A fifth attack isn't as impactful as you think when factoring in weapon masteries on other classes. But at least FoB doesn't have to compete with as many other bonus action options, it can truly be monk's way of maintaining damage. If they stick the landing on magical items for monks, there is actual hope here. I still think monk should get an extra reaction or bonus action as a feature. They don't get boosts in T3/T4 besides getting a slightly higher martial arts die tho.
They can get Weapon Mastery too now, via the Weapon Master feat, and it's a half-feat so doing so isn't even going to stop you from hitting 26/24 provided you start with 17 Dex and 16 Wis. Which is a lot more reasonable to do now that you can grapple with Dex and disengage for free. Picking up WM means you can actually have 6 attacks at level 10 - two Nick scimitars (or daggers - refluffed as cestuses/punch-daggers?) for three attacks with your Action (Attack + EA + Offhand), and 3 kicks/elbows/knees/etc with your Bonus Action (HD-FoB). This all costs you a single DP, and you can spend 1 more DP to throw a Stunning Strike attempt at the beginning of that - if it succeeds, all 5 of the other attacks are made with advantage, but even if it fails you get to add another MA+Wis to the pile. And every last one of those attacks will be doing longsword damage (d8s) at 10. That's 7d8+33 subclassless at level 10, for 2 ki, not counting your reaction - and 6d8+30 for 1 DP. A subclassless Barbarian at the same level with PAM and GWM tops out at 2d10+1d4+28, though they're at least attacking with advantage.
An extra bonus action on top of that would be way too powerful imo. I wouldn't mind an extra reaction though, so they can deflect two attacks, or deflect+OA.
Instead of making new toys for people who actually play Monk, you get changes no Monk player ever needed, that revolve entirely around the kind of player who has one or two "Big Fights" then ignores every other gameplay mechanic that exists in the game. Hooray.
People tend to focus on the combat pillar because that's usually where you can, y'know, actually die. Or at least underperform and feel worthless. If you fail the exploration or social pillar it usually means either that someone else in the party picks up your slack, or the DM applies a consequence of some kind but the story ultimately keeps moving.
Not to mention that Monk speed (and ability to do things like superjump and run up a waterfall) does actually give them something unique to do when exploring. And if you want skills on top of that, we all get 1st-level feats and better races now.
Patient defense should be spend 1ki to bonus action dodge and make one unarmed strike.
Getting a bonus attack as part of a feature named “Defense” seems backward.
You do PD as your bonus action, and can still attack with your Attack action. Seems appropriate to me.
Maybe bonus action unarmed strike with PD is not the answer. If you use the new step of the wind combo for dash and disengage you can attack and run far away without any risk of ever getting hit for the same ki cost. For deflect attack to be useful you have to get hit. Patient Defense is probably the least used bonus action and i dont see much of a reason to use it over other features. I am hoping they can find a way to make it better is all. Maybe the best way to make that better is to unclog that bonus action. I dont know what the answer is.
So, minor thought: suppose they add a little bit to the bonus action attack and FoB that you can't use your Action to Dodge on the turn you use them? Just because I feel like as-is it makes it too easy to just keep toggling Dodge on while still attacking, which is very much not what we want from Dodge.
you are likely to run out of discipline forever. sub class features usually use ki, and they increase in cost as you level.
Um... have you actually looked at the subclasses? With base monk features, it's not possible to spend more than 3 discipline points (1 on a bonus action, 1 on a stunning strike, 1 on deflection) in a round, so in a three round combat that's 9, unless you're really spamming the save reroll, which is not likely, and since you can recover DP when rolling initiative, we don't really have to care about multiple encounters per short rest unless it's at least 3+(number of short rest) total encounters, which is ... rare. Thus:
Hand can't run out over the levels 9-16. At level 17, will run out if uses QP more than 2x.
Shadow is spending 1 dp on casting darkness, and cloak of shadows costs 3 dp (but saves you 2), so can't run out at level 10+.
Elements can run out if they spam elemental burst, otherwise can't run out at level 10+.
Honestly, I don't understand why people make such a big deal out of "running out" of Ki/Discipline when a 10th level Paladin has fewer spell slots than a 10th level Monk has Ki points and- unless you remember the Tasha's feature that, notably, doesn't appear to be making the transition to the new core- no way to recharge them before end of day and yet that's apparently fine. They get some more DPR out of them, but regardless they can still burn through them in short order at most tiers.
