Paladin with Improved Smite, making two d12 attacks = 2d12 + 2d8 + 10 = 2-24 + 2-16 + 10 = 14-50
Monk with d12 Martial Arts, making three d12 attacks = 3d12 + 15 = 3-36 + 15 = 18-51
So no feats, you aren't using GWM or the Paladin's Weapon Mastery, or fighting styles all of which require no resources and add to the average damage. Got it math is wrong. So monk gets their bonus action attack from their martial arts feature, but Paladin's don't get their fighting style or weapon mastery feature.
This is one of the things that hurt monk. Feats were designed for weapon users not the monk. And the monk had a harder time taking feats than many martials due to their MAD nature, so even if there was a great unarmed feat it was more costly. I'm curious to see if there are more feats that are martial neutral in one. Like the charger feat in one IIRC will work fine unarmed and unlike the 5e baseline charger its pretty good.
I do love the fact that even if they keep the martial weapon requirement that monk now actually qualifies for it because it has light weapons martial weapons which is really cool. I just kind of wish there was a reason to USE weapons, but at least there isn't a real reason to NOT use weapons if I don't want to grapple or shove. I can always run around with a dagger or something if I want which can change the damage type so that is cool.
(I do want to be clear and on the record, I don't think this monk is bad, I think they could probably just print it and it would be fine, I would LIKE to see some more out of combat stuff, but I think this works as is and the out of combat stuff can always come from background and race and even a feat I take at level 1 and 4).
Why is their a debate about no resource damage comparing classes that have resources. Are we imagining a combat that they both ran out? If so we have to compare what effects their resource expenditure had on the combat before they ran out. We also have to ask is damage the only thing that matters?
monks baseline damage is lower than paladins baseline damage.
No it isn't. Without spending resources, without using polearm mastery (which is a bad idea for a paladin because smites and lay on hands cost bonus actions) or two weapon fighting (because paladins don't get the fighting style), the monk, without using resources, comes out ahead of paladins in tiers 1, 2, and 4 (tier 3, because of improved smite, does result in marginally higher damage for a few levels) and with deflect attacks is significantly more durable.
not using PAM is choice they can make depending on their prefered playing style. it isnt objectively bad or objectively good. TWF isnt bad. Talking about the special options that paladin has via BA is not an argument for how good monk is, the fact that it has less options, doesnt mean its actually better. The Paladin that builds for twf / pam has can burn more spells without worrying about its baseline damage. They can save SMITEs for criticals, or use spells in other ways besides shoring up their dps.
Why is their a debate about no resource damage comparing classes that have resources. Are we imagining a combat that they both ran out? If so we have to compare what effects their resource expenditure had on the combat before they ran out. We also have to ask is damage the only thing that matters?
well the reason is that the current monk will likely run out every fight until level 8, and monk mostly has only one pool to drawn on.
Why is their a debate about no resource damage comparing classes that have resources. Are we imagining a combat that they both ran out? If so we have to compare what effects their resource expenditure had on the combat before they ran out. We also have to ask is damage the only thing that matters?
well the reason is that the current monk will likely run out every fight until level 8, and monk mostly has only one pool to drawn on.
You are aware you don't have to turn the faucet on all the way, correct?
Off the top of my head there are some great new versions of feats in previous UA's that help the monk quite nicely now that the monk has acess to some martial weapons.
The New charger feat gives once per turn 1d8 damage and a 10 foot push on the attack action, and +1 to dex
The new tavern brawler gives a 5 foot push once per turn and a re roll of 1's on unarmed strikes damage die.
Weapon mastery feat gives +1 to dex and weapon masteries ( nick for two weapon fighting or topple with quaterstaff )
New Grappler feat gives unarmed strike damage and a once per turn grapple attempt on an unarmed strike, +1 to dex, advantage on attacks against a grappled creature, and not being slowed when moving a grappled creature that is your size. With the monks movement this becomes incredible. Grapple a guy and drag his ass 60 feet back and forth through a spike growth. Or grapple a guy, run up a cliff, drop him for damage, slow fall down and punch the prone guy with advantage. Weaponizing your movement is a highly underrated tactic and this is gold for a monk now that they can use dex for their grapple save dc.
