DMs who do not give short rests should be given 3 options:
1. Give short rests as the game intends. (optimal)
2. Give all short rest recharge abilities 3x as many uses per long rest. (sub-optimal)
3. Find a new group of players to DM. (not optimal)
I think I need to see what's going on before that judgement.
Your DM may be planning way too much per session or is losing track of how many sessions you've gone without.
Though not necessarily a bad thing, I may plan out a "session" and it generally turns out being 3 in length, and in that time 2 battles occur. Story wise, that's about an afternoon that would take place, and not even a full day really. A "full day" would be more like 5-6 sessions (2-3 hour sessions) real time and spread across a two or three months (adult - job and real responsibilities).
DMs who do not give short rests should be given 3 options:
1. Give short rests as the game intends. (optimal)
2. Give all short rest recharge abilities 3x as many uses per long rest. (sub-optimal)
3. Find a new group of players to DM. (not optimal)
And this pretty much perfectly explains why short rests are a gorram problem.
Apparently there's absolutely no possible earthly reason a team of PCs might not be able to sit on their duffs for an uninterrupted hour whenever they feel like it. Standing right outside the door to a thousands-strong skeletal army commanded by an ancient dracolich who's almost done with his intimidating pre-invasion undead pep talk? That's fiiiiine! Just tell the DM "okay, we take a short rest", and stop those skeletal dastards in their tracks for an entire hour, as if you'd cast Time Stop on the entire room. After all, if the DM decides y'all are being a bunch of lackwit numblenuts for sitting down to have a spa session five feet away from the Gates of Inevitable Doom and has the Army of Darkness march through said gate two minutes into your short rest because she bloody well said they were two minutes from marching through the Gate of Inevitable Doom? Then she's just a terrible DM who's an anti-player jerk, she's not playing the game As Intended, and she should quit! Hell, if the players really want to Save The Realms? They could just keep saying "we take a short rest" right outside that room and prevent the invasion forever by holding the entire land eternally locked in temporal stasis, never to grow or flourish again but also never to suffer the ravages of the Draghoul King's armies. After all, that's the way the game was Intended to work!
Why do I even bother? Y'all time-hating crunks got what you wanted - the warlock got nothing, and is right back to being a carbon copy of the 2014 print. They walked back everything. No updates for anybody, just more stupid pointless useless "Pact Magic" that either doesn't function at all, or allows at-will spellcasting of fifth-level spells without restraint.
As I showed early on the warlock actually get TOO much casting and really falls behind around level 8.
So what if we delayed the second slot until 4 and provided the third slot at 8.
This means pact of the tome would have 2 slots at level 1 with 1 that recovers on a short rest.
2 slots at level 2 with 1 that recovers on a minute and 1 that recovers on a short rest.
Level 3 would have 1 first, 1 2nd with the ability to recover the second on a minute and the second on a short rest. Level 4, 5, 6, 7 would be the same as now.
Level 8 would get to 3 slots with 2 recovered on a minute.
DMs who do not give short rests should be given 3 options:
1. Give short rests as the game intends. (optimal)
2. Give all short rest recharge abilities 3x as many uses per long rest. (sub-optimal)
3. Find a new group of players to DM. (not optimal)
And this pretty much perfectly explains why short rests are a gorram problem.
Apparently there's absolutely no possible earthly reason a team of PCs might not be able to sit on their duffs for an uninterrupted hour whenever they feel like it. Standing right outside the door to a thousands-strong skeletal army commanded by an ancient dracolich who's almost done with his intimidating pre-invasion undead pep talk? That's fiiiiine! Just tell the DM "okay, we take a short rest", and stop those skeletal dastards in their tracks for an entire hour, as if you'd cast Time Stop on the entire room. After all, if the DM decides y'all are being a bunch of lackwit numblenuts for sitting down to have a spa session five feet away from the Gates of Inevitable Doom and has the Army of Darkness march through said gate two minutes into your short rest because she bloody well said they were two minutes from marching through the Gate of Inevitable Doom? Then she's just a terrible DM who's an anti-player jerk, she's not playing the game As Intended, and she should quit! Hell, if the players really want to Save The Realms? They could just keep saying "we take a short rest" right outside that room and prevent the invasion forever by holding the entire land eternally locked in temporal stasis, never to grow or flourish again but also never to suffer the ravages of the Draghoul King's armies. After all, that's the way the game was Intended to work!
Why do I even bother? Y'all time-hating crunks got what you wanted - the warlock got nothing, and is right back to being a carbon copy of the 2014 print. They walked back everything. No updates for anybody, just more stupid pointless useless "Pact Magic" that either doesn't function at all, or allows at-will spellcasting of fifth-level spells without restraint.
****.
Why did you wait till you were at the door to take a short rest?
Even Frodo and Sam took a lunch break while escorting the ring to mount doom, all while armies marched.
I seriously question, and you have never answered, do your players never spend hit dice? They go into a fight battered beaten and mostly dead? Who is stopping the army when they die in the first round of combat instead of taking a short rest before getting to the doors so that they would be prepared?
This warlock doesn't need 2 rests to work. It needs 1. If players are spending hit dice to recover health, than the warlock is fine recovering spell slots.
Even better question, if your games are so fast paced why are you not using the shorter heroic rest rules with the 5 minute short rests and 1 hour long rests. Sounds like 1 hour is a long time in your games and 10 minutes seems fine for rituals why not make it 10 for short rests?
i know my games can be slower pace and have 1 or 2 encounters a day so I lengthen short and long rests.
Just tell the DM "okay, we take a short rest", and stop those skeletal dastards in their tracks for an entire hour, as if you'd cast Time Stop on the entire room.
Wait, we can filibuster the Army of Darkness by sitting around outside the Gates of Inevitable Doom and doing our nails? I brought some new polish samples with me. Those guys are going NOWHERE!
But, yeah, many of the core mechanics and class mechanics sometimes didn't connect all that grandly. A bit like laying a puzzle, and realising that there's likely pieces from three different sets in here and while you can mallet those bits into place, the problems will still be there. I feel you're definitely right about how tying central class mechanics like spellcasting to very unreliable short rest opportunities wasn't the most inspired game design decision.
But, hey, I'm no stranger to putting a kettle of homebrew on my stove. If the official flavour stays janky, I can always add my own secret blend to it in my home games :)
DMs who do not give short rests should be given 3 options:
1. Give short rests as the game intends. (optimal)
2. Give all short rest recharge abilities 3x as many uses per long rest. (sub-optimal)
3. Find a new group of players to DM. (not optimal)
And this pretty much perfectly explains why short rests are a gorram problem.
