STONE SHAPE: Until the spell ends, all damage caused to the target that is FORCE, BLUDGEONING, PIERCING AND SLASHING that DOES NOT EXCEED THE THRESHOLD OF 15 DAMAGE WILL BE NEGATED.
Additionally, the target gains advantage on CONSTITUTION saving throws and gains disadvantage on DEXTERITY saving throws.
It's stoneskin. Stone Shape is another spell entirely, which is why I felt the need to clarify this.
Yes, sorry for making a mistake, I was a bit distracted, that and the fact that I don't speak English well enough, my bad, and thank you very much for the correction. ;)
I come with a proposal for Goodberry to see if you think it's okay:
Goodberry Casting Time: 1 min TWO berries appear in your hand, they are infused with magic for the duration of the spell and will be significantly more bigger than usual. A creature can use its action to eat a berry, or extend the duration until the start of your next turn if you try to feed another who is unconscious (Preventing him from having his reaction available and potentially being interrupted in the process). Eating a berry restores 3 hit points, and the berry provides enough nutrients to sustain a creature for a day. A creature cannot consume more than two berries (One if it is tiny, three if it is large or higher) in a period of less than 12 hours. The berries lose their potency if they have not been consumed within 24 hours of the casting of this spell. At higher levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of level 3 or higher, for every 2 slots higher than level 1, you create an additional berry and the number of hit points each heals increases by 4.
This modification would allow the daily magic cost to be significantly increased to support the entire party of adventurers (Usually 2-3 1st level spell slots, if the party DOES NOT have beasts of burden or other NPCs.), but it would NOT recharge the cost. in material resources to any Druid or ranger who wants to support himself. (And maybe a companion, like another adventurer or a Beastmasters' creature.) Since it should be logical and possible that they can self-sustain themselves, anywhere if they decide to sacrifice part of their daily magical energy; no matter how unlikely it may be there to sustain others (Like a shipwreck, desert, contaminated areas, etc.).
This wouldn't rule out using the spell to bypass the survival part of an adventure, but the higher magic cost would make it fairer to NOT easily disable that. (It would also reduce the value of choosing Magical Initiate from the druid's list to avoid carrying or relying on rations, making it more likely to choose other spells with that feat from that list.)
You will also be limited by the amount of berries you can consume, so I would avoid overexploiting the spell in the event of a massive creation of these with all the spaces left over before a long rest. In compensation for this (So that at higher levels you can take better advantage of the limitation per character on the amount of berries they can eat per day, therefore what it heals.) and the decrease in total healing per space of 1st level, adds spell scaling, which scales somewhat better than other healing spells:
Edit: Added a variant to the scaling (and calculation of both variants if what heals and its scaling are replaced by d6):
Goodberry Casting Time: 1 min TWO berries appear in your hand, they are infused with magic for the duration of the spell and will be significantly more bigger than usual. A creature can use its action to eat a berry, or extend the duration until the start of your next turn if you try to feed another who is unconscious (Preventing him from having his reaction available and potentially being interrupted in the process). Eating a berry restores 3 hit points, and the berry provides enough nutrients to sustain a creature for a day. A creature cannot consume more than two berries (One if it is tiny, three if it is large or higher) in a period of less than 12 hours. The berries lose their potency if they have not been consumed within 24 hours of the casting of this spell. At higher levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of level 4 or higher, for every 3 slots higher than level 1, both the number of berries and the life points they heal are doubled.
And the amount of life points that it heals will be the following:
Edit 2: Added other variant, which feeds even fewer creatures at level 1 (Usually need 3-4 1st level spell slots for ALL party of adventurers, no count NPC and others.) , and the healing is variable, 1d4 in level 1:
Goodberry Casting Time: 1 min THREE berries appear in your hand, they are infused with magic for the duration of the spell and will be significantly more bigger than usual. A creature can use its action to eat a berry, or extend the duration until the start of your next turn if you try to feed another who is unconscious (Preventing him from having his reaction available and potentially being interrupted in the process). Eating a berry restores 1d4 hit points, and the berry provides HALF of the nutrients to sustain a creature for a day. A creature cannot consume more than THREE berries (TWO if it is tiny, FOUR if it is large or higher) in a period of less than 12 hours. The berries lose their potency if they have not been consumed within 24 hours of the casting of this spell. At higher levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of level 5 or higher, for every 4 slots higher than level 1, both the number of berries and the dice they heal are doubled.
And the amount of life points that it heals will be the following:
In the name of all that's holy if I see one more person whining about how spellcasters are overpowered... yes, martials are reliant on magic weapons and items to balance the power gap between them and spellcasters. No, you should not be nerfing magic in a FANTASY game because the sword bois are unhappy that their pointy sticks can't conjure demiplanes. Don't take other people's fun away just because you can't be bothered to learn magic - the limiter to magic is that it takes a LOT of skill to learn all the spells and effectively use them in combat. the benefit of martials is their simplicity - you just get to hit things until they die, which is inherently fun. relax.