Martial arts is still boring though. I would love to see some choke holds, flying leg kicks, roundhouse kicks and other martial arts moves that have specific game mechanics attached to them. However, no one ever gets everything they want but i think there is enough here that provide good improvement for the monk.
I have to say this is an improvement over UA6 (low bar). Lets look through all the issues 5E Monk had for comparison.
Monk is still MAD using DEX to hit and WIS for DC. But because survivability (Disengage, Deflect Attack, Dodge+FOB) is greatly improved there is less need to have perfect AC from each ASI. This makes feats more plausible.
Melee Survivability is astounding. At level 1, a Monk can Dodge + BA attack. At level 2, a skirmisher can disengage. At level 3, Deflect Attack reduces damage by ~8 for each Reaction. At Level 10 Dodge + FoB is still respectable damage. I would not be surprised if the numbers for Deflect Attack get reduced from 1d10+DEX+Monk Levels down to Martial Arts Dice + Monk Level.
The Bonus Action is still clogged. As has been noted, the optimum strategy is still FoB, with niche uses of everything else. I doubt WoTC will risk development time on changing the Bonus Action features. But I still hope Patient Defense gets modified to work with Deflect Attack.
Ki Points have been bandaged. SoTW and PD provide options when out of Points. Uncanny Metabolism provides a backup for 1 encounter per day. The Monk is still a Short Rest class while most classes are Long Rest based.
Monk damage in Tier 3 + 4 appears to be fixed by Magic Items (announced but unseen) and FoB adding a 3rd attack.
Self Restoration (aka Stillness of Mind) and Disciplined Survivor (aka Diamond Soul) overlap as protection from status. I'd much rather trade Self Restoration for 1 or 2 Saving Throw proficiencies.
Stunning Strike seems balanced as 1/turn Stun or damage. But it still seems monotonous compared to Rogue's Cunning Strikes. I'd like the option to impose other conditions (Dazed) at a different cost.
Monks still do not offer much outside of combat. Even Barbarian and Fighter got features to work out of combat. Monk's most unique out of combat feature, Acrobatic Movement, appears so late to be negligible. I really wish Acrobatic Movement appeared at an earlier level.
Overall I am thankful for the UA8. There is still room for improvement.
The latest version of Open Hand still seems underwhelming. Each feature seems disjointed.
The level 3 feature is tied to FoB, so if you are out of Points or use PD/SoTW, you effectively have no subclass. Picking up a single Weapon Mastery through a Feat or multiclass does the job debatably as well. At least Addle no longer requires a save.
Wholeness of Body is a Bonus Action heal, which means in combat it would take the place of FoB. Healing is better outside of combat. At level 6 it appears to be ~34 HP. That is comparable to Lay on Hands. Not too bad, but not unique.
Fleet Step is interesting in that it is a free Dash every turn. Reliable Double Speed. There are some interesting Grapples that could be done (Spike Growth).
Quivering Palm is less clunky, but just boring damage.
In less than an hour, I haphazardly threw together an alternative Open Hand subclass that is simpler, more cohesive, and effective.
At Level 3 you gain a single Weapon Mastery (Sap, Slow, Topple, or Push) that can only be applied to your Unarmed Strikes. The Weapon Mastery can be applied when a creature fails a saving throw against Grapple or Shove.
At Level 6 you gain a second Weapon Mastery without restrictions that can only be applied to your Unarmed Strikes. You may only use one Weapon Mastery per attack. When you successfully Grapple or Shove, you may deal a Martial Arts dice of damage to the target.
Fleet Step is unchanged.
Quivering Palm You gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. Once per turn when you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can force the target to make a CON save or gain a level of Exhaustion.
The latest version of Open Hand still seems underwhelming. Each feature seems disjointed.
The level 3 feature is tied to FoB, so if you are out of Points or use PD/SoTW, you effectively have no subclass. Picking up a single Weapon Mastery through a Feat or multiclass does the job debatably as well. At least Addle no longer requires a save.