Apparently there's absolutely no possible earthly reason a team of PCs might not be able to sit on their duffs for an uninterrupted hour whenever they feel like it. Standing right outside the door to a thousands-strong skeletal army commanded by an ancient dracolich who's almost done with his intimidating pre-invasion undead pep talk? That's fiiiiine! Just tell the DM "okay, we take a short rest", and stop those skeletal dastards in their tracks for an entire hour, as if you'd cast Time Stop on the entire room. After all, if the DM decides y'all are being a bunch of lackwit numblenuts for sitting down to have a spa session five feet away from the Gates of Inevitable Doom and has the Army of Darkness march through said gate two minutes into your short rest because she bloody well said they were two minutes from marching through the Gate of Inevitable Doom? Then she's just a terrible DM who's an anti-player jerk, she's not playing the game As Intended, and she should quit! Hell, if the players really want to Save The Realms? They could just keep saying "we take a short rest" right outside that room and prevent the invasion forever by holding the entire land eternally locked in temporal stasis, never to grow or flourish again but also never to suffer the ravages of the Draghoul King's armies. After all, that's the way the game was Intended to work!
Why do I even bother? Y'all time-hating crunks got what you wanted - the warlock got nothing, and is right back to being a carbon copy of the 2014 print. They walked back everything. No updates for anybody, just more stupid pointless useless "Pact Magic" that either doesn't function at all, or allows at-will spellcasting of fifth-level spells without restraint.
****.
Your incessant hyperboles prove nothing except that you have little actual logic behind your stagnant claims.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Why did you wait till you were at the door to take a short rest?
Dunno. Ask the people who feel like they can take any short rest they like whenever they want, without exception, and if they're interrupted it's the DM being an anti-player jerk.
I seriously question, and you have never answered, do your players never spend hit dice? They go into a fight battered beaten and mostly dead? Who is stopping the army when they die in the first round of combat instead of taking a short rest before getting to the doors so that they would be prepared?
We don't generally use Hit Dice recovery, no. Either we push on and endure, using rapid recovery when pressed (our table houserules that anyone with Medicine proficiency gains the Healer feat for free because someone with medical training ******* knows how to use a first aid kit; we end up using a lot of healing supplies), or we admit defeat, retreat, LR, and try to fix the problem later. We will if we're absolutely forced to, but whenever we take a short rest to recover the situation we're fighting to resolve gets worse and the minor HP boost we gain from spending Hit Dice is not sufficient to offset the increased difficulty we let ourselves in for.
The general idea is either you're not under time pressure at that moment, at which point there's no need for a short rest and you can just endure until it's time for a long, or you're under time pressure at the moment and thus have no time for a short rest without severely compromising or even outright failing whatever objective you're pursuing is. The moments where it "makes sense" to take a short rest are almost strictly limited to Classic Dungeon Crawls where time is wobbly at best and you're expected to get through 12+ encounters a "day". In almost any other situation it doesn't make sense to sit down and powder your gonads for an hour; either the bad guys aren't currently up to anything and you can powder your gonads for eight hours instead, or the bad guys are Up To Shit and people will die for every minute you spend powdering your gonads.
No in between. And no, there is no in between. Those two things cannot be simultaneously true. Either the bad guys are Up To Shit or they're not; there is no "sorta" up to shit, or "up to shit but only, like...maybe half-assed up to shit, y'know?"
There. Is. No. In. Between.
This warlock doesn't need 2 rests to work. It needs 1. If players are spending hit dice to recover health, than the warlock is fine recovering spell slots.
No one who enjoys/clings to the current short rest-centric Pact Magic model is content with 'one' short rest. They're playing the class specifically and solely to abuse short rests by forcing as many into an adventuring day as possible, to break the game's resource economy wide open and allow them to cast fifty-plus fifth-level spells per day. They're clinging to Pact Magic because they want at-will fifth-level slots, and convincing their table to just let short rests occur naturally for zero time investment whenever the party feels like it is how they get at-will fifth-level slots.
Even better question, if your games are so fast paced why are you not using the shorter heroic rest rules with the 5 minute short rests and 1 hour long rests. Sounds like 1 hour is a long time in your games and 10 minutes seems fine for rituals why not make it 10 for short rests?
It's not about five minutes or ten minutes or an hour. It's the idea that sitting down to powder your gonads and actively do nothing to stop the enemy from enacting their Evil Plot for whatever arbitrary length of time whilst the enemy is actively in the process of enacting their Evil Plot is ******* stupid. It's a giant signal saying "we don't give a shit about this problem, we don't consider it a problem, and we don't care if the enemy succeeds at what they're doing; we'd rather powder our gonads." If there's an Evil Plot actively afoot and you stop to powder your gonads, that Evil Plot is going to progress and you're going to suffer the consequences of your actions.
Which seems to be an extremely sore point amongst people who think they're magically entitled to Time Stop-level short rests at will no matter what is actually happening in the world, "because that's the intended game design!!1!" Buddy, tell the ancient dracolich who's waited a thousand years for the confluence of the heavens that it's simply not allowed to invade the Realms with its Army of Darkness at the first light of the Blood Moon because it's intended game design that players be able to freeze time like a goddamned Joestar whenever they wish for as long as they wish. Y'all ****ed around and picked flowers, romanced bar stools, argued about crafting, picked bar fights in the town library, and so on when y'all were told that the ancient dracolich was invading the Realms at the first light of the Blood Moon. You knew the timeframe, and you acted like this was a Bethesda game where the Main Quest would sit tight and wait for you to "get around to it." You did this to yourselves and have no one but yourselves to blame when the DM does exactly what they warned you multiple times they'd do and overruns the land with an Army of Darkness.
Apparently there's absolutely no possible earthly reason a team of PCs might not be able to sit on their duffs for an uninterrupted hour whenever they feel like it. Standing right outside the door to a thousands-strong skeletal army commanded by an ancient dracolich who's almost done with his intimidating pre-invasion undead pep talk? That's fiiiiine! Just tell the DM "okay, we take a short rest", and stop those skeletal dastards in their tracks for an entire hour, as if you'd cast Time Stop on the entire room. After all, if the DM decides y'all are being a bunch of lackwit numblenuts for sitting down to have a spa session five feet away from the Gates of Inevitable Doom and has the Army of Darkness march through said gate two minutes into your short rest because she bloody well said they were two minutes from marching through the Gate of Inevitable Doom? Then she's just a terrible DM who's an anti-player jerk, she's not playing the game As Intended, and she should quit! Hell, if the players really want to Save The Realms? They could just keep saying "we take a short rest" right outside that room and prevent the invasion forever by holding the entire land eternally locked in temporal stasis, never to grow or flourish again but also never to suffer the ravages of the Draghoul King's armies. After all, that's the way the game was Intended to work!
This doesn't really address the questions we raised based on your earlier post and claims. Is every session, starting at Level 1, nothing but time-sensitive, world-ending scenarios? Are your games literally nothing but the equivalent of being two steps away from the Gates of Inevitable Doom?
What prevents the party from resting at a slightly removed location? Who would actually try and take a short rest a few feet away from the gate? Is every square mile between Module City and the Gates filled with wandering undead that are deadly-level encounters?
And once the party hits Tier 2, spells like rope trick and tiny hut make taking a short rest MUCH easier and more feasible.
Nobody is arguing that short rests aren't sometimes difficult, or stupid, or deadly (or all three) to take, depending on situational specifics. A number of us are arguing that the hyperbolic claims you're making (taking either 1 rest or 12, no other options) aren't reflective of what the RAW expect from a gaming day nor do they reflect what most games are like. You keep presenting short rests as this broken mechanic because once Session 1 starts, it's breathless racing around the globe to stave off the Eruption of Hell on Earth every second of every day until the campaign is done.