I'm with you on some of these, but over my dead body will wall of force and forcecage be broken by STRENGTH! These two spells are the only answer in all of magic to an impossibly strong brute of an enemy, and are designed to support the core fantasy of the spellcaster - solving problems through ingenuity, rather than physical ability. These are among the most central and iconic spells in the history of dnd, and you want to make them completely useless? Absolutely not.
Likewise, banishment through your system would require 10 failed saves in order to do the thing it's supposed to do - banish things that shouldn't be here. It's literally in the name, and you want to make that useless too?
It sounds like you're upset because your pointy sticks don't alter the fabric of reality, and you're lashing out at characters (and players) clever enough to use magic. Don't yuck people's yum just because you don't understand how magic works.
Goodberry Casting Time: 1 min TWO berries appear in your hand, they are infused with magic for the duration of the spell and will be significantly more bigger than usual. A creature can use its action to eat a berry, or extend the duration until the start of your next turn if you try to feed another who is unconscious (Preventing him from having his reaction available and potentially being interrupted in the process). Eating a berry restores 3 hit points, and the berry provides enough nutrients to sustain a creature for a day. A creature cannot consume more than two berries (One if it is tiny, three if it is large or higher) in a period of less than 12 hours. The berries lose their potency if they have not been consumed within 24 hours of the casting of this spell. At higher levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of level 3 or higher, for every 2 slots higher than level 1, you create an additional berry and the number of hit points each heals increases by 4.
This effectively makes Goodberry useless, except for rest-casting. Personally I have had it with "Goodberry trivializes survival aspects of the game" because you know what else trivializes survival aspects of the game? The outlander background, and how cheap rations are. 5e is not a resource management game, it is a role playing game. If you want to make 5e a resource management game, then buy & use one of the many HB rule sets on DMsGuild that add a bunch of rules to make 5e into a resource management game. Very few tables bother to track rations, food, or water. If you read the AD&D books the main reason tracking of resources exists is to force adventurers to spend their money in order to give them an incentive to adventure and keep adventuring. So unless you are keeping your party on a shoe string budget such that they are in danger of not being able to feed and house themselves don't worry about it. Tracking food is boring, and most parties these days adventure for the story not out of fear their characters will starve to death otherwise.
The most annoying thing about Goodberry is rest casting, the only thing that needs to be changed is the duration. Have them last for 8 hours, and add in rules to Resting to block rest casting, and we're good.
It sounds like you're upset because your pointy sticks don't alter the fabric of reality, and you're lashing out at characters (and players) clever enough to use magic. Don't yuck people's yum just because you don't understand how magic works.
D&D is a social game. There is exactly one way to lose at D&D: Failing to enable the rest of your party to have fun.
Spellcasters just cancelling combat with 1 spell is not fun, why even bother having any combat at all? All the players who complain when the DM "counters their build" so that combat actually lasts 3-4 rounds and other people in the party actually get to contribute should just go and play BG3 where they can hog the spotlight all they want or make some broken build that trivializes the game in a format where doing so doesn't ruin the fun of everyone else at the table.
The problem isn't "spellcasters get to do cool things". The problem is spellcasters make the game boring for everyone else by hogging the spotlight and solving everything single-handedly.
the limiter to magic is that it takes a LOT of skill to learn all the spells and effectively use them in combat. the benefit of martials is their simplicity - you just get to hit things until they die, which is inherently fun. relax.
With all the guides available on the internet, and the proliferation of generally useful spells - like Spiritual Guardians, Magic Missile, Dissonant Whispers, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Polymorph, Healing Word, Conjure Animals - there is very little skill required to play a spellcaster. Here I'll write you a quick guide and you can see how trivial they are to play:
Bard: Is a party member unconscious? - Yes = cast Healing Word on them then can Vicious Mockery, Are multiple enemies in a group? - Yes = cast Hypnotic Pattern, No = cast Dissonant Whispers. Is there only 1 enemy in the combat? Yes = cast Banishment, you win! Cleric: Is a party member unconscious? - Yes = cast Healing Word, then Toll the Dead, Are there multiple enemies? - Yes = cast Spiritual Guardians, No = cast Spiritual Weapon. Is there only 1 enemy in the combat? Yes = cast Banishment, you win! Druid: Is a party member unconscious? - Yes = cast Healing Word, then Thorn Whip, No = cast Conjure Animals, Is there only 1 enemy in the combat? Yes = cast Polymorph, you win! Wizard: Are multiple enemies in a group? - No = cast Magic Missile, Yes - are they weak or already hurt? Yes = Fireball, No = Hypnotic Pattern. Is there only 1 enemy in the combat? Yes = cast Wall of Force, you win! Sorcerer: See Wizard Warlock: Are you next to an enemy? - Yes = cast Thunderstep, No = cast a Tasha's summon spell. Are you out of spellslots? Yes = cast Eldritch Blast.
Sure those aren't 100% optimal strategies but they are close enough to the optimal that across a typical campaign you won't notice being less effective than someone who is playing optimally.
