How do people interpret the current rules for throwing improvised weapons? The PHB has “If a character…throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon had a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.”
The Brawler’s Improvised Expert feature allows you to add the light or thrown (range 20/60 ft) properties to 1-handed improvised weapons and reach (10 ft) or thrown (10/30) to 2-handed. As far as I can tell, choosing the thrown property only has a benefit at level 15 when your 2H IWs gain a d12 damage die.
Am I missing something here?
By default improvised thrown weapons use Dexterity for their attack and damage rolls. Being able to add the Thrown property to improvised weapons lets the Brawler use Strength instead for those rolls.
This pairs well with their Unarmed Strikes and melee attacks with improvised weapons which already use Strength by default, and means the Brawler doesn't need to invest in both Strength and Dex in order to use both melee and ranged improvised weapon attacks.
How do people interpret the current rules for throwing improvised weapons? The PHB has “If a character…throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon had a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.”
The Brawler’s Improvised Expert feature allows you to add the light or thrown (range 20/60 ft) properties to 1-handed improvised weapons and reach (10 ft) or thrown (10/30) to 2-handed. As far as I can tell, choosing the thrown property only has a benefit at level 15 when your 2H IWs gain a d12 damage die.
Am I missing something here?
By default improvised thrown weapons use Dexterity for their attack and damage rolls. Being able to add the Thrown property to improvised weapons lets the Brawler use Strength instead for those rolls.
This pairs well with their Unarmed Strikes and melee attacks with improvised weapons which already use Strength by default, and means the Brawler doesn't need to invest in both Strength and Dex in order to use both melee and ranged improvised weapon attacks.
Of course! I thought there was something I had missed.
It does still feel as though there need to be some clearer rules for Improvised Weapons presented.
That was already covered under the existing setup, as Monks can use their Martial Arts damage die in place of a weapon's damage die if they're proficient. There's a certain degree of "mother may I", but considering there's little difference between the weapon and an unarmed attack, it's not really an issue mechanically to allow.
It wasn't stated anywhere explicitly that monks were proficient with improvised weapons, or could use them as monk weapons, with Dex. This however could be used as a way for monk to gain access to different weapon properties like reach, thrown, and various masteries. Martial arts scaling dice resolve the problem with improvised weapon damage.
In many probably most Jackie Chan movies he isn’t a monk. He is closer to a fighter with unarmed fighting style and tavern brawler. There is no ki, Magic or mysticism in most of his movies.
Real life shaolin monks also don't use magic. And neither did actual real life paladins, in DnD terms they were just fighters with knight background. Your point?
My point is most Jackie Chan’s movie characters aren’t Monks. Those characters aren’t real either. We have examples of actual dnd monks in movies like Five Deadly Venoms, Hero, Crouching Tiger, Kung Fu Hustle and Iron Monkey are good examples. I might give you Drunken Master since drinking alcohol actually made him better, but even that didn’t really explore the mysticism of a D&D monk.
By default improvised thrown weapons use Dexterity for their attack and damage rolls. Being able to add the Thrown property to improvised weapons lets the Brawler use Strength instead for those rolls.
This pairs well with their Unarmed Strikes and melee attacks with improvised weapons which already use Strength by default, and means the Brawler doesn't need to invest in both Strength and Dex in order to use both melee and ranged improvised weapon attacks.
I don't believe this is correct. Ranged weapons require Dexterity, but all melee weapons require Strength unless they have the Finesse property, even thrown weapons. Thrown weapons only have the option to use Dexterity if they also have the Finesse property. It would only require Dexterity if the DM rules that the improvised weapon you are throwing is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon (like a dart).
That's my interpretation, at least. Here's the thrown property for reference:
Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.
How do people interpret the current rules for throwing improvised weapons? The PHB has “If a character…throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon had a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.”
The Brawler’s Improvised Expert feature allows you to add the light or thrown (range 20/60 ft) properties to 1-handed improvised weapons and reach (10 ft) or thrown (10/30) to 2-handed. As far as I can tell, choosing the thrown property only has a benefit at level 15 when your 2H IWs gain a d12 damage die.
Am I missing something here?
I was baffled by this as well. Here's the benefit: If the DM allows you to treat an improvised weapon as an actual weapon (e.g.,, a log as a greatclub or maul), then you can throw it and still use the better damage.
"Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus. ... If a character ... throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it ... deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet."
So if you're using an improvised weapon that the DM lets you use as a maul, but you throw it, you're still only dealing 1d4 damage since a maul doesn't have the Thrown property. But if you add the Thrown property with the Brawler, you can deal still 2d6 damage.
However, that all assumes that an improvised weapon being treated as an actual weapon is still technically an improvised weapon. Which is also up to DM interpretation because of the vagueness of the writing.