What you think is "rare" is how 99% of people play the game and how the game is designed to be played.
You're correct it's the way the game designers expected it to be played. It's not the way anyone plays the game because even if you're using a 6 encounter day (which the majority of people, including most published adventures, do not do) that makes every encounter medium, and medium encounters do not last 3 rounds unless something makes engaging impractical, in which case your monk isn't spending 3 discipline points per turn.
Honestly, I don't understand why people make such a big deal out of "running out" of Ki/Discipline when a 10th level Paladin has fewer spell slots than a 10th level Monk has Ki points and- unless you remember the Tasha's feature that, notably, doesn't appear to be making the transition to the new core- no way to recharge them before end of day and yet that's apparently fine. They get some more DPR out of them, but regardless they can still burn through them in short order at most tiers.
So here's the secret, is that the Monk Bad crowd want Monks to be Goku. Or One-Punch Man. Or Naruto. Or any number of anime protagonists defined by simply being better than the entire rest of the cast combined.
It's not enough for the class to be comparative or to edge out in damage; they have to be the biggest contributor. It's not enough for the class to simply be faster; they have to get several times more mobility than everyone else. It's not enough for the class to have a solid pool of resources; they're the Strongest and thus should be able to do their Cool Things more than everyone else does, with the idea of "running out" of what fuels their powers basically being as existent a complication as it usually is in such anime shows.
They just straight-up want an overpowered Asian-flavoured class to fulfill their anime self-insert fantasy, and when the Monk dares to play by the same rules and power-scale as every other class in the game, they can't stand that.
I suppose it was my bad to expect a reasonable basis for it.
ok, lets go through it. first off supposedly most encounters last 4 turns.
round 1 elemental monk
1 ki to start elemental powers, 1 ki to BA 1 ki to stunning strike, thats 3 ki round one
2nd round 2 ki
3rd round 2 ki
4rth round 2 ki.
thats 9 ki per fight
this means the baseline monk that most people do DPR calculations on, isnt really possible until level 9. untill level 9 you will always be below this, and be doing less damage. than projected.
This means you need rest after every fight, except one time per day, you can avoid this. Barbarian does as much or more damage, and their version of metabolism scales to +5, and they get a whole fights worth when they are low. (instead of 4 hits) Fighter does your full ki damage without using action surge
this means you used no other monk features;
if you deflected damage any time during that, 1 more ki.
if you chose to use Environmental burst, for and advantageous AOE situation, thats 2 more ki.
open hand monk;
+4ki per round to quivering. with the 2ki baseline, they will hit 0 ki in 3.5 rounds. if not earlier.
shadow monk
1 ki for a shadow,
1 ki to teleport and take unarmed strike as a BA.
astral monk,
1 ki to use arms,
2ki to use arms+face and body
5ki to use the full power.
mercy monk
+1 ki per round to harm
+1 ki to heal
5ki to ressurect
so basically monk will always have benefit for more Ki, there is no need to make their ki issues even worse. or lower thier level 11 ki to dps effeciency.
you say they cant run out, but you point out 9-16 ki use. you seem to be thinking only about running out in one encounter. You generally are supposed to have 2-3 encounters between short rests. Which means by your own science, they will tend to be running out the second half of the day, either being ineffective for one fight, or splitting it up and being half as effective or a third for multiple fights.
also, the perfect self design encourages them to have bad experiences and go zero ki every fight, while only having 4 ki.
The KI design is still really really bad. i would not make it worse with any cost increases.
People tend to focus on the combat pillar because that's usually where you can, y'know, actually die. Or at least underperform and feel worthless. If you fail the exploration or social pillar it usually means either that someone else in the party picks up your slack, or the DM applies a consequence of some kind but the story ultimately keeps moving.
Not to mention that Monk speed (and ability to do things like superjump and run up a waterfall) does actually give them something unique to do when exploring. And if you want skills on top of that, we all get 1st-level feats and better races now.
"People" (as in a specific group of people) focus on the combat pillar because it's the one they "optimize" their characters for and thus expect the game to revolve around, because they don't want to engage with mechanics that don't benefit them and make them feel awesome. It's why, in a game where wizards and holy knights can duke it out with dragons and eldritch gods, taking a lunch break (yanno, a thing classes like the Monk are balanced around) is this absurd, ridiculous idea...because they play classes that don't benefit as much from short rests, and thus no one should get to short-rest when they're around. A short rest doesn't give them their cool abilities back.