I'm with you on some of these, but over my dead body will wall of force and forcecage be broken by STRENGTH! These two spells are the only answer in all of magic to an impossibly strong brute of an enemy, and are designed to support the core fantasy of the spellcaster - solving problems through ingenuity, rather than physical ability. These are among the most central and iconic spells in the history of dnd, and you want to make them completely useless? Absolutely not.
There is no ingenuity to pushing your no save instant win button. Ingenuity is about working around the limitations of your tools, not about having tools without limitations.
I would also add that it takes no more effort for spellcasters to pick up spells than it does for fighters to get good at fighting. Perhaps if there was an actual process spellcasters had to go through to acquire their magic, that would be something. But the game rules as they are just give them the knowledge for free. The closest thing we see to an actual process being involved in acquiring spells is the wizard and putting spells they find into their spellbook, but they still get six in their book for free at the beginning and get two more for free in their book with each level up.
Worse than that in 2024 PHB it looks like every caster & half caster is getting 2 spells per spell level known for free from their subclass. Honestly, I like how restricted 2014 sorcerer is in its number of spells known. It really makes you put thought into which spells you pick up, and prevents you from "being able to do it all". 2014 Sorcerer forces you to be good at somethings and not others, which makes it much much much more interesting than all the casters where the whole party is just sitting around for 10 minutes while they read through all of their spells to find the one that solves the current problem the party is facing.
Goodberry Casting Time: 1 min TWO berries appear in your hand, they are infused with magic for the duration of the spell and will be significantly more bigger than usual. A creature can use its action to eat a berry, or extend the duration until the start of your next turn if you try to feed another who is unconscious (Preventing him from having his reaction available and potentially being interrupted in the process). Eating a berry restores 3 hit points, and the berry provides enough nutrients to sustain a creature for a day. A creature cannot consume more than two berries (One if it is tiny, three if it is large or higher) in a period of less than 12 hours. The berries lose their potency if they have not been consumed within 24 hours of the casting of this spell. At higher levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of level 3 or higher, for every 2 slots higher than level 1, you create an additional berry and the number of hit points each heals increases by 4.
This effectively makes Goodberry useless, except for rest-casting. Personally I have had it with "Goodberry trivializes survival aspects of the game" because you know what else trivializes survival aspects of the game? The outlander background, and how cheap rations are. 5e is not a resource management game, it is a role playing game. If you want to make 5e a resource management game, then buy & use one of the many HB rule sets on DMsGuild that add a bunch of rules to make 5e into a resource management game. Very few tables bother to track rations, food, or water. If you read the AD&D books the main reason tracking of resources exists is to force adventurers to spend their money in order to give them an incentive to adventure and keep adventuring. So unless you are keeping your party on a shoe string budget such that they are in danger of not being able to feed and house themselves don't worry about it. Tracking food is boring, and most parties these days adventure for the story not out of fear their characters will starve to death otherwise.
The most annoying thing about Goodberry is rest casting, the only thing that needs to be changed is the duration. Have them last for 8 hours, and add in rules to Resting to block rest casting, and we're good.
I am not sure I agree. I'd say in many campaigns survival aspects are basically ignored. But, it is an aspect of the game and rules and a level 1 spell trivializing it given other campaigns may focus on it seems unwise. GMs can always ban spells in certain campaigns etc. But the DM can fix it isn't a satisfying answer imo. It is mainly a healing spell, I do not think it would break the spell to say it can only feed one person, the person must eat at least 6 of the berries to get enough food for one day, if spread out more than that assume it reduces your need to eat that day by 1/3rd.
I would also add that it takes no more effort for spellcasters to pick up spells than it does for fighters to get good at fighting. Perhaps if there was an actual process spellcasters had to go through to acquire their magic, that would be something. But the game rules as they are just give them the knowledge for free. The closest thing we see to an actual process being involved in acquiring spells is the wizard and putting spells they find into their spellbook, but they still get six in their book for free at the beginning and get two more for free in their book with each level up.
Worse than that in 2024 PHB it looks like every caster & half caster is getting 2 spells per spell level known for free from their subclass. Honestly, I like how restricted 2014 sorcerer is in its number of spells known. It really makes you put thought into which spells you pick up, and prevents you from "being able to do it all". 2014 Sorcerer forces you to be good at somethings and not others, which makes it much much much more interesting than all the casters where the whole party is just sitting around for 10 minutes while they read through all of their spells to find the one that solves the current problem the party is facing.
I did not necessarily have a issue with how many spells the sorcerers got. I did have an issue that preparation casters who could change their spells daily got more. It seems obvious to me that a person with a fixed known list all else being equal should know more spells than another caster can prepare and change daily. Sure, if they made the sorcerer some ridiculous casting juggernaut compared to other casting classes less known spells makes some sense. But at best they are marginally better casters than wizards. so sure, cap a sorcerer at 15 known spells at level 20. Just make sure the cleric/wizard etc can only prepare 12.