Which...could be true? But as I keep saying: that sounds exhausting, from a player's (and DM's) perspective, and I simply don't accept it's what most people experience at the gaming table.
This doesn't really address the questions we raised based on your earlier post and claims. Is every session, starting at Level 1, nothing but time-sensitive, world-ending scenarios? Are your games literally nothing but the equivalent of being two steps away from the Gates of Inevitable Doom?
What prevents the party from resting at a slightly removed location? Who would actually try and take a short rest a few feet away from the gate? Is every square mile between Module City and the Gates filled with wandering undead that are deadly-level encounters?
And once the party hits Tier 2, spells like rope trick and tiny hut make taking a short rest MUCH easier and more feasible.
Nobody is arguing that short rests aren't sometimes difficult, or stupid, or deadly (or all three) to take, depending on situational specifics. A number of us are arguing that the hyperbolic claims you're making (taking either 1 rest or 12, no other options) aren't reflective of what the RAW expect from a gaming day nor do they reflect what most games are like. You keep presenting short rests as this broken mechanic because once Session 1 starts, it's breathless racing around the globe to stave off the Eruption of Hell on Earth every second of every day until the campaign is done.
Which...could be true? But as I keep saying: that sounds exhausting, from a player's (and DM's) perspective, and I simply don't accept it's what most people experience at the gaming table.
Ironically, just tried to address this with Aquil.
I subscribe to the idea that short rests are one of two things at any given point in time: 1.) Unnecessary, because there's no time pressure at that moment and thus no need to bother with a "short" rest when you could long instead, if you're in a situation where you can't endure and keep going. 2.) Actively a bad idea, because there is time pressure at that moment and stopping to powder your gonads is handing your enemy free, uninterrupted, uncontested time to progress their Evil Plot and you should not be surprised when they use it.
Short rests exist for the sole, singular use case of "we need to get as much done within this day as we possibly can for whichever weird, alien reason, but we have absolutely no time pressure whatsoever within the day working against us so we can use Hit Dice to artificially extend our endurance before we call it quits for the night." I.e. there's time pressure on the day as a whole but not any time pressure within that specific day, which is a situation that has arisen precisely never in my five-odd years of playing D&D. Again - either there's no overriding time pressure and thus no reason to sit down for an hour and powder our gonads, or there is time pressure and we need to be doing everything in our power to make effective use of time. Which precludes short rests because short rests are quite possibly the least effective use of time in all of D&D 5e.
In other words, person who doesn't play at a typical table, using house rules to avoid using hit dice, complains because they don't house rule Warlocks the same way. If you can "rapid recovery" for hit points then you can "rapid recovery" for spell slots.
No wonder there's no communication here. You're not even speaking the same language.
As for the original topic.
Patron's Favor: "Warlocks gain one spell slot when initiative is rolled. This cannot take them above their starting spell slots."
Why did you wait till you were at the door to take a short rest?
Dunno. Ask the people who feel like they can take any short rest they like whenever they want, without exception, and if they're interrupted it's the DM being an anti-player jerk.
I seriously question, and you have never answered, do your players never spend hit dice? They go into a fight battered beaten and mostly dead? Who is stopping the army when they die in the first round of combat instead of taking a short rest before getting to the doors so that they would be prepared?
We don't generally use Hit Dice recovery, no. Either we push on and endure, using rapid recovery when pressed (our table houserules that anyone with Medicine proficiency gains the Healer feat for free because someone with medical training ******* knows how to use a first aid kit; we end up using a lot of healing supplies), or we admit defeat, retreat, LR, and try to fix the problem later. We will if we're absolutely forced to, but whenever we take a short rest to recover the situation we're fighting to resolve gets worse and the minor HP boost we gain from spending Hit Dice is not sufficient to offset the increased difficulty we let ourselves in for.
The general idea is either you're not under time pressure at that moment, at which point there's no need for a short rest and you can just endure until it's time for a long, or you're under time pressure at the moment and thus have no time for a short rest without severely compromising or even outright failing whatever objective you're pursuing is. The moments where it "makes sense" to take a short rest are almost strictly limited to Classic Dungeon Crawls where time is wobbly at best and you're expected to get through 12+ encounters a "day". In almost any other situation it doesn't make sense to sit down and powder your gonads for an hour; either the bad guys aren't currently up to anything and you can powder your gonads for eight hours instead, or the bad guys are Up To Shit and people will die for every minute you spend powdering your gonads.
No in between. And no, there is no in between. Those two things cannot be simultaneously true. Either the bad guys are Up To Shit or they're not; there is no "sorta" up to shit, or "up to shit but only, like...maybe half-assed up to shit, y'know?"
There. Is. No. In. Between.
This warlock doesn't need 2 rests to work. It needs 1. If players are spending hit dice to recover health, than the warlock is fine recovering spell slots.
No one who enjoys/clings to the current short rest-centric Pact Magic model is content with 'one' short rest. They're playing the class specifically and solely to abuse short rests by forcing as many into an adventuring day as possible, to break the game's resource economy wide open and allow them to cast fifty-plus fifth-level spells per day. They're clinging to Pact Magic because they want at-will fifth-level slots, and convincing their table to just let short rests occur naturally for zero time investment whenever the party feels like it is how they get at-will fifth-level slots.
Even better question, if your games are so fast paced why are you not using the shorter heroic rest rules with the 5 minute short rests and 1 hour long rests. Sounds like 1 hour is a long time in your games and 10 minutes seems fine for rituals why not make it 10 for short rests?
It's not about five minutes or ten minutes or an hour. It's the idea that sitting down to powder your gonads and actively do nothing to stop the enemy from enacting their Evil Plot for whatever arbitrary length of time whilst the enemy is actively in the process of enacting their Evil Plot is ******* stupid. It's a giant signal saying "we don't give a shit about this problem, we don't consider it a problem, and we don't care if the enemy succeeds at what they're doing; we'd rather powder our gonads." If there's an Evil Plot actively afoot and you stop to powder your gonads, that Evil Plot is going to progress and you're going to suffer the consequences of your actions.
Which seems to be an extremely sore point amongst people who think they're magically entitled to Time Stop-level short rests at will no matter what is actually happening in the world, "because that's the intended game design!!1!" Buddy, tell the ancient dracolich who's waited a thousand years for the confluence of the heavens that it's simply not allowed to invade the Realms with its Army of Darkness at the first light of the Blood Moon because it's intended game design that players be able to freeze time like a goddamned Joestar whenever they wish for as long as they wish. Y'all ****ed around and picked flowers, romanced bar stools, argued about crafting, picked bar fights in the town library, and so on when y'all were told that the ancient dracolich was invading the Realms at the first light of the Blood Moon. You knew the timeframe, and you acted like this was a Bethesda game where the Main Quest would sit tight and wait for you to "get around to it." You did this to yourselves and have no one but yourselves to blame when the DM does exactly what they warned you multiple times they'd do and overruns the land with an Army of Darkness.