An hour-long "lunch break" isn't always something you can plan for if you're a special ops team on a time-sensitive mission to try and save the world. So while I'm glad they gave every class a reason to take one now, I'm even happier that they've given the monk more resourceless actions too.
I'll also add that these changes to the base class doesn't stop subclasses from getting the cool out-of-combat things you seem to want, e.g. Shadow Monks make for fantastic scouts because they can create magical darkness without making a sound which they can see through and even move with them as they infiltrate an enemy stronghold, or Mercy Monks can be the village doctor healing people and curing diseases all day long etc.
This is a good monk. It scales way better, it can do a lot. It is super flexible. I would 100% play this monk. Probably elemental still because I like that one. But even the way of the hand feels super cool. Being able to disengage as a bonus action regardless of if I spent ki or not is huge. I can 3 attack and still disengage without any ki cost. And with 10 ki I can do even more.
Not sure on the wording for heightened discipline. Do I spend 1 ki and get 3 flurry of blow attacks or do I need to spend 2 ki to get 3 attacks?
It does lack some out of combat options, and lack of utility I am thankful seems solved by the change to the ability to grapple and shove with unarmed as a monk much easier.
Honestly, I don't understand why people make such a big deal out of "running out" of Ki/Discipline when a 10th level Paladin has fewer spell slots than a 10th level Monk has Ki points and- unless you remember the Tasha's feature that, notably, doesn't appear to be making the transition to the new core- no way to recharge them before end of day and yet that's apparently fine. They get some more DPR out of them, but regardless they can still burn through them in short order at most tiers.
So here's the secret, is that the Monk Bad crowd want Monks to be Goku. Or One-Punch Man. Or Naruto. Or any number of anime protagonists defined by simply being better than the entire rest of the cast combined.
It's not enough for the class to be comparative or to edge out in damage; they have to be the biggest contributor. It's not enough for the class to simply be faster; they have to get several times more mobility than everyone else. It's not enough for the class to have a solid pool of resources; they're the Strongest and thus should be able to do their Cool Things more than everyone else does, with the idea of "running out" of what fuels their powers basically being as existent a complication as it usually is in such anime shows.
They just straight-up want an overpowered Asian-flavoured class to fulfill their anime self-insert fantasy, and when the Monk dares to play by the same rules and power-scale as every other class in the game, they can't stand that.
I suppose it was my bad to expect a reasonable basis for it.
monks baseline damage is lower than paladins baseline damage. And paladin has bunch of paladin features that dont rely on spell slots. lay on hands, channel divinity, aura, blessed strikes. And, as you point out, their spells are more effective. staggering smite for example is just a straight up 100% better stunning strike, it lasts longer, targets a weaker save, and does extra damage. so if you are thinking of 1 ki, as 1 spell slot, you arent really accurately evaluating things.
1ki is roughly equal to 1 level 1 spell. possibly level 2.
monks baseline damage is lower than paladins baseline damage.
No it isn't. Without spending resources, without using polearm mastery (which is a bad idea for a paladin because smites and lay on hands cost bonus actions) or two weapon fighting (because paladins don't get the fighting style), the monk, without using resources, comes out ahead of paladins in tiers 1, 2, and 4 (tier 3, because of improved smite, does result in marginally higher damage for a few levels) and with deflect attacks is significantly more durable.
ok, lets go through it. first off supposedly most encounters last 4 turns.
[omitted purely because of overuse of paragraph breaks]
You provide a perfect example not only of how Monk Bad sorts ignore how Monks are entirely comparable with other martials without using a single point*, but also how the Monk Bad crowd will purposefully expend the Monk's resource as rapidly as possible and then complain when they run out quickly.