As a certified* Rules Lawyer™️, that's the best rules-as-written interpretation I can muster. *Not actually certified
It just seems so strange, though. With so much focus in the videos and features on removing DM fiat, why does this subclass have so much focus on DM fiat? The DM gets to decide whether you're holding light hammers or dual-wieldable morningstars, and whether you're wielding basically a whip or a maul with reach. I mean, taking with your DM is a great skill to have, but the power gap seems vast for such a decision when there should probably be a set, intended design.
Also, going from 1d4+STR to 1d12+STR+PB on every attack seems like such an absurd power jump. It really needs to be smoothed out.
By default improvised thrown weapons use Dexterity for their attack and damage rolls. Being able to add the Thrown property to improvised weapons lets the Brawler use Strength instead for those rolls.
This pairs well with their Unarmed Strikes and melee attacks with improvised weapons which already use Strength by default, and means the Brawler doesn't need to invest in both Strength and Dex in order to use both melee and ranged improvised weapon attacks.
I don't believe this is correct. Ranged weapons require Dexterity, but all melee weapons require Strength unless they have the Finesse property, even thrown weapons. Thrown weapons only have the option to use Dexterity if they also have the Finesse property. It would only require Dexterity if the DM rules that the improvised weapon you are throwing is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon (like a dart).
That's my interpretation, at least. Here's the thrown property for reference:
Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.
How do people interpret the current rules for throwing improvised weapons? The PHB has “If a character…throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon had a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.”
The Brawler’s Improvised Expert feature allows you to add the light or thrown (range 20/60 ft) properties to 1-handed improvised weapons and reach (10 ft) or thrown (10/30) to 2-handed. As far as I can tell, choosing the thrown property only has a benefit at level 15 when your 2H IWs gain a d12 damage die.
Am I missing something here?
I was baffled by this as well. Here's the benefit: If the DM allows you to treat an improvised weapon as an actual weapon (e.g.,, a log as a greatclub or maul), then you can throw it and still use the better damage.
"Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus. ... If a character ... throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it ... deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet."
So if you're using an improvised weapon that the DM lets you use as a maul, but you throw it, you're still only dealing 1d4 damage since a maul doesn't have the Thrown property. But if you add the Thrown property with the Brawler, you can deal still 2d6 damage.
However, that all assumes that an improvised weapon being treated as an actual weapon is still technically an improvised weapon. Which is also up to DM interpretation because of the vagueness of the writing.
As a certified* Rules Lawyer™️, that's the best rules-as-written interpretation I can muster. *Not actually certified
It just seems so strange, though. With so much focus in the videos and features on removing DM fiat, why does this subclass have so much focus on DM fiat? The DM gets to decide whether you're holding light hammers or dual-wieldable morningstars, and whether you're wielding basically a whip or a maul with reach. I mean, taking with your DM is a great skill to have, but the power gap seems vast for such a decision when there should probably be a set, intended design.
Also, going from 1d4+STR to 1d12+STR+PB on every attack seems like such an absurd power jump. It really needs to be smoothed out.
So RAW, you are right. They state that improvised weapons can be treated as real weapons, but they never state that it loses its improvised weapon status. And, analyzing it, and playtesting it, treating it that way makes the class interesting. There is often not much value in a d4 attack no matter the properties, especially for a fighter who probably has every weapon available.
The reason I think they didn't alter the base definition, is because they like saying something logically correct in the least words possible, even if its intent, or the intuitive reading would be clearer with more words
They wanted to keep improvised weapons fairly open. The base concept being They are either like a weapon, or they are a d4, And using weapons incorrectly makes them improvised if they weren't already, but they didnt want to give the player the ultimate final say. They want the dm to be able to adjust it or make judgement calls.
Which I don't think is working, most players don't know what the improvised weapon heading means in the context of brawler, and lots of dms say they don't consider improvised weapons to be considered weapons. They feel like improvised weapons should always be d4s, or maybe a d8, but never a 2d6. Or generally saying they want more explicit guidance.
But I think the reality is the improvised weapon brawler, and improvised rules in general work best if the DM plays along rather than tries to minimize it. Being ultra specific can be a problem because then the DM often closes off possibilities rather than adapting to the situation/desire of the table. Is the chairv leg a club, or a mace, or a morningstar? The best answer probably is not about the dimensions and size of the chair leg, but what works best in the game/story in that moment to create an interesting encounter. Its also hard to come up with one size fits all answers to any object you can hold in one or two hands
By default improvised thrown weapons use Dexterity for their attack and damage rolls. Being able to add the Thrown property to improvised weapons lets the Brawler use Strength instead for those rolls.