So taking an hour rest says “we don't give a shit about this problem, we don't consider it a problem, and we don't care if the enemy succeeds at what they're doing; we'd rather powder our gonads.” Then you shouldn’t be taking an 8 hour long-rest either. 8 hours is way longer than 1 hour.
3. Find a new group of players to DM. (not optimal)
You know, Dming is already hard enough as is. This gatekeeping bs really doesn't help anyone. There's already a shortage of Dms in this community.
I also don't know why people think that it's just the dm creating no short rest sessions. Some players just have an irrational hatred of short rests. Sometimes things go to shit in the session and the players have to take a long rest sooner than intended. (My players once accidentally triggered 3 encounters at once and were forced to take a long rest instead of the short one I intended.) Some groups just enjoy having fewer encounters.
Rather than forcing groups to conform to an arbitrary 'adventuring day,' maybe d&d should grant more flexibility? I don't feel like that should be a controversial take.
A number of us are arguing that the hyperbolic claims you're making (taking either 1 rest or 12, no other options) aren't reflective of what the RAW expect from a gaming day nor do they reflect what most games are like.
You forget that Yurei lives in Yurei-land, where taking five minutes to most of your health means the universe exploded.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Why did you wait till you were at the door to take a short rest?
Dunno. Ask the people who feel like they can take any short rest they like whenever they want, without exception, and if they're interrupted it's the DM being an anti-player jerk.
I seriously question, and you have never answered, do your players never spend hit dice? They go into a fight battered beaten and mostly dead? Who is stopping the army when they die in the first round of combat instead of taking a short rest before getting to the doors so that they would be prepared?
We don't generally use Hit Dice recovery, no. Either we push on and endure, using rapid recovery when pressed (our table houserules that anyone with Medicine proficiency gains the Healer feat for free because someone with medical training ******* knows how to use a first aid kit; we end up using a lot of healing supplies), or we admit defeat, retreat, LR, and try to fix the problem later. We will if we're absolutely forced to, but whenever we take a short rest to recover the situation we're fighting to resolve gets worse and the minor HP boost we gain from spending Hit Dice is not sufficient to offset the increased difficulty we let ourselves in for.
The general idea is either you're not under time pressure at that moment, at which point there's no need for a short rest and you can just endure until it's time for a long, or you're under time pressure at the moment and thus have no time for a short rest without severely compromising or even outright failing whatever objective you're pursuing is. The moments where it "makes sense" to take a short rest are almost strictly limited to Classic Dungeon Crawls where time is wobbly at best and you're expected to get through 12+ encounters a "day". In almost any other situation it doesn't make sense to sit down and powder your gonads for an hour; either the bad guys aren't currently up to anything and you can powder your gonads for eight hours instead, or the bad guys are Up To Shit and people will die for every minute you spend powdering your gonads.
No in between. And no, there is no in between. Those two things cannot be simultaneously true. Either the bad guys are Up To Shit or they're not; there is no "sorta" up to shit, or "up to shit but only, like...maybe half-assed up to shit, y'know?"
There. Is. No. In. Between.
This warlock doesn't need 2 rests to work. It needs 1. If players are spending hit dice to recover health, than the warlock is fine recovering spell slots.
No one who enjoys/clings to the current short rest-centric Pact Magic model is content with 'one' short rest. They're playing the class specifically and solely to abuse short rests by forcing as many into an adventuring day as possible, to break the game's resource economy wide open and allow them to cast fifty-plus fifth-level spells per day. They're clinging to Pact Magic because they want at-will fifth-level slots, and convincing their table to just let short rests occur naturally for zero time investment whenever the party feels like it is how they get at-will fifth-level slots.
Even better question, if your games are so fast paced why are you not using the shorter heroic rest rules with the 5 minute short rests and 1 hour long rests. Sounds like 1 hour is a long time in your games and 10 minutes seems fine for rituals why not make it 10 for short rests?
It's not about five minutes or ten minutes or an hour. It's the idea that sitting down to powder your gonads and actively do nothing to stop the enemy from enacting their Evil Plot for whatever arbitrary length of time whilst the enemy is actively in the process of enacting their Evil Plot is ******* stupid. It's a giant signal saying "we don't give a shit about this problem, we don't consider it a problem, and we don't care if the enemy succeeds at what they're doing; we'd rather powder our gonads." If there's an Evil Plot actively afoot and you stop to powder your gonads, that Evil Plot is going to progress and you're going to suffer the consequences of your actions.
Which seems to be an extremely sore point amongst people who think they're magically entitled to Time Stop-level short rests at will no matter what is actually happening in the world, "because that's the intended game design!!1!" Buddy, tell the ancient dracolich who's waited a thousand years for the confluence of the heavens that it's simply not allowed to invade the Realms with its Army of Darkness at the first light of the Blood Moon because it's intended game design that players be able to freeze time like a goddamned Joestar whenever they wish for as long as they wish. Y'all ****ed around and picked flowers, romanced bar stools, argued about crafting, picked bar fights in the town library, and so on when y'all were told that the ancient dracolich was invading the Realms at the first light of the Blood Moon. You knew the timeframe, and you acted like this was a Bethesda game where the Main Quest would sit tight and wait for you to "get around to it." You did this to yourselves and have no one but yourselves to blame when the DM does exactly what they warned you multiple times they'd do and overruns the land with an Army of Darkness.
This explains a lot. You are very contradictory. According to you pulling back and resting one hour to recover health and resources is too much and gives the enemy too much time but doing so for 20 hours is just fine. Ticking clocks arent just "do this in 5 minutes or everyone dies". They also include "reinforcements and supploes will arrive tomorrow, once they do it will be impossible to thwart the enemies." You know what you dont have time for at that point? A long rest. You know what you cant afford? To go in low health and unprepared. You know what you can afford? A short rest.
Another thing, I don't care if the warlock players WANT 2, 3 or 7 short rests. It is mathematically full caster equivalent with 1. Except at levels 8,9 and 10. 3 entire levels of the game. Not a lot of classes can say only 3 levels suck.
"The army of Darkness is coming, we need to be ready for them lets send the adventuring party that only progresses for an hour a day and then jacks off for 23 hours for a long rest because taking a lunch break is too long."
As with most tables, we all very rarely play 5e as written or intended. We all play our own homebrew version of 5e. Yurie your homebrew version is extremely loosely based. I have played with around 6 different GM'S, a very small sample size, and none have come close to either end of your thing.
In other words, person who doesn't play at a typical table, using house rules to avoid using hit dice, complains because they don't house rule Warlocks the same way. If you can "rapid recovery" for hit points then you can "rapid recovery" for spell slots.
See, what we actually did was say "the Medicine skill is almost completely useless in 5e, and the Healer feat provides rules for combat medic/mundane healing that are actually really neat but basically never come up because taking Healer as a feat is actively stupid. So...what if we just make mundane healing a thing people can do if they're trained in Medicine?" As it turns out, that enables a surprising amount of mundane healing, and makes healing/first aid supplies actually useful. We don't need a constant drip feed of hundreds of healing potions because our emergency slap patches come in the form of Healer's Kit uses, and restocking the healer's kit from a local apothecary works much better than the random podunk village at the edge of the frontier just having a dozen healing potions to sell whenever we need them.
