I think they mentioned Great Old One has a special Hex? I wonder if the hex upgrades are stuck inside of Hexblade for the moment. I'm definitely going to go through the other patrons come September and figure out some expanded spell lists and adjustment suggeations with all y'all that we can share as examples until wizards prints something.
From their video today it sounds like the 7 play test is pretty close to where they ended up with some change sin things like the spell lists and the celestial sub class. Oh and more invocations than the playtest.
They did not mention hex so I suspect its still a dud of a spell after a few levels. Which is disappointing as hexing people screams warlock imo. I think they could have removed duration scaling from it had it scale in different ways and go no concentration. That way it can't be gimmicked with the short rest but its actually useful to cast post level 4.
I think my Celestial Warlock still has Hex at lvl 9, but it is from the bonus 1st level spell slot from the Shadow Touched feat rather than using Pact Slots. I figure every now and again it might be better to pop off EBs than big spells, so it's nice to have the additional boosting option still available, and even better to not have to use big spells to do something so small.
Given you get your patrons spell list for free your known list does not feel as sparse so I can see people not unlearning it. But using a 5th level slot from pact magic I kind of doubt will happen often outside short rest gimmicks. Which is what I suggest for the 2014 one for those who want to keep it, wake up cast it, short rest over breakfast before the day begins use it until a real spell is appropriate. If you have spells left before a short rest the party is taking, cast it, short rest etc. But yeah if you have a permanent 1st level slot of some kind like pact of the tomes in the 7h play test, or a spell from fey toughed etc it can get some use. But that does not make it a good spell. As a warlock spell it should scale incredibly well imo.(god i hope hunger of hadar now scales) As that is what makes a warlocks casting style different.
If you are going to have 10th level sub class features, invocations etc based around the spell like it is some iconic part of the class, it should not be a dud.
I think they mentioned Great Old One has a special Hex? I wonder if the hex upgrades are stuck inside of Hexblade for the moment. I'm definitely going to go through the other patrons come September and figure out some expanded spell lists and adjustment suggeations with all y'all that we can share as examples until wizards prints something.
My impression was it was the only sub class that got a hex boon. And it is potentially with the right team good enough to maybe make hex worth it. Disadvantage on wisdom saves before the bard or enchanter goes is pretty dang good as a bonus action cast. Doubt I'd want to keep it up or use my 5th level pact slot on it but my 1st level slot from the pact of the tome, sure here and there vs a specific tough adversary that sounds solid. Same for a couple non concentration spells you might know like mass suggestion or feeble mind.
The maths has been done after low level hex is just not optimum, it is a shame I would prefer if the hex spell got some upgrades nothing that makes it so good that forces you to get it but something else to make it worth having after level 4-5
Great old one's new hex is not to be taken lightly. Disadvantage on a saving throw.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I am going to say the Great Old One is one that may still cast it with a higher level slot. Disadvantage on a save with no save is pretty big. Especially now that save or suck spells usually give repeat saves having disadvantage on all of those is huge. Keeping it between rests and focusing on other non-concentration spells like dispel magic and charm person/ charm monster and synaptic static could be good. It does have anti-synergy with summon shadow spawn, but mostly there is definitely reason for a GOO lock to cast hex at 5th level.
Sure but you can't use that disadvantage very well yourself, there just are not that many non concentration spells that they can use themselves with it. You need to work it with a teammate who not only has the capabilities to cast those spells but chooses to at the right time. I've seen a lot of set up0s fall flat when one person didn't want to or couldn't do the action that was set up, needing to cast healing word or something instead. And even then it needs to pan out to be better than for example when you and a bard team up, you cast it, they cast fear than when you and the bard cast fear. In a narrow range of singular boss monster it may pan out as maybe two hold monsters is worse than hex/hold monster or whatever. Given its duration, maybe it pans out to be worth it. But 3rd-5th level spells have some pretty big effects.
Sure but you can't use that disadvantage very well yourself, there just are not that many non concentration spells that they can use themselves with it. You need to work it with a teammate who not only has the capabilities to cast those spells but chooses to at the right time. I've seen a lot of set up0s fall flat when one person didn't want to or couldn't do the action that was set up, needing to cast healing word or something instead. And even then it needs to pan out to be better than for example when you and a bard team up, you cast it, they cast fear than when you and the bard cast fear. In a narrow range of singular boss monster it may pan out as maybe two hold monsters is worse than hex/hold monster or whatever. Given its duration, maybe it pans out to be worth it. But 3rd-5th level spells have some pretty big effects.
In general yes, but that is also why we love Warlock. This is the case for most of their spells, more than half the list is going to be spells that are good under specific circumstances and won't be used unless we find ourselves under those circumstances. Much of the list is going to be dependent on party make up and what the party needs. Then we do have spells that would work with hex including the charm spells. All of this still comes alongside the usual benefits of hex. If you are going to do it you and your party need to lean into it. If they aren't maybe have it as a GOO lock in the back pocket, but don't rely on it. That is all I am saying, if you and the party lean heavily into it than it can be a lot more effective.