This pairs well with their Unarmed Strikes and melee attacks with improvised weapons which already use Strength by default, and means the Brawler doesn't need to invest in both Strength and Dex in order to use both melee and ranged improvised weapon attacks.
I don't believe this is correct. Ranged weapons require Dexterity, but all melee weapons require Strength unless they have the Finesse property, even thrown weapons. Thrown weapons only have the option to use Dexterity if they also have the Finesse property. It would only require Dexterity if the DM rules that the improvised weapon you are throwing is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon (like a dart).
That's my interpretation, at least. Here's the thrown property for reference:
Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.
How do people interpret the current rules for throwing improvised weapons? The PHB has “If a character…throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon had a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.”
The Brawler’s Improvised Expert feature allows you to add the light or thrown (range 20/60 ft) properties to 1-handed improvised weapons and reach (10 ft) or thrown (10/30) to 2-handed. As far as I can tell, choosing the thrown property only has a benefit at level 15 when your 2H IWs gain a d12 damage die.
Am I missing something here?
I was baffled by this as well. Here's the benefit: If the DM allows you to treat an improvised weapon as an actual weapon (e.g.,, a log as a greatclub or maul), then you can throw it and still use the better damage.
"Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus. ... If a character ... throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it ... deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet."
So if you're using an improvised weapon that the DM lets you use as a maul, but you throw it, you're still only dealing 1d4 damage since a maul doesn't have the Thrown property. But if you add the Thrown property with the Brawler, you can deal still 2d6 damage.
However, that all assumes that an improvised weapon being treated as an actual weapon is still technically an improvised weapon. Which is also up to DM interpretation because of the vagueness of the writing.
As a certified* Rules Lawyer™️, that's the best rules-as-written interpretation I can muster. *Not actually certified
It just seems so strange, though. With so much focus in the videos and features on removing DM fiat, why does this subclass have so much focus on DM fiat? The DM gets to decide whether you're holding light hammers or dual-wieldable morningstars, and whether you're wielding basically a whip or a maul with reach. I mean, taking with your DM is a great skill to have, but the power gap seems vast for such a decision when there should probably be a set, intended design.
Also, going from 1d4+STR to 1d12+STR+PB on every attack seems like such an absurd power jump. It really needs to be smoothed out.
So RAW, you are right. They state that improvised weapons can be treated as real weapons, but they never state that it loses its improvised weapon status. And, analyzing it, and playtesting it, treating it that way makes the class interesting. There is often not much value in a d4 attack no matter the properties, especially for a fighter who probably has every weapon available.
The reason I think they didn't alter the base definition, is because they like saying something logically correct in the least words possible, even if its intent, or the intuitive reading would be clearer with more words
They wanted to keep improvised weapons fairly open. The base concept being They are either like a weapon, or they are a d4, And using weapons incorrectly makes them improvised if they weren't already, but they didnt want to give the player the ultimate final say. They want the dm to be able to adjust it or make judgement calls.
Which I don't think is working, most players don't know what the improvised weapon heading means in the context of brawler, and lots of dms say they don't consider improvised weapons to be considered weapons. They feel like improvised weapons should always be d4s, or maybe a d8, but never a 2d6. Or generally saying they want more explicit guidance.
But I think the reality is the improvised weapon brawler, and improvised rules in general work best if the DM plays along rather than tries to minimize it. Being ultra specific can be a problem because then the DM often closes off possibilities rather than adapting to the situation/desire of the table. Is the chairv leg a club, or a mace, or a morningstar? The best answer probably is not about the dimensions and size of the chair leg, but what works best in the game/story in that moment to create an interesting encounter. Its also hard to come up with one size fits all answers to any object you can hold in one or two hands
I'll be honest, there's some serious "1984" vibes to the rules. I'm not 100% sure those were the original rules...
The revisions occur and not always across the board, OR they just happen and one day, "oops, scimitars aren't allowed for two weapon fighting and "simple has become "light".
In a way, they can publish whatever the hell they want for the "cross compatibility" and it'll be fine because at least online, it'll "always have been that way".
By default improvised thrown weapons use Dexterity for their attack and damage rolls. Being able to add the Thrown property to improvised weapons lets the Brawler use Strength instead for those rolls.
This pairs well with their Unarmed Strikes and melee attacks with improvised weapons which already use Strength by default, and means the Brawler doesn't need to invest in both Strength and Dex in order to use both melee and ranged improvised weapon attacks.
I don't believe this is correct. Ranged weapons require Dexterity, but all melee weapons require Strength unless they have the Finesse property, even thrown weapons. Thrown weapons only have the option to use Dexterity if they also have the Finesse property. It would only require Dexterity if the DM rules that the improvised weapon you are throwing is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon (like a dart).