We didn't houserule away short rests; we houseruled first aid back into the game properly. I actually recommend the rule for anyone who has issues with Healing Potion Spam or who wants nonmagical characters to have a better way to contribute to group healing/CLS. It's worked very well for us and made a formerly dead skill proficiency prized and valuable.
So taking an hour rest says “we don't give a shit about this problem, we don't consider it a problem, and we don't care if the enemy succeeds at what they're doing; we'd rather powder our gonads.” Then you shouldn’t be taking an 8 hour long-rest either. 8 hours is way longer than 1 hour.
You missed the part where I said "we admit defeat, retreat, long rest, and try to fix the problem later." If that's not viable, then yes - at my table, the players would push without long resting and do their best to stop the Evil Plot while at the edge of their HP and resources. That's what heroes do. Sometimes heroes fail, the Evil Plot resolves successfully, and we have to pursue damage control and a different means of progressing in our objectives, but that's how adventuring life works.
Ironically, just tried to address this with Aquil.
I subscribe to the idea that short rests are one of two things at any given point in time: 1.) Unnecessary, because there's no time pressure at that moment and thus no need to bother with a "short" rest when you could long instead, if you're in a situation where you can't endure and keep going. 2.) Actively a bad idea, because there is time pressure at that moment and stopping to powder your gonads is handing your enemy free, uninterrupted, uncontested time to progress their Evil Plot and you should not be surprised when they use it.
Short rests exist for the sole, singular use case of "we need to get as much done within this day as we possibly can for whichever weird, alien reason, but we have absolutely no time pressure whatsoever within the day working against us so we can use Hit Dice to artificially extend our endurance before we call it quits for the night." I.e. there's time pressure on the day as a whole but not any time pressure within that specific day, which is a situation that has arisen precisely never in my five-odd years of playing D&D. Again - either there's no overriding time pressure and thus no reason to sit down for an hour and powder our gonads, or there is time pressure and we need to be doing everything in our power to make effective use of time. Which precludes short rests because short rests are quite possibly the least effective use of time in all of D&D 5e.
I think you posted seconds before I did!
I just don't agree with your extreme takes on short rests, for a few reasons.
Not every gaming day of every campaign is a race against time. Some game days - some entire campaigns - are exploratory in nature, not tied to saving the earth from the 200 Foot Tall Colossus of Fire. What if you've been hired to map out a territory without a hard deadline? Taking a short rest makes eminent sense then, because you simply have no idea what might be encountered later that day. It benefits the fighter, it benefits the warlock, and even other classes. It's not about abuse; it's about wisely recollecting resources after a fight with some grippli when the next encounter might be with a T-rex. Your argument that short rests are only available when you don't need them does not at all mesh with my experiences of playing 5E since 2017.
Also, not every foe or BBG of a campaign is going to be a fiend or undead who never rests or recuperates or the like. Sometimes the BBEG is just as mortal (if far more powerful) than the party, and as someone wrote in a different thread, even the BBEG has to sleep and poop.
You rightly point out that when dungeoncrawling or some very similar activity in very hostile territory, taking a short rest can be very, very tricky (or impossible or deadly). Yes. Everyone's acknowledged this truth (though, again, once the characters hit Tier 2 and above, there are a LOT of magical helps that can be used to obtain a short rest assuming the world won't end in an hour). But there are many, many encounter economies and scenarios that fall between "never a need for a short rest" and "taking a short rest will be our certain doom." Everything you describe about your campaigns (which as I've said before, sound pretty damn cool in terms of tone and situations) seems to be far more demanding and exhausting that what seems to be the norm, if posts here are any indication.
Finally, please stop saying that anyone who likes the 2014 PHB warlock only does so to abuse short rests. This is actively offensive to me; I f**king hate that kind of approach to the rules via finding "loopholes" or unintended gamebreaking dealios - and I'm someone who really loves the 2014 warlock. I've never wanted nor tried to abuse the use of short rests - I really think the most I've ever take in a single gaming day was three (but more likely two). I've certainly never taken 6, or 10, or 12 short rests, nor would I try to abuse the rules that way.
ETA: the house rule about the Healer's feat is a neat one. Might consider incorporating that into my game.
The more you do your patron's bidding , the more likely your patron will reward you.
Technically, this isn't accurate. While there's no explicit in-game explanation for the growth of the warlock's powers, the game assumes whatever agreement or contract was made between the warlock and their patron was completed before gameplay begins. This has been discussed in various threads in the Warlock forum (folks [like me] wondering if a warlock can lose their powers - consensus is no, they can't, because they've been granted in perpetuity in exchange for whatever the warlock's already done).
Now, the DM and/or player can certainly choose to make the contract an open/in-progress one, in which your statement makes sense. But per the game designers, the rules were written on the assumption that the character does not owe their patron anymore actions.
Ok, fine, but the point is, it's a cheap way to get power and with explicit terms and conditions.
Plus, to be frank, the pact magic and spammables are what differentiate the warlock from other casters.
They don't have levels and they shouldn't be relying on them.
Otherwise we have 5 classes of casters and every one of them has the same spell slots, same progression, and generally all behave the same way with very minor nitpicky ability differences.
Edit: also a lot of the reason warlocks feel so limited is because they don't get enough of anything. The invocations are generally weak and don't scale, the magic slots aren't enough to compensate, and the pacts are just laughable for how stingy they are. I mean why bother with chain when find familiar is there for everyone and a ritual spell? FFS. And tome is for one spell slot. It feels like you're trading your soul for a wizard's damned post-it note.
To be perfectly fair, Warlocks (generally speaking) are Warlocks because they took the easy way out by calling up an otherworldly kingpin to get some perks rather than studying magic and learning to master it on their own terms for years. And most patrons aren't interested in making their Warlocks more powerful than themselves. So from a work ethic point of view, Warlocks getting the short end of the stick compared to Wizards makes some sense.
That is one type of warlock I guess. I generally see them as focused arcanists who realized the magics cast by normal people did not go far enough so they researched deeper into knowledge mortals were not meant to know.
This explains a lot. You are very contradictory. According to you pulling back and resting one hour to recover health and resources is too much and gives the enemy too much time but doing so for 20 hours is just fine.
Pulling back to powder your gonads for an hour is "okay, this is now way harder to succeed at, hope you guys make those five extra hit points and Derrick's one whole spell slot count."
Pulling back for twenty hours is "okay, you guys failed to stop the Evil Plot entirely, and now you're going to have to deal with the consequences of your failure."
Never said pulling back to LR was "fine". I said it was an admission of defeat, and that we'd have to cope with the fallout of that failure.
Ticking clocks arent just "do this in 5 minutes or everyone dies". They also include "reinforcements and supploes will arrive tomorrow, once they do it will be impossible to thwart the enemies." You know what you dont have time for at that point? A long rest. You know what you cant afford? To go in low health and unprepared. You know what you can afford? A short rest.
A situation that arises in almost no games. I could craft a purpose-built scenario to "encourage" short rests too. Doesn't make them a good game mechanic.
Another thing, I don't care if the warlock players WANT 2, 3 or 7 short rests. It is mathematically full caster equivalent with 1. Except at levels 8,9 and 10. 3 entire levels of the game. Not a lot of classes can say only 3 levels suck.