I've said it before but I think, as with the Ranger's Hunter's Mark, Hex should be a non-Concentration class feature resource (not a spell) that scales with levels in the class and is modified by Subclass. Kinda like Channel Divinity.
E.g. Hex (level 1 class feature): 2/Long Rest (maybe recover 1 on Short Rest?), as a Bonus Action you place a Hex on a creature you can see within 90ft. Until the creature dies, you use this feature again, or a Remove Curse spell is used, the target suffers Disadvantage on all ability checks and 1/turn you can deal 1d6 additional damage to any attack you make that hits the target. At higher levels you can affect more creatures with each use (2 at 5th, 3 at 10th, etc). Your Subclass adds an additional effect to Hexed creatures (e.g. GOO Disadvantage on a save).
Sure but you can't use that disadvantage very well yourself, there just are not that many non concentration spells that they can use themselves with it.
Gosh! A social collaborative game has features in it that are best used to work together with your team mates? What is the world coming to?
Hex is still useful even once you get 4th and 5th level spells, it just isn't universally useful which is a good thing. Any spell that is universally better than other spells is bad for the game because it makes all other spells a trap choice. At 10th level, if you are facing a singular boss monster like a dragon, then Hex is probably still your best choice. The ability to impose DisAdv on an ability check can be useful for:
imposing DisAdv on an enemy caster's attempts to counterspell/dispel magic
imposing DisAdv on a flying enemy's grapple escape to enable your melee teammates to grapple & hold the enemy to the ground.
imposing DisAdv on checks against Telekinesis, Maze, and illusions.
But otherwise an extra 6.8 damage per round with no save is still respectable when facing enemies with Magic Resistance / Legendary Resistance.
Sure but you can't use that disadvantage very well yourself, there just are not that many non concentration spells that they can use themselves with it.
Gosh! A social collaborative game has features in it that are best used to work together with your team mates? What is the world coming to?
well the update came out and this is a very good change
"none of the 2024 Player’s Handbook Eldritch Invocations carry the "using a Warlock spell slot" description" bestow curse, polymorph, slow, etc Thank the patrons!
Meh, it just means if you want those spells you'll need to learn them off the class list; the updated patron list probably offsets it in raw numbers of spells known, but it arguably makes it harder to customize into those specific spells that you used to spend an invocation on instead. Not a bad change, but it's more lateral than anything else.
well the update came out and this is a very good change
"none of the 2024 Player’s Handbook Eldritch Invocations carry the "using a Warlock spell slot" description" bestow curse, polymorph, slow, etc Thank the patrons!
Sad to see that talisman was not included.
But all changes seem really strong.
I would have even understood if those invocations were updated into "May cast once per long rest without using a pact slot, but may be used again by expending one." But personally I think all the ones that required the use of a pact slot, and were still limited to once per long rest were, well, pretty poor design.
well the update came out and this is a very good change
"none of the 2024 Player’s Handbook Eldritch Invocations carry the "using a Warlock spell slot" description" bestow curse, polymorph, slow, etc Thank the patrons!
Sad to see that talisman was not included.
But all changes seem really strong.
I would have even understood if those invocations were updated into "May cast once per long rest without using a pact slot, but may be used again by expending one." But personally I think all the ones that required the use of a pact slot, and were still limited to once per long rest were, well, pretty poor design.
for spells with a duration of one hour or less i agree. With animate dead, eh maybe not. Anything with over a one hour duration would need to be very closely looked at given the nature of pact slots.
Sounds like Chain was moved down to level 1 as well, so it doesn't have to live as a second class citizen behind blade and tome.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Sounds like Chain was moved down to level 1 as well, so it doesn't have to live as a second class citizen behind blade and tome.
I just wish they had done something to give a mechanical reason for something other than imp, maybe the magic cat is the next imp. But really everything else is just not mechanically on imps level currently. That being said as a invocation if I wasn't planning on really diving into it, just take the pact and stop its not a big deal its just a role playing choice.
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I think they mentioned Great Old One has a special Hex? I wonder if the hex upgrades are stuck inside of Hexblade for the moment. I'm definitely going to go through the other patrons come September and figure out some expanded spell lists and adjustment suggeations with all y'all that we can share as examples until wizards prints something.
Given you get your patrons spell list for free your known list does not feel as sparse so I can see people not unlearning it. But using a 5th level slot from pact magic I kind of doubt will happen often outside short rest gimmicks. Which is what I suggest for the 2014 one for those who want to keep it, wake up cast it, short rest over breakfast before the day begins use it until a real spell is appropriate. If you have spells left before a short rest the party is taking, cast it, short rest etc. But yeah if you have a permanent 1st level slot of some kind like pact of the tomes in the 7h play test, or a spell from fey toughed etc it can get some use. But that does not make it a good spell. As a warlock spell it should scale incredibly well imo.(god i hope hunger of hadar now scales) As that is what makes a warlocks casting style different.
If you are going to have 10th level sub class features, invocations etc based around the spell like it is some iconic part of the class, it should not be a dud.