That's my interpretation, at least. Here's the thrown property for reference:
Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.
.
An improvised weapon is neither Melee nor Ranged it lacks those categorizations. Improvised weapons also have no weapon properties on their own. By default throwing an improvised weapon does not give it the Thrown Property. It takes a specific feature (such as Improvised Expert) to imbue a weapon or object with a property it doesn't already have.
A DM might treat an improvised weapon as having a Melee/Ranged categorization or as having the thrown property if it resembles an appropriate weapon on the weapons table. But in the case where an improvised weapon doesn't resemble a weapon with the thrown property, throwing an improvised weapon would require Dexterity.
To determine what ability modifier to use with the improvised weapon you default to the generic rules regarding weapon attacks.
Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
Note: This rule isn't specifying the category of weapon used for the attack but the kind of attack being made. 5e is annoyingly unclear with its terminology sometimes.
By default improvised thrown weapons use Dexterity for their attack and damage rolls. Being able to add the Thrown property to improvised weapons lets the Brawler use Strength instead for those rolls.
This pairs well with their Unarmed Strikes and melee attacks with improvised weapons which already use Strength by default, and means the Brawler doesn't need to invest in both Strength and Dex in order to use both melee and ranged improvised weapon attacks.
I don't believe this is correct. Ranged weapons require Dexterity, but all melee weapons require Strength unless they have the Finesse property, even thrown weapons. Thrown weapons only have the option to use Dexterity if they also have the Finesse property. It would only require Dexterity if the DM rules that the improvised weapon you are throwing is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon (like a dart).
That's my interpretation, at least. Here's the thrown property for reference:
Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.
How do people interpret the current rules for throwing improvised weapons? The PHB has “If a character…throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon had a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.”
The Brawler’s Improvised Expert feature allows you to add the light or thrown (range 20/60 ft) properties to 1-handed improvised weapons and reach (10 ft) or thrown (10/30) to 2-handed. As far as I can tell, choosing the thrown property only has a benefit at level 15 when your 2H IWs gain a d12 damage die.
Am I missing something here?
I was baffled by this as well. Here's the benefit: If the DM allows you to treat an improvised weapon as an actual weapon (e.g.,, a log as a greatclub or maul), then you can throw it and still use the better damage.
"Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus. ... If a character ... throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it ... deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet."
So if you're using an improvised weapon that the DM lets you use as a maul, but you throw it, you're still only dealing 1d4 damage since a maul doesn't have the Thrown property. But if you add the Thrown property with the Brawler, you can deal still 2d6 damage.
However, that all assumes that an improvised weapon being treated as an actual weapon is still technically an improvised weapon. Which is also up to DM interpretation because of the vagueness of the writing.
As a certified* Rules Lawyer™️, that's the best rules-as-written interpretation I can muster. *Not actually certified
It just seems so strange, though. With so much focus in the videos and features on removing DM fiat, why does this subclass have so much focus on DM fiat? The DM gets to decide whether you're holding light hammers or dual-wieldable morningstars, and whether you're wielding basically a whip or a maul with reach. I mean, taking with your DM is a great skill to have, but the power gap seems vast for such a decision when there should probably be a set, intended design.
Also, going from 1d4+STR to 1d12+STR+PB on every attack seems like such an absurd power jump. It really needs to be smoothed out.
So RAW, you are right. They state that improvised weapons can be treated as real weapons, but they never state that it loses its improvised weapon status. And, analyzing it, and playtesting it, treating it that way makes the class interesting. There is often not much value in a d4 attack no matter the properties, especially for a fighter who probably has every weapon available.
The reason I think they didn't alter the base definition, is because they like saying something logically correct in the least words possible, even if its intent, or the intuitive reading would be clearer with more words
They wanted to keep improvised weapons fairly open. The base concept being They are either like a weapon, or they are a d4, And using weapons incorrectly makes them improvised if they weren't already, but they didnt want to give the player the ultimate final say. They want the dm to be able to adjust it or make judgement calls.
Which I don't think is working, most players don't know what the improvised weapon heading means in the context of brawler, and lots of dms say they don't consider improvised weapons to be considered weapons. They feel like improvised weapons should always be d4s, or maybe a d8, but never a 2d6. Or generally saying they want more explicit guidance.
But I think the reality is the improvised weapon brawler, and improvised rules in general work best if the DM plays along rather than tries to minimize it. Being ultra specific can be a problem because then the DM often closes off possibilities rather than adapting to the situation/desire of the table. Is the chairv leg a club, or a mace, or a morningstar? The best answer probably is not about the dimensions and size of the chair leg, but what works best in the game/story in that moment to create an interesting encounter. Its also hard to come up with one size fits all answers to any object you can hold in one or two hands
I'll be honest, there's some serious "1984" vibes to the rules. I'm not 100% sure those were the original rules...
