So they cannot wait 4 successes for the specialist to finish? 4 successes!! Then when disarming a bomb all the police around are running crazy in all directions because they have to do something. What kind of players are now? Let each one does its job.
I think you misunderstand...
Clerics might still be the best at perception and some part ofthe skills might do that. But let's say you make a critical success and roll a 100 on the check, well, congrats, you move the skill up a tick as well.
Or, your thieves are great at stealing and picking locks, and over time, they just get more steal-ier and lock pick-ier.
Larger ranges allow for that breathing room.
They were referring to Agilemind's post.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
So they cannot wait 4 successes for the specialist to finish? 4 successes!! Then when disarming a bomb all the police around are running crazy in all directions because they have to do something. What kind of players are now? Let each one does its job.
I think you misunderstand...
Clerics might still be the best at perception and some part ofthe skills might do that. But let's say you make a critical success and roll a 100 on the check, well, congrats, you move the skill up a tick as well.
Or, your thieves are great at stealing and picking locks, and over time, they just get more steal-ier and lock pick-ier.
Larger ranges allow for that breathing room.
They were referring to Agilemind's post.
Yeah, sorry. Doing things and yeah. Distracted....
I feel like that was the big underlying point of 5E's restrictive bonus model - that it would also come with a comparatively restrictive DC range.
The problem is that they got sloppy on their bonus model, so it really isn't all that restrictive; you can stack expertise and guidance and bardic inspiration and flash of genius and item bonuses and more specific class bonuses to wind up with DC 40 being fairly achievable and DC 50 achievable with some effort.
The idea that higher level HAS to come with a higher DC makes me go "why?"
Higher level characters have more tools to solve problems, so if you want to challenge them, you have to make the problems harder. To some degree you can do this with "more checks" instead of "harder checks", but no number of DC 15 checks will be relevant to someone with a check bonus of +14 or higher...
I know. That's why I push for the pacts as subclasses. There's just so much more to it than the patrons.
It's a pipe dream much like the idea of more pacts, which I'm with halcyonesse on. I wish there were more, but even if we get them, they're going to be.... Well, half assed.
If the pacts are subclasses then patrons will just be fluff like how Cleric works. They'd have to create some kind of table with suggestions for which patrons fit best with each pact, but it could work.
Blade Pact: Spells: (From Hexblade)
3rd level -> Pact of the Blade + CHA weapon attacks + Medium Armour Proficiency + Weapon Mastery 6th level -> Extra Attack + replace one of the attacks with a cantrip 10th level -> Life Drinker + Relentless Hex 14th level -> 1/turn add your Prof Bonus to the damage of one of your weapon attacks.
3rd -> Pact of the Tome + Tome of Ancient Secrets + 1/day cast a ritual without the 10 minute penalty 6th -> Far Scribe + you can read and write and speak all languages 10th -> Start of each day, create a scroll of 1 warlock spell you know with a casting time of 1 action that lasts until next LR, you can use the scroll to cast the inscribed spell as an Action without expending a spell slot. 14th -> Gift of the Protectors but have it also protect against insta-death effects.
3rd -> Investments of the Chain Master + Pact of the Chain + Ability to expend a spellslot to instantly summon your familiar with HP scaling by spell slot (10 additional hp per spell slot level) 6th -> Any spell you cast that targets only yourself is also cast on your familiar. 10th -> When a creature you have summoned is reduced to 0 hp, you gain temporary HP equal to your warlock level. 14th -> Gift of the Ever-Living Ones : but it applies to you and any creature you have summoned and doesn't require your familiar to be present.
Talisman Pact: Spells: Shield of Faith, Heroism, Aid, Enhance Ability, Haste, Protection from Energy, Death Ward, Fire Shield, Antilife Shell, Holy Weapon
3rd -> Pact of the Talisman (no use limit) + Rebuke of the Talisman 6th -> Protection of the Talisman + you can cast spells as if you were in the position of whomever is wearing your talisman, you must use your senses to target the spell + you can use 1 action to replace your sight & hearing with those of the wearer of your talisman until the end of your turn. 10th -> When you cast a spell using your pact magic spell slots that targets the wearer of your Talisman you can teleport them up to 30ft to a location you can see, and they can use their reaction to make 1 weapon attack against a creature of your choice (the creature must be within their reach if they are making a melee attack). 14th -> Bond of the Talisman
So they cannot wait 4 successes for the specialist to finish? 4 successes!! Then when disarming a bomb all the police around are running crazy in all directions because they have to do something. What kind of players are now? Let each one does its job.
Wait 4 rounds of combat (if they succeed each roll), taking damage each round, while having nothing to do? Why would they just stand there and wait?
