I'd be okay if, instead of just a damaging zone, these created an actual swarm with a statblock (included in the spell.) That would still get you a mob of squirrels or mephits or wolves or pixies or whatever, but do so in a way that is much more manageable at the table.
The only way anyone is going to tolerate the 2014-style spells is if you give them a one-minute cast time, minimum. I'd honestly prefer ten. Do a "Call to Nature" style spell that summons beasts from the area over the course of ten to sixty minutes, spell dependent, to aid the druid. The beasts flee if initiative is rolled. You do something like that, create a "Conjure" spell that fundamentally cannot be used in or for combat? Then sure. We'll see. But the instant-cast versions with the pixies and the raptors and all the rest of that memish nonsense need to go.
I'd actually be down for this. I feel like DnD could use more long wind-up preparation-style spells that have big, flashy effects that aren't able to be used at a moment's notice. Let the party martials draw up some battle plans and go over city defenses while the casters spend all day conjuring up their best powers to reinforce the walls or set up magical traps.
Let the druid spend their prep time negotiating with fey spirits and calling on the local beast population to create spider-web nets and have an army of dire badgers dig trenches. Or summon a legion of squirrels to act as scouts. Or conjure a herd of cows to pull a sunken wagon out of the muck. Or conjure some horses to wait at a specific location so the party has an escape plan.
It just all requires time to sit down and focus, or it requires forethought and careful planning.
I'd be okay if, instead of just a damaging zone, these created an actual swarm with a statblock (included in the spell.) That would still get you a mob of squirrels or mephits or wolves or pixies or whatever, but do so in a way that is much more manageable at the table.
I like the idea. I’m not familiar enough with how swarms work but how would it be different than a player taking Tasha’s Summon Beast and flavoring it as a “mob of squirrels”? Other than a different stat block?
...I feel like DnD could use more long wind-up preparation-style spells that have big, flashy effects that aren't able to be used at a moment's notice...
not that this is what you meant, but i sometimes dream of homebrewing a casting time delay in combat. in 2e there was something like an optional rule to modify a mage's initiative roll by an amount for certain spells so that the spell went off further in the round. like a delayed action but on a timer. it's the proverbial (and very generous) "you see the dragon take a deep breath, a malicious curl to its lips" that players can make use of or not. except, this would be open to benefit by enemies too. sounds more challenging, but also sounds a little like a recipe for hours of focus fire on the spellcasters. not to mention more accidentally fireballing your friends.
not really compatible with 5e but, sigh, i can dream...
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in 2e there was something like an optional rule to modify a mage's initiative roll by an amount for certain spells so that the spell went off further in the round.
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I'd be okay if, instead of just a damaging zone, these created an actual swarm with a statblock (included in the spell.) That would still get you a mob of squirrels or mephits or wolves or pixies or whatever, but do so in a way that is much more manageable at the table.
I like the idea. I’m not familiar enough with how swarms work but how would it be different than a player taking Tasha’s Summon Beast and flavoring it as a “mob of squirrels”? Other than a different stat block?
The three primary differences are that swarms can occupy the same space as another creature, cannot be healed, and can fit through spaces that the individual mob in the swarm could even if the swarm as a whole is larger.
in 2e there was something like an optional rule to modify a mage's initiative roll by an amount for certain spells so that the spell went off further in the round.
i often overlook Speed Factor just for the complication of making everything work, especially the stuff that makes someone faster rather than slower. but ignoring everything else and just fiddling with spells each round might work. good call! (assuming you didn't actually mean that 'side initiative' poison. eew!)
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I like the idea. I’m not familiar enough with how swarms work but how would it be different than a player taking Tasha’s Summon Beast and flavoring it as a “mob of squirrels”? Other than a different stat block?
Using a different stat block is different. In general a swarm has:
Resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing.
Immunity to charmed, frightened, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, prone, restrained, stunned.
The swarm trait (The swarm can occupy another creature’s space and vice versa, and the swarm can move through any opening large enough for a an element of the swarm. The swarm can’t regain hit points or gain temporary hit points)
Reach is typically 0.
Damage is halved when the swarm drops to half hit points.
The only flaw I see with making them just swarm variant spells is that a swarm of horses don’t help a party the same way having 4 warhorses does. If the choice was between swarm spells and what we got in the UA I would vote for swarm spells, but I believe there is a way to have unique spell that holds some of what these spells currently are capable of while making them less disruptive.
The only flaw I see with making them just swarm variant spells is that a swarm of horses don’t help a party the same way having 4 warhorses does.