The revisions occur and not always across the board, OR they just happen and one day, "oops, scimitars aren't allowed for two weapon fighting and "simple has become "light".
In a way, they can publish whatever the hell they want for the "cross compatibility" and it'll be fine because at least online, it'll "always have been that way".
I got an old pdf of the 2014 phb where its just scanned images, and the rules online are quotes from there. I wonder if the designers have the same interpretation or intent now as before, but the words are accurate
A DM might treat an improvised weapon as having a Melee/Ranged categorization or as having the thrown property if it resembles an appropriate weapon on the weapons table. But in the case where an improvised weapon doesn't resemble a weapon with the thrown property, throwing an improvised weapon would require Dexterity.
To determine what ability modifier to use with the improvised weapon you default to the generic rules regarding weapon attacks.
If, as you stated, an improvised weapon is neither melee nor ranged, it does not have a weapon type and the ability score it uses is undefined. However, if you throw an improvised weapon it must have the thrown property because it is the thrown property that allows you to throw a weapon.
A DM might treat an improvised weapon as having a Melee/Ranged categorization or as having the thrown property if it resembles an appropriate weapon on the weapons table. But in the case where an improvised weapon doesn't resemble a weapon with the thrown property, throwing an improvised weapon would require Dexterity.
To determine what ability modifier to use with the improvised weapon you default to the generic rules regarding weapon attacks.
If, as you stated, an improvised weapon is neither melee nor ranged, it does not have a weapon type and the ability score it uses is undefined. However, if you throw an improvised weapon it must have the thrown property because it is the thrown property that allows you to throw a weapon.
The rules not only do not give the IW the Thrown property, they explicitly say (in the last paragraph of the IW section) that you can throw a weapon that doesn’t have the Thrown property.
That’s what makes it an improvised thrown weapon: it doesn’t have the Thrown property.
So, no, the Thrown property is not what allows you to throw a weapon. The Thrown property is what lets you have better than a 20/60 range and/or other than 1d4 damage, with regular simple/martial proficiency for your Proficiency Bonus, and unlocks special abilities that say they can be used with weapons that have the Thrown property.
You can throw anything (including an IW or a regular weapon that doesn’t have the Thrown property) as an improvised thrown weapon for 20/60 range and 1d4 damage.
The only implied limitation is that the strength of the thrower vs the object’s weight.
I think this subclass (with a few tweaks) would be great for the Barbarian. I think a Fighter subclass for this should have been more focused on unarmed strikes and not improvised weapons. Grappler? yes. Improvised Weapons? no.
And I think it’s an insufficient substitute for the Unarmed fighting style.
I think this subclass (with a few tweaks) would be great for the Barbarian. I think a Fighter subclass for this should have been more focused on unarmed strikes and not improvised weapons. Grappler? yes. Improvised Weapons? no.
And I think it’s an insufficient substitute for the Unarmed fighting style.
they wouldn't have given barbarian the ability to add weapon properties, 6 free masteries, the ability to swap mastery on hit, or the ability to use two masteries at once, Because That would make them the best at weapon mastery. Interestingly, the grapple/unarmed part is where they currently lack.
I do feel the weight or desire for this to be barbarian though, barbarian currently cares the least about what weapon they are using, Its definitely a different vibe. The grapple stuff and unarmed work OK with barb though. Would probably be a very different subclass if designed for batb
I’m honestly so angry lol I made a Barbarian subclass “Path of the Wrestler” that had a lot of the same features but utilized rage to “hulk out.” The core mechanic was improved grappling and unarmed strikes. It has extra advantages when grappling and can grapple one size larger than normal, so go ahead and body slam that Dragon, you maniac. It was basically a Battle Master Barbarian, using superiority dice to control an opponent and set up your teammates for easier hits after laying them with prone or restrained (or prone AND restrained).
I think there’s room for both the Brawler Fighter and an unarmed Barbarian path.
Brawler would benefit from multi-classing into Barbarian, though. Rage would offset the reduced damage of using Improvised Weapons and, if you’re not terribly keen on playing a Fighter who fights in full plate armour with a broken bottle in one hand and a chair leg in the other, offsets taking medium armour (or no armour at all).
I’m honestly so angry lol I made a Barbarian subclass “Path of the Wrestler” that had a lot of the same features but utilized rage to “hulk out.” The core mechanic was improved grappling and unarmed strikes. It has extra advantages when grappling and can grapple one size larger than normal, so go ahead and body slam that Dragon, you maniac. It was basically a Battle Master Barbarian, using superiority dice to control an opponent and set up your teammates for easier hits after laying them with prone or restrained (or prone AND restrained).