*To remind everyone who cares about reality: at the point where Monks have nine Discipline Points total, three d8 attacks match two d12 attacks and add their modifier a third time on top of that. One-third of the nine extra d8 attacks via Flurry of Blows is enough to surpass the extra two d12 attacks from a Fighter's one use of Action Surge. But somehow the Fighter is perfectly fine with one Action Surge...
monks baseline damage (no ki) is signifigantly lower than other martials and they dont have mastery. fighters dont need to use action surge to compete with monks using ki. Action surge just puts them ahead. A monk without ki is essentially a twf barbarian without rage, a twf fighter without extra feats or a fightingstyle second wind, tactical shift/mind.
to be 100% honest, monk is OK damage wise now with full ki, but they havent resolved any KI issues here. they havent improved baseline no ki monk damage, (though they have increased their ability to escape, and be even less useful when they have no ki) Which is not the end of the world, but since they say their goal was to make monk less ki starved, in actuall play it hasnt really changed, except for people who use to spam stunning strike on every attack, its still almost exactly the same.
most players will be using ki rarely unless party rests after every fight, and they will therefore be doing less damage than other classes in these situations, since the current balance has them matching others with full ki in each fight.
the thing the current monk can do to best make the class a lot more smooth an effecient is start of with one level of fighter. get nick mastery, topple, and whatever other mastery floats your boat. get second wind, fighting style two weapon fighting, and throwing fighting style and tavern brawler.
that monk will have a much better baseline damage when low ki, and therefore be better able to decide when to turn it up or down. the baseline monk will be subpar to other classes when they have to conserve.
But its clearly better than before.
overall my main beef with the class is the playstyle is now the only martial that doesnt offer signifigant per turn tactical choices.
monks baseline damage is lower than paladins baseline damage.
No it isn't. Without spending resources, without using polearm mastery (which is a bad idea for a paladin because smites and lay on hands cost bonus actions) or two weapon fighting (because paladins don't get the fighting style), the monk, without using resources, comes out ahead of paladins in tiers 1, 2, and 4 (tier 3, because of improved smite, does result in marginally higher damage for a few levels) and with deflect attacks is significantly more durable.
Curious what happens in T4 that changes the math for the monk without using resources? And I am also curious, what weapon combo and/or feats you may take with the monk vs the ones you will take with the paladin?
ok, lets go through it. first off supposedly most encounters last 4 turns.
[omitted purely because of overuse of paragraph breaks]
You provide a perfect example not only of how Monk Bad sorts ignore how Monks are entirely comparable with other martials without using a single point*, but also how the Monk Bad crowd will purposefully expend the Monk's resource as rapidly as possible and then complain when they run out quickly.
*To remind everyone who cares about reality: at the point where Monks have nine Discipline Points total, three d8 attacks match two d12 attacks and add their modifier a third time on top of that. One-third of the nine extra d8 attacks via Flurry of Blows is enough to surpass the extra two d12 attacks from a Fighter's one use of Action Surge. But somehow the Fighter is perfectly fine with one Action Surge...
overall my main beef with the class is the playstyle is now the only martial that doesnt offer signifigant per turn tactical choices.
Disagree with this last statement. You have many per turn tactical choices. Unarmed strikes are now viable for shoving and grappling with monk so any attack can become a shove or grapple, bonus action can be used to attack, or dash, or disengage. You can use your action to dodge and then attack as a bonus action still. The monk has arguably some of the most tactical decisions to make turn to turn of any martial without spending resources and get more when they start spending resources.
(Not willing to speak on the math because I have not done the math or the builds yet).
Paladin with Improved Smite, making two d12 attacks = 2d12 + 2d8 + 10 = 2-24 + 2-16 + 10 = 14-50
Monk with d12 Martial Arts, making three d12 attacks = 3d12 + 15 = 3-36 + 15 = 18-51
So no feats, you aren't using GWM or the Paladin's Weapon Mastery, or fighting styles all of which require no resources and add to the average damage. Got it math is wrong. So monk gets their bonus action attack from their martial arts feature, but Paladin's don't get their fighting style or weapon mastery feature.
Paladin with Improved Smite, making two d12 attacks = 2d12 + 2d8 + 10 = 2-24 + 2-16 + 10 = 14-50
Monk with d12 Martial Arts, making three d12 attacks = 3d12 + 15 = 3-36 + 15 = 18-51
So no feats, you aren't using GWM or Weapon Mastery, or fighting styles all of which require no resources. Got it math is wrong.
And there are no feats the Monk can benefit from because...well, how else are people going to hatejerk about the Monk if they can't rely on lies and ignorance?
I didn't say that did I? Go back up to my original question. The first post you quoted. What did it ask? What did you fail to provide?