Add Phantom Steed or some such. Or a 'summon riding beast' type spell. Though bear in mind that giving the entire party flight via summoning flying mounts is too powerful for a level 3 spell.
The only flaw I see with making them just swarm variant spells is that a swarm of horses don’t help a party the same way having 4 warhorses does. If the choice was between swarm spells and what we got in the UA I would vote for swarm spells, but I believe there is a way to have unique spell that holds some of what these spells currently are capable of while making them less disruptive.
That depends how you define the swarm; if they have a rule specifically stating that the swarm consists of X riding horses or whatever, then the DM can still run them that way some of the time. The point really is that for the purposes of combat they should be grouped back up to fight.
Mounts could also have the option of just being treated as "speed boosts", i.e- the mount's speed becomes the player's speed and the mount is otherwise ignored to keep things simple, or only considered if it's targeted directly or whatever.
There are absolutely ways to keep it simple, and really for these spells you only usually need the creatures separate for out of combat stuff where that's less of a problem anyway. The goal is only to simplify the combat side of the equation since it's where the game can already get bogged down (combat in D&D can be really slow even without any summons etc.).
i often overlook Speed Factor just for the complication of making everything work, especially the stuff that makes someone faster rather than slower. but ignoring everything else and just fiddling with spells each round might work. good call! (assuming you didn't actually mean that 'side initiative' poison. eew!)
Whoops, yeah sorry Speed Factor is what I meant, I'll correct my post! I do quite like the idea of using the full table under Speed Factor, as it does reward the use of lighter weapons, distinguishes slower ranged weapons more and makes equipment a bit more interesting, but unless you can get players to do some of the work for you it's not a great one to use. But yeah, just bumping players down in a round because they cast a spell could be an interesting one, and maybe another flat penalty for anything else you'd rule as "slow'.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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The only flaw I see with making them just swarm variant spells is that a swarm of horses don’t help a party the same way having 4 warhorses does.
Add Phantom Steed or some such. Or a 'summon riding beast' type spell. Though bear in mind that giving the entire party flight via summoning flying mounts is too powerful for a level 3 spell.
Genie Warlocks get non-spell flight at level 6 Twilight Clerics get non-spell flight at level 6 Every Arcane Caster can pick up the Fly spell at level 5 The latest UA Dragonborn gets non-spell flight at level 5 Aasimar, Aarakocra, Owlin, and Fairies get non-spell flight at level 1 Tasha's Summon Beast has a flying option that could carry a party member (castable at level 3) Several Uncommon magic items give flight and are commonly given out around level 5
i often overlook Speed Factor just for the complication of making everything work, especially the stuff that makes someone faster rather than slower. but ignoring everything else and just fiddling with spells each round might work. good call! ...
... I do quite like the idea of using the full table under Speed Factor, as it does reward the use of lighter weapons, distinguishes slower ranged weapons more and makes equipment a bit more interesting, but unless you can get players to do some of the work for you it's not a great one to use. But yeah, just bumping players down in a round because they cast a spell could be an interesting one, and maybe another flat penalty for anything else you'd rule as "slow'.
what i find interesting is the additional rigamarole that the narrative is forced by this optional rule to accommodate with regard to spells specifically. it's just a minor touch adding weight to the world for a spell to begin, grow, and land. to me it's not as interesting that someone can fly as it is that they can call up magical forces which waft the wings on their boots and lift them steadily from the ground. yeah, more words better. but anyone can narrate their little minor miracle, one of a hundred this session. somehow it's just the right cinematic touch (to me) when a spell is accompanied by a time (or space) component somewhere longer than 'instant.'
and i think that's kinda why i have an initial favorable impression to these UA conjure spells: they're spell effects with a little heft, with a spacial component. sure, the 2014 version summoned were VERY spacial components. ha ha. okay, but i'm meaning that i enjoy that the UA conjure spells aren't just different colors of fireball. spirits linger and in many cases move. it's also what i liked about the spells these are modeled after... spiritual weapon, spirit guardians, etc. i'm not put off by the similarities because i want more spells like these. ...and now if they could just make them cost two actions to cast or something, then i might really feel it. not holding my breath, though.
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Ritual Casting as of now is more so you don't spend a spell slot on an out-of-combat utility spell so that players will be more incentivized to use them.
This is quite different from locking particularly big, campaign-impacting spells behind a ritual so that a caster can't just drop their biggest and best spells in the same 6 second time frame it takes a martial to swing their sword. I'd definitely still require big spells like Conjure Animal to cost a spell slot even if the cast time is too long to be used in combat.