Wholeness of Body is a Bonus Action heal, which means in combat it would take the place of FoB. Healing is better outside of combat. At level 6 it appears to be ~34 HP. That is comparable to Lay on Hands. Not too bad, but not unique.
Fleet Step is interesting in that it is a free Dash every turn. Reliable Double Speed. There are some interesting Grapples that could be done (Spike Growth).
Quivering Palm is less clunky, but just boring damage.
In less than an hour, I haphazardly threw together an alternative Open Hand subclass that is simpler, more cohesive, and effective.
At Level 3 you gain a single Weapon Mastery (Sap, Slow, Topple, or Push) that can only be applied to your Unarmed Strikes. The Weapon Mastery can be applied when a creature fails a saving throw against Grapple or Shove.
At Level 6 you gain a second Weapon Mastery without restrictions that can only be applied to your Unarmed Strikes. You may only use one Weapon Mastery per attack. When you successfully Grapple or Shove, you may deal a Martial Arts dice of damage to the target.
Fleet Step is unchanged.
Quivering Palm You gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. Once per turn when you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can force the target to make a CON save or gain a level of Exhaustion.
With the open hand/warrior of the hand remember that the new flurry of blows does not require an attack action.
This means you can start with the flurry causing the open palm effects and then attack. In base PH most of your attacks were done by the time you knocked them prone etc. Now you can knock them prone on the first attack. With quivering palm you can now deliver its damage in a single round, you will be burning through discipline points fast but the damage out put will be high.(though its level 17 for that part).
I am not sure it is as good as shadow for example but its better than it looks I think. I'll have to play with it to see how it pans out.
The latest version of Open Hand still seems underwhelming. Each feature seems disjointed.
The level 3 feature is tied to FoB, so if you are out of Points or use PD/SoTW, you effectively have no subclass. Picking up a single Weapon Mastery through a Feat or multiclass does the job debatably as well. At least Addle no longer requires a save.
Wholeness of Body is a Bonus Action heal, which means in combat it would take the place of FoB. Healing is better outside of combat. At level 6 it appears to be ~34 HP. That is comparable to Lay on Hands. Not too bad, but not unique.
Fleet Step is interesting in that it is a free Dash every turn. Reliable Double Speed. There are some interesting Grapples that could be done (Spike Growth).
Quivering Palm is less clunky, but just boring damage.
In less than an hour, I haphazardly threw together an alternative Open Hand subclass that is simpler, more cohesive, and effective.
At Level 3 you gain a single Weapon Mastery (Sap, Slow, Topple, or Push) that can only be applied to your Unarmed Strikes. The Weapon Mastery can be applied when a creature fails a saving throw against Grapple or Shove.
At Level 6 you gain a second Weapon Mastery without restrictions that can only be applied to your Unarmed Strikes. You may only use one Weapon Mastery per attack. When you successfully Grapple or Shove, you may deal a Martial Arts dice of damage to the target.
Fleet Step is unchanged.
Quivering Palm You gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. Once per turn when you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can force the target to make a CON save or gain a level of Exhaustion.
With the open hand/warrior of the hand remember that the new flurry of blows does not require an attack action.
This means you can start with the flurry causing the open palm effects and then attack. In base PH most of your attacks were done by the time you knocked them prone etc. Now you can knock them prone on the first attack. With quivering palm you can now deliver its damage in a single round, you will be burning through discipline points fast but the damage out put will be high.(though its level 17 for that part).
I am not sure it is as good as shadow for example but its better than it looks I think. I'll have to play with it to see how it pans out.
its ok, its more that this is kinda baseline functionality now. any demi martial, other than rogue (even war clerics and warlocks) can just pull out a topple weapon and topple, or use a push weapon with no save.
so the open hand monk, for its main feature, unlocks a worse version of mastery. If you sub fighter 1 level you can literally whip out a maul, spend two attacks trying to topple it, stow it, and flurry of blows. with a 2d6, at level 5.
and not just fighter, barbarian, Ranger, warlock, paladin, can all do this out the box. Sooo feels a bit weird to be the defining feature of open hand.