Paladin with Improved Smite, making two d12 attacks = 2d12 + 2d8 + 10 = 2-24 + 2-16 + 10 = 14-50
Monk with d12 Martial Arts, making three d12 attacks = 3d12 + 15 = 3-36 + 15 = 18-51
So no feats, you aren't using GWM or the Paladin's Weapon Mastery, or fighting styles all of which require no resources and add to the average damage. Got it math is wrong. So monk gets their bonus action attack from their martial arts feature, but Paladin's don't get their fighting style or weapon mastery feature.
This is one of the things that hurt monk. Feats were designed for weapon users not the monk. And the monk had a harder time taking feats than many martials due to their MAD nature, so even if there was a great unarmed feat it was more costly. I'm curious to see if there are more feats that are martial neutral in one. Like the charger feat in one IIRC will work fine unarmed and unlike the 5e baseline charger its pretty good.
So, as someone who doesn't subscribe to the victimization complex over a class no one makes anyone play, let's take a rational look at the changes:
Monk weapons returning was a reasonable return.
Unsurprisingly, rather than balance an unbalanced feature to not make it broken with the Monk but also not broken with other classes (Weapon Mastery), they just cut Monks' access to it. Better that then risk the wrath of power-gamers who want their 6+ Topple checks a turn.
Having a free Dash is largely pointless for Monks, because they already get increased movement speed at Level 2. Same with Disengage, because then you're pushing for a playstyle where the Monk deliberately hinders their own damage output to placate a crowd who thinks they die instantly against any threat.
Giving a full Discipline restore for completely free at the start of Initiative is completely silly, and just panders to the crowd who thinks Monks should get to have five times the resources as everyone else when they don't need more resources. (It's decoupled from Short Rests, probably to pander to the same people who pretend the Short Rest mechanic doesn't exist.)
Ah yes, three levels to give anyone a reaction that protects against any physical damage ever.
So how many other classes get control abilities that just tack on damage if the target passes its save? Wait, none whatsoever? Colour me surprised. It's just another stupid addition meant to placate people offended that they can't blow every point they have as a Monk on four Stunning Strikes a turn.
And here we have the obligatory "DPR is everything" addition in that Flurry of Blows gets an upgrade to hit three times. Wait, I thought the problem was that Monks have no points ever? Doesn't this just mean Monks are more reliant on the resource they totally have none of for DPR?
The best kind of upgrade is one that exists just to make you a taxi for other party members. Which, again, is using up all of those Zero Points the Monk has.
Self-curing conditions without even a bonus action? How lucky! Of course, this means you can't remove a condition before you do anything the condition will impact, but yanno, zero action/resource management = invariably good~
And the magical "why should I only get one bonus action per turn like everyone else?" option from the Hand subclass. But Quivering Palm still doesn't do literally infinity damage, boo hiss~
You know what all of this lacks? New options. You don't get ways to benefit skills like other classes have gotten, because the Monk Bad crowd only cares about combat optimization. You don't get new combat tricks, because the Monk Bad crowd only wants to have high DPR and one powerful condition. You don't get new Discipline abilities, because the Monk Bad crowd wants minimal options as long as those options are free. And at the end of the day nothing has changed about one of the more common "complaints", and you would think even further tying damage output to using one specific limited bonus action would be something they'd care about, but...nah, lookit free stuff you get from a three-level dip.
Instead of making new toys for people who actually play Monk, you get changes no Monk player ever needed, that revolve entirely around the kind of player who has one or two "Big Fights" then ignores every other gameplay mechanic that exists in the game. Hooray.
New options are missing most likely because they were busy trying to fix all the old problems. Plenty of suggestions for new options happened by people who can see 5e monk is bad, but WotC clearly focused on fixing the features it already had and didn’t want to make the monk more complex.
Monk Weapons return was balanced by giving up Weapon Mastery, which can be regained with a feat or a 1 level dip. Power-gamers are going to power game.
A free bonus action dash is necessary because increased movement a 2nd isn’t double your distance, and now having both vastly increases monk mobility. This mobility can be used outside of combat.
Giving Full DP at the start of 1 battle per day is good for surprise fights and back to back combats without a short rest.
While I was against Deflect Attacks, Deflect Missiles was practically a ribbon for how often it actually came up. Deflect attack is great for monks who don’t want to be skirmishers to help them just stay in the front line even though their hp and AC are lower than other frontline classes.
