I understand for some, the flexible casting of the original ua warlock was over powered, or made it more likely to be multiclassed, and yes you are correct, however I argue that isn't a bad thing. Warlocks by default as the sugar daddy spell caster, we all love to joke about it, but it is true. It fit's it would be the best multiclass class, as it is a way to easy power and gives early rewards to draw you into the clutches of a more powerful being.
additionally making it a flexible caster gives it more credence to it's identity. The idea that you made your pact in a special way gives so much flavor and power to what a warlock is not making it a flexible caster ruins the class from it's full potential. Don't believe me?
You studied the text thoroughly, poured through every book you could at the local school, no one else had put the puzzle together till you saw the words all jumbling together and forming a history (Int) hidden in code. You followed the coordinates out of town to an old shrine. Inside was a blade, and it granted the power you now wield. Int hex Blade
You played games of poker at the local saloon since you were little. You learned to win, not by card counting, but by judging the character of those playing against you. One day a stranger walked in with a devilish smile joining the game with out even a word. The group played till it was only the two of you left, at this point you were perceptive (wis) picking up on his tells, and your insight (wis) to his lies made the final play all the easier. When you won he was shocked, but also amused letting out a loud laugh. As he laughed his skin turned red and horns burned out of his flesh. He looked at you, and asked if you'd like to make a deal. Wis Fiend
You danced upon the stage performing (cha) the greatest dance you could. All eyes were on you, but one was watching not even you could expect, from a far off realm captivated by you. It knew it needed you, because no one could take their eyes off you, not even this creature. Cha Eldritch.
You didn't really get around to explaining how it isn't a bad thing to make Warlock dips even more Munchkiny, besides handwaving it away with "it fits!".
You didn't really get around to explaining how it isn't a bad thing to make Warlock dips even more Munchkiny, besides handwaving it away with "it fits!".
Because "it fits the class fantasy/narrative" is enough of a justification for some people. The idea that the warlock class is an easy road to power for many, and not just an easy road to power for annoying horndogs, makes a lot of sense. besides, the WORST multiclasses - warlock/dingdong and warlock/sorcerer - are already a thing. No other multiclass combination would be as potent mechanically, so who cares if they're actually feasible now? They won't cause any problems that Padlocks or Sorlocks don't already cause, and it does fit the class narrative that warlocks come from many paths. Forcing them all to be annoying horndogs is...well? Annoying.
I want a flexible casting stat back as well but something should be done to handle the warlock dip issue which exits almost as much with just charisma as it does with the flexible stat. Though honestly I'd be fine if they just changed it to Int for the stat. It is what fits the class description even if it is generally weaker than charisma. Sure yes you can justify any stat but the clear link in the class description is int. I'm sure I could argue a con link for wizard if you really want, how while you aren't the brightest student you had the endurance to keep on studying pulling all nighters with ease. Wizard the con caster. So sure you can justify any stat for any class, but I'd say its prime stat normally should be the one that fits the class description.
I want a flexible casting stat back as well but something should be done to handle the warlock dip issue which exits almost as much with just charisma as it does with the flexible stat. Though honestly I'd be fine if they just changed it to Int for the stat. It is what fits the class description even if it is generally weaker than charisma. Sure yes you can justify any stat but the clear link in the class description is int. I'm sure I could argue a con link for wizard if you really want, how while you aren't the brightest student you had the endurance to keep on studying pulling all nighters with ease. Wizard the con caster. So sure you can justify any stat for any class, but I'd say its prime stat normally should be the one that fits the class description.
Except the Warlock didn't study for power, they bargained for power. A character bargains with Charisma.
While I think a flexible casting stat is generally fine on the Warlock (given the new ability score dependencies tied to large weapons) the idea that intelligence being more important than charisma is just wish-casting your prefered version of the class. Creating power or weilding magic like a tool (via intelligence) is the provenance of wizards, artificers and the subclass casters; charisma casters channel their spellcasting power from an external source through their force of will.*
*Yeah, the bard is maybe an exception, but that gets into a weird question about where music or art comes from and how we define it. It's not a great catch all but I think it makes sense given the current class structure.