Is this monk too strong? It is tough as nails, but it loses Opportunity attacks if it uses deflect attack so that seems a fair trade off. The level 10 upgrade does feel like it comes online a little too early. Mobility is definitely improved, but you still lose out on damage by a lot at level 10+ if you try to utilize it, the ki trade off feels way better though 3 attacks vs dodge, disengage and 2x MA die Temp HP seems like it may be worth it.
I am torn between, is this too strong or just good choices are good and we want things to be an actual choice.
Mobility is definitely improved, but you still lose out on damage by a lot at level 10+ if you try to utilize it,
Not if you're Open Hand - at 11 they can attack+flurry+dash all they want. Or, if you're willing to spend a bit more DP, they can attack+flurry+dash+disengage.
The others aren't quite as mobile, but they may not need to be. For Mercy, if the target isn't immune to being poisoned they can just hang out in melee, the disadvantage it grants is equivalent to free dodge. Shadow is the same with their magical darkness, except they also get advantage thanks to being able to see through it. And 4E won't need to disengage at all, nor run as far, because they'll have push and reach.
So after Mulling over it for a while their are things I would still like changed.
Acrobatic Movement needs to be moved down to 7th level. I would prefer 5th, but I understand that might viewed as too strong or just too much going on at 5th. This would not replace Evasion it would just be an addition to it. 5e Monks have 2 features at 7th. I think Acrobatic Movement is really good as a OoC ability and Monk is still lacking in that department. So getting it 2 levels sooner would be nice.
Deflect Energy needs to be moved down to 9th. This is to fill the hole that would be created by moving Acrobatic Movement to 5th or 7th, and because 13th is just too late this feature with the way magic weapons appear to function moving forward.
Self Restoration should move up to 13th to fill that hole and be at the start of your turn you remove one effect causing you to be charmed, frightened, or poisoned.
Quivering Palm that has been applied but has not not been activated for at least 1 min should cause the Unconscious Condition on a failed save. The creature remains unconscious for Monk level minutes. If the creature takes damage while unconscious from this feature and has at least 1hp remaining it can make another Con save to attempt to wake up and remove the unconscious condition. Alternatively another creature can use their action to attempt to shake the creature awake, the creature may make a Con Save at advantage to remove the unconscious condition if they have at least 1hp.
Mobility is definitely improved, but you still lose out on damage by a lot at level 10+ if you try to utilize it,
Not if you're Open Hand - at 11 they can attack+flurry+dash all they want. Or, if you're willing to spend a bit more DP, they can attack+flurry+dash+disengage.
The others aren't quite as mobile, but they may not need to be. For Mercy, if the target isn't immune to being poisoned they can just hang out in melee, the disadvantage it grants is equivalent to free dodge. Shadow is the same except with their magical darkness, except they also get advantage thanks to being able to see through it. And 4E won't need to disengage at all, nor run as far, because they'll have push and reach.
Definitely true at 11 for Open hand, and the others is true as well at 11, and I did say 10+ not just 10. It is just all around interesting situation I think.
As a rogue, I will sneak attack with a whip. Melee attack from 10ft away. Ha! You can reduce the damage but not slap it back in my face!
If the game was geared for PvP it would be OP. But honestly against most creatures the monk is better saving it’s DP for FoB.
I think the value is less in the redirect and more in the damage prevention which doesn't cost a DP just the reaction, but it does lose out on AoO to do so.
I do love the fact that even if they keep the martial weapon requirement that monk now actually qualifies for it because it has light weapons martial weapons which is really cool. I just kind of wish there was a reason to USE weapons, but at least there isn't a real reason to NOT use weapons if I don't want to grapple or shove. I can always run around with a dagger or something if I want which can change the damage type so that is cool.
(I do want to be clear and on the record, I don't think this monk is bad, I think they could probably just print it and it would be fine, I would LIKE to see some more out of combat stuff, but I think this works as is and the out of combat stuff can always come from background and race and even a feat I take at level 1 and 4).