Or consider the social scenes we had, the bard did all of the talking (Cha skill mods of +9-+11), the Fighter and Barbarian didn't say a word (Cha mods of 0/-1). Does that sound like fun?
Also, no the police don't just stand around doing nothing while bomb squad disarms a bomb. They are either: (1) evacutating / securing the area, or (2) looking for the bomber.
?? Are they not in the scene? The good at talking talks, the others hears, what’s the rare there? I don’t understand. Fun? Why not? They are not interested at all about what happens, the info gotten, or how it is going? Why are they playing then?
5e isn't designed for bigger numbers but the bounded accuracy/small number system is a bit of a miss imo. It places too much value on the d20 at all levels of play. A 20th level warlock lets say is trained in arcana, int may not be a dump stat but its not a primary so they have a +6 still max prof bonus without expertise they basically have a masters degree(got to get expertise for that sweet doctorate) in arcana. A level 1 hobbyist will school them on arcana fairly regularly., All because of the d20. Small modifiers works better when the die method is something like a 3d6. On a d20 its just too swingy. They wont be dropping either so we are kind of stuck with small numbers big variable die roll.
This is very much a choice of game philosophy. We've just started playing Pathfinder 2e in one of my groups b/c the DM prefers it to 5e, and there you add your level to skills you're proficient in. What this means in game play though, is that whenever there is a "thing" to be done, only the PC that is proficient in that "thing" will even attempt it. E.g. in our last session there was a magical trap we needed to disarm, the Bard had a +9 to attempt that while the Barbarian and the Fighter had a +0 and a -1 respectively. So rather than stand there taking damage each round doing nothing while the Bard attempted to accumulate the 4 successes needed to disarm it, the Fighter and Barbarian just continued on into the dungeon and left the bard there to deal with the trap. Eventually the Fighter & Barbarian ran into some enemies and shouted back to the bard to join them. Now, then did that series of events make the players feel good? The Bard did eventually get to go finish disarming the trap and sure they got to be special and the only one who could do it, but they missed out on exploring the dungeon, and two rounds of the combat encounter.
Whether you prefer for unskilled characters to feel useless and bored so that skilled characters can feel special, or prefer the whole party participating in every encounter but skilled characters to feel like their skill investment doesn't matter much. Is very much a personal preference.
I think that still happens in 5es model. So what did it solve. If the fail result means you've triggered a trap or mangled negotiations in your next example players generally just don't roll and let the specialist do something. Everyone gets to roll in one off history tests and then the specialist gets to wonder why they bothered putting skills in things like that.
?? Are they not in the scene? The good at talking talks, the others hears, what’s the rare there? I don’t understand. Fun? Why not? They are not interested at all about what happens, the info gotten, or how it is going? Why are they playing then?
Because they don't want to be asked to roll a CHA skill check, because they would need a Nat20 to succeed.
It wasn't really until the Eloquence Bard that I started seeing the same behaviour in 5e. But yes definitely when we had an Eloquence bard in the party, we left all talking to them.
I know. That's why I push for the pacts as subclasses. There's just so much more to it than the patrons.
It's a pipe dream much like the idea of more pacts, which I'm with halcyonesse on. I wish there were more, but even if we get them, they're going to be.... Well, half assed.
If the pacts are subclasses then patrons will just be fluff like how Cleric works. They'd have to create some kind of table with suggestions for which patrons fit best with each pact, but it could work.
Blade Pact: Spells: (From Hexblade)
3rd level -> Pact of the Blade + CHA weapon attacks + Medium Armour Proficiency + Weapon Mastery 6th level -> Extra Attack + replace one of the attacks with a cantrip 10th level -> Life Drinker + Relentless Hex 14th level -> 1/turn add your Prof Bonus to the damage of one of your weapon attacks.
3rd -> Pact of the Tome + Tome of Ancient Secrets + 1/day cast a ritual without the 10 minute penalty 6th -> Far Scribe + you can read and write and speak all languages 10th -> Start of each day, create a scroll of 1 warlock spell you know with a casting time of 1 action that lasts until next LR, you can use the scroll to cast the inscribed spell as an Action without expending a spell slot. 14th -> Gift of the Protectors but have it also protect against insta-death effects.
3rd -> Investments of the Chain Master + Pact of the Chain + Ability to expend a spellslot to instantly summon your familiar with HP scaling by spell slot (10 additional hp per spell slot level) 6th -> Any spell you cast that targets only yourself is also cast on your familiar. 10th -> When a creature you have summoned is reduced to 0 hp, you gain temporary HP equal to your warlock level. 14th -> Gift of the Ever-Living Ones : but it applies to you and any creature you have summoned and doesn't require your familiar to be present.