The only flaw I see with making them just swarm variant spells is that a swarm of horses don’t help a party the same way having 4 warhorses does. If the choice was between swarm spells and what we got in the UA I would vote for swarm spells, but I believe there is a way to have unique spell that holds some of what these spells currently are capable of while making them less disruptive.
I'd rather have a separate spell for the whole horse trader thing. One that can't be used in combat at all.
The only flaw I see with making them just swarm variant spells is that a swarm of horses don’t help a party the same way having 4 warhorses does. If the choice was between swarm spells and what we got in the UA I would vote for swarm spells, but I believe there is a way to have unique spell that holds some of what these spells currently are capable of while making them less disruptive.
I don't get why people even think that it's perfectly fine that Conjure Animals, a 3rd level spell that is one of the best damage spells at this level, can also conjure a bunch of flying scouts, and can also solve various other non-combat problems e.g., summoning 4 horses for an hour while Phantom Steed, another 3rd level spell only conjures one horse for an hour (yeah I know PS doesn't require concentration). I mean a single spell just shouldn't be at the same time more versatile than most other spells and outperform niche spells at their own game - be it damage or conjuring horses.
So imo, Conjure * should either be a versatile non-combat spell OR a combat only spell. But not great at both.
The only flaw I see with making them just swarm variant spells is that a swarm of horses don’t help a party the same way having 4 warhorses does. If the choice was between swarm spells and what we got in the UA I would vote for swarm spells, but I believe there is a way to have unique spell that holds some of what these spells currently are capable of while making them less disruptive.
I don't get why people even think that it's perfectly fine that Conjure Animals, a 3rd level spell that is one of the best damage spells at this level, can also conjure a bunch of flying scouts, and can also solve various other non-combat problems e.g., summoning 4 horses for an hour while Phantom Steed, another 3rd level spell only conjures one horse for an hour (yeah I know PS doesn't require concentration). I mean a single spell just shouldn't be at the same time more versatile than most other spells and outperform niche spells at their own game - be it damage or conjuring horses.
So imo, Conjure * should either be a versatile non-combat spell OR a combat only spell. But not great at both.
the way its use is being described, it seems some people consider conjure animals to be an essential class feature. it would be my preference to provide a subclass that burned wildshape charges to accomplish similar spell effects.
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I'd be okay if, instead of just a damaging zone, these created an actual swarm with a statblock (included in the spell.) That would still get you a mob of squirrels or mephits or wolves or pixies or whatever, but do so in a way that is much more manageable at the table.
I'd actually be down for this. I feel like DnD could use more long wind-up preparation-style spells that have big, flashy effects that aren't able to be used at a moment's notice. Let the party martials draw up some battle plans and go over city defenses while the casters spend all day conjuring up their best powers to reinforce the walls or set up magical traps.
Let the druid spend their prep time negotiating with fey spirits and calling on the local beast population to create spider-web nets and have an army of dire badgers dig trenches. Or summon a legion of squirrels to act as scouts. Or conjure a herd of cows to pull a sunken wagon out of the muck. Or conjure some horses to wait at a specific location so the party has an escape plan.
It just all requires time to sit down and focus, or it requires forethought and careful planning.
But that should be cover by ritual spell
I like the idea. I’m not familiar enough with how swarms work but how would it be different than a player taking Tasha’s Summon Beast and flavoring it as a “mob of squirrels”? Other than a different stat block?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
not that this is what you meant, but i sometimes dream of homebrewing a casting time delay in combat. in 2e there was something like an optional rule to modify a mage's initiative roll by an amount for certain spells so that the spell went off further in the round. like a delayed action but on a timer. it's the proverbial (and very generous) "you see the dragon take a deep breath, a malicious curl to its lips" that players can make use of or not. except, this would be open to benefit by enemies too. sounds more challenging, but also sounds a little like a recipe for hours of focus fire on the spellcasters. not to mention more accidentally fireballing your friends.
not really compatible with 5e but, sigh, i can dream...
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There's actually an Initiative variant in the Dungeon Master's Guide called
"Side Initiative""Speed Factor" that might be what you're looking for?Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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The three primary differences are that swarms can occupy the same space as another creature, cannot be healed, and can fit through spaces that the individual mob in the swarm could even if the swarm as a whole is larger.
i often overlook Speed Factor just for the complication of making everything work, especially the stuff that makes someone faster rather than slower. but ignoring everything else and just fiddling with spells each round might work. good call! (assuming you didn't actually mean that 'side initiative' poison. eew!)