Warlocks made a bargain for their power but virtually everything in the class description is about them being people seeking knowledge and secrets. Virtually every class will have another stat they had to use once in their training. Their closest link is int, chr won in polls because its just a much better stat at most tables. But hey flexible stats at least two works as well, fighters can be strength or dex for example so its not unheard of.
Hmm, that's true, but I'd say the genesis of those powers is the bargaining / connection. If they were successful in their search, if they could pull the power from the raw stuff of magic they'd be wizards. I agree that both in terms of general lore and the class descriptions, becoming a Warlock has something to do with intelligence. But the way that magic is used and the ability to call it down feels more charisma based.
I generally agree on the dual ability choice as well though, I can see an argument being made for intelligence in lieu of but not exclusive of Charisma
And of course I'm also biased towards charisma characters anyway since I gravitate towards face characters xD
TBH Warlocks shouldn't have a casting stat at all, because it isn't their magic - it is their patrons. So they should have a fixed spell attack modifier and fixed spell DC that progresses at a fixed rate as you gain warlock levels.
e.g.:
Level 1-4: DC 13, +5 to spell attacks Level 5-8: DC 15, +7 to spell attacks Level 9-12: DC 16, +8 to spell attacks Level 13-17: DC 17, +9 to spell attacks Level 17+ : DC 18, +10 to spell attacks
+ Invocation at level 8+ to increase your spell DC & spell attack by +1
TBH Warlocks shouldn't have a casting stat at all, because it isn't their magic - it is their patrons. So they should have a fixed spell attack modifier and fixed spell DC that progresses at a fixed rate as you gain warlock levels.
e.g.:
Level 1-4: DC 13, +5 to spell attacks Level 5-8: DC 15, +7 to spell attacks Level 9-12: DC 16, +8 to spell attacks Level 13-17: DC 17, +9 to spell attacks Level 17+ : DC 18, +10 to spell attacks
+ Invocation at level 8+ to increase your spell DC & spell attack by +1
I never saw it that way myself, I can see that for clerics but warlocks I saw it more as they were granted forbidden knowledge which they use from their own power. Maybe it is because I'm more GOO lock focused in my concepts.
For me the warlock always felt more intelligence based then anything else.
A fix for the switch from cha would be retooling Beguiling Influence invocation so it allows the warlock to use INT instead of CHA mod for charisma checks and giving it to Archfey and Fiend warlocks for free.
Moving warlock to INT while also fixing Eldritch Blast multi class shenanigans would do heaps in terms of overall balance by breaking the CHA caster quartet.
Except the Warlock didn't study for power, they bargained for power. A character bargains with Charisma. ...
The Great Old One warlock is explicitly stated as frequently stealing power from a sleeping Old One, potentially without that Old One's (immediate) knowledge. Many warlock pacts are forced upon unwilling characters that did not go out of their way to seek one - the Fiend in particular is a good one for literal Devil's Bargains that did not need any Horniness to negotiate - the Fiend appeared to someone at their most desperate moment and offered a gift of power in exchange for The Usual. And even with the usual "seek out a Patron and negotiate a deal" thing? Before you can use Horniness to negotiate terms, you need to use Intelligence to locate a Patron worth bargaining with in the first place, figure out how to contact such a patron, and determine what they want.
Warlocks do not need to be ******* horny. HALF THE GAME'S CLASSES are Charisma-based. We have ONE, SINGLE Intelligence-based character in the 2024 books, since the artificer is being abandoned. Warlocks being allowed to vary their casting ability dependent on what the nature of their Pact is was one of the coolest ideas in the UA5 document, and it does nothing but enhance the game. There is no good reason to dispermit it.
Except the Warlock didn't study for power, they bargained for power. A character bargains with Charisma. ...