I mean I feel flattered but…
I understand these feels.
I spent three weeks developing out a whole additional set of mechanics for brawling and "affray" (boxing, basically) and incorporated stuff for improvised weapons and then "improved" it for the use of Monks.
Playtesting was gloriously wacky, but proved they worked for us. Also gave a foundation for "gladiator matches", which are a thing.
Now they come out with all this and I am just "harrumph. Look at that They completely forgot a broken table leg has a pointy end. Amateurs!"
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I've been pondering what is actually needed for a Grappling build (as either a subclass or feat) or an Improvised Weapon Master (aka Tavern Brawler) Starting with a Grappler.
A Grappler needs a way to make Grapples more likely. 5E did this with Expertise and Rage Advantage. UA7 does not have anything reliable to improve Grapple DC. Here is a summary of options to improve Grapple/Shove DC. I do not think all of these options are needed, but just wanted to list them for completeness.
Instead of the Grapple target choosing STR or DEX save, just change it to STR.
Instead of the Shove target choosing STR or DEX save, just change it to DEX.
DC = 8 + STR + (Athletics Bonus) allowing for Expertise.
DC = 8 + STR + DEX + PB which increases the DC by +2 or so.
Force the target to make the Save/Skill at Disadvantage.
Magic items that increase Grapple DC.
A Grappler needs a way to Grapple Huge creatures. 5E has this with Duregar and Rune Knight and Enlarge.
A Grappling build (like all optimized builds ) wants a use for the Bonus Action.
A Grappler wants a Grapple to deal damage. 5E had this with Battlerager. UA7 Brawler has this with Grappling Expert.
I'll close out my thoughts on Grappling with a suggestion for fun. Improvised Shield: While not wearing a Shield and Grappling a creature, you have a +2 Bonus to your AC. If this bonus to your AC would cause an attack to miss, the attack hits a creature you are grappling instead.
Now what does a Tavern Brawler need?
Proficiency with Improvised Weapons and/or Unarmed Strikes
Weapon Mastery or Equivalent, which UA7 Brawler has.
A use for the Bonus Action. (A want, not a need.)
Ways to change the damage type from Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing to something that can't be resisted. Note the Magic Items that enhance Improvised Weapons could cover this.
Simple clear rules on Improvised Weapons (Light/Thrown/Two-handed). Even something as simple as "Improvised Weapons 2 sizes smaller than you or smaller are Light, have the Finesse property, can be thrown, and have [small dice]. Improvised Weapons 1 size smaller than you or larger are two-handed and have [large dice]."
Damage with Improvised Weapons should be comparable to Martial Weapons. The standard formula for damage is Modifier + Weapon Dice. But it could be any combination of STR, DEX, PB, and Dice. Cycling through the combinations.
STR + DEX is likely to be 5 damage early game, but could be 6 for a minmaxer. That scales up to an unlikely max of 11. Which is comparable to a 1d4 weapon at level 1 and 1d10 at level 20.
STR + PB starts at 5 (similar to 1d4) and scales to 12 (similar to 1d12). Ditto for DEX + PB.
PB + Weapon Dice starts below the standard formula, but gradually catches up.
The STR + PB + Dice of UA7 Brawler Lvl 15 Ability has already been noted as a significant boost in damage.
STR + DEX + Dice is interesting to me. Under most cases it is +2 damage like Fighting Style: Dueling. But it could allow for STR based Monk that is even more of a glass cannon. Or STR+DEX based Barbarian for a non-glass cannon.
Fun creativity! If a Brawler shows up in a game I DM, I'll plan on "Whenever you use a new Improvised Weapon that you have never used before, you get Heroic Inspiration." That may work for homebrew, but may not be appropriate for the game as a whole.
This subclass and the new magic items for unarmed strikes and improvised weapons that are """""supposed""""" to appear in a future UA (it wouldn't surprise me if WotC simply ignored their own announcements), makes me think that there may be new rules for equipment damage/destruction (I don't know if this was a thing in previous editions), or something like a durability gauge/bar that indicates how much before that weapon/magic focus breaks.
This subclass and the new magic items for unarmed strikes and improvised weapons that are """""supposed""""" to appear in a future UA (it wouldn't surprise me if WotC simply ignored their own announcements), makes me think that there may be new rules for equipment damage/destruction (I don't know if this was a thing in previous editions), or something like a durability gauge/bar that indicates how much before that weapon/magic focus breaks.
I very very very very much doubt it.
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This subclass and the new magic items for unarmed strikes and improvised weapons that are """""supposed""""" to appear in a future UA (it wouldn't surprise me if WotC simply ignored their own announcements), makes me think that there may be new rules for equipment damage/destruction (I don't know if this was a thing in previous editions), or something like a durability gauge/bar that indicates how much before that weapon/magic focus breaks.