I am not sure I agree. I'd say in many campaigns survival aspects are basically ignored. But, it is an aspect of the game and rules and a level 1 spell trivializing it given other campaigns may focus on it seems unwise. GMs can always ban spells in certain campaigns etc. But the DM can fix it isn't a satisfying answer imo. It is mainly a healing spell, I do not think it would break the spell to say it can only feed one person, the person must eat at least 6 of the berries to get enough food for one day, if spread out more than that assume it reduces your need to eat that day by 1/3rd.
It wouldn't break the spell, but it also wouldn't make the survival aspect of the game any more of a challenge. One character in the party with the Outlander background can feed the whole party without expending any resources. One character with a halfway decent Strength score can carry enough dried rations for the party for a whole month in their backpack. At 5th level Tiny Hut and Create Food and Water trivialize it even more. Diseases don't exist in 5e really, and even if they did they are trivial to cure using Lay on Hand or Lesser Restoration. Any source of water can be made safe to drink it just a 1st level ritual spell. A bunch of species don't even need to sleep (Elves, Robots), and several don't need to eat (Warforged, Reborn, Autognome), there are loads of class features that also reduce or eliminate diseases, sleep, or needing to eat. You need a whole book of additional rules in order to make survival an actual challenge in 5e.
I am not sure I agree. I'd say in many campaigns survival aspects are basically ignored. But, it is an aspect of the game and rules and a level 1 spell trivializing it given other campaigns may focus on it seems unwise. GMs can always ban spells in certain campaigns etc. But the DM can fix it isn't a satisfying answer imo. It is mainly a healing spell, I do not think it would break the spell to say it can only feed one person, the person must eat at least 6 of the berries to get enough food for one day, if spread out more than that assume it reduces your need to eat that day by 1/3rd.
It wouldn't break the spell, but it also wouldn't make the survival aspect of the game any more of a challenge. One character in the party with the Outlander background can feed the whole party without expending any resources. One character with a halfway decent Strength score can carry enough dried rations for the party for a whole month in their backpack. At 5th level Tiny Hut and Create Food and Water trivialize it even more. Diseases don't exist in 5e really, and even if they did they are trivial to cure using Lay on Hand or Lesser Restoration. Any source of water can be made safe to drink it just a 1st level ritual spell. A bunch of species don't even need to sleep (Elves, Robots), and several don't need to eat (Warforged, Reborn, Autognome), there are loads of class features that also reduce or eliminate diseases, sleep, or needing to eat. You need a whole book of additional rules in order to make survival an actual challenge in 5e.
They are getting rid of background features like that, your background feature is a feat and stat choices now. Which i am happy with as I thought Outlander and a couple other backgrounds had some really poorly designed features. Strength, sure if your DM makes that many rations available to you which they likely would not in a game where survival is a focus. At 5th level okay, but its your best spell of the day for create food, and yes Leomonds probably needs a nerf as discussed in this thread. 7th+ well basic survival probably should not be a big issue for the party anymore anyways and now there are more exotic concerns. Unless everyone takes those races sleep will remain a concern, and most of those spells comes with some kind of cost. Purifying water, sure that is done easy but generally I think its the getting the water part that is hard in most games. And yes there are class abilities that will make it easier, but they rarely flat out remove the concern.
Why would getting water be hard? Unless you are in a desolate desert, there is water everywhere - stab a tree and water comes out, mush up some plants and water comes out, dig a hole and water comes out (Mold Earth cantrip makes this trivial), kill a creature and water comes out. If there are enemies to kill or NPCs to talk to then there is food & water pretty readily available, unless you're on one of the outerplanes (which is pretty unlikely if your party is level 1-4). Unless the game starts with your party being stripped naked and dumped on an uninhabited island, it will harder for the DM to justify survival being a challenge than it will be for the players to overcome it. Even in settings like Fallout or Mad Max, basic survival isn't really a major concern.
Sure you can try to do it with RAW 5e, but why would you try? It would end up so boring because finding food & water is simply one or two Survival checks rolled each day.
If you want to play a survival-based game it would be much better to get a system that is actually designed for it. There are plenty of "Gritty realism" supplements that have things like dysentery/malaria/dengue fever, toxic plants, weather mechanics, alternative carry capacity, alternative resting rules, rules for hunting vs fishing vs gathering roots & tubers.
You're specifically in a subforum about playtest in a thread about revising spells; I'm not sure why you're so adamant that this part of the game doesn't need and/or shouldn't be improved.
Regardless of what you feel, exploration and resource management (eating, drinking, travel time, encumbrance, etc) are part of the base system. Just because they're poorly implemented doesn't mean they don't exist and shouldn't be engaged with. Discussing how we'd like to see them made better is the whole point of this forum. While I don't use them often, I've definitely employed (with homebrew fixes) the rules during adventures I've run in a frozen wilderness sandbox adventure, and whilst on a pirate sailing expedition. I hated the Sailor and Outlander backgrounds, as well as Goodberry, so welcome the backgrounds being changed and hope Goodberry is altered (it also gives the Ranger more design space to be an asset).