The Great Old One warlock is explicitly stated as frequently stealing power from a sleeping Old One, potentially without that Old One's (immediate) knowledge. Many warlock pacts are forced upon unwilling characters that did not go out of their way to seek one - the Fiend in particular is a good one for literal Devil's Bargains that did not need any Horniness to negotiate - the Fiend appeared to someone at their most desperate moment and offered a gift of power in exchange for The Usual. And even with the usual "seek out a Patron and negotiate a deal" thing? Before you can use Horniness to negotiate terms, you need to use Intelligence to locate a Patron worth bargaining with in the first place, figure out how to contact such a patron, and determine what they want.
Warlocks do not need to be ******* horny. HALF THE GAME'S CLASSES are Charisma-based. We have ONE, SINGLE Intelligence-based character in the 2024 books, since the artificer is being abandoned. Warlocks being allowed to vary their casting ability dependent on what the nature of their Pact is was one of the coolest ideas in the UA5 document, and it does nothing but enhance the game. There is no good reason to dispermit it.
Re-read my whole post. I do support a variant attribute Warlock. I was arguing charisma still makes more sense than intelligence, but I also agree that a variable casting stat would be best for the class.
I suspect that if you spent more time reading what you're responding to and less time composing your posts like whatever this is you wouldn't need this to be explained.
The rest of your post can be summed up as "you're wrong and you shouldn't want this, but I guess it's okay." I considered it irrelevant to the point, which is that too many people believe being horny is an ironclad mandate for warlocks just because the word "bargain" is written somewhere in its class description.
Besides which, bargaining isn't even always Charisma and just trying to convince someone to take a bad deal through sheer force of horny. Sometimes a bargain is a highly intellectual exchange of terms, conditions, benefits, and obligations, a negotiation far more rooted in Intelligence than in Charisma.
Sorcerers, bards, and paladins are all already Charisma-focused, the former two to the exclusion of all else. We do not need a third Charisma-focused "full" caster. The warlock being flexible makes sense, more so than any other casting class. Why not? Realistically - why not?
I completely agree with this thread. Warlocks absolutely should be a tempting level dip for most classes. The entire class theme is to be a temptation. Easy power at an unknown and often grave cost. It's dumb that this awesome narrative has been relegated only to bards, sorcerers, and paladins. Wizard/Warlock should be an iconic combo harkening back to countless tales of wizards led astray by the temptations of secrets just beyond their grasp.
It also makes sense thematically. Yes, you can use your Charisma to negotiate a contract with a devil. But you can also use your Intelligence to decipher the ancient lettering of a long lost tome that details rituals most profane that draw power from an Eldritch star or use your Wisdom and keen insight to see through the deceptions of a fey trickster enough to capture them and extort them for their mystical secrets in exchange for their freedom.
There are so many ways one can become a warlock. Limiting them to a narrow path of being a good talker is silly. Heck, some warlocks only become warlocks because they very much are not good talkers and found themselves on the bad end of an even worse deal.
I understand for some, the flexible casting of the original ua warlock was over powered, or made it more likely to be multiclassed, and yes you are correct, however I argue that isn't a bad thing. Warlocks by default as the sugar daddy spell caster, we all love to joke about it, but it is true. It fit's it would be the best multiclass class, as it is a way to easy power and gives early rewards to draw you into the clutches of a more powerful being.
additionally making it a flexible caster gives it more credence to it's identity. The idea that you made your pact in a special way gives so much flavor and power to what a warlock is not making it a flexible caster ruins the class from it's full potential. Don't believe me?
You studied the text thoroughly, poured through every book you could at the local school, no one else had put the puzzle together till you saw the words all jumbling together and forming a history (Int) hidden in code. You followed the coordinates out of town to an old shrine. Inside was a blade, and it granted the power you now wield. Int hex Blade
You played games of poker at the local saloon since you were little. You learned to win, not by card counting, but by judging the character of those playing against you. One day a stranger walked in with a devilish smile joining the game with out even a word. The group played till it was only the two of you left, at this point you were perceptive (wis) picking up on his tells, and your insight (wis) to his lies made the final play all the easier. When you won he was shocked, but also amused letting out a loud laugh. As he laughed his skin turned red and horns burned out of his flesh. He looked at you, and asked if you'd like to make a deal. Wis Fiend
You danced upon the stage performing (cha) the greatest dance you could. All eyes were on you, but one was watching not even you could expect, from a far off realm captivated by you. It knew it needed you, because no one could take their eyes off you, not even this creature. Cha Eldritch.