My impression was it was the only sub class that got a hex boon. And it is potentially with the right team good enough to maybe make hex worth it. Disadvantage on wisdom saves before the bard or enchanter goes is pretty dang good as a bonus action cast. Doubt I'd want to keep it up or use my 5th level pact slot on it but my 1st level slot from the pact of the tome, sure here and there vs a specific tough adversary that sounds solid. Same for a couple non concentration spells you might know like mass suggestion or feeble mind.
The maths has been done after low level hex is just not optimum, it is a shame I would prefer if the hex spell got some upgrades nothing that makes it so good that forces you to get it but something else to make it worth having after level 4-5
Great old one's new hex is not to be taken lightly. Disadvantage on a saving throw.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I am going to say the Great Old One is one that may still cast it with a higher level slot. Disadvantage on a save with no save is pretty big. Especially now that save or suck spells usually give repeat saves having disadvantage on all of those is huge. Keeping it between rests and focusing on other non-concentration spells like dispel magic and charm person/ charm monster and synaptic static could be good. It does have anti-synergy with summon shadow spawn, but mostly there is definitely reason for a GOO lock to cast hex at 5th level.
Sure but you can't use that disadvantage very well yourself, there just are not that many non concentration spells that they can use themselves with it. You need to work it with a teammate who not only has the capabilities to cast those spells but chooses to at the right time. I've seen a lot of set up0s fall flat when one person didn't want to or couldn't do the action that was set up, needing to cast healing word or something instead. And even then it needs to pan out to be better than for example when you and a bard team up, you cast it, they cast fear than when you and the bard cast fear. In a narrow range of singular boss monster it may pan out as maybe two hold monsters is worse than hex/hold monster or whatever. Given its duration, maybe it pans out to be worth it. But 3rd-5th level spells have some pretty big effects.
In general yes, but that is also why we love Warlock. This is the case for most of their spells, more than half the list is going to be spells that are good under specific circumstances and won't be used unless we find ourselves under those circumstances. Much of the list is going to be dependent on party make up and what the party needs. Then we do have spells that would work with hex including the charm spells. All of this still comes alongside the usual benefits of hex. If you are going to do it you and your party need to lean into it. If they aren't maybe have it as a GOO lock in the back pocket, but don't rely on it. That is all I am saying, if you and the party lean heavily into it than it can be a lot more effective.
I guess, but I'd like a level 10 sub class ability to be more generally effective.
I agree. It feels very counter to a lot of earlier stuff. Especially the other concentration spells on the goo list.
I've said it before but I think, as with the Ranger's Hunter's Mark, Hex should be a non-Concentration class feature resource (not a spell) that scales with levels in the class and is modified by Subclass. Kinda like Channel Divinity.
E.g. Hex (level 1 class feature): 2/Long Rest (maybe recover 1 on Short Rest?), as a Bonus Action you place a Hex on a creature you can see within 90ft. Until the creature dies, you use this feature again, or a Remove Curse spell is used, the target suffers Disadvantage on all ability checks and 1/turn you can deal 1d6 additional damage to any attack you make that hits the target. At higher levels you can affect more creatures with each use (2 at 5th, 3 at 10th, etc). Your Subclass adds an additional effect to Hexed creatures (e.g. GOO Disadvantage on a save).
Gosh! A social collaborative game has features in it that are best used to work together with your team mates? What is the world coming to?
Hex is still useful even once you get 4th and 5th level spells, it just isn't universally useful which is a good thing. Any spell that is universally better than other spells is bad for the game because it makes all other spells a trap choice. At 10th level, if you are facing a singular boss monster like a dragon, then Hex is probably still your best choice. The ability to impose DisAdv on an ability check can be useful for:
But otherwise an extra 6.8 damage per round with no save is still respectable when facing enemies with Magic Resistance / Legendary Resistance.
Gosh, what mindless snark.
well the update came out and this is a very good change
"none of the 2024 Player’s Handbook Eldritch Invocations carry the "using a Warlock spell slot" description"
bestow curse, polymorph, slow, etc
Thank the patrons!
Sad to see that talisman was not included.
But all changes seem really strong.
Meh, it just means if you want those spells you'll need to learn them off the class list; the updated patron list probably offsets it in raw numbers of spells known, but it arguably makes it harder to customize into those specific spells that you used to spend an invocation on instead. Not a bad change, but it's more lateral than anything else.
I would have even understood if those invocations were updated into "May cast once per long rest without using a pact slot, but may be used again by expending one." But personally I think all the ones that required the use of a pact slot, and were still limited to once per long rest were, well, pretty poor design.
for spells with a duration of one hour or less i agree. With animate dead, eh maybe not. Anything with over a one hour duration would need to be very closely looked at given the nature of pact slots.
Sounds like Chain was moved down to level 1 as well, so it doesn't have to live as a second class citizen behind blade and tome.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I just wish they had done something to give a mechanical reason for something other than imp, maybe the magic cat is the next imp. But really everything else is just not mechanically on imps level currently. That being said as a invocation if I wasn't planning on really diving into it, just take the pact and stop its not a big deal its just a role playing choice.