Talisman Pact: Spells: Shield of Faith, Heroism, Aid, Enhance Ability, Haste, Protection from Energy, Death Ward, Fire Shield, Antilife Shell, Holy Weapon
3rd -> Pact of the Talisman (no use limit) + Rebuke of the Talisman 6th -> Protection of the Talisman + you can cast spells as if you were in the position of whomever is wearing your talisman, you must use your senses to target the spell + you can use 1 action to replace your sight & hearing with those of the wearer of your talisman until the end of your turn. 10th -> When you cast a spell using your pact magic spell slots that targets the wearer of your Talisman you can teleport them up to 30ft to a location you can see, and they can use their reaction to make 1 weapon attack against a creature of your choice (the creature must be within their reach if they are making a melee attack). 14th -> Bond of the Talisman
I like this.
The patrons have always felt like flavor over pact. I mean how do we describe them?
Hexblade, chain lock, tome lock. Outside of goolock, we don't say feylock or fiendlock or angellock....
The conjure elemental is an interesting choice. I like it, and I like it's separate from the familiar. It's a nice reasonable power up.
?? Are they not in the scene? The good at talking talks, the others hears, what’s the rare there? I don’t understand. Fun? Why not? They are not interested at all about what happens, the info gotten, or how it is going? Why are they playing then?
Because they don't want to be asked to roll a CHA skill check, because they would need a Nat20 to succeed.
It wasn't really until the Eloquence Bard that I started seeing the same behaviour in 5e. But yes definitely when we had an Eloquence bard in the party, we left all talking to them.
And the party don't talk about what to ask, how to do the things, or get what's going? What is the relation of a check?
?? Are they not in the scene? The good at talking talks, the others hears, what’s the rare there? I don’t understand. Fun? Why not? They are not interested at all about what happens, the info gotten, or how it is going? Why are they playing then?
Because they don't want to be asked to roll a CHA skill check, because they would need a Nat20 to succeed.
It wasn't really until the Eloquence Bard that I started seeing the same behaviour in 5e. But yes definitely when we had an Eloquence bard in the party, we left all talking to them.
And the party don't talk about what to ask, how to do the things, or get what's going? What is the relation of a check?
Sorry I don't know what you are trying to ask here. But this is how RP scenes work at our table:
PCs don't talk to each other like the NPC isn't there mid-conversation because that would be weird. PCs generally know little about the NPC before beginning the conversation. The character the brings up a new point with the NPC or who tries a new tactic is asked to roll a charisma skill check that reflects that tactic. Thus if your character is really bad at charisma skill checks you can listen to an RP scene, but you don't participate in it.
?? Are they not in the scene? The good at talking talks, the others hears, what’s the rare there? I don’t understand. Fun? Why not? They are not interested at all about what happens, the info gotten, or how it is going? Why are they playing then?
Because they don't want to be asked to roll a CHA skill check, because they would need a Nat20 to succeed.
It wasn't really until the Eloquence Bard that I started seeing the same behaviour in 5e. But yes definitely when we had an Eloquence bard in the party, we left all talking to them.
And the party don't talk about what to ask, how to do the things, or get what's going? What is the relation of a check?
Sorry I don't know what you are trying to ask here. But this is how RP scenes work at our table:
PCs don't talk to each other like the NPC isn't there mid-conversation because that would be weird. PCs generally know little about the NPC before beginning the conversation. The character the brings up a new point with the NPC or who tries a new tactic is asked to roll a charisma skill check that reflects that tactic. Thus if your character is really bad at charisma skill checks you can listen to an RP scene, but you don't participate in it.
I can see few cases in which someone could get angry because the others talk to make decisions, maybe on high protocol scenarios. And in the case of PF2, once the expert initiated the chat, the others could “follow the expert”. So don’t be so reserved to participate more.
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They were referring to Agilemind's post.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Yeah, sorry. Doing things and yeah. Distracted....
The problem is that they got sloppy on their bonus model, so it really isn't all that restrictive; you can stack expertise and guidance and bardic inspiration and flash of genius and item bonuses and more specific class bonuses to wind up with DC 40 being fairly achievable and DC 50 achievable with some effort.
Higher level characters have more tools to solve problems, so if you want to challenge them, you have to make the problems harder. To some degree you can do this with "more checks" instead of "harder checks", but no number of DC 15 checks will be relevant to someone with a check bonus of +14 or higher...
If the pacts are subclasses then patrons will just be fluff like how Cleric works. They'd have to create some kind of table with suggestions for which patrons fit best with each pact, but it could work.