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
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Using a different stat block is different. In general a swarm has:
The only flaw I see with making them just swarm variant spells is that a swarm of horses don’t help a party the same way having 4 warhorses does. If the choice was between swarm spells and what we got in the UA I would vote for swarm spells, but I believe there is a way to have unique spell that holds some of what these spells currently are capable of while making them less disruptive.
Add Phantom Steed or some such. Or a 'summon riding beast' type spell. Though bear in mind that giving the entire party flight via summoning flying mounts is too powerful for a level 3 spell.
Or just...have the party purchase mounts to ride places on. They're not that expensive. Not every needs requires a spell that can fulfill that need.
That depends how you define the swarm; if they have a rule specifically stating that the swarm consists of X riding horses or whatever, then the DM can still run them that way some of the time. The point really is that for the purposes of combat they should be grouped back up to fight.
Mounts could also have the option of just being treated as "speed boosts", i.e- the mount's speed becomes the player's speed and the mount is otherwise ignored to keep things simple, or only considered if it's targeted directly or whatever.
There are absolutely ways to keep it simple, and really for these spells you only usually need the creatures separate for out of combat stuff where that's less of a problem anyway. The goal is only to simplify the combat side of the equation since it's where the game can already get bogged down (combat in D&D can be really slow even without any summons etc.).
Whoops, yeah sorry Speed Factor is what I meant, I'll correct my post! I do quite like the idea of using the full table under Speed Factor, as it does reward the use of lighter weapons, distinguishes slower ranged weapons more and makes equipment a bit more interesting, but unless you can get players to do some of the work for you it's not a great one to use. But yeah, just bumping players down in a round because they cast a spell could be an interesting one, and maybe another flat penalty for anything else you'd rule as "slow'.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Genie Warlocks get non-spell flight at level 6
Twilight Clerics get non-spell flight at level 6
Every Arcane Caster can pick up the Fly spell at level 5
The latest UA Dragonborn gets non-spell flight at level 5
Aasimar, Aarakocra, Owlin, and Fairies get non-spell flight at level 1
Tasha's Summon Beast has a flying option that could carry a party member (castable at level 3)
Several Uncommon magic items give flight and are commonly given out around level 5
Why is Conjure Animals granting flight a problem?
Because of the entire party part. Giving it to one character would not be a problem.
what i find interesting is the additional rigamarole that the narrative is forced by this optional rule to accommodate with regard to spells specifically. it's just a minor touch adding weight to the world for a spell to begin, grow, and land. to me it's not as interesting that someone can fly as it is that they can call up magical forces which waft the wings on their boots and lift them steadily from the ground. yeah, more words better. but anyone can narrate their little minor miracle, one of a hundred this session. somehow it's just the right cinematic touch (to me) when a spell is accompanied by a time (or space) component somewhere longer than 'instant.'
and i think that's kinda why i have an initial favorable impression to these UA conjure spells: they're spell effects with a little heft, with a spacial component. sure, the 2014 version summoned were VERY spacial components. ha ha. okay, but i'm meaning that i enjoy that the UA conjure spells aren't just different colors of fireball. spirits linger and in many cases move. it's also what i liked about the spells these are modeled after... spiritual weapon, spirit guardians, etc. i'm not put off by the similarities because i want more spells like these. ...and now if they could just make them cost two actions to cast or something, then i might really feel it. not holding my breath, though.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
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Ritual Casting as of now is more so you don't spend a spell slot on an out-of-combat utility spell so that players will be more incentivized to use them.
This is quite different from locking particularly big, campaign-impacting spells behind a ritual so that a caster can't just drop their biggest and best spells in the same 6 second time frame it takes a martial to swing their sword. I'd definitely still require big spells like Conjure Animal to cost a spell slot even if the cast time is too long to be used in combat.
I'd rather have a separate spell for the whole horse trader thing. One that can't be used in combat at all.
I don't get why people even think that it's perfectly fine that Conjure Animals, a 3rd level spell that is one of the best damage spells at this level, can also conjure a bunch of flying scouts, and can also solve various other non-combat problems e.g., summoning 4 horses for an hour while Phantom Steed, another 3rd level spell only conjures one horse for an hour (yeah I know PS doesn't require concentration). I mean a single spell just shouldn't be at the same time more versatile than most other spells and outperform niche spells at their own game - be it damage or conjuring horses.
So imo, Conjure * should either be a versatile non-combat spell OR a combat only spell. But not great at both.
the way its use is being described, it seems some people consider conjure animals to be an essential class feature. it would be my preference to provide a subclass that burned wildshape charges to accomplish similar spell effects.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
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