Many classes still deal damage a successful save of their control options. So the ball drop on the monk is that Stunning Strike only deals damage on a success save. It should also deal damage when they fail the save. Paladin smites and Battle Master maneuvers deal damage and then do the added effect if they fail the save. That’s how SS should work.
Gaining extra attack to FoB isn’t something I was in favor of them doing, but it is a way to improve Monks higher tier damage. It doesn’t make them more reassure dependent since it’s attached to something they were likely already using.
I’m not sure why you are complaining about the improvement to step of the wind because it is literally a way for you to do something outside of combat. It can be used to help those weaker party members climb and/or transverse obstacles without expending spell slots.
The condition removal at the end of your turn is worse, but I think they did that because it becomes too strong at the start of your turn and it’s problematic (requires more text) if it can be done during your turn as an action or bonus action. During your turn is always strange because it becomes a question, “am I allowed to use my action this way?” I’m charmed and the person who charmed me asked/told me to use my action to do a thing do I have to the do the thing or can I use this action to stop me from having to do the thing?
Finally the Hand’s SotW plus other bonus action is just improved mobility. It’s great if you are playing the skirmisher style of hit and run, but there is a question of if you have to pay that DP to get the full Step of the Wind.
Quivering Palm should have never done infinity damage, but I would have liked it if it cause the unconscious condition on a failed save. I do like you can give up an attack to to activate it instead of your entire action. That also improves Monks high tier DPR.
Also please stop acting like you are the only monk player on these forums, or that anyone who doesn’t agree with you isn’t a monk player. The reality is you didn’t get the changes you wanted. Technically neither did I, but this Monk is better than the 5e monk and technically wouldn’t disrupt your monk play style at all. The only new toy the last Monk UA gave was weapon masteries which to me wasn’t that great anyway. Many of us wanted new toys like alternatives to stunning strike. At least 5 of use put out builds that included all kinds of new toys. WotC didn’t apparently didn’t want those kinds of changes.
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They can get Weapon Mastery too now, via the Weapon Master feat, and it's a half-feat so doing so isn't even going to stop you from hitting 26/24 provided you start with 17 Dex and 16 Wis. Which is a lot more reasonable to do now that you can grapple with Dex and disengage for free. Picking up WM means you can actually have 6 attacks at level 10 - two Nick scimitars (or daggers - refluffed as cestuses/punch-daggers?) for three attacks with your Action (Attack + EA + Offhand), and 3 kicks/elbows/knees/etc with your Bonus Action (HD-FoB). This all costs you a single DP, and you can spend 1 more DP to throw a Stunning Strike attempt at the beginning of that - if it succeeds, all 5 of the other attacks are made with advantage, but even if it fails you get to add another MA+Wis to the pile. And every last one of those attacks will be doing longsword damage (d8s) at 10. That's 7d8+33 subclassless at level 10, for 2 ki, not counting your reaction - and 6d8+30 for 1 DP. A subclassless Barbarian at the same level with PAM and GWM tops out at 2d10+1d4+28, though they're at least attacking with advantage.
An extra bonus action on top of that would be way too powerful imo. I wouldn't mind an extra reaction though, so they can deflect two attacks, or deflect+OA.
People tend to focus on the combat pillar because that's usually where you can, y'know, actually die. Or at least underperform and feel worthless. If you fail the exploration or social pillar it usually means either that someone else in the party picks up your slack, or the DM applies a consequence of some kind but the story ultimately keeps moving.
Not to mention that Monk speed (and ability to do things like superjump and run up a waterfall) does actually give them something unique to do when exploring. And if you want skills on top of that, we all get 1st-level feats and better races now.
Maybe bonus action unarmed strike with PD is not the answer. If you use the new step of the wind combo for dash and disengage you can attack and run far away without any risk of ever getting hit for the same ki cost. For deflect attack to be useful you have to get hit. Patient Defense is probably the least used bonus action and i dont see much of a reason to use it over other features. I am hoping they can find a way to make it better is all. Maybe the best way to make that better is to unclog that bonus action. I dont know what the answer is.
So, minor thought: suppose they add a little bit to the bonus action attack and FoB that you can't use your Action to Dodge on the turn you use them? Just because I feel like as-is it makes it too easy to just keep toggling Dodge on while still attacking, which is very much not what we want from Dodge.