Why is their a debate about no resource damage comparing classes that have resources. Are we imagining a combat that they both ran out? If so we have to compare what effects their resource expenditure had on the combat before they ran out. We also have to ask is damage the only thing that matters?
not using PAM is choice they can make depending on their prefered playing style. it isnt objectively bad or objectively good. TWF isnt bad. Talking about the special options that paladin has via BA is not an argument for how good monk is, the fact that it has less options, doesnt mean its actually better. The Paladin that builds for twf / pam has can burn more spells without worrying about its baseline damage. They can save SMITEs for criticals, or use spells in other ways besides shoring up their dps.
well the reason is that the current monk will likely run out every fight until level 8, and monk mostly has only one pool to drawn on.
You are aware you don't have to turn the faucet on all the way, correct?
Off the top of my head there are some great new versions of feats in previous UA's that help the monk quite nicely now that the monk has acess to some martial weapons.
The New charger feat gives once per turn 1d8 damage and a 10 foot push on the attack action, and +1 to dex
The new tavern brawler gives a 5 foot push once per turn and a re roll of 1's on unarmed strikes damage die.
Weapon mastery feat gives +1 to dex and weapon masteries ( nick for two weapon fighting or topple with quaterstaff )
New Grappler feat gives unarmed strike damage and a once per turn grapple attempt on an unarmed strike, +1 to dex, advantage on attacks against a grappled creature, and not being slowed when moving a grappled creature that is your size. With the monks movement this becomes incredible. Grapple a guy and drag his ass 60 feet back and forth through a spike growth. Or grapple a guy, run up a cliff, drop him for damage, slow fall down and punch the prone guy with advantage. Weaponizing your movement is a highly underrated tactic and this is gold for a monk now that they can use dex for their grapple save dc.
Martial arts is still boring though. I would love to see some choke holds, flying leg kicks, roundhouse kicks and other martial arts moves that have specific game mechanics attached to them. However, no one ever gets everything they want but i think there is enough here that provide good improvement for the monk.
I have to say this is an improvement over UA6 (low bar). Lets look through all the issues 5E Monk had for comparison.
Monk is still MAD using DEX to hit and WIS for DC. But because survivability (Disengage, Deflect Attack, Dodge+FOB) is greatly improved there is less need to have perfect AC from each ASI. This makes feats more plausible.
Melee Survivability is astounding. At level 1, a Monk can Dodge + BA attack. At level 2, a skirmisher can disengage. At level 3, Deflect Attack reduces damage by ~8 for each Reaction. At Level 10 Dodge + FoB is still respectable damage. I would not be surprised if the numbers for Deflect Attack get reduced from 1d10+DEX+Monk Levels down to Martial Arts Dice + Monk Level.
The Bonus Action is still clogged. As has been noted, the optimum strategy is still FoB, with niche uses of everything else. I doubt WoTC will risk development time on changing the Bonus Action features. But I still hope Patient Defense gets modified to work with Deflect Attack.
Ki Points have been bandaged. SoTW and PD provide options when out of Points. Uncanny Metabolism provides a backup for 1 encounter per day. The Monk is still a Short Rest class while most classes are Long Rest based.
Monk damage in Tier 3 + 4 appears to be fixed by Magic Items (announced but unseen) and FoB adding a 3rd attack.
Self Restoration (aka Stillness of Mind) and Disciplined Survivor (aka Diamond Soul) overlap as protection from status. I'd much rather trade Self Restoration for 1 or 2 Saving Throw proficiencies.
Stunning Strike seems balanced as 1/turn Stun or damage. But it still seems monotonous compared to Rogue's Cunning Strikes. I'd like the option to impose other conditions (Dazed) at a different cost.
Monks still do not offer much outside of combat. Even Barbarian and Fighter got features to work out of combat. Monk's most unique out of combat feature, Acrobatic Movement, appears so late to be negligible. I really wish Acrobatic Movement appeared at an earlier level.
Overall I am thankful for the UA8. There is still room for improvement.
The latest version of Open Hand still seems underwhelming. Each feature seems disjointed.
The level 3 feature is tied to FoB, so if you are out of Points or use PD/SoTW, you effectively have no subclass. Picking up a single Weapon Mastery through a Feat or multiclass does the job debatably as well. At least Addle no longer requires a save.
