I wonder if part of the change is to get rid of shenanigans like summoning a small army of pixies with polymorph. Or the occasional stack of elephants over an enemy’s head, or a blue whale or what have you. And they are trying to at least minimize forcing players to flip through monster books. And it’s always been a little confusing about if the player or DM gets to pick what is summoned (just judging by the number of threads on the topic). So, I guess, an amorphous blob of damage fixes most of those problems.
That was the fun of it, though. At least in part. Being able to improvise shenanigans that occasionally work worders is part of the joy of tabletop RP that you cannot get with a VTT or a compu/videogame. WotC's attempt to streamline (i.e. reduce choices) for player agency by completely gutting the most of the Conjure X spells really damages players' ability to do just that.
The game devs wanted (or just as likely were ordered) to create "amorphous blob" to replace the old mechanic when they could just as easiliy have limited the raw # of summons and implemented a default rule saying that summons must be from book Z and provided a few tables. Instead they went the totally opposite thematic and mechancial direction and just nerfed most Conjure X spells into the ground.
It may have been fun occasionally but I think it became the typical tactic. Each combat was the same thing. If pixies were banned, 8 velociraptors were just as bad. Or more upcast.
If they would have drastically limited the number then it would have been better but then not much different than the Tasha’s summon spells. And it gets away from players needing the MM. or they limit it to PHB beasts.
It may have been fun occasionally but I think it became the typical tactic. Each combat was the same thing. If pixies were banned, 8 velociraptors were just as bad. Or more upcast.
If they would have drastically limited the number then it would have been better but then not much different than the Tasha’s summon spells. And it gets away from players needing the MM. or they limit it to PHB beasts.
That's no different from any other spellcaster though. Every combat the cleric casts Spirit Guardians, the Bard casts Hypnotic Pattern, the Sorcerer casts Fireball, the Warlock casts Hunger of Hadar etc....
Players still need the MM because of Polymorph which is available to far more casters and is far more popular than Conjure spells (plus Find Familiar and Wildshape).
People don't/didn't like the Conjure spells because they are annoying for DMs because players would want you to have a bunch of different tokens at the ready all the time, and because the 8x CR 1/4 options clogged up combat. If as a DM you limit those spells to the CR 1 or CR 2 options while in combat they work just fine and can be very fun, and are much more interesting than the new conjure spells.
It may have been fun occasionally but I think it became the typical tactic. Each combat was the same thing. If pixies were banned, 8 velociraptors were just as bad. Or more upcast.
If they would have drastically limited the number then it would have been better but then not much different than the Tasha’s summon spells. And it gets away from players needing the MM. or they limit it to PHB beasts.
That's no different from any other spellcaster though. Every combat the cleric casts Spirit Guardians, the Bard casts Hypnotic Pattern, the Sorcerer casts Fireball, the Warlock casts Hunger of Hadar etc....
Players still need the MM because of Polymorph which is available to far more casters and is far more popular than Conjure spells (plus Find Familiar and Wildshape).
People don't/didn't like the Conjure spells because they are annoying for DMs because players would want you to have a bunch of different tokens at the ready all the time, and because the 8x CR 1/4 options clogged up combat. If as a DM you limit those spells to the CR 1 or CR 2 options while in combat they work just fine and can be very fun, and are much more interesting than the new conjure spells.
I would always say they should have created a curated list. When its just CR there will always be things that distort the value of the spell, if not at launch in some later supplement. With animals its less of an issue as they are always mundane in their abilities, but with say fiends or fey a low CR creature frequently will have access to spells and abilities not available at those spell levels. And on top of that when they keep it in mind it hampers monster design as they keep that in mind. they clearly forget sometimes, but it reduces the rang of low Cr monsters.
I -really- hate the word "utility." In RPGs, it means everything that isn't directly dealing damage or directly granting HP or THP. Granting advantages or bonuses so someone else deals better damage? Utility. Carrying luggage? Utility. Distraction with shiny lights? Utility. Buffs and debuffs so you do more damage or need to heal less? Utility. Battlefield control is considered to be utility by many.
Its such a broad word that encompasses so, so much that its functionally useless as a term. It can be in combat, out of combat exploration, social, crafting, etc. Anything and everything as long as it doesn't touch hit points directly.
I have always interpreted it to mean anything used outside of combat. (that isn't used for combat [eg: not prayer of healing])
And on top of that when they keep it in mind it hampers monster design as they keep that in mind. they clearly forget sometimes, but it reduces the rang of low Cr monsters.
That is a silly argument. If they are low CR creatures they shouldn't have any game breaking ability when used as a group against level 5 PCs or similarly levelled monsters. The "problematic" creatures were/are so because their CR was way too low for their actual abilities and if those monsters were used against PCs as designed would easily TPK the party. The entire "wha it limits monster design" is actually a good thing because it forces the designers to actually make low level monster appropriate for low level PCs.