The fantasy Goodberry is representing is Lembas bread sustaining someone much longer than it should, but that still required the forethought to acquire it and carry it. Current Goodberry doesn't fit that fantasy as it effectively achieves the effect of the 3rd level spell Create Food/Water at 1st level with no real trade off, and also provides a bizarre emergency recovery tool for the whole party (but that's because 5e has no consequence for being knocked unconscious - even a level of exhaustion would be better).
I'd rather Goodberry just enchant any edible food you already have so that a bite sustains you the whole day. 1 day of rations lasts an entire adventure but you still need the rations or one person foraging. Means during exploration the party can focus on other tasks than foraging or in a desolate environment it becomes feasible to sustain the group.
I'd rather Goodberry just enchant any edible food you already have so that a bite sustains you the whole day. 1 day of rations lasts an entire adventure but you still need the rations or one person foraging. Means during exploration the party can focus on other tasks than foraging or in a desolate environment it becomes feasible to sustain the group.
But see this is part of my problem with these complaints, why would you be fine with one day of rations lasting an entire adventure? Why are you ok with the party focusing on other tasks than foraging? If you are playing a resource management game, doing that foraging and being faced with the threat of starvation are the fun of the game. Planning out your route through a desolate environment and spending time to acquire animals, vehicles, and equipment to transport the necessary supplies for a journey through a desolate environment is the fun of the game. I've played resource management video games and they can be a lot of fun. But 5e doesn't have nearly enough mechanical support to make it fun, that's why you're fine with short cuts that allow the players to focus on other tasks - the resource management that is in 5e isn't fun, it is just bean counting in between the more interesting other activities. If it isn't fun then what is wrong with abilities or spells that circumvent it?
Goodberry absolutely needs to be revised because of the ability to stock up 100s of berries with just one day of downtime, not because of its impact on the resource management aspect of the game. There needs to be a whole lot more revisions than just editing one spell, to make the resource management aspect of 5e fun, and honestly, I don't think that is what the creators should spend their time on because resource management isn't what players are looking for when they choose to play D&D. I'd much rather they fix the OP combat-ending spells than add an interesting and fun system of resource management.
That was my "let's keep the spell but make it slightly less bullshit" suggestion.
My actual preferred version of Goodberry is that it doesn't exist. Create Food & Water exists and is a suitably high level spell to be a trade off or at the point in an adventurer's career where they've surpassed the threat of simple starvation.
I also agree the whole sub system 5e uses for exploration and resource management is woefully designed and presented, but I think we differ in views on whether it should be fixed or cut completely. As 5e isn't actually a game, but a system that allows you to create a game, I feel like having the option to engage with good exploration/ resource management mechanics should be an acceptable expectation. Especially when the system claims to offer that option.
Goodberry used to require fresh berries as a material component, which severely limited its usability, as most of the time when you're in a survival situation fresh berries aren't available.
Why would getting water be hard? Unless you are in a desolate desert, there is water everywhere - stab a tree and water comes out, mush up some plants and water comes out, dig a hole and water comes out (Mold Earth cantrip makes this trivial), kill a creature and water comes out. If there are enemies to kill or NPCs to talk to then there is food & water pretty readily available, unless you're on one of the outerplanes (which is pretty unlikely if your party is level 1-4). Unless the game starts with your party being stripped naked and dumped on an uninhabited island, it will harder for the DM to justify survival being a challenge than it will be for the players to overcome it. Even in settings like Fallout or Mad Max, basic survival isn't really a major concern.
Sure you can try to do it with RAW 5e, but why would you try? It would end up so boring because finding food & water is simply one or two Survival checks rolled each day.
If you want to play a survival-based game it would be much better to get a system that is actually designed for it. There are plenty of "Gritty realism" supplements that have things like dysentery/malaria/dengue fever, toxic plants, weather mechanics, alternative carry capacity, alternative resting rules, rules for hunting vs fishing vs gathering roots & tubers.
Tell me you've never been in the woods without saying so. Stab a tree and water comes out? Squish a few leaves and water comes out? Like wringing out a wet towel? This is kinda beyond rediculous.
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Yes, sorry for making a mistake, I was a bit distracted, that and the fact that I don't speak English well enough, my bad, and thank you very much for the correction. ;)
I come with a proposal for Goodberry to see if you think it's okay:
This modification would allow the daily magic cost to be significantly increased to support the entire party of adventurers (Usually 2-3 1st level spell slots, if the party DOES NOT have beasts of burden or other NPCs.), but it would NOT recharge the cost. in material resources to any Druid or ranger who wants to support himself. (And maybe a companion, like another adventurer or a Beastmasters' creature.) Since it should be logical and possible that they can self-sustain themselves, anywhere if they decide to sacrifice part of their daily magical energy; no matter how unlikely it may be there to sustain others (Like a shipwreck, desert, contaminated areas, etc.).
This wouldn't rule out using the spell to bypass the survival part of an adventure, but the higher magic cost would make it fairer to NOT easily disable that. (It would also reduce the value of choosing Magical Initiate from the druid's list to avoid carrying or relying on rations, making it more likely to choose other spells with that feat from that list.)
