And? Bards already had CHA since whenever they were first introduced, and the point of Sorcerers and Warlocks was to not be Wizards; ergo different casting stats to reflect a different use of magic. WIS is already being used by Divine and Primal casters, and they also want to distinguish Warlocks from Clerics, so they're left with CHA. Imo, would be better to try and create a whole other INT user, if the numerical distribution of casting stats needs to be addressed at all.
So you'll stop at nothing to keep Int Warlocks out of the game. I don't know why you've chosen this hill to die on but clearly there's no point in discussing anything with you.
"Stop at nothing"? That's a bit much. I disagree with the vehemence you all attack Warlocks using CHA, and I don't see why Warlocks need to be the special case with two options for casting stats. Plus I'm a contrary so-and-so who likes to argue about something completely pointless sometimes. Seems to be a lot of that going around.
No it does not. What you are describing there is basically a mad scientist, who guess what are smart. Insane sure, but also smart.
No, I'm talking about the stereotypical Cthulhu mythos cultist. Whose forbidden knowledge just sounds like gibbering lunacy to anyone who hasn't been similarly driven mad.
Even putting Lovecraftian weirdness aside though, GOOs are not the only example; Archfey also can initiate pacts without a formal agreement, and that's purely in keeping with their fantasy archetype. (Insert the old fey "Hey, can I have your names??" joke here.) Can their pacts involve charismatic dealmaking and negotiation? Absolutely. Can their pacts instead be driven by seeking knowledge from the far corners of the cosmology or interpreting sigils in ancient tomes and ruins instead? YES! And we deserve Warlocks that can represent both archetypes, not just the narrow one we've been stuck with for a decade.
Why do you insist on calling that class a warlock? In any case, the archetypical seeker of forbidden knowledge isn't either smart or wise, they're insane, and charisma works as well as anything for that.
No it does not. What you are describing there is basically a mad scientist, who guess what are smart. Insane sure, but also smart.
No, because mad scientists make their own devices, do their own research. We have a class for that, it's called the Artificer.
Gee really, never knew that. Completely unrelated to a insane person seeking forbidden knowledge on its own. But hey keep thinking charisma makes sense despite all available evidence pointing towards intelligence.
Okay, are we talking about the archetype of the "mad scientist" or "crazy Lovecraftian cultist"? Those are two very different things. Like, if you look at two of the archetypal mad scientist examples in Doctor Jekyll or Victor Frankenstein (fun fact, in the original book he's a drop-out, never gets his doctorate), while they do stuff that is considered morally sketchy, they also did all their own research, testing, etc. Neither one was using "the lost secrets of the ancients" or "visions from the Elder Gods who are dead yet still dream" or what have you. Now, if we go Lovecraftian, then Elder Gods and arcane tomes abound. You can have a mad scientist who's also a cultist, or in a story that crosses magic with science you can call a cultist a mad scientist, but there's a fundamental difference between someone who takes their own research past societal and ethical boundaries and achieves grim results and someone who decides that since standard research isn't working out for them they'll pick up the pocket edition of the Necronomicon and consult it for inspiration.
Well now we are heading down this rabbit hole. In truth D&D mental stats should be Knowledge, Sense, Presence. All Casters should be flexible or spells should have different casting stats possibly both.
Bards- Knowledge, Sense, Or Presence Clerics- Knowledge, Sense Druids- Knowledge, Sense Paladin- Sense, Presence Sorcerer- Constitution, Knowledge, Presence Warlock- Knowledge, Sense, Presence Wizard- Knowledge, Presence
Honestly it could be argued that all casters should have all 3 mental Stats available as casting a stat.
By the way, I've cone to the same conclusion about stats. Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma are very, very vague terms. Redefining them would do good. Although I'd name them Knowledge (society, arcana, nature, mechanics, medicine), Perception (senses, analysis, and insight), and Influence (persuasion, acting, intimidation). Though Presence or Personality would work for the latter as well.
I could accept those renames. Honestly, Wisdom and Charisma don’t describe what they do. Intelligence is mostly just knowledge checks, so renaming it Knowledge just seems simple. I suppose it could be argued that since investigation checks also fall under the stat, Intelligence might be a proper name. Maybe it could be Logic. Wisdom in no form has anything to do with actual Wisdom. After further thought I like Intuition for the stat name. I feel like intuition covers all the checks it does. Influence works as a replacement for Charisma.