Blade Pact:
Spells: (From Hexblade)
3rd level -> Pact of the Blade + CHA weapon attacks + Medium Armour Proficiency + Weapon Mastery
6th level -> Extra Attack + replace one of the attacks with a cantrip
10th level -> Life Drinker + Relentless Hex
14th level -> 1/turn add your Prof Bonus to the damage of one of your weapon attacks.
Tome Pact:
Spells: Dissonant Whispers, Identify, Detect Thoughts, Silence, Tiny Hut, Sending, Greater Invisibility, Private Sanctum, Legend Lore, Scrying
3rd -> Pact of the Tome + Tome of Ancient Secrets + 1/day cast a ritual without the 10 minute penalty
6th -> Far Scribe + you can read and write and speak all languages
10th -> Start of each day, create a scroll of 1 warlock spell you know with a casting time of 1 action that lasts until next LR, you can use the scroll to cast the inscribed spell as an Action without expending a spell slot.
14th -> Gift of the Protectors but have it also protect against insta-death effects.
Chain Pact:
Spells: Command, Snare, Warding Bond, Mind Whip, Life Transference, Phantom Steed, Dominate Beast, Giant Insect, Dominate Person, Conjure Elemental
3rd -> Investments of the Chain Master + Pact of the Chain + Ability to expend a spellslot to instantly summon your familiar with HP scaling by spell slot (10 additional hp per spell slot level)
6th -> Any spell you cast that targets only yourself is also cast on your familiar.
10th -> When a creature you have summoned is reduced to 0 hp, you gain temporary HP equal to your warlock level.
14th -> Gift of the Ever-Living Ones : but it applies to you and any creature you have summoned and doesn't require your familiar to be present.
Talisman Pact:
Spells: Shield of Faith, Heroism, Aid, Enhance Ability, Haste, Protection from Energy, Death Ward, Fire Shield, Antilife Shell, Holy Weapon
3rd -> Pact of the Talisman (no use limit) + Rebuke of the Talisman
6th -> Protection of the Talisman + you can cast spells as if you were in the position of whomever is wearing your talisman, you must use your senses to target the spell + you can use 1 action to replace your sight & hearing with those of the wearer of your talisman until the end of your turn.
10th -> When you cast a spell using your pact magic spell slots that targets the wearer of your Talisman you can teleport them up to 30ft to a location you can see, and they can use their reaction to make 1 weapon attack against a creature of your choice (the creature must be within their reach if they are making a melee attack).
14th -> Bond of the Talisman
Wait 4 rounds of combat (if they succeed each roll), taking damage each round, while having nothing to do? Why would they just stand there and wait?
Or consider the social scenes we had, the bard did all of the talking (Cha skill mods of +9-+11), the Fighter and Barbarian didn't say a word (Cha mods of 0/-1). Does that sound like fun?
Also, no the police don't just stand around doing nothing while bomb squad disarms a bomb. They are either: (1) evacutating / securing the area, or (2) looking for the bomber.
?? Are they not in the scene? The good at talking talks, the others hears, what’s the rare there? I don’t understand. Fun? Why not? They are not interested at all about what happens, the info gotten, or how it is going? Why are they playing then?
I think that still happens in 5es model. So what did it solve. If the fail result means you've triggered a trap or mangled negotiations in your next example players generally just don't roll and let the specialist do something. Everyone gets to roll in one off history tests and then the specialist gets to wonder why they bothered putting skills in things like that.
Because they don't want to be asked to roll a CHA skill check, because they would need a Nat20 to succeed.
It wasn't really until the Eloquence Bard that I started seeing the same behaviour in 5e. But yes definitely when we had an Eloquence bard in the party, we left all talking to them.
I like this.
The patrons have always felt like flavor over pact. I mean how do we describe them?
Hexblade, chain lock, tome lock. Outside of goolock, we don't say feylock or fiendlock or angellock....
The conjure elemental is an interesting choice. I like it, and I like it's separate from the familiar. It's a nice reasonable power up.
And the party don't talk about what to ask, how to do the things, or get what's going? What is the relation of a check?
Sorry I don't know what you are trying to ask here. But this is how RP scenes work at our table:
PCs don't talk to each other like the NPC isn't there mid-conversation because that would be weird. PCs generally know little about the NPC before beginning the conversation. The character the brings up a new point with the NPC or who tries a new tactic is asked to roll a charisma skill check that reflects that tactic. Thus if your character is really bad at charisma skill checks you can listen to an RP scene, but you don't participate in it.
I can see few cases in which someone could get angry because the others talk to make decisions, maybe on high protocol scenarios. And in the case of PF2, once the expert initiated the chat, the others could “follow the expert”. So don’t be so reserved to participate more.