You will also be limited by the amount of berries you can consume, so I would avoid overexploiting the spell in the event of a massive creation of these with all the spaces left over before a long rest. In compensation for this (So that at higher levels you can take better advantage of the limitation per character on the amount of berries they can eat per day, therefore what it heals.) and the decrease in total healing per space of 1st level, adds spell scaling, which scales somewhat better than other healing spells:
1st level: 2*3 = 6 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: 6)
3rd level: 3*7 = 21 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: 14)
5th level: 4*11= 44 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: 22)
7th level: 5*15 = 75 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: 30)
9th level: 6*19 = 114 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: 38)
If d6 were used for healing and scaling instead:
1st level: 2*1d6 = Avg: 7 Max: 12 Min: 2 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 7 Max: 12 Min: 2)
3rd level: 3*2d6 = Avg: 21 Max: 36 Min: 6 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 14 Max: 24 Min: 4)
5th level: 4*3d6= Avg: 42 Max: 72 Min: 12 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 21 Max: 36 Min: 6)
7th level: 5*4d6 = Avg: 70 Max: 120 Min: 20 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 28 Max: 48 Min: 8)
9th level: 6*5d6 = Avg: 105 Max: 180 Min: 30 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 35 Max: 60 Min: 10)
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Edit: Added a variant to the scaling (and calculation of both variants if what heals and its scaling are replaced by d6):
And the amount of life points that it heals will be the following:
1st level: 2*3 = 6 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: 6)
4th level: 4*6 = 24 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: 12)
7th level: 8*12 = 96 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: 24)
If d6 were used for healing and scaling instead:
1st level: 2*1d6 = Avg: 7 Max: 12 Min: 2 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 7 Max: 12 Min: 2)
4rd level: 4*2d6 = Avg: 28 Max: 48 Min: 8 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 14 Max: 24 Min: 4)
7th level: 8*4d6= Avg: 112 Max: 192 Min: 32 (Max heal for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 28 Max: 48 Min: 8)
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Edit 2: Added other variant, which feeds even fewer creatures at level 1 (Usually need 3-4 1st level spell slots for ALL party of adventurers, no count NPC and others.) , and the healing is variable, 1d4 in level 1:
And the amount of life points that it heals will be the following:
1st level: 3*1d4 = Avg: 7,5 Max: 12 Min: 3 (Max for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 7,5 Max: 12 Min: 3)
5th level: 6*2d4 = Avg: 30 Max: 48 Min: 12 (Max for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 15 Max: 24 Min: 6)
9th level: 12*4d4 = Avg: 120 Max: 192 Min: 48 (Max for 1 Adventurer: Avg: 30 Max: 48 Min: 12)
In the name of all that's holy if I see one more person whining about how spellcasters are overpowered... yes, martials are reliant on magic weapons and items to balance the power gap between them and spellcasters. No, you should not be nerfing magic in a FANTASY game because the sword bois are unhappy that their pointy sticks can't conjure demiplanes. Don't take other people's fun away just because you can't be bothered to learn magic - the limiter to magic is that it takes a LOT of skill to learn all the spells and effectively use them in combat. the benefit of martials is their simplicity - you just get to hit things until they die, which is inherently fun. relax.
I'm with you on some of these, but over my dead body will wall of force and forcecage be broken by STRENGTH! These two spells are the only answer in all of magic to an impossibly strong brute of an enemy, and are designed to support the core fantasy of the spellcaster - solving problems through ingenuity, rather than physical ability. These are among the most central and iconic spells in the history of dnd, and you want to make them completely useless? Absolutely not.
Likewise, banishment through your system would require 10 failed saves in order to do the thing it's supposed to do - banish things that shouldn't be here. It's literally in the name, and you want to make that useless too?
It sounds like you're upset because your pointy sticks don't alter the fabric of reality, and you're lashing out at characters (and players) clever enough to use magic. Don't yuck people's yum just because you don't understand how magic works.
This effectively makes Goodberry useless, except for rest-casting. Personally I have had it with "Goodberry trivializes survival aspects of the game" because you know what else trivializes survival aspects of the game? The outlander background, and how cheap rations are. 5e is not a resource management game, it is a role playing game. If you want to make 5e a resource management game, then buy & use one of the many HB rule sets on DMsGuild that add a bunch of rules to make 5e into a resource management game. Very few tables bother to track rations, food, or water. If you read the AD&D books the main reason tracking of resources exists is to force adventurers to spend their money in order to give them an incentive to adventure and keep adventuring. So unless you are keeping your party on a shoe string budget such that they are in danger of not being able to feed and house themselves don't worry about it. Tracking food is boring, and most parties these days adventure for the story not out of fear their characters will starve to death otherwise.
The most annoying thing about Goodberry is rest casting, the only thing that needs to be changed is the duration. Have them last for 8 hours, and add in rules to Resting to block rest casting, and we're good.
D&D is a social game. There is exactly one way to lose at D&D: Failing to enable the rest of your party to have fun.