You didn't really get around to explaining how it isn't a bad thing to make Warlock dips even more Munchkiny, besides handwaving it away with "it fits!".
Because "it fits the class fantasy/narrative" is enough of a justification for some people. The idea that the warlock class is an easy road to power for many, and not just an easy road to power for annoying horndogs, makes a lot of sense. besides, the WORST multiclasses - warlock/dingdong and warlock/sorcerer - are already a thing. No other multiclass combination would be as potent mechanically, so who cares if they're actually feasible now? They won't cause any problems that Padlocks or Sorlocks don't already cause, and it does fit the class narrative that warlocks come from many paths. Forcing them all to be annoying horndogs is...well? Annoying.
Please do not contact or message me.
I want a flexible casting stat back as well but something should be done to handle the warlock dip issue which exits almost as much with just charisma as it does with the flexible stat. Though honestly I'd be fine if they just changed it to Int for the stat. It is what fits the class description even if it is generally weaker than charisma. Sure yes you can justify any stat but the clear link in the class description is int. I'm sure I could argue a con link for wizard if you really want, how while you aren't the brightest student you had the endurance to keep on studying pulling all nighters with ease. Wizard the con caster. So sure you can justify any stat for any class, but I'd say its prime stat normally should be the one that fits the class description.
Except the Warlock didn't study for power, they bargained for power. A character bargains with Charisma.
While I think a flexible casting stat is generally fine on the Warlock (given the new ability score dependencies tied to large weapons) the idea that intelligence being more important than charisma is just wish-casting your prefered version of the class. Creating power or weilding magic like a tool (via intelligence) is the provenance of wizards, artificers and the subclass casters; charisma casters channel their spellcasting power from an external source through their force of will.*
*Yeah, the bard is maybe an exception, but that gets into a weird question about where music or art comes from and how we define it. It's not a great catch all but I think it makes sense given the current class structure.
Warlocks made a bargain for their power but virtually everything in the class description is about them being people seeking knowledge and secrets. Virtually every class will have another stat they had to use once in their training. Their closest link is int, chr won in polls because its just a much better stat at most tables. But hey flexible stats at least two works as well, fighters can be strength or dex for example so its not unheard of.
Hmm, that's true, but I'd say the genesis of those powers is the bargaining / connection. If they were successful in their search, if they could pull the power from the raw stuff of magic they'd be wizards. I agree that both in terms of general lore and the class descriptions, becoming a Warlock has something to do with intelligence. But the way that magic is used and the ability to call it down feels more charisma based.
I generally agree on the dual ability choice as well though, I can see an argument being made for intelligence in lieu of but not exclusive of Charisma
And of course I'm also biased towards charisma characters anyway since I gravitate towards face characters xD
Oh, the flexible casting stat for Warlocks was my favorite part of that UA. They should definitely bring it back.
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Using slightly more words, I put BRING BACK INT AND CHA in flaming letters - well, as close to flaming as I could get - in my UA7 survey.
TBH Warlocks shouldn't have a casting stat at all, because it isn't their magic - it is their patrons. So they should have a fixed spell attack modifier and fixed spell DC that progresses at a fixed rate as you gain warlock levels.
e.g.:
Level 1-4: DC 13, +5 to spell attacks
Level 5-8: DC 15, +7 to spell attacks
Level 9-12: DC 16, +8 to spell attacks
Level 13-17: DC 17, +9 to spell attacks
Level 17+ : DC 18, +10 to spell attacks
+ Invocation at level 8+ to increase your spell DC & spell attack by +1
I never saw it that way myself, I can see that for clerics but warlocks I saw it more as they were granted forbidden knowledge which they use from their own power. Maybe it is because I'm more GOO lock focused in my concepts.
For me the warlock always felt more intelligence based then anything else.