You're assuming the warlocxk is casting spells perfectly, emptying their tank flawlessly and restocking at the exact optimal time to do so in service of utterly maximizing spell count per day by pre-emptively knowing when they're allowed to cast and when they're not. No warlock does this. Warlocks have so little leveled casting that they are forced to conserve resources against future need, which results in a sharp decrease in use and thus a sharp decrease in spells per day.
White room math never tells the whole story.
"The army of Darkness is coming, we need to be ready for them lets send the adventuring party that only progresses for an hour a day and then jacks off for 23 hours for a long rest because taking a lunch break is too long. "
Is it my fault a majority of D&D players are faffing ****abouts who wouldn't know a ticking clock if you broke it over their heads in a bar fight and are outrageously wasteful with their resources? At my table, players who make egregiously poor use of time will discover that it doesn't go well for them. No, this does not mean "no downtime" or "constant rush"; it means when you know something needs to be done and you spend five sessions seducing the town's furniture instead of doing the thing what needs done because "lawl that's so funny and chaotic let's tell CritCrab about it!", you have no complaints coming when the DM says "well, y'all spent a week seducing furniture instead of forestalling the Army of Darkness, so now the Army of Darkness is here and they broke all the furniture. What do you do now?"
The more you do your patron's bidding , the more likely your patron will reward you.
Technically, this isn't accurate. While there's no explicit in-game explanation for the growth of the warlock's powers, the game assumes whatever agreement or contract was made between the warlock and their patron was completed before gameplay begins. This has been discussed in various threads in the Warlock forum (folks [like me] wondering if a warlock can lose their powers - consensus is no, they can't, because they've been granted in perpetuity in exchange for whatever the warlock's already done).
Now, the DM and/or player can certainly choose to make the contract an open/in-progress one, in which your statement makes sense. But per the game designers, the rules were written on the assumption that the character does not owe their patron anymore actions.
Ok, fine, but the point is, it's a cheap way to get power and with explicit terms and conditions.
Plus, to be frank, the pact magic and spammables are what differentiate the warlock from other casters.
They don't have levels and they shouldn't be relying on them.
Otherwise we have 5 classes of casters and every one of them has the same spell slots, same progression, and generally all behave the same way with very minor nitpicky ability differences.
Edit: also a lot of the reason warlocks feel so limited is because they don't get enough of anything. The invocations are generally weak and don't scale, the magic slots aren't enough to compensate, and the pacts are just laughable for how stingy they are. I mean why bother with chain when find familiar is there for everyone and a ritual spell? FFS. And tome is for one spell slot. It feels like you're trading your soul for a wizard's damned post-it note.
To be perfectly fair, Warlocks (generally speaking) are Warlocks because they took the easy way out by calling up an otherworldly kingpin to get some perks rather than studying magic and learning to master it on their own terms for years. And most patrons aren't interested in making their Warlocks more powerful than themselves. So from a work ethic point of view, Warlocks getting the short end of the stick compared to Wizards makes some sense.
That is one type of warlock I guess. I generally see them as focused arcanists who realized the magics cast by normal people did not go far enough so they researched deeper into knowledge mortals were not meant to know.
On the other hand, wizards are also focused arcanists who can also delve into magics most mortals can only dream of wielding.
I feel this flavour would shine more if more of the eldritch invocations actually did something potent and weird that you couldn't find in any other class, instead of a number of them simply being at-will spells.
I definitely wish they had gone into stranger invocations. It requires a lot more work though on their end. Its this spell is just easy.
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DMs who do not give short rests should be given 3 options:
1. Give short rests as the game intends. (optimal)
2. Give all short rest recharge abilities 3x as many uses per long rest. (sub-optimal)
3. Find a new group of players to DM. (not optimal)
I think I need to see what's going on before that judgement.
Your DM may be planning way too much per session or is losing track of how many sessions you've gone without.
Though not necessarily a bad thing, I may plan out a "session" and it generally turns out being 3 in length, and in that time 2 battles occur. Story wise, that's about an afternoon that would take place, and not even a full day really. A "full day" would be more like 5-6 sessions (2-3 hour sessions) real time and spread across a two or three months (adult - job and real responsibilities).
And this pretty much perfectly explains why short rests are a gorram problem.
Apparently there's absolutely no possible earthly reason a team of PCs might not be able to sit on their duffs for an uninterrupted hour whenever they feel like it. Standing right outside the door to a thousands-strong skeletal army commanded by an ancient dracolich who's almost done with his intimidating pre-invasion undead pep talk? That's fiiiiine! Just tell the DM "okay, we take a short rest", and stop those skeletal dastards in their tracks for an entire hour, as if you'd cast Time Stop on the entire room. After all, if the DM decides y'all are being a bunch of lackwit numblenuts for sitting down to have a spa session five feet away from the Gates of Inevitable Doom and has the Army of Darkness march through said gate two minutes into your short rest because she bloody well said they were two minutes from marching through the Gate of Inevitable Doom? Then she's just a terrible DM who's an anti-player jerk, she's not playing the game As Intended, and she should quit! Hell, if the players really want to Save The Realms? They could just keep saying "we take a short rest" right outside that room and prevent the invasion forever by holding the entire land eternally locked in temporal stasis, never to grow or flourish again but also never to suffer the ravages of the Draghoul King's armies. After all, that's the way the game was Intended to work!
Why do I even bother? Y'all time-hating crunks got what you wanted - the warlock got nothing, and is right back to being a carbon copy of the 2014 print. They walked back everything. No updates for anybody, just more stupid pointless useless "Pact Magic" that either doesn't function at all, or allows at-will spellcasting of fifth-level spells without restraint.
****.
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Curious what everyone's opinion is of this...
As I showed early on the warlock actually get TOO much casting and really falls behind around level 8.
So what if we delayed the second slot until 4 and provided the third slot at 8.
This means pact of the tome would have 2 slots at level 1 with 1 that recovers on a short rest.
2 slots at level 2 with 1 that recovers on a minute and 1 that recovers on a short rest.
Level 3 would have 1 first, 1 2nd with the ability to recover the second on a minute and the second on a short rest.
Level 4, 5, 6, 7 would be the same as now.
Level 8 would get to 3 slots with 2 recovered on a minute.
Why did you wait till you were at the door to take a short rest?
Even Frodo and Sam took a lunch break while escorting the ring to mount doom, all while armies marched.
I seriously question, and you have never answered, do your players never spend hit dice? They go into a fight battered beaten and mostly dead? Who is stopping the army when they die in the first round of combat instead of taking a short rest before getting to the doors so that they would be prepared?
This warlock doesn't need 2 rests to work. It needs 1. If players are spending hit dice to recover health, than the warlock is fine recovering spell slots.
Even better question, if your games are so fast paced why are you not using the shorter heroic rest rules with the 5 minute short rests and 1 hour long rests. Sounds like 1 hour is a long time in your games and 10 minutes seems fine for rituals why not make it 10 for short rests?
i know my games can be slower pace and have 1 or 2 encounters a day so I lengthen short and long rests.