Because it's the easy path to power and should thus appeal to a wide variety of people.
It appeals to people who aren't inclined to do things the hard way. Which is not generally an indicator of academic success or talent (mechanically, of course, it's no easier or harder than any other course to power, but since your argument is based on fluff, not mechanics, any response should be equally based on fluff).
It appeals to people who aren't inclined to do things the hard way. Which is not generally an indicator of academic success or talent (mechanically, of course, it's easier or harder than any other course to power, but since your argument is based on fluff, not mechanics, any response should be equally based on fluff).
High intelligence does not mean you're academically diligent or unwilling to take shortcuts.
I mean, by that basis they could just use one casting stat for everyone. But, as people have amply demonstrated here, many players will read a great deal into what casting stat is used.
This is not the same argument; nor did I argue on any basis that casting stat doesn't matter at all. "Reading a great deal into what casting stat is used" is not the same as arguing they can only be distinguishable from each other if they use different casting stats. But, if we're going to appeal to popularity, people have also amply demonstrated that charisma is not paramount enough to the warlocks identity that it itself defines the class in any truly meaningful way.
It appeals to people who aren't inclined to do things the hard way. Which is not generally an indicator of academic success or talent (mechanically, of course, it's easier or harder than any other course to power, but since your argument is based on fluff, not mechanics, any response should be equally based on fluff).
High intelligence does not mean you're academically diligent or unwilling to take shortcuts.
So? As has been reiterated multiple times, Warlocks did not work out how to manipulate the Weave on their own. Either they directly had a Patron show them their spells and powers, or they found something that amounts to "follow these steps to get magic powers". Yes, they might also be academically diligent or have a high IQ, but that's not why they're able to use magic. The broad archetype is that they are able to use magic because they struck a deal with some being for the ability, and the bit about "finding knowledge" that you're framing as a high INT activity reads more like finding an AI program to write a paper for them. It does not take high intelligence to read a book and follow the instructions of drawing certain weird shapes, placing candles in a particular arrangement, and saying some funny words.
Because it's the easy path to power and should thus appeal to a wide variety of people.
It appeals to people who aren't inclined to do things the hard way. Which is not generally an indicator of academic success or talent (mechanically, of course, it's easier or harder than any other course to power, but since your argument is based on fluff, not mechanics, any response should be equally based on fluff).
Desiring an easy path to power (or more broadly "results") is not in any way an indicator of whether someone is or is not academically talented. In other words: academically successful or intelligent individuals don't do the things they do merely based on the difficulty of the task. Frankly though, this is just a weird argument to me; I get arguing that making a deal with questionable beings is a sign of questionable intelligence (though I think it also is a somewhat shaky argument to make), but just blankly stating that desiring the fastest or easiest path to results is a direct indicator that someone is not of bright intelligence is...well, simply unfounded and bizarre to me. Wouldn't an intelligent person look for the most direct route to their end goal?
Because it's the easy path to power and should thus appeal to a wide variety of people.
It appeals to people who aren't inclined to do things the hard way. Which is not generally an indicator of academic success or talent (mechanically, of course, it's easier or harder than any other course to power, but since your argument is based on fluff, not mechanics, any response should be equally based on fluff).
Desiring an easy path to power (or more broadly "results") is not in any way an indicator of whether someone is or is not academically talented. In other words: academically successful or intelligent individuals don't do the things they do merely based on the difficulty of the task. Frankly though, this is just a weird argument to me; I get arguing that making a deal with questionable beings is a sign of questionable intelligence (though I think it also is a somewhat shaky argument to make), but just blankly stating that desiring the fastest or easiest path to results is a direct indicator that someone is not of bright intelligence is...well, simply unfounded and bizarre to me. Wouldn't an intelligent person look for the most direct route to their end goal?
lol, no. An intelligent person would be able to predict the possible long-term outcomes of each route to their end goal as well as understand how their decisions affect everything around them and realize that the most convenient solution may not be the most optimal in the long-term, and that they should consider the full ramifications of a choice rather than just instant gratification.
So? As has been reiterated multiple times, Warlocks did not work out how to manipulate the Weave on their own. Either they directly had a Patron show them their spells and powers, or they found something that amounts to "follow these steps to get magic powers". Yes, they might also be academically diligent or have a high IQ, but that's not why they're able to use magic. The broad archetype is that they are able to use magic because they struck a deal with some being for the ability, and the bit about "finding knowledge" that you're framing as a high INT activity reads more like finding an AI program to write a paper for them. It does not take high intelligence to read a book and follow the instructions of drawing certain weird shapes, placing candles in a particular arrangement, and saying some funny words.