A fix for the switch from cha would be retooling Beguiling Influence invocation so it allows the warlock to use INT instead of CHA mod for charisma checks and giving it to Archfey and Fiend warlocks for free.
Moving warlock to INT while also fixing Eldritch Blast multi class shenanigans would do heaps in terms of overall balance by breaking the CHA caster quartet.
The Great Old One warlock is explicitly stated as frequently stealing power from a sleeping Old One, potentially without that Old One's (immediate) knowledge. Many warlock pacts are forced upon unwilling characters that did not go out of their way to seek one - the Fiend in particular is a good one for literal Devil's Bargains that did not need any Horniness to negotiate - the Fiend appeared to someone at their most desperate moment and offered a gift of power in exchange for The Usual. And even with the usual "seek out a Patron and negotiate a deal" thing? Before you can use Horniness to negotiate terms, you need to use Intelligence to locate a Patron worth bargaining with in the first place, figure out how to contact such a patron, and determine what they want.
Warlocks do not need to be ******* horny. HALF THE GAME'S CLASSES are Charisma-based. We have ONE, SINGLE Intelligence-based character in the 2024 books, since the artificer is being abandoned. Warlocks being allowed to vary their casting ability dependent on what the nature of their Pact is was one of the coolest ideas in the UA5 document, and it does nothing but enhance the game. There is no good reason to dispermit it.
Please do not contact or message me.
Re-read my whole post. I do support a variant attribute Warlock. I was arguing charisma still makes more sense than intelligence, but I also agree that a variable casting stat would be best for the class.
I suspect that if you spent more time reading what you're responding to and less time composing your posts like whatever this is you wouldn't need this to be explained.
The rest of your post can be summed up as "you're wrong and you shouldn't want this, but I guess it's okay." I considered it irrelevant to the point, which is that too many people believe being horny is an ironclad mandate for warlocks just because the word "bargain" is written somewhere in its class description.
Besides which, bargaining isn't even always Charisma and just trying to convince someone to take a bad deal through sheer force of horny. Sometimes a bargain is a highly intellectual exchange of terms, conditions, benefits, and obligations, a negotiation far more rooted in Intelligence than in Charisma.
Sorcerers, bards, and paladins are all already Charisma-focused, the former two to the exclusion of all else. We do not need a third Charisma-focused "full" caster. The warlock being flexible makes sense, more so than any other casting class. Why not? Realistically - why not?
Please do not contact or message me.
I completely agree with this thread. Warlocks absolutely should be a tempting level dip for most classes. The entire class theme is to be a temptation. Easy power at an unknown and often grave cost. It's dumb that this awesome narrative has been relegated only to bards, sorcerers, and paladins. Wizard/Warlock should be an iconic combo harkening back to countless tales of wizards led astray by the temptations of secrets just beyond their grasp.
It also makes sense thematically. Yes, you can use your Charisma to negotiate a contract with a devil. But you can also use your Intelligence to decipher the ancient lettering of a long lost tome that details rituals most profane that draw power from an Eldritch star or use your Wisdom and keen insight to see through the deceptions of a fey trickster enough to capture them and extort them for their mystical secrets in exchange for their freedom.
There are so many ways one can become a warlock. Limiting them to a narrow path of being a good talker is silly. Heck, some warlocks only become warlocks because they very much are not good talkers and found themselves on the bad end of an even worse deal.
I'd be cool with them adding INT as an option, mostly agreeing with the conversation above... but I think that WIS should be off the table.
You can be book smart, and an idiot enough to make a Faustian bargain.
You can have intense force of personality, and be an idiot enough to make a Faustian bargain.
Anyone with any common sense (ie: Wisdom) would see that bargain for what it is and run for the hills...
Wisdom is very much aligned with the Eldritch tho, i.e. The Great Old One.
Naaah... I don't buy it. I've read too much Lovecraft. None of those hapless fools had a high Wisdom score.
(to be clear - I see nothing with a Warlock of any sort having a high Wisdom - just not as the Primary Stat)
But Wisdom doesn’t mean that in D&D. Wis is all about noticing things and such, it fits well enough for Warlocks just fine.
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