Wait, we can filibuster the Army of Darkness by sitting around outside the Gates of Inevitable Doom and doing our nails? I brought some new polish samples with me. Those guys are going NOWHERE!
But, yeah, many of the core mechanics and class mechanics sometimes didn't connect all that grandly. A bit like laying a puzzle, and realising that there's likely pieces from three different sets in here and while you can mallet those bits into place, the problems will still be there. I feel you're definitely right about how tying central class mechanics like spellcasting to very unreliable short rest opportunities wasn't the most inspired game design decision.
But, hey, I'm no stranger to putting a kettle of homebrew on my stove. If the official flavour stays janky, I can always add my own secret blend to it in my home games :)
Your incessant hyperboles prove nothing except that you have little actual logic behind your stagnant claims.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
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Dunno. Ask the people who feel like they can take any short rest they like whenever they want, without exception, and if they're interrupted it's the DM being an anti-player jerk.
We don't generally use Hit Dice recovery, no. Either we push on and endure, using rapid recovery when pressed (our table houserules that anyone with Medicine proficiency gains the Healer feat for free because someone with medical training ******* knows how to use a first aid kit; we end up using a lot of healing supplies), or we admit defeat, retreat, LR, and try to fix the problem later. We will if we're absolutely forced to, but whenever we take a short rest to recover the situation we're fighting to resolve gets worse and the minor HP boost we gain from spending Hit Dice is not sufficient to offset the increased difficulty we let ourselves in for.
The general idea is either you're not under time pressure at that moment, at which point there's no need for a short rest and you can just endure until it's time for a long, or you're under time pressure at the moment and thus have no time for a short rest without severely compromising or even outright failing whatever objective you're pursuing is. The moments where it "makes sense" to take a short rest are almost strictly limited to Classic Dungeon Crawls where time is wobbly at best and you're expected to get through 12+ encounters a "day". In almost any other situation it doesn't make sense to sit down and powder your gonads for an hour; either the bad guys aren't currently up to anything and you can powder your gonads for eight hours instead, or the bad guys are Up To Shit and people will die for every minute you spend powdering your gonads.
No in between. And no, there is no in between. Those two things cannot be simultaneously true. Either the bad guys are Up To Shit or they're not; there is no "sorta" up to shit, or "up to shit but only, like...maybe half-assed up to shit, y'know?"
There. Is. No. In. Between.
No one who enjoys/clings to the current short rest-centric Pact Magic model is content with 'one' short rest. They're playing the class specifically and solely to abuse short rests by forcing as many into an adventuring day as possible, to break the game's resource economy wide open and allow them to cast fifty-plus fifth-level spells per day. They're clinging to Pact Magic because they want at-will fifth-level slots, and convincing their table to just let short rests occur naturally for zero time investment whenever the party feels like it is how they get at-will fifth-level slots.
It's not about five minutes or ten minutes or an hour. It's the idea that sitting down to powder your gonads and actively do nothing to stop the enemy from enacting their Evil Plot for whatever arbitrary length of time whilst the enemy is actively in the process of enacting their Evil Plot is ******* stupid. It's a giant signal saying "we don't give a shit about this problem, we don't consider it a problem, and we don't care if the enemy succeeds at what they're doing; we'd rather powder our gonads." If there's an Evil Plot actively afoot and you stop to powder your gonads, that Evil Plot is going to progress and you're going to suffer the consequences of your actions.
Which seems to be an extremely sore point amongst people who think they're magically entitled to Time Stop-level short rests at will no matter what is actually happening in the world, "because that's the intended game design!!1!" Buddy, tell the ancient dracolich who's waited a thousand years for the confluence of the heavens that it's simply not allowed to invade the Realms with its Army of Darkness at the first light of the Blood Moon because it's intended game design that players be able to freeze time like a goddamned Joestar whenever they wish for as long as they wish. Y'all ****ed around and picked flowers, romanced bar stools, argued about crafting, picked bar fights in the town library, and so on when y'all were told that the ancient dracolich was invading the Realms at the first light of the Blood Moon. You knew the timeframe, and you acted like this was a Bethesda game where the Main Quest would sit tight and wait for you to "get around to it." You did this to yourselves and have no one but yourselves to blame when the DM does exactly what they warned you multiple times they'd do and overruns the land with an Army of Darkness.
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This doesn't really address the questions we raised based on your earlier post and claims. Is every session, starting at Level 1, nothing but time-sensitive, world-ending scenarios? Are your games literally nothing but the equivalent of being two steps away from the Gates of Inevitable Doom?
What prevents the party from resting at a slightly removed location? Who would actually try and take a short rest a few feet away from the gate? Is every square mile between Module City and the Gates filled with wandering undead that are deadly-level encounters?
And once the party hits Tier 2, spells like rope trick and tiny hut make taking a short rest MUCH easier and more feasible.
Nobody is arguing that short rests aren't sometimes difficult, or stupid, or deadly (or all three) to take, depending on situational specifics. A number of us are arguing that the hyperbolic claims you're making (taking either 1 rest or 12, no other options) aren't reflective of what the RAW expect from a gaming day nor do they reflect what most games are like. You keep presenting short rests as this broken mechanic because once Session 1 starts, it's breathless racing around the globe to stave off the Eruption of Hell on Earth every second of every day until the campaign is done.
Which...could be true? But as I keep saying: that sounds exhausting, from a player's (and DM's) perspective, and I simply don't accept it's what most people experience at the gaming table.
Ironically, just tried to address this with Aquil.
I subscribe to the idea that short rests are one of two things at any given point in time:
1.) Unnecessary, because there's no time pressure at that moment and thus no need to bother with a "short" rest when you could long instead, if you're in a situation where you can't endure and keep going.
2.) Actively a bad idea, because there is time pressure at that moment and stopping to powder your gonads is handing your enemy free, uninterrupted, uncontested time to progress their Evil Plot and you should not be surprised when they use it.
Short rests exist for the sole, singular use case of "we need to get as much done within this day as we possibly can for whichever weird, alien reason, but we have absolutely no time pressure whatsoever within the day working against us so we can use Hit Dice to artificially extend our endurance before we call it quits for the night." I.e. there's time pressure on the day as a whole but not any time pressure within that specific day, which is a situation that has arisen precisely never in my five-odd years of playing D&D. Again - either there's no overriding time pressure and thus no reason to sit down for an hour and powder our gonads, or there is time pressure and we need to be doing everything in our power to make effective use of time. Which precludes short rests because short rests are quite possibly the least effective use of time in all of D&D 5e.
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In other words, person who doesn't play at a typical table, using house rules to avoid using hit dice, complains because they don't house rule Warlocks the same way. If you can "rapid recovery" for hit points then you can "rapid recovery" for spell slots.
No wonder there's no communication here. You're not even speaking the same language.
As for the original topic.
Patron's Favor: "Warlocks gain one spell slot when initiative is rolled. This cannot take them above their starting spell slots."
Problem solved. Moving on.
So taking an hour rest says “we don't give a shit about this problem, we don't consider it a problem, and we don't care if the enemy succeeds at what they're doing; we'd rather powder our gonads.” Then you shouldn’t be taking an 8 hour long-rest either. 8 hours is way longer than 1 hour.