Spellcasters just cancelling combat with 1 spell is not fun, why even bother having any combat at all? All the players who complain when the DM "counters their build" so that combat actually lasts 3-4 rounds and other people in the party actually get to contribute should just go and play BG3 where they can hog the spotlight all they want or make some broken build that trivializes the game in a format where doing so doesn't ruin the fun of everyone else at the table.
The problem isn't "spellcasters get to do cool things". The problem is spellcasters make the game boring for everyone else by hogging the spotlight and solving everything single-handedly.
With all the guides available on the internet, and the proliferation of generally useful spells - like Spiritual Guardians, Magic Missile, Dissonant Whispers, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Polymorph, Healing Word, Conjure Animals - there is very little skill required to play a spellcaster. Here I'll write you a quick guide and you can see how trivial they are to play:
Bard: Is a party member unconscious? - Yes = cast Healing Word on them then can Vicious Mockery, Are multiple enemies in a group? - Yes = cast Hypnotic Pattern, No = cast Dissonant Whispers. Is there only 1 enemy in the combat? Yes = cast Banishment, you win!
Cleric: Is a party member unconscious? - Yes = cast Healing Word, then Toll the Dead, Are there multiple enemies? - Yes = cast Spiritual Guardians, No = cast Spiritual Weapon. Is there only 1 enemy in the combat? Yes = cast Banishment, you win!
Druid: Is a party member unconscious? - Yes = cast Healing Word, then Thorn Whip, No = cast Conjure Animals, Is there only 1 enemy in the combat? Yes = cast Polymorph, you win!
Wizard: Are multiple enemies in a group? - No = cast Magic Missile, Yes - are they weak or already hurt? Yes = Fireball, No = Hypnotic Pattern. Is there only 1 enemy in the combat? Yes = cast Wall of Force, you win!
Sorcerer: See Wizard
Warlock: Are you next to an enemy? - Yes = cast Thunderstep, No = cast a Tasha's summon spell. Are you out of spellslots? Yes = cast Eldritch Blast.
Sure those aren't 100% optimal strategies but they are close enough to the optimal that across a typical campaign you won't notice being less effective than someone who is playing optimally.
There is no ingenuity to pushing your no save instant win button. Ingenuity is about working around the limitations of your tools, not about having tools without limitations.
Worse than that in 2024 PHB it looks like every caster & half caster is getting 2 spells per spell level known for free from their subclass. Honestly, I like how restricted 2014 sorcerer is in its number of spells known. It really makes you put thought into which spells you pick up, and prevents you from "being able to do it all". 2014 Sorcerer forces you to be good at somethings and not others, which makes it much much much more interesting than all the casters where the whole party is just sitting around for 10 minutes while they read through all of their spells to find the one that solves the current problem the party is facing.
I am not sure I agree. I'd say in many campaigns survival aspects are basically ignored. But, it is an aspect of the game and rules and a level 1 spell trivializing it given other campaigns may focus on it seems unwise. GMs can always ban spells in certain campaigns etc. But the DM can fix it isn't a satisfying answer imo. It is mainly a healing spell, I do not think it would break the spell to say it can only feed one person, the person must eat at least 6 of the berries to get enough food for one day, if spread out more than that assume it reduces your need to eat that day by 1/3rd.
I did not necessarily have a issue with how many spells the sorcerers got. I did have an issue that preparation casters who could change their spells daily got more. It seems obvious to me that a person with a fixed known list all else being equal should know more spells than another caster can prepare and change daily. Sure, if they made the sorcerer some ridiculous casting juggernaut compared to other casting classes less known spells makes some sense. But at best they are marginally better casters than wizards. so sure, cap a sorcerer at 15 known spells at level 20. Just make sure the cleric/wizard etc can only prepare 12.
It wouldn't break the spell, but it also wouldn't make the survival aspect of the game any more of a challenge. One character in the party with the Outlander background can feed the whole party without expending any resources. One character with a halfway decent Strength score can carry enough dried rations for the party for a whole month in their backpack. At 5th level Tiny Hut and Create Food and Water trivialize it even more. Diseases don't exist in 5e really, and even if they did they are trivial to cure using Lay on Hand or Lesser Restoration. Any source of water can be made safe to drink it just a 1st level ritual spell. A bunch of species don't even need to sleep (Elves, Robots), and several don't need to eat (Warforged, Reborn, Autognome), there are loads of class features that also reduce or eliminate diseases, sleep, or needing to eat. You need a whole book of additional rules in order to make survival an actual challenge in 5e.
They are getting rid of background features like that, your background feature is a feat and stat choices now. Which i am happy with as I thought Outlander and a couple other backgrounds had some really poorly designed features. Strength, sure if your DM makes that many rations available to you which they likely would not in a game where survival is a focus. At 5th level okay, but its your best spell of the day for create food, and yes Leomonds probably needs a nerf as discussed in this thread. 7th+ well basic survival probably should not be a big issue for the party anymore anyways and now there are more exotic concerns. Unless everyone takes those races sleep will remain a concern, and most of those spells comes with some kind of cost. Purifying water, sure that is done easy but generally I think its the getting the water part that is hard in most games. And yes there are class abilities that will make it easier, but they rarely flat out remove the concern.