Um... have you actually looked at the subclasses? With base monk features, it's not possible to spend more than 3 discipline points (1 on a bonus action, 1 on a stunning strike, 1 on deflection) in a round, so in a three round combat that's 9, unless you're really spamming the save reroll, which is not likely, and since you can recover DP when rolling initiative, we don't really have to care about multiple encounters per short rest unless it's at least 3+(number of short rest) total encounters, which is ... rare. Thus:
Honestly, I don't understand why people make such a big deal out of "running out" of Ki/Discipline when a 10th level Paladin has fewer spell slots than a 10th level Monk has Ki points and- unless you remember the Tasha's feature that, notably, doesn't appear to be making the transition to the new core- no way to recharge them before end of day and yet that's apparently fine. They get some more DPR out of them, but regardless they can still burn through them in short order at most tiers.
You're correct it's the way the game designers expected it to be played. It's not the way anyone plays the game because even if you're using a 6 encounter day (which the majority of people, including most published adventures, do not do) that makes every encounter medium, and medium encounters do not last 3 rounds unless something makes engaging impractical, in which case your monk isn't spending 3 discipline points per turn.
I suppose it was my bad to expect a reasonable basis for it.
ok, lets go through it. first off supposedly most encounters last 4 turns.
round 1 elemental monk
1 ki to start elemental powers, 1 ki to BA 1 ki to stunning strike, thats 3 ki round one
2nd round 2 ki
3rd round 2 ki
4rth round 2 ki.
thats 9 ki per fight
this means the baseline monk that most people do DPR calculations on, isnt really possible until level 9. untill level 9 you will always be below this, and be doing less damage. than projected.
This means you need rest after every fight, except one time per day, you can avoid this. Barbarian does as much or more damage, and their version of metabolism scales to +5, and they get a whole fights worth when they are low. (instead of 4 hits) Fighter does your full ki damage without using action surge
this means you used no other monk features;
if you deflected damage any time during that, 1 more ki.
if you chose to use Environmental burst, for and advantageous AOE situation, thats 2 more ki.
open hand monk;
+4ki per round to quivering. with the 2ki baseline, they will hit 0 ki in 3.5 rounds. if not earlier.
shadow monk
1 ki for a shadow,
1 ki to teleport and take unarmed strike as a BA.
astral monk,
1 ki to use arms,
2ki to use arms+face and body
5ki to use the full power.
mercy monk
+1 ki per round to harm
+1 ki to heal
5ki to ressurect
so basically monk will always have benefit for more Ki, there is no need to make their ki issues even worse. or lower thier level 11 ki to dps effeciency.
you say they cant run out, but you point out 9-16 ki use. you seem to be thinking only about running out in one encounter. You generally are supposed to have 2-3 encounters between short rests. Which means by your own science, they will tend to be running out the second half of the day, either being ineffective for one fight, or splitting it up and being half as effective or a third for multiple fights.
also, the perfect self design encourages them to have bad experiences and go zero ki every fight, while only having 4 ki.
The KI design is still really really bad. i would not make it worse with any cost increases.
Stop caring about damage.
The rogue is always behind martial classes, and it gives up damage for additional options.
An hour-long "lunch break" isn't always something you can plan for if you're a special ops team on a time-sensitive mission to try and save the world. So while I'm glad they gave every class a reason to take one now, I'm even happier that they've given the monk more resourceless actions too.
I'll also add that these changes to the base class doesn't stop subclasses from getting the cool out-of-combat things you seem to want, e.g. Shadow Monks make for fantastic scouts because they can create magical darkness without making a sound which they can see through and even move with them as they infiltrate an enemy stronghold, or Mercy Monks can be the village doctor healing people and curing diseases all day long etc.
This is a good monk. It scales way better, it can do a lot. It is super flexible. I would 100% play this monk. Probably elemental still because I like that one. But even the way of the hand feels super cool. Being able to disengage as a bonus action regardless of if I spent ki or not is huge. I can 3 attack and still disengage without any ki cost. And with 10 ki I can do even more.
Not sure on the wording for heightened discipline. Do I spend 1 ki and get 3 flurry of blow attacks or do I need to spend 2 ki to get 3 attacks?