You know, Dming is already hard enough as is. This gatekeeping bs really doesn't help anyone. There's already a shortage of Dms in this community.
I also don't know why people think that it's just the dm creating no short rest sessions. Some players just have an irrational hatred of short rests. Sometimes things go to shit in the session and the players have to take a long rest sooner than intended. (My players once accidentally triggered 3 encounters at once and were forced to take a long rest instead of the short one I intended.) Some groups just enjoy having fewer encounters.
Rather than forcing groups to conform to an arbitrary 'adventuring day,' maybe d&d should grant more flexibility? I don't feel like that should be a controversial take.
You forget that Yurei lives in Yurei-land, where taking five minutes to most of your health means the universe exploded.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
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This explains a lot. You are very contradictory. According to you pulling back and resting one hour to recover health and resources is too much and gives the enemy too much time but doing so for 20 hours is just fine. Ticking clocks arent just "do this in 5 minutes or everyone dies". They also include "reinforcements and supploes will arrive tomorrow, once they do it will be impossible to thwart the enemies." You know what you dont have time for at that point? A long rest. You know what you cant afford? To go in low health and unprepared. You know what you can afford? A short rest.
Another thing, I don't care if the warlock players WANT 2, 3 or 7 short rests. It is mathematically full caster equivalent with 1. Except at levels 8,9 and 10. 3 entire levels of the game. Not a lot of classes can say only 3 levels suck.
"The army of Darkness is coming, we need to be ready for them lets send the adventuring party that only progresses for an hour a day and then jacks off for 23 hours for a long rest because taking a lunch break is too long."
As with most tables, we all very rarely play 5e as written or intended. We all play our own homebrew version of 5e. Yurie your homebrew version is extremely loosely based. I have played with around 6 different GM'S, a very small sample size, and none have come close to either end of your thing.
See, what we actually did was say "the Medicine skill is almost completely useless in 5e, and the Healer feat provides rules for combat medic/mundane healing that are actually really neat but basically never come up because taking Healer as a feat is actively stupid. So...what if we just make mundane healing a thing people can do if they're trained in Medicine?" As it turns out, that enables a surprising amount of mundane healing, and makes healing/first aid supplies actually useful. We don't need a constant drip feed of hundreds of healing potions because our emergency slap patches come in the form of Healer's Kit uses, and restocking the healer's kit from a local apothecary works much better than the random podunk village at the edge of the frontier just having a dozen healing potions to sell whenever we need them.
We didn't houserule away short rests; we houseruled first aid back into the game properly. I actually recommend the rule for anyone who has issues with Healing Potion Spam or who wants nonmagical characters to have a better way to contribute to group healing/CLS. It's worked very well for us and made a formerly dead skill proficiency prized and valuable.
You missed the part where I said "we admit defeat, retreat, long rest, and try to fix the problem later." If that's not viable, then yes - at my table, the players would push without long resting and do their best to stop the Evil Plot while at the edge of their HP and resources. That's what heroes do. Sometimes heroes fail, the Evil Plot resolves successfully, and we have to pursue damage control and a different means of progressing in our objectives, but that's how adventuring life works.
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I think you posted seconds before I did!
I just don't agree with your extreme takes on short rests, for a few reasons.
Not every gaming day of every campaign is a race against time. Some game days - some entire campaigns - are exploratory in nature, not tied to saving the earth from the 200 Foot Tall Colossus of Fire. What if you've been hired to map out a territory without a hard deadline? Taking a short rest makes eminent sense then, because you simply have no idea what might be encountered later that day. It benefits the fighter, it benefits the warlock, and even other classes. It's not about abuse; it's about wisely recollecting resources after a fight with some grippli when the next encounter might be with a T-rex. Your argument that short rests are only available when you don't need them does not at all mesh with my experiences of playing 5E since 2017.
Also, not every foe or BBG of a campaign is going to be a fiend or undead who never rests or recuperates or the like. Sometimes the BBEG is just as mortal (if far more powerful) than the party, and as someone wrote in a different thread, even the BBEG has to sleep and poop.
You rightly point out that when dungeoncrawling or some very similar activity in very hostile territory, taking a short rest can be very, very tricky (or impossible or deadly). Yes. Everyone's acknowledged this truth (though, again, once the characters hit Tier 2 and above, there are a LOT of magical helps that can be used to obtain a short rest assuming the world won't end in an hour). But there are many, many encounter economies and scenarios that fall between "never a need for a short rest" and "taking a short rest will be our certain doom." Everything you describe about your campaigns (which as I've said before, sound pretty damn cool in terms of tone and situations) seems to be far more demanding and exhausting that what seems to be the norm, if posts here are any indication.
Finally, please stop saying that anyone who likes the 2014 PHB warlock only does so to abuse short rests. This is actively offensive to me; I f**king hate that kind of approach to the rules via finding "loopholes" or unintended gamebreaking dealios - and I'm someone who really loves the 2014 warlock. I've never wanted nor tried to abuse the use of short rests - I really think the most I've ever take in a single gaming day was three (but more likely two). I've certainly never taken 6, or 10, or 12 short rests, nor would I try to abuse the rules that way.
ETA: the house rule about the Healer's feat is a neat one. Might consider incorporating that into my game.
That is one type of warlock I guess. I generally see them as focused arcanists who realized the magics cast by normal people did not go far enough so they researched deeper into knowledge mortals were not meant to know.
Pulling back to powder your gonads for an hour is "okay, this is now way harder to succeed at, hope you guys make those five extra hit points and Derrick's one whole spell slot count."
Pulling back for twenty hours is "okay, you guys failed to stop the Evil Plot entirely, and now you're going to have to deal with the consequences of your failure."
Never said pulling back to LR was "fine". I said it was an admission of defeat, and that we'd have to cope with the fallout of that failure.
A situation that arises in almost no games. I could craft a purpose-built scenario to "encourage" short rests too. Doesn't make them a good game mechanic.
You're assuming the warlocxk is casting spells perfectly, emptying their tank flawlessly and restocking at the exact optimal time to do so in service of utterly maximizing spell count per day by pre-emptively knowing when they're allowed to cast and when they're not. No warlock does this. Warlocks have so little leveled casting that they are forced to conserve resources against future need, which results in a sharp decrease in use and thus a sharp decrease in spells per day.
White room math never tells the whole story.
Is it my fault a majority of D&D players are faffing ****abouts who wouldn't know a ticking clock if you broke it over their heads in a bar fight and are outrageously wasteful with their resources? At my table, players who make egregiously poor use of time will discover that it doesn't go well for them. No, this does not mean "no downtime" or "constant rush"; it means when you know something needs to be done and you spend five sessions seducing the town's furniture instead of doing the thing what needs done because "lawl that's so funny and chaotic let's tell CritCrab about it!", you have no complaints coming when the DM says "well, y'all spent a week seducing furniture instead of forestalling the Army of Darkness, so now the Army of Darkness is here and they broke all the furniture. What do you do now?"
Please do not contact or message me.
I definitely wish they had gone into stranger invocations. It requires a lot more work though on their end. Its this spell is just easy.