I very very very very much doubt it.
Agreed. No way do they do that. Too much bookkeeping.
By default improvised thrown weapons use Dexterity for their attack and damage rolls.
Being able to add the Thrown property to improvised weapons lets the Brawler use Strength instead for those rolls.
This pairs well with their Unarmed Strikes and melee attacks with improvised weapons which already use Strength by default, and means the Brawler doesn't need to invest in both Strength and Dex in order to use both melee and ranged improvised weapon attacks.
Of course! I thought there was something I had missed.
It does still feel as though there need to be some clearer rules for Improvised Weapons presented.
My point is most Jackie Chan’s movie characters aren’t Monks. Those characters aren’t real either. We have examples of actual dnd monks in movies like Five Deadly Venoms, Hero, Crouching Tiger, Kung Fu Hustle and Iron Monkey are good examples. I might give you Drunken Master since drinking alcohol actually made him better, but even that didn’t really explore the mysticism of a D&D monk.
I don't believe this is correct. Ranged weapons require Dexterity, but all melee weapons require Strength unless they have the Finesse property, even thrown weapons. Thrown weapons only have the option to use Dexterity if they also have the Finesse property. It would only require Dexterity if the DM rules that the improvised weapon you are throwing is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon (like a dart).
That's my interpretation, at least. Here's the thrown property for reference:
I was baffled by this as well. Here's the benefit: If the DM allows you to treat an improvised weapon as an actual weapon (e.g.,, a log as a greatclub or maul), then you can throw it and still use the better damage.
So if you're using an improvised weapon that the DM lets you use as a maul, but you throw it, you're still only dealing 1d4 damage since a maul doesn't have the Thrown property. But if you add the Thrown property with the Brawler, you can deal still 2d6 damage.
However, that all assumes that an improvised weapon being treated as an actual weapon is still technically an improvised weapon. Which is also up to DM interpretation because of the vagueness of the writing.
As a certified* Rules Lawyer™️, that's the best rules-as-written interpretation I can muster.
*Not actually certified
It just seems so strange, though. With so much focus in the videos and features on removing DM fiat, why does this subclass have so much focus on DM fiat? The DM gets to decide whether you're holding light hammers or dual-wieldable morningstars, and whether you're wielding basically a whip or a maul with reach. I mean, taking with your DM is a great skill to have, but the power gap seems vast for such a decision when there should probably be a set, intended design.
Also, going from 1d4+STR to 1d12+STR+PB on every attack seems like such an absurd power jump. It really needs to be smoothed out.
So RAW, you are right. They state that improvised weapons can be treated as real weapons, but they never state that it loses its improvised weapon status. And, analyzing it, and playtesting it, treating it that way makes the class interesting. There is often not much value in a d4 attack no matter the properties, especially for a fighter who probably has every weapon available.
The reason I think they didn't alter the base definition, is because they like saying something logically correct in the least words possible, even if its intent, or the intuitive reading would be clearer with more words
They wanted to keep improvised weapons fairly open. The base concept being They are either like a weapon, or they are a d4, And using weapons incorrectly makes them improvised if they weren't already, but they didnt want to give the player the ultimate final say. They want the dm to be able to adjust it or make judgement calls.
Which I don't think is working, most players don't know what the improvised weapon heading means in the context of brawler, and lots of dms say they don't consider improvised weapons to be considered weapons. They feel like improvised weapons should always be d4s, or maybe a d8, but never a 2d6. Or generally saying they want more explicit guidance.
But I think the reality is the improvised weapon brawler, and improvised rules in general work best if the DM plays along rather than tries to minimize it. Being ultra specific can be a problem because then the DM often closes off possibilities rather than adapting to the situation/desire of the table. Is the chairv leg a club, or a mace, or a morningstar? The best answer probably is not about the dimensions and size of the chair leg, but what works best in the game/story in that moment to create an interesting encounter. Its also hard to come up with one size fits all answers to any object you can hold in one or two hands
I'll be honest, there's some serious "1984" vibes to the rules. I'm not 100% sure those were the original rules...
The revisions occur and not always across the board, OR they just happen and one day, "oops, scimitars aren't allowed for two weapon fighting and "simple has become "light".
In a way, they can publish whatever the hell they want for the "cross compatibility" and it'll be fine because at least online, it'll "always have been that way".
An improvised weapon is neither Melee nor Ranged it lacks those categorizations. Improvised weapons also have no weapon properties on their own. By default throwing an improvised weapon does not give it the Thrown Property. It takes a specific feature (such as Improvised Expert) to imbue a weapon or object with a property it doesn't already have.