Why would getting water be hard? Unless you are in a desolate desert, there is water everywhere - stab a tree and water comes out, mush up some plants and water comes out, dig a hole and water comes out (Mold Earth cantrip makes this trivial), kill a creature and water comes out. If there are enemies to kill or NPCs to talk to then there is food & water pretty readily available, unless you're on one of the outerplanes (which is pretty unlikely if your party is level 1-4). Unless the game starts with your party being stripped naked and dumped on an uninhabited island, it will harder for the DM to justify survival being a challenge than it will be for the players to overcome it. Even in settings like Fallout or Mad Max, basic survival isn't really a major concern.
Sure you can try to do it with RAW 5e, but why would you try? It would end up so boring because finding food & water is simply one or two Survival checks rolled each day.
If you want to play a survival-based game it would be much better to get a system that is actually designed for it. There are plenty of "Gritty realism" supplements that have things like dysentery/malaria/dengue fever, toxic plants, weather mechanics, alternative carry capacity, alternative resting rules, rules for hunting vs fishing vs gathering roots & tubers.
You're specifically in a subforum about playtest in a thread about revising spells; I'm not sure why you're so adamant that this part of the game doesn't need and/or shouldn't be improved.
Regardless of what you feel, exploration and resource management (eating, drinking, travel time, encumbrance, etc) are part of the base system. Just because they're poorly implemented doesn't mean they don't exist and shouldn't be engaged with. Discussing how we'd like to see them made better is the whole point of this forum. While I don't use them often, I've definitely employed (with homebrew fixes) the rules during adventures I've run in a frozen wilderness sandbox adventure, and whilst on a pirate sailing expedition. I hated the Sailor and Outlander backgrounds, as well as Goodberry, so welcome the backgrounds being changed and hope Goodberry is altered (it also gives the Ranger more design space to be an asset).
The fantasy Goodberry is representing is Lembas bread sustaining someone much longer than it should, but that still required the forethought to acquire it and carry it. Current Goodberry doesn't fit that fantasy as it effectively achieves the effect of the 3rd level spell Create Food/Water at 1st level with no real trade off, and also provides a bizarre emergency recovery tool for the whole party (but that's because 5e has no consequence for being knocked unconscious - even a level of exhaustion would be better).
I'd rather Goodberry just enchant any edible food you already have so that a bite sustains you the whole day. 1 day of rations lasts an entire adventure but you still need the rations or one person foraging. Means during exploration the party can focus on other tasks than foraging or in a desolate environment it becomes feasible to sustain the group.
But see this is part of my problem with these complaints, why would you be fine with one day of rations lasting an entire adventure? Why are you ok with the party focusing on other tasks than foraging? If you are playing a resource management game, doing that foraging and being faced with the threat of starvation are the fun of the game. Planning out your route through a desolate environment and spending time to acquire animals, vehicles, and equipment to transport the necessary supplies for a journey through a desolate environment is the fun of the game. I've played resource management video games and they can be a lot of fun. But 5e doesn't have nearly enough mechanical support to make it fun, that's why you're fine with short cuts that allow the players to focus on other tasks - the resource management that is in 5e isn't fun, it is just bean counting in between the more interesting other activities. If it isn't fun then what is wrong with abilities or spells that circumvent it?
Goodberry absolutely needs to be revised because of the ability to stock up 100s of berries with just one day of downtime, not because of its impact on the resource management aspect of the game. There needs to be a whole lot more revisions than just editing one spell, to make the resource management aspect of 5e fun, and honestly, I don't think that is what the creators should spend their time on because resource management isn't what players are looking for when they choose to play D&D. I'd much rather they fix the OP combat-ending spells than add an interesting and fun system of resource management.
Sorry, you're right I wasn't very clear.
That was my "let's keep the spell but make it slightly less bullshit" suggestion.
My actual preferred version of Goodberry is that it doesn't exist. Create Food & Water exists and is a suitably high level spell to be a trade off or at the point in an adventurer's career where they've surpassed the threat of simple starvation.
I also agree the whole sub system 5e uses for exploration and resource management is woefully designed and presented, but I think we differ in views on whether it should be fixed or cut completely. As 5e isn't actually a game, but a system that allows you to create a game, I feel like having the option to engage with good exploration/ resource management mechanics should be an acceptable expectation. Especially when the system claims to offer that option.
Also, it's not an either/or. They can fix OP spells and develop the resource management & exploration sub systems.
It's not for a want of time, suggestions, or examples of other systems doing it effectively.
Goodberry used to require fresh berries as a material component, which severely limited its usability, as most of the time when you're in a survival situation fresh berries aren't available.
Tell me you've never been in the woods without saying so. Stab a tree and water comes out? Squish a few leaves and water comes out? Like wringing out a wet towel? This is kinda beyond rediculous.