Generally, being able to research and look into if someone has done the work for you prior is a sign of intelligence. Finding that knowledge is not like using an AI program to write a paper for them. Finding that knowledge diligently is like doing the research on a dissertation, pouring over tomes and first hand archaeological research...the kind of stuff we would otherwise argue a wizard might be inclined to do. But a warlock uses the knowledge gained through that research to learn how to contact another being and gain power through them.
Because it's the easy path to power and should thus appeal to a wide variety of people.
It appeals to people who aren't inclined to do things the hard way. Which is not generally an indicator of academic success or talent (mechanically, of course, it's easier or harder than any other course to power, but since your argument is based on fluff, not mechanics, any response should be equally based on fluff).
Desiring an easy path to power (or more broadly "results") is not in any way an indicator of whether someone is or is not academically talented. In other words: academically successful or intelligent individuals don't do the things they do merely based on the difficulty of the task. Frankly though, this is just a weird argument to me; I get arguing that making a deal with questionable beings is a sign of questionable intelligence (though I think it also is a somewhat shaky argument to make), but just blankly stating that desiring the fastest or easiest path to results is a direct indicator that someone is not of bright intelligence is...well, simply unfounded and bizarre to me. Wouldn't an intelligent person look for the most direct route to their end goal?
lol, no. An intelligent person would be able to predict the possible long-term outcomes of each route to their end goal as well as understand how their decisions affect everything around them and realize that the most convenient solution may not be the most optimal in the long-term, and that they should consider the full ramifications of a choice rather than just instant gratification.
Hence why I said arguing that making a deal with questionable beings as a sign of questionable intelligence - or, as you say, possibly not considering the ramifications - is a better argument...but it was not actually the argument that I was responding to. It as well is a shaky argument though. An overabundance of ego, hubris, hunger for power, being overly zealous, or just plain laziness...all of which, and other reasons, could lead to striking such bargains have no indication of a persons intelligence or academic capability whatsoever.
Maybe the warlock was truly even intelligent enough to know it could strike the bargain and come out victorious or with the upper hand in the end; seems to work out pretty well for the player warlocks typically. Hell, there isn't even any rule or loose guideline for a warlock to lose their power through any means like there is for the paladin. So, personally to me it seems it's the patron who's getting shafted here, they're giving away power to someone on some tenuous agreement and there's nothing really there to bind that person to uphold their end of any supposed bargain except their possible desire to gain even MORE power. Topping it all off is that the patron can't even revoke their already given gifts if it turns out they made a bad deal. To me, this sounds like the warlock did its research, learned the proper knowledge and rituals, and gave due consideration to what it would cost to bind that being into providing it the power they sought.
Because it's the easy path to power and should thus appeal to a wide variety of people.
It appeals to people who aren't inclined to do things the hard way. Which is not generally an indicator of academic success or talent (mechanically, of course, it's easier or harder than any other course to power, but since your argument is based on fluff, not mechanics, any response should be equally based on fluff).
Desiring an easy path to power (or more broadly "results") is not in any way an indicator of whether someone is or is not academically talented. In other words: academically successful or intelligent individuals don't do the things they do merely based on the difficulty of the task. Frankly though, this is just a weird argument to me; I get arguing that making a deal with questionable beings is a sign of questionable intelligence (though I think it also is a somewhat shaky argument to make), but just blankly stating that desiring the fastest or easiest path to results is a direct indicator that someone is not of bright intelligence is...well, simply unfounded and bizarre to me. Wouldn't an intelligent person look for the most direct route to their end goal?
And the most "direct" option to having the most spending power at a time is to answer those "you've been pre-approved" credit card letters and get yourself a piece of plastic with a relatively high limit and an even higher compounding interest rate that means you can spend years paying off that first set of charges. And yet, oddly enough, that never seems to work out well for the cardholder's fiscal security or ability to continue buying at the same rate they could on that initial splurge, vs someone who either just gets a debit card and sticks to their budget or someone who takes some time to find a card with a limit and rate they can keep up with.