It does lack some out of combat options, and lack of utility I am thankful seems solved by the change to the ability to grapple and shove with unarmed as a monk much easier.
monks baseline damage is lower than paladins baseline damage. And paladin has bunch of paladin features that dont rely on spell slots. lay on hands, channel divinity, aura, blessed strikes. And, as you point out, their spells are more effective. staggering smite for example is just a straight up 100% better stunning strike, it lasts longer, targets a weaker save, and does extra damage. so if you are thinking of 1 ki, as 1 spell slot, you arent really accurately evaluating things.
1ki is roughly equal to 1 level 1 spell. possibly level 2.
No it isn't. Without spending resources, without using polearm mastery (which is a bad idea for a paladin because smites and lay on hands cost bonus actions) or two weapon fighting (because paladins don't get the fighting style), the monk, without using resources, comes out ahead of paladins in tiers 1, 2, and 4 (tier 3, because of improved smite, does result in marginally higher damage for a few levels) and with deflect attacks is significantly more durable.
monks baseline damage (no ki) is signifigantly lower than other martials and they dont have mastery. fighters dont need to use action surge to compete with monks using ki. Action surge just puts them ahead. A monk without ki is essentially a twf barbarian without rage, a twf fighter without extra feats or a fightingstyle second wind, tactical shift/mind.
to be 100% honest, monk is OK damage wise now with full ki, but they havent resolved any KI issues here. they havent improved baseline no ki monk damage, (though they have increased their ability to escape, and be even less useful when they have no ki) Which is not the end of the world, but since they say their goal was to make monk less ki starved, in actuall play it hasnt really changed, except for people who use to spam stunning strike on every attack, its still almost exactly the same.
most players will be using ki rarely unless party rests after every fight, and they will therefore be doing less damage than other classes in these situations, since the current balance has them matching others with full ki in each fight.
the thing the current monk can do to best make the class a lot more smooth an effecient is start of with one level of fighter. get nick mastery, topple, and whatever other mastery floats your boat. get second wind, fighting style two weapon fighting, and throwing fighting style and tavern brawler.
that monk will have a much better baseline damage when low ki, and therefore be better able to decide when to turn it up or down. the baseline monk will be subpar to other classes when they have to conserve.
But its clearly better than before.
overall my main beef with the class is the playstyle is now the only martial that doesnt offer signifigant per turn tactical choices.
Curious what happens in T4 that changes the math for the monk without using resources? And I am also curious, what weapon combo and/or feats you may take with the monk vs the ones you will take with the paladin?
Disagree with this last statement. You have many per turn tactical choices. Unarmed strikes are now viable for shoving and grappling with monk so any attack can become a shove or grapple, bonus action can be used to attack, or dash, or disengage. You can use your action to dodge and then attack as a bonus action still. The monk has arguably some of the most tactical decisions to make turn to turn of any martial without spending resources and get more when they start spending resources.
(Not willing to speak on the math because I have not done the math or the builds yet).
So no feats, you aren't using GWM or the Paladin's Weapon Mastery, or fighting styles all of which require no resources and add to the average damage. Got it math is wrong. So monk gets their bonus action attack from their martial arts feature, but Paladin's don't get their fighting style or weapon mastery feature.
I didn't say that did I? Go back up to my original question. The first post you quoted. What did it ask? What did you fail to provide?
This is one of the things that hurt monk. Feats were designed for weapon users not the monk. And the monk had a harder time taking feats than many martials due to their MAD nature, so even if there was a great unarmed feat it was more costly. I'm curious to see if there are more feats that are martial neutral in one. Like the charger feat in one IIRC will work fine unarmed and unlike the 5e baseline charger its pretty good.
New options are missing most likely because they were busy trying to fix all the old problems. Plenty of suggestions for new options happened by people who can see 5e monk is bad, but WotC clearly focused on fixing the features it already had and didn’t want to make the monk more complex.
Also please stop acting like you are the only monk player on these forums, or that anyone who doesn’t agree with you isn’t a monk player. The reality is you didn’t get the changes you wanted. Technically neither did I, but this Monk is better than the 5e monk and technically wouldn’t disrupt your monk play style at all. The only new toy the last Monk UA gave was weapon masteries which to me wasn’t that great anyway. Many of us wanted new toys like alternatives to stunning strike. At least 5 of use put out builds that included all kinds of new toys. WotC didn’t apparently didn’t want those kinds of changes.