A DM might treat an improvised weapon as having a Melee/Ranged categorization or as having the thrown property if it resembles an appropriate weapon on the weapons table. But in the case where an improvised weapon doesn't resemble a weapon with the thrown property, throwing an improvised weapon would require Dexterity.
To determine what ability modifier to use with the improvised weapon you default to the generic rules regarding weapon attacks.
The most generic rule regarding which ability modifier to use: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#ModifierstotheRoll
Note: This rule isn't specifying the category of weapon used for the attack but the kind of attack being made. 5e is annoyingly unclear with its terminology sometimes.
I got an old pdf of the 2014 phb where its just scanned images, and the rules online are quotes from there. I wonder if the designers have the same interpretation or intent now as before, but the words are accurate
If, as you stated, an improvised weapon is neither melee nor ranged, it does not have a weapon type and the ability score it uses is undefined. However, if you throw an improvised weapon it must have the thrown property because it is the thrown property that allows you to throw a weapon.
The rules not only do not give the IW the Thrown property, they explicitly say (in the last paragraph of the IW section) that you can throw a weapon that doesn’t have the Thrown property.
That’s what makes it an improvised thrown weapon: it doesn’t have the Thrown property.
So, no, the Thrown property is not what allows you to throw a weapon. The Thrown property is what lets you have better than a 20/60 range and/or other than 1d4 damage, with regular simple/martial proficiency for your Proficiency Bonus, and unlocks special abilities that say they can be used with weapons that have the Thrown property.
You can throw anything (including an IW or a regular weapon that doesn’t have the Thrown property) as an improvised thrown weapon for 20/60 range and 1d4 damage.
The only implied limitation is that the strength of the thrower vs the object’s weight.
I think this subclass (with a few tweaks) would be great for the Barbarian. I think a Fighter subclass for this should have been more focused on unarmed strikes and not improvised weapons. Grappler? yes. Improvised Weapons? no.
And I think it’s an insufficient substitute for the Unarmed fighting style.
they wouldn't have given barbarian the ability to add weapon properties, 6 free masteries, the ability to swap mastery on hit, or the ability to use two masteries at once, Because That would make them the best at weapon mastery. Interestingly, the grapple/unarmed part is where they currently lack.
I do feel the weight or desire for this to be barbarian though, barbarian currently cares the least about what weapon they are using, Its definitely a different vibe. The grapple stuff and unarmed work OK with barb though. Would probably be a very different subclass if designed for batb
I’m honestly so angry lol I made a Barbarian subclass “Path of the Wrestler” that had a lot of the same features but utilized rage to “hulk out.” The core mechanic was improved grappling and unarmed strikes. It has extra advantages when grappling and can grapple one size larger than normal, so go ahead and body slam that Dragon, you maniac. It was basically a Battle Master Barbarian, using superiority dice to control an opponent and set up your teammates for easier hits after laying them with prone or restrained (or prone AND restrained).
I mean I feel flattered but…
I think there’s room for both the Brawler Fighter and an unarmed Barbarian path.
Brawler would benefit from multi-classing into Barbarian, though. Rage would offset the reduced damage of using Improvised Weapons and, if you’re not terribly keen on playing a Fighter who fights in full plate armour with a broken bottle in one hand and a chair leg in the other, offsets taking medium armour (or no armour at all).
I understand these feels.
I spent three weeks developing out a whole additional set of mechanics for brawling and "affray" (boxing, basically) and incorporated stuff for improvised weapons and then "improved" it for the use of Monks.
Playtesting was gloriously wacky, but proved they worked for us. Also gave a foundation for "gladiator matches", which are a thing.
Now they come out with all this and I am just "harrumph. Look at that They completely forgot a broken table leg has a pointy end. Amateurs!"
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I've been pondering what is actually needed for a Grappling build (as either a subclass or feat) or an Improvised Weapon Master (aka Tavern Brawler) Starting with a Grappler.
I'll close out my thoughts on Grappling with a suggestion for fun. Improvised Shield: While not wearing a Shield and Grappling a creature, you have a +2 Bonus to your AC. If this bonus to your AC would cause an attack to miss, the attack hits a creature you are grappling instead.
Now what does a Tavern Brawler need?
This subclass and the new magic items for unarmed strikes and improvised weapons that are """""supposed""""" to appear in a future UA (it wouldn't surprise me if WotC simply ignored their own announcements), makes me think that there may be new rules for equipment damage/destruction (I don't know if this was a thing in previous editions), or something like a durability gauge/bar that indicates how much before that weapon/magic focus breaks.
I very very very very much doubt it.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Agreed. No way do they do that. Too much bookkeeping.
Improvised weapons are 1D4 damage (PHB) and jump to 1D12 at level 15 (Playtest 7)
How?