So? As has been reiterated multiple times, Warlocks did not work out how to manipulate the Weave on their own. Either they directly had a Patron show them their spells and powers, or they found something that amounts to "follow these steps to get magic powers". Yes, they might also be academically diligent or have a high IQ, but that's not why they're able to use magic. The broad archetype is that they are able to use magic because they struck a deal with some being for the ability, and the bit about "finding knowledge" that you're framing as a high INT activity reads more like finding an AI program to write a paper for them. It does not take high intelligence to read a book and follow the instructions of drawing certain weird shapes, placing candles in a particular arrangement, and saying some funny words.
Generally, being able to research and look into if someone has done the work for you prior is a sign of intelligence. Finding that knowledge is not like using an AI program to write a paper for them. Finding that knowledge diligently is like doing the research on a dissertation, pouring over tomes and first hand archaeological research...the kind of stuff we would otherwise argue a wizard might be inclined to do. But a warlock uses the knowledge gained through that research to learn how to contact another being and gain power through them.
The point is that Warlocks aren't putting together dissertations, though. Wizards are putting together dissertations, that's why they have the book they record all their spells in and are able to learn spells from someone else's book. One of the Watsonian explanations for why Warlocks have a fixed number of known spells is because they're reliant on the knowledge their patron gives them, they don't/can't build up a larger repertoire from their own knowledge.
And "finding knowledge" is not a high IQ act; anyone can get on Google, plug in "what is X", and browse the Wiki page on the topic and repeat what they read there. That's the kind of "poring over tomes of forbidden lore" activity from the description. If they were synthesizing their own interpretations and conclusions and applying that to their spellcasting, they'd be Wizards.
And the most "direct" option to having the most spending power at a time is to answer those "you've been pre-approved" credit card letters and get yourself a piece of plastic with a relatively high limit and an even higher compounding interest rate that means you can spend years paying off that first set of charges. And yet, oddly enough, that never seems to work out well for the cardholder's fiscal security or ability to continue buying at the same rate they could on that initial splurge, vs someone who either just gets a debit card and sticks to their budget or someone who takes some time to find a card with a limit and rate they can keep up with.
More aptly, an intelligent warlock would sign up for those "you've been pre-approved 0% apr for x number of months purchasing of x value" rack up the debt with 0 interest and pay it all off in the timeframe before the compounding high interest ever hits them, then they move on and only do so again when a new deal to be struck that they can exploit presents itself. A dumb warlock would do so and rack up too much debt that they either couldn't or just simply don't pay it off in time.
Remember that how both pacts and patrons work is strictly lore, and so not a useful point of contention even within the published settings if two different DMs are involved.
next, imagine if all magic relied on the same ability score, but required multiple ones to be effective (Wis for those who serve, Int for those who learn, Cha for those who feel, Con for those who channel).
I mean, just as a thought.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
And the most "direct" option to having the most spending power at a time is to answer those "you've been pre-approved" credit card letters and get yourself a piece of plastic with a relatively high limit and an even higher compounding interest rate that means you can spend years paying off that first set of charges. And yet, oddly enough, that never seems to work out well for the cardholder's fiscal security or ability to continue buying at the same rate they could on that initial splurge, vs someone who either just gets a debit card and sticks to their budget or someone who takes some time to find a card with a limit and rate they can keep up with.
More aptly, an intelligent warlock would sign up for those "you've been pre-approved 0% apr for x number of months purchasing of x value" rack up the debt with 0 interest and pay it all off in the timeframe before the compounding high interest ever hits them, then they move on and only do so again when a new deal to be struck that they can exploit presents itself. A dumb warlock would do so and rack up too much debt that they either couldn't or just simply don't pay it off in time.
Really? You think the people sending out those cards leave a way for the consumer to exploit them? The scenario you've described makes it pointless to have the card, if you've already got the means to pay it off. You can accumulate X amount of credit on the card in total before you have to pay it off. You haven't increased your purchasing power if you only use the card to make purchases you're capable of paying off. At that point the intelligent thing to do is get a debit card instead.
Remember that how both pacts and patrons work is strictly lore, and so not a useful point of contention even within the published settings if two different DMs are involved.
next, imagine if all magic relied on the same ability score, but required multiple ones to be effective (Wis for those who serve, Int for those who learn, Cha for those who feel, Con for those who channel).
I mean, just as a thought.
I mean, if this is the "different stats affect different things like known spells, saves, to hit" then I'm picturing a system that ultimately nets out to one superior stat that gets prioritized by most everyone. Probably the DC one within the current array of spells. If you mean every caster is required to be MAD, then I'm picturing the same complaints you hear about Monks but multiplied tenfold.
