
Is this sufficient to make Unarmed Strikes Grapples & Shoves viable compared to Weapon Masteries? Does this make Grapple builds too strong against bosses?
In the current environment I think you are certainly on the right path. Grappling options being included in weapon masteries feels like it dilutes any point to most grappling features.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Shoving is dead, there is no saving it. Shove was already extremely niche and it's only advantage was the high success rate from it being a check, but there are so many otherways to produced a more impactful forced movement from spells to warlock invocations to Telekinesis feat to Shield Master etc... etc....
Grappling is still valid since it prevents enemies from moving and allows you to move them, it's just really sad that you can't build for it anymore.
the first grapple rules, that made it attack based, and feats around grapple were probably designed to give unarmed strikes comparable value to weapons/mastery.
however its still kind of inferior because A, everyone has it, B its not damage +effect, its damage or effect. And lastly weapon mastery creates tactical options, the monk of UA 6 only has simple weapon options, and simple weapons are all designed to be inferior weapons for non martials.
even that said, they walked back those changes, and now grapples/shoves are extremely bad for monks, and even more inferior to masteries.
To fix it and keep the same concept, for monks, grapple/shove need to be riders, they then need access to martial weapons, so they are not inferior with every non UA mastery. Or they get back their MA dice to monk weapons. Or, they let UA have any one mastery per day.
Open Hand needs a rework, because its features are redundant now. My suggestion; (level 3) two types of MA dice, each gets its own mastery. one is more accurate, and one is more damage. (other Open Hand features also need a rework but thats a different topic)
Monk has many other issues, but one huge one is UA place, and monk's place in a weapon mastery world.
Good point. Shove is already a rider in the Topple and Push masteries. A Grapple mastery might be a good replacement for Flex (except for sword&board). What would Grapple look like as a Weapon Mastery? A STR save similar to Topple? An auto grapple if you exceed the AC by some amount (such as 5, 10, or the target's Proficiency Bonus)?
Grapple doesn't work as a weapon mastery because it requires an open hand so can't make attacks with your weapon while doing it. Grapple could become a BA for everyone which would be fun (if they returned it to an ability check so it actually has a good chance to succeed).
I think the implication is grapple as a possible unarmed mastery.
BA is kind of inferior to the current implementation for martials which is any unarmed attack, (attack , ba attack or reaction attack)
Grapple on a weapon : put it on polearms
historically a hook was on many polearms for literally grappling mounted opponents. could be limited to creatures one size larger than you, or mounted opponents