Wholeness of Body is a Bonus Action heal, which means in combat it would take the place of FoB. Healing is better outside of combat. At level 6 it appears to be ~34 HP. That is comparable to Lay on Hands. Not too bad, but not unique.
Fleet Step is interesting in that it is a free Dash every turn. Reliable Double Speed. There are some interesting Grapples that could be done (Spike Growth).
Quivering Palm is less clunky, but just boring damage.
In less than an hour, I haphazardly threw together an alternative Open Hand subclass that is simpler, more cohesive, and effective.
At Level 3 you gain a single Weapon Mastery (Sap, Slow, Topple, or Push) that can only be applied to your Unarmed Strikes. The Weapon Mastery can be applied when a creature fails a saving throw against Grapple or Shove.
At Level 6 you gain a second Weapon Mastery without restrictions that can only be applied to your Unarmed Strikes. You may only use one Weapon Mastery per attack. When you successfully Grapple or Shove, you may deal a Martial Arts dice of damage to the target.
Fleet Step is unchanged.
Quivering Palm You gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. Once per turn when you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can force the target to make a CON save or gain a level of Exhaustion.
With the open hand/warrior of the hand remember that the new flurry of blows does not require an attack action.
This means you can start with the flurry causing the open palm effects and then attack. In base PH most of your attacks were done by the time you knocked them prone etc. Now you can knock them prone on the first attack. With quivering palm you can now deliver its damage in a single round, you will be burning through discipline points fast but the damage out put will be high.(though its level 17 for that part).
I am not sure it is as good as shadow for example but its better than it looks I think. I'll have to play with it to see how it pans out.
its ok, its more that this is kinda baseline functionality now. any demi martial, other than rogue (even war clerics and warlocks) can just pull out a topple weapon and topple, or use a push weapon with no save.
so the open hand monk, for its main feature, unlocks a worse version of mastery. If you sub fighter 1 level you can literally whip out a maul, spend two attacks trying to topple it, stow it, and flurry of blows. with a 2d6, at level 5.
and not just fighter, barbarian, Ranger, warlock, paladin, can all do this out the box. Sooo feels a bit weird to be the defining feature of open hand.
“Monk Weapons are Simple Melee Weapons and Martial Weapons that have the Light Property.”
The hand crossbow is now a Monk Weapon.
This monk actually looks pretty good, I am happy with most of the improvements. Hoping it stays mostly like this for phb
I think the cap stone is good enough you wouldn’t want to multi class if you’re going monk all the way
Is this monk too strong? It is tough as nails, but it loses Opportunity attacks if it uses deflect attack so that seems a fair trade off. The level 10 upgrade does feel like it comes online a little too early. Mobility is definitely improved, but you still lose out on damage by a lot at level 10+ if you try to utilize it, the ki trade off feels way better though 3 attacks vs dodge, disengage and 2x MA die Temp HP seems like it may be worth it.
I am torn between, is this too strong or just good choices are good and we want things to be an actual choice.
Not if you're Open Hand - at 11 they can attack+flurry+dash all they want. Or, if you're willing to spend a bit more DP, they can attack+flurry+dash+disengage.
The others aren't quite as mobile, but they may not need to be. For Mercy, if the target isn't immune to being poisoned they can just hang out in melee, the disadvantage it grants is equivalent to free dodge. Shadow is the same with their magical darkness, except they also get advantage thanks to being able to see through it. And 4E won't need to disengage at all, nor run as far, because they'll have push and reach.
So after Mulling over it for a while their are things I would still like changed.
Definitely true at 11 for Open hand, and the others is true as well at 11, and I did say 10+ not just 10. It is just all around interesting situation I think.
Deflect all attacks at 3rd lvl seems a bit OP.
As a rogue, I will sneak attack with a whip. Melee attack from 10ft away. Ha! You can reduce the damage but not slap it back in my face!
If the game was geared for PvP it would be OP. But honestly against most creatures the monk is better saving it’s DP for FoB.
I think the value is less in the redirect and more in the damage prevention which doesn't cost a DP just the reaction, but it does lose out on AoO to do so.