Like, from a writing/lore perspective the "various mental disciplines" bit works, but from what I've seen when a game breaks things down into hard numbers like this it tends to encourage sticking to an optimum arrangement, particularly with how little wiggle room you get once you've set your initial stats.
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"Stop at nothing"? That's a bit much. I disagree with the vehemence you all attack Warlocks using CHA, and I don't see why Warlocks need to be the special case with two options for casting stats. Plus I'm a contrary so-and-so who likes to argue about something completely pointless sometimes. Seems to be a lot of that going around.
No, I'm talking about the stereotypical Cthulhu mythos cultist. Whose forbidden knowledge just sounds like gibbering lunacy to anyone who hasn't been similarly driven mad.
Okay, are we talking about the archetype of the "mad scientist" or "crazy Lovecraftian cultist"? Those are two very different things. Like, if you look at two of the archetypal mad scientist examples in Doctor Jekyll or Victor Frankenstein (fun fact, in the original book he's a drop-out, never gets his doctorate), while they do stuff that is considered morally sketchy, they also did all their own research, testing, etc. Neither one was using "the lost secrets of the ancients" or "visions from the Elder Gods who are dead yet still dream" or what have you. Now, if we go Lovecraftian, then Elder Gods and arcane tomes abound. You can have a mad scientist who's also a cultist, or in a story that crosses magic with science you can call a cultist a mad scientist, but there's a fundamental difference between someone who takes their own research past societal and ethical boundaries and achieves grim results and someone who decides that since standard research isn't working out for them they'll pick up the pocket edition of the Necronomicon and consult it for inspiration.
We're fine with Warlocks using Cha.
Because it's the easy path to power and should thus appeal to a wide variety of people.
So you're trolling. Good talk.
Not trolling; I'm not arguing in bad faith, I just have not mastered the art of when to walk away.
I could accept those renames. Honestly, Wisdom and Charisma don’t describe what they do. Intelligence is mostly just knowledge checks, so renaming it Knowledge just seems simple. I suppose it could be argued that since investigation checks also fall under the stat, Intelligence might be a proper name. Maybe it could be Logic. Wisdom in no form has anything to do with actual Wisdom. After further thought I like Intuition for the stat name. I feel like intuition covers all the checks it does. Influence works as a replacement for Charisma.
It appeals to people who aren't inclined to do things the hard way. Which is not generally an indicator of academic success or talent (mechanically, of course, it's no easier or harder than any other course to power, but since your argument is based on fluff, not mechanics, any response should be equally based on fluff).
High intelligence does not mean you're academically diligent or unwilling to take shortcuts.
This is not the same argument; nor did I argue on any basis that casting stat doesn't matter at all. "Reading a great deal into what casting stat is used" is not the same as arguing they can only be distinguishable from each other if they use different casting stats. But, if we're going to appeal to popularity, people have also amply demonstrated that charisma is not paramount enough to the warlocks identity that it itself defines the class in any truly meaningful way.
So? As has been reiterated multiple times, Warlocks did not work out how to manipulate the Weave on their own. Either they directly had a Patron show them their spells and powers, or they found something that amounts to "follow these steps to get magic powers". Yes, they might also be academically diligent or have a high IQ, but that's not why they're able to use magic. The broad archetype is that they are able to use magic because they struck a deal with some being for the ability, and the bit about "finding knowledge" that you're framing as a high INT activity reads more like finding an AI program to write a paper for them. It does not take high intelligence to read a book and follow the instructions of drawing certain weird shapes, placing candles in a particular arrangement, and saying some funny words.
Desiring an easy path to power (or more broadly "results") is not in any way an indicator of whether someone is or is not academically talented. In other words: academically successful or intelligent individuals don't do the things they do merely based on the difficulty of the task. Frankly though, this is just a weird argument to me; I get arguing that making a deal with questionable beings is a sign of questionable intelligence (though I think it also is a somewhat shaky argument to make), but just blankly stating that desiring the fastest or easiest path to results is a direct indicator that someone is not of bright intelligence is...well, simply unfounded and bizarre to me. Wouldn't an intelligent person look for the most direct route to their end goal?
lol, no. An intelligent person would be able to predict the possible long-term outcomes of each route to their end goal as well as understand how their decisions affect everything around them and realize that the most convenient solution may not be the most optimal in the long-term, and that they should consider the full ramifications of a choice rather than just instant gratification.