E.g. for the 2024 books, 6 Pixies or 6 Shadows or 6 Velociraptors or 6 Wolves is considered a "Medium" encounter for a group of 4x level 1 PCs.
6x 2024 Wolves is 66 total hit points, that deal on average 30 DPR, a group of 4 PCs has on average ~40 total hit points and deals ~20 DPR. For Velociraptors they are 60 HP total and 54 DPR.
I wonder if part of the change is to get rid of shenanigans like summoning a small army of pixies with polymorph. Or the occasional stack of elephants over an enemy’s head, or a blue whale or what have you. And they are trying to at least minimize forcing players to flip through monster books. And it’s always been a little confusing about if the player or DM gets to pick what is summoned (just judging by the number of threads on the topic). So, I guess, an amorphous blob of damage fixes most of those problems.
That was the fun of it, though. At least in part. Being able to improvise shenanigans that occasionally work worders is part of the joy of tabletop RP that you cannot get with a VTT or a compu/videogame. WotC's attempt to streamline (i.e. reduce choices) for player agency by completely gutting the most of the Conjure X spells really damages players' ability to do just that.
The game devs wanted (or just as likely were ordered) to create "amorphous blob" to replace the old mechanic when they could just as easiliy have limited the raw # of summons and implemented a default rule saying that summons must be from book Z and provided a few tables. Instead they went the totally opposite thematic and mechancial direction and just nerfed most Conjure X spells into the ground
i wonder why people randomly think that vtts cant do things you can do with paper? Its just as easy, if ni easier to run multiple monsters with vtts. unless the vtt isnt very good at its job. And Vtts dont eliminate imagination or improvisation, just like in irl ttrps things that arent easily represented ar imagined, the same is true with vtts.
the issues of certain summon spells was a problem for running things by paper, for quite some time. Many people banned, or modified such spells so it didnt derail other aspects of the game. They altered this from the baseline experience because it wasnt creating great gameplay more often than not
And on top of that when they keep it in mind it hampers monster design as they keep that in mind. they clearly forget sometimes, but it reduces the rang of low Cr monsters.
That is a silly argument. If they are low CR creatures they shouldn't have any game breaking ability when used as a group against level 5 PCs or similarly levelled monsters. The "problematic" creatures were/are so because their CR was way too low for their actual abilities and if those monsters were used against PCs as designed would easily TPK the party. The entire "wha it limits monster design" is actually a good thing because it forces the designers to actually make low level monster appropriate for low level PCs.
E.g. for the 2024 books, 6 Pixies or 6 Shadows or 6 Velociraptors or 6 Wolves is considered a "Medium" encounter for a group of 4x level 1 PCs.
6x 2024 Wolves is 66 total hit points, that deal on average 30 DPR, a group of 4 PCs has on average ~40 total hit points and deals ~20 DPR. For Velociraptors they are 60 HP total and 54 DPR.
It is not a silly argument. A CR is a combat concept, all of a creatures abilities aren't. there can be low Cr creatures with healing, transportation, utility spells baked in which would mean one spell gives access to a wide range of spells some of which could be of a higher level than the spell itself. That does not make it a high Cr monster, it may be incredibly weak in combat individually or in a group. But it will give outsized benefits for the spell. It wont force the designers to make weaker monsters, it forces designers to not give low CR creatures interesting abilities that don't really effect the CR but when handed out to a PC for a low level spell may make the spell far too effective.
And on top of that when they keep it in mind it hampers monster design as they keep that in mind. they clearly forget sometimes, but it reduces the rang of low Cr monsters.
That is a silly argument. If they are low CR creatures they shouldn't have any game breaking ability when used as a group against level 5 PCs or similarly levelled monsters. The "problematic" creatures were/are so because their CR was way too low for their actual abilities and if those monsters were used against PCs as designed would easily TPK the party. The entire "wha it limits monster design" is actually a good thing because it forces the designers to actually make low level monster appropriate for low level PCs.
E.g. for the 2024 books, 6 Pixies or 6 Shadows or 6 Velociraptors or 6 Wolves is considered a "Medium" encounter for a group of 4x level 1 PCs.
6x 2024 Wolves is 66 total hit points, that deal on average 30 DPR, a group of 4 PCs has on average ~40 total hit points and deals ~20 DPR. For Velociraptors they are 60 HP total and 54 DPR.
It is not a silly argument. A CR is a combat concept, all of a creatures abilities aren't. there can be low Cr creatures with healing, transportation, utility spells baked in which would mean one spell gives access to a wide range of spells some of which could be of a higher level than the spell itself. That does not make it a high Cr monster, it may be incredibly weak in combat individually or in a group. But it will give outsized benefits for the spell. It wont force the designers to make weaker monsters, it forces designers to not give low CR creatures interesting abilities that don't really effect the CR but when handed out to a PC for a low level spell may make the spell far too effective.
Do you have some examples of this from the prior versions you could list?
And on top of that when they keep it in mind it hampers monster design as they keep that in mind. they clearly forget sometimes, but it reduces the rang of low Cr monsters.
That is a silly argument. If they are low CR creatures they shouldn't have any game breaking ability when used as a group against level 5 PCs or similarly levelled monsters. The "problematic" creatures were/are so because their CR was way too low for their actual abilities and if those monsters were used against PCs as designed would easily TPK the party. The entire "wha it limits monster design" is actually a good thing because it forces the designers to actually make low level monster appropriate for low level PCs.
E.g. for the 2024 books, 6 Pixies or 6 Shadows or 6 Velociraptors or 6 Wolves is considered a "Medium" encounter for a group of 4x level 1 PCs.
6x 2024 Wolves is 66 total hit points, that deal on average 30 DPR, a group of 4 PCs has on average ~40 total hit points and deals ~20 DPR. For Velociraptors they are 60 HP total and 54 DPR.
It is not a silly argument. A CR is a combat concept, all of a creatures abilities aren't. there can be low Cr creatures with healing, transportation, utility spells baked in which would mean one spell gives access to a wide range of spells some of which could be of a higher level than the spell itself. That does not make it a high Cr monster, it may be incredibly weak in combat individually or in a group. But it will give outsized benefits for the spell. It wont force the designers to make weaker monsters, it forces designers to not give low CR creatures interesting abilities that don't really effect the CR but when handed out to a PC for a low level spell may make the spell far too effective.
Do you have some examples of this from the prior versions you could list?
From pervious editions and the monster summoning spells sure. This edition not as much as honestly I don't find many creatures at all in 5e 2024 to have that many interesting abilities. I think their focus was more ease of running than interesting things to fit into your world. In 2014 a lot of the just spellcaster style creatures gave outsized benefits for their CR. And I have seen comments from designers themselves saying these spells impacted their design. So obviously there wont be many examples as they take that into account and designed things not to impact in that way.
Couple quick examples from what we have or recent non "legacy" creatures the sage though for example, one spell gives you access to tongues, sending, see invisibly, locate object etc and 4 of them since the 4th level spell can summon 4 CR 1/2 creatures. It would be a higher level conjure spell but a unicorn for example now comes with word of recall. i think they knew celestials had more abilities like this so conjure celestial from 2014 hit lower CR creatures than Conjure fey and scaled worse. But a unicorn with word of recall a 6th level spell is CR5. And conjure fey a 6th level spell gave access to Cr 6 creatures so if a celestial CR 5 could why not a fey in your design. Succubus/cambion and being able to get off a 8th level version of dominate person. Ghosts with possession, wraith with the ability to create 7 specters. And I'm sure there is some outsized damage exploit people can figure out with 8 low level spell effects from Y creature.
These are all things they have to take into account when creating a new creature if it can be summoned. And when enough creatures have enough abilities the spell starts looking more like a limited wish effect as you in effect have access to any spell or ability that is of X level or lower. Will you one monster manual in, no. But 4 monster books in yeah it can happen.
Succubus/cambion and being able to get off a 8th level version of dominate person. Ghosts with possession, wraith with the ability to create 7 specters.
None of those can be conjured as allies. They are also all > CR 2 so even if they were Fey/Beasts you couldn't conjure one until a level where you could reproduce that effect with a different spell.
Word of Recall requires the spell be primed by an initial casting, meaning it’s entirely within the DMs purview to say the creature doesn’t come pre-loaded, and even if the unicorn has two casts of it you’re still limited to someplace within an hour of the encounter you use it in, assuming you don’t lose concentration first.
For Wraiths, the applicable spell is still in the game, which highlights why the Conjure change looks arbitrary.
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It may have been fun occasionally but I think it became the typical tactic. Each combat was the same thing. If pixies were banned, 8 velociraptors were just as bad. Or more upcast.
If they would have drastically limited the number then it would have been better but then not much different than the Tasha’s summon spells. And it gets away from players needing the MM. or they limit it to PHB beasts.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
That's no different from any other spellcaster though. Every combat the cleric casts Spirit Guardians, the Bard casts Hypnotic Pattern, the Sorcerer casts Fireball, the Warlock casts Hunger of Hadar etc....
Players still need the MM because of Polymorph which is available to far more casters and is far more popular than Conjure spells (plus Find Familiar and Wildshape).
People don't/didn't like the Conjure spells because they are annoying for DMs because players would want you to have a bunch of different tokens at the ready all the time, and because the 8x CR 1/4 options clogged up combat. If as a DM you limit those spells to the CR 1 or CR 2 options while in combat they work just fine and can be very fun, and are much more interesting than the new conjure spells.
I would always say they should have created a curated list. When its just CR there will always be things that distort the value of the spell, if not at launch in some later supplement. With animals its less of an issue as they are always mundane in their abilities, but with say fiends or fey a low CR creature frequently will have access to spells and abilities not available at those spell levels. And on top of that when they keep it in mind it hampers monster design as they keep that in mind. they clearly forget sometimes, but it reduces the rang of low Cr monsters.
I have always interpreted it to mean anything used outside of combat. (that isn't used for combat [eg: not prayer of healing])
That is a silly argument. If they are low CR creatures they shouldn't have any game breaking ability when used as a group against level 5 PCs or similarly levelled monsters. The "problematic" creatures were/are so because their CR was way too low for their actual abilities and if those monsters were used against PCs as designed would easily TPK the party. The entire "wha it limits monster design" is actually a good thing because it forces the designers to actually make low level monster appropriate for low level PCs.
E.g. for the 2024 books, 6 Pixies or 6 Shadows or 6 Velociraptors or 6 Wolves is considered a "Medium" encounter for a group of 4x level 1 PCs.
6x 2024 Wolves is 66 total hit points, that deal on average 30 DPR, a group of 4 PCs has on average ~40 total hit points and deals ~20 DPR. For Velociraptors they are 60 HP total and 54 DPR.
i wonder why people randomly think that vtts cant do things you can do with paper? Its just as easy, if ni easier to run multiple monsters with vtts. unless the vtt isnt very good at its job. And Vtts dont eliminate imagination or improvisation, just like in irl ttrps things that arent easily represented ar imagined, the same is true with vtts.
the issues of certain summon spells was a problem for running things by paper, for quite some time. Many people banned, or modified such spells so it didnt derail other aspects of the game. They altered this from the baseline experience because it wasnt creating great gameplay more often than not
It is not a silly argument. A CR is a combat concept, all of a creatures abilities aren't. there can be low Cr creatures with healing, transportation, utility spells baked in which would mean one spell gives access to a wide range of spells some of which could be of a higher level than the spell itself. That does not make it a high Cr monster, it may be incredibly weak in combat individually or in a group. But it will give outsized benefits for the spell. It wont force the designers to make weaker monsters, it forces designers to not give low CR creatures interesting abilities that don't really effect the CR but when handed out to a PC for a low level spell may make the spell far too effective.
Do you have some examples of this from the prior versions you could list?
From pervious editions and the monster summoning spells sure. This edition not as much as honestly I don't find many creatures at all in 5e 2024 to have that many interesting abilities. I think their focus was more ease of running than interesting things to fit into your world. In 2014 a lot of the just spellcaster style creatures gave outsized benefits for their CR. And I have seen comments from designers themselves saying these spells impacted their design. So obviously there wont be many examples as they take that into account and designed things not to impact in that way.
Couple quick examples from what we have or recent non "legacy" creatures the sage though for example, one spell gives you access to tongues, sending, see invisibly, locate object etc and 4 of them since the 4th level spell can summon 4 CR 1/2 creatures. It would be a higher level conjure spell but a unicorn for example now comes with word of recall. i think they knew celestials had more abilities like this so conjure celestial from 2014 hit lower CR creatures than Conjure fey and scaled worse. But a unicorn with word of recall a 6th level spell is CR5. And conjure fey a 6th level spell gave access to Cr 6 creatures so if a celestial CR 5 could why not a fey in your design. Succubus/cambion and being able to get off a 8th level version of dominate person. Ghosts with possession, wraith with the ability to create 7 specters. And I'm sure there is some outsized damage exploit people can figure out with 8 low level spell effects from Y creature.
These are all things they have to take into account when creating a new creature if it can be summoned. And when enough creatures have enough abilities the spell starts looking more like a limited wish effect as you in effect have access to any spell or ability that is of X level or lower. Will you one monster manual in, no. But 4 monster books in yeah it can happen.
None of those can be conjured as allies. They are also all > CR 2 so even if they were Fey/Beasts you couldn't conjure one until a level where you could reproduce that effect with a different spell.
Word of Recall requires the spell be primed by an initial casting, meaning it’s entirely within the DMs purview to say the creature doesn’t come pre-loaded, and even if the unicorn has two casts of it you’re still limited to someplace within an hour of the encounter you use it in, assuming you don’t lose concentration first.
For Wraiths, the applicable spell is still in the game, which highlights why the Conjure change looks arbitrary.