Generally, being able to research and look into if someone has done the work for you prior is a sign of intelligence. Finding that knowledge is not like using an AI program to write a paper for them. Finding that knowledge diligently is like doing the research on a dissertation, pouring over tomes and first hand archaeological research...the kind of stuff we would otherwise argue a wizard might be inclined to do. But a warlock uses the knowledge gained through that research to learn how to contact another being and gain power through them.
Hence why I said arguing that making a deal with questionable beings as a sign of questionable intelligence - or, as you say, possibly not considering the ramifications - is a better argument...but it was not actually the argument that I was responding to. It as well is a shaky argument though. An overabundance of ego, hubris, hunger for power, being overly zealous, or just plain laziness...all of which, and other reasons, could lead to striking such bargains have no indication of a persons intelligence or academic capability whatsoever.
Maybe the warlock was truly even intelligent enough to know it could strike the bargain and come out victorious or with the upper hand in the end; seems to work out pretty well for the player warlocks typically. Hell, there isn't even any rule or loose guideline for a warlock to lose their power through any means like there is for the paladin. So, personally to me it seems it's the patron who's getting shafted here, they're giving away power to someone on some tenuous agreement and there's nothing really there to bind that person to uphold their end of any supposed bargain except their possible desire to gain even MORE power. Topping it all off is that the patron can't even revoke their already given gifts if it turns out they made a bad deal. To me, this sounds like the warlock did its research, learned the proper knowledge and rituals, and gave due consideration to what it would cost to bind that being into providing it the power they sought.
And the most "direct" option to having the most spending power at a time is to answer those "you've been pre-approved" credit card letters and get yourself a piece of plastic with a relatively high limit and an even higher compounding interest rate that means you can spend years paying off that first set of charges. And yet, oddly enough, that never seems to work out well for the cardholder's fiscal security or ability to continue buying at the same rate they could on that initial splurge, vs someone who either just gets a debit card and sticks to their budget or someone who takes some time to find a card with a limit and rate they can keep up with.
The point is that Warlocks aren't putting together dissertations, though. Wizards are putting together dissertations, that's why they have the book they record all their spells in and are able to learn spells from someone else's book. One of the Watsonian explanations for why Warlocks have a fixed number of known spells is because they're reliant on the knowledge their patron gives them, they don't/can't build up a larger repertoire from their own knowledge.
And "finding knowledge" is not a high IQ act; anyone can get on Google, plug in "what is X", and browse the Wiki page on the topic and repeat what they read there. That's the kind of "poring over tomes of forbidden lore" activity from the description. If they were synthesizing their own interpretations and conclusions and applying that to their spellcasting, they'd be Wizards.
More aptly, an intelligent warlock would sign up for those "you've been pre-approved 0% apr for x number of months purchasing of x value" rack up the debt with 0 interest and pay it all off in the timeframe before the compounding high interest ever hits them, then they move on and only do so again when a new deal to be struck that they can exploit presents itself. A dumb warlock would do so and rack up too much debt that they either couldn't or just simply don't pay it off in time.
Remember that how both pacts and patrons work is strictly lore, and so not a useful point of contention even within the published settings if two different DMs are involved.
next, imagine if all magic relied on the same ability score, but required multiple ones to be effective (Wis for those who serve, Int for those who learn, Cha for those who feel, Con for those who channel).
I mean, just as a thought.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Really? You think the people sending out those cards leave a way for the consumer to exploit them? The scenario you've described makes it pointless to have the card, if you've already got the means to pay it off. You can accumulate X amount of credit on the card in total before you have to pay it off. You haven't increased your purchasing power if you only use the card to make purchases you're capable of paying off. At that point the intelligent thing to do is get a debit card instead.
I mean, if this is the "different stats affect different things like known spells, saves, to hit" then I'm picturing a system that ultimately nets out to one superior stat that gets prioritized by most everyone. Probably the DC one within the current array of spells. If you mean every caster is required to be MAD, then I'm picturing the same complaints you hear about Monks but multiplied tenfold.
Like, from a writing/lore perspective the "various mental disciplines" bit works, but from what I've seen when a game breaks things down into hard numbers like this it tends to encourage sticking to an optimum arrangement, particularly with how little wiggle room you